Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 53: Bait and Switch and Informing Your Manager

Episode Date: March 29, 2017

Dave and Jamison answer these questions: I was hired for one thing, but ended up doing something very different that I don’t enjoy. What do I do? How do I tell my manager that I’m moving into management on another team?

It takes more than great code to be a great engineer. This is the Soft Skills Engineering Podcast. I'm your host, Dave Smith. I'm your host, Jameson Dance. Soft Skills Engineering is a weekly advice podcast where you give the questions and we give the answers. That was so smooth. Like butter.

Should we dive into it? Yeah. I don't think we have any announcements. Let's just read a question. So how about I read it? I think that's acceptable. Okay, motion approved. This is from a listener named Shang.

I have been at my current company for about a year and a half. I was brought on board to work on re-engineering some outdated FoxPro claims processing infrastructure. Instead, I was tasked with a couple of small internal support applications. During the last year, I've also witnessed a great deal of politics. Like, did you win an election? We all have. Sounds great. We all witnessed a lot of politics this year.

That's true. I asked about the original projects, but kept getting answers that seemed random, and i was nowhere near the task i was brought on to do my question is what is your suggestion for my situation well first of all avoid witnessing politics it's never fun yeah uh fox pro so do you know what fox pro is dave i think is that like starfox like a sequel they needed someone to beat this level on the video game i could see some freshly funded silicon valley startup hiring people that way like can you beat this game all right you're hired because it means that you'll do well in the nerf wars that we regularly have at the office

culture fit check check the whiteboard interview process is they draw a bullseye on the whiteboard you have to shoot it with a nerf and then you hit it with the nerf gun it turns out this is as effective as normal interview yeah um yeah i i know fox pro means like old clunky stuff but that's about all i know i think i think it's like in the realm of file maker and microsoft access like from yesteryear yeah microsoft proprietary software stuff i think access is still around though yeah totally still around fox pro i googled it and the last release was 2007 which is still pretty young well it's like 400 javascript framework generations behind but not like the hot new tech that you are excited

to be working in so i could see how the the position of come in and bring us to something new from this old clunky thing you know this is this is a theme that i we keep hearing people ask this question or sorry questions that have this theme and i've seen this as well um as i watch people interview um who where i'm already hired and i'm like on the interview panel and i hear my co-workers mention like the coolest project they could possibly imagine and i think no one's working on that and that's not on the roadmap for months like why are you why are you holding out this carrot like that but you know whatever it takes to close the deal yeah it does seem super common to to sell people in interviews and then you get to there yeah you get there and your job

is like move this button to the left a little bit yeah no wait a little bit more no wait move it a little bit to the right um yep but but the interview was like build an ai to design interactive uis based on demographic big data cloud serverless exactly yeah exactly and sometimes it's even more specific than that it's like we think that if we're successful we can do x and x is like this really cool thing but it's like x is like five years out you know yeah that that seems less uh less malicious to me because part of especially if it's a startup part of their job is to have this like giant earth shattering vision and you kind of know like yeah but first we have to get customers to make it to that role and but but the specific sales pitch of we work with this list of

cool technologies and then you get there and that's like the list of stuff that you see in google searches and then scroll past to get to your actual problem then that that seems a little more actively bad yeah yeah so i think what's happening here is you got this interview and it was like well we have this old fox pro system we really need to re-engineer it and then it's like oh cool i could do that and they're like yeah yeah you could do that if you were hired theoretically yeah yeah theoretically that sounds great we'd love it if someone came in and did that in addition to all this other work that they need to do first i think that when it comes to re-engineering stuff uh that can be like it's really hard to let the new engineer do that you

know it's like we have this system it's like 10 years old lots of cruft it's built up over a lot of generations of engineers why don't we just take the new person and have them rebuild it from scratch that's pretty as far as a prestige thing like they haven't paid their dues yet so they don't get to work on the cool new thing or no i wasn't thinking in those terms but i can see how you might how someone might think that way i was thinking more like they just don't have enough context to rebuild a system to cover all the requirements that have evolved over like a decade in this case yeah this is kind of funny because um i'm literally doing this exact thing right now for a client i'm i'm working with a software company i am helping them hire a team to rebuild

and outdated system and i i i don't know i'm totally selling people on it right because it's cool it's fun to come into a greenfield project and i have all these reasons why it's actually different this time and it will actually happen but i mean there's still a risk that the company could wildly pivot i guess and say like actually we're okay with the old thing yeah there are a lot of reasons why i'm i'm incredibly confident that won't happen but i still feel when i'm pitching people i still feel this little voice in my head that's like everyone says this and most of the time it's not true come rewrite everything like that never happens but why don't we answer two questions one is how could they avoid getting in this situation and

the other one is how do they get out of it does that sound okay totally so how yeah how would you avoid uh ending up in this place where you're hired for one thing and then you find out there's lots of politics and you have to get shuffled onto these projects you don't love and the thing you end up hired for the thing you were hired for is just nowhere in sight i think this is actually really really hard to do but with some good questions you can get there and i think the the question that was probably asked in this interview was what what am i going to work on and the answer was oh we're going to re-architect this thing it's going to be really cool but a better question could be what did your team deliver most recently like tell me about the

last three deliveries your team did yep what was it and if the answer is actually working on exactly because like the answer to what are you going to work on in the future is really easy to speculate on but the answer to what did you work on is like super concrete and probably a hundred percent more representative of what you will work on in your near future yeah that's why i'm a fan of pair programming in interviews because you get to see what people are doing for their job and if they're selling you on this vision and then they just are doing something in their day-to-day

that's not quite that vision, then you find out. There's not an easy way to hide that unless they like pull out the new project every time they interview someone to pair program on, which makes progress with every interview. Yeah, I literally only work on this when I'm pair programming with interview candidates.

maybe that's a question on your checklist okay i see you're editing this file when was the last time you edited this file and when was your last interview gotta defend against that but the the politics thing how would you how would you get a feel for that so every company has politics i think like any group of two or more human beings is going to have some amount of politics maybe you could just ask the question tell me about your company politics i don't know i've actually i've actually never asked about this at a company before yeah how would you even ask about it i mean what are you trying to suss out when you're talking about politics is it like i don't know when i hear politics i imagine some of it is like kind of cutthroat self-serving

career maneuvering where you're doing things to sabotage other people to advance yourself that seems horrible some of it is just like you said if there are if there's marketing and there's products and they're in different organizations they're going to have different priorities and they're going to kind of like jockey to see who gets to ask engineering to do what and what's the order and i i could see that relationship being tricky and that could get kind of political but you're gonna have to figure out how to allocate that work somehow i think it's i think it's really really hard in an interview if not impossible to identify the politics it takes me months on the job before i start to even notice the politics that are that are like underpinning

things you know they're so subtle yeah maybe this is a different question then how do you get a feel for the politics because i yeah that could be a huge deal breaker okay maybe we will table that part then we don't know work it's not possible build a time machine i think it has to be possible if you have friends that work there that's great but oh yeah yeah yeah that's a cop out answer i mean yeah if you had friends that work there you probably already have answers to a lot of these questions yeah exactly you would probably know that they're not working on updating the fox pro product exactly okay well so i don't know i think you might just have to work there that's at least that's all i've done that feels unsatisfying to me it is it's a big risk changing

jobs for that reason yeah the bigger the bigger the company the more you have to worry about it i think um another thing another quick feel i've heard this consistently from people who work at family-owned companies have you ever done that before uh yes there's all kinds of politics if you're in the family or not you know yeah so that's that's i think a big red flag that you should investigate but then yeah i think i think most companies especially if they're very young like if you if the company's only like less than a year old there is unlikely to have developed significant politics that are going to destroy it or make your job miserable yeah i'm gonna think about this and then maybe i'll like yeah maybe maybe i'll have stuff to say later because this

is a really interesting topic but i have nothing right now so let's let's continue so what do they do now what does shang do now i actually wonder if i was wondering this out loud before the show with jameson but i wonder if this question is being asked kind of maybe as asking permission to quit you know like can is this a situation that i would feel okay quitting from because that's the first most obvious simple answer it's like the big hammer that you can get all the nails with yeah um you know get me out of here i give you permission i pass you the token of quitting permission the ceremonious token yeah yeah this i mean unless you want to try and enact organizational change bailing is an easy way out that in today's climate has uh not enormous downsides i guess it

depends on where you are in your career and where you are in the market i this listener has been at the job for a year and a half um it's probably not going to be a big problem is my guess yeah but i mean maybe they live in a non-tech hub area maybe yeah maybe they don't really know how they would go about getting another job i think our advice of quit your job and get a new one and everything will be fine implicitly assumes and it'll be easy to get a new job and for some people that might not be totally true but maybe they live in a thriving fox pro metropolis yeah exactly maybe fox pro is the only game in town so um i would say if you're thinking about quitting i would pause that conversation and go sit down and have a very frank conversation with your manager

it sounds like you've tried to have this conversation and you keep getting these like half-hearted crappy excuses for why you're not doing what you were promised you could do and i think you can come right out and in a non-threatening non-blackmail way say i really want to work on this project and not being able to work on it is making it harder to stay here and making other options look really attractive you know that and that's going to ruffle some feathers maybe um but you know worst case scenario is you find out that you need to quit because it's never going to happen yeah manager you know management is just like so put off by that question that uh that you need to quit or they might say oh wow he's really serious let's you know let's

let's give him the chance yeah i guess i'm totally ignoring a whole class of solutions to this problem which is if they're not doing it there's some there's some reason why um and and one approach to that is to make the case to the business that it is the right thing to update this like if they're just trying to update it because it's old and no one wants to work in fox pro if it works fine um management might look at that and say like okay the engineers will be happier but also they'll be kind of going backwards and starting over and i don't know that that's that's part of why i mentioned the client i'm working with right now why this is actually happening here is because there's very compelling business facing reasons why um

rebuilding the system is important and in the best interest of the company so everyone is bought in like the ceo wants it to happen he doesn't see it as like oh these developers are just whining about the code or whatever and it's it's like no he wants to get these specific outcomes which will happen from re-architecting the system so if if you want to go into sales mode you can try and make the case that this will be better for the company and therefore you should let me do it um if that yeah if that doesn't work then i agree with dave this this feels like it feels like on average a job you would get could be better than this does that make sense i think so there's this thing in sports statistics called value over replacement player and it's basically how much

better is this thing than like your average professional player if we just went out and got a random player uh would we be likely to have a better player than what then than what we have right now i think that same thing can apply to jobs where if you just like went out and got a job so like if the answer is yes you you bail that's one way to look at it yeah i mean there's other stuff that goes into it too but but it feels to me like this this is uh below average of random tech job so if you just go and get a different job you'd be better off no that's cool there you go approved with science and statistics yep and sports sports for the win cool has the question been answered it definitely there was definitely

answers all right i mean i mean the answers were tangible i felt them this is from listener michael and he says i'm a long time developer and have been considering asking to move to one of a more managerial role like project manager or product owner should i decide to do this is it more proper to talk to my current manager or the manager that i'd be reporting to first what is the proper protocol that always makes me think of that office episode where um michael wants to declare bankruptcy so he just like stands up in the middle of the office and goes i declare bankruptcy like the protocols you just say i am a project manager and then you are like he-man i have the power there you go that's the protocol by the power of scrum yeah lightning strikes you

huh so are is is this more i can't tell if this is asking like what's the right way to make this happen or what's the right way to avoid ruffling feathers yeah well i think the question might be more about like is there a generally accepted practice for when you want to basically leave your manager's team and become either a peer to them or go to a different organization should you talk to them first or should you just go make it happen yeah like is there a generally accepted etiquette like the small fork on the inside the tradition is you flip it around in your fingers for a little bit and then spin it up in the air and then it stabs down into the

lobster and then you can start eating i actually have no idea what you're talking about but that I may have learned etiquette from pirates. Or like if you eat a really good steak and you're in a Western state in the United States, it's traditional to draw your six shooter in the air and shoot it a couple of times and shout like rootin' tootin' good. Yes, that kind of etiquette. That's exactly what we're talking about. Okay.

I'm in the correct frame of mind now. Yeah, yeah, you are. i think it's it's good that you are concerned with this because i know um from experience as someone leading a team it feels bad to have people want to leave your team it feels like a rejection of you especially if they want to go to some other team i've i've felt in the past like oh i'm the lame team and they're gonna go to the cool team and and yeah through no uh i'm pretty sure those are all unfounded reasons but it just it can feel bad to have someone say hey i'd like to not yeah work with you anymore yeah it's like a breakup yeah kind of yeah and then then you stand up

underneath their window with a boombox in your hands play music and try and get them to come back to you you're a little young for that reference jameson yeah i've actually never seen that movie i've just seen a lot of memes about it i should see it now uh yeah so i i don't know that the order matters but i think it it if you do it it's important to make clear to the manager hey i'm not i'm not leaving this team because i hate it or because there's some cool team that will be more fun and you're the dumb boring team it's because i want to change roles a little bit and there's there's another place where i can do that role and that might prevent some hurt feelings unless it is because you hate their team and you don't like them and

You want to be on the more fun team. Then I don't know what you do. Well, in that case, I think you need to keep that a secret. That's true. You're going to stay at the company and you will be working with these people again. It's a small world, especially in one company. So this needs to be about your personal development and desires. Like I want to go into product ownership or project management.

It's what I want to do. It's what I think I'm good at. It's where my passions lie. And if you trust your manager to help you with that, then sit down with him or her and say that. say, I want to go into this. What, you know, what opportunities do I have? Give them a chance to help you out before you totally write it off. But if they, if you don't trust them and you think they might undermine the process, then it might be better just to weasel your way right on out of there and go straight to the other manager. Yeah. We just talked about politics with the

last question and it seems like this could involve some politics depending on the company where oh yeah you're i don't know it's like a power struggle between the two managers who gets this person who gets michael on their team and yep you get to you're just a pawn in a political maneuver yeah um so so are you saying it the protocol is it doesn't matter what order you talk to them in or or the or you do need to talk to your own manager first i i think the maximum courtesy protocol like if your protocol is tuned for courtesy then you would go to your own manager first yeah so it sounds like michael already has another manager in mind who he would be or wants to be working with what if your manager is like great yeah be the product manager

on this team you're like uh actually you're like uh it's actually it's you i'm gonna leave yeah so that that could get tricky i absolutely could you okay so here's what you do you say i've been wanting to be a product manager i've been thinking about this this other job on this other team it seems really exciting they have a need what do you think you know and give them a chance to respond um if you're worried that they might say great you're a product manager on my team yay verily let it be done now yeah you know it could really backfire yeah yeah that's true so you make it clear that there's already a different place in mind. That makes sense. Now, one thing that could be important in a situation like this is maybe you are too indispensable and maybe that's why

you're feeling like, oh no, should I talk to my manager first? Maybe there's a worry that the work you're doing on your team is hard to replace and that the other members of your team don't know how to do your work. In which case, it might be good to spend some time first doing some knowledge sharing and and ramping up the people on your team so that when you leave it doesn't leave a gaping hole because if there's going to be a gaping hole and your manager's nervous about that he could very well stymie your your process yeah i also think the proper protocol could be very heavily dependent on the company yeah i mean i know some companies have established processes for changing teams that are like very rigorously followed and there has to be an opening on the

other team and there has to be someone in place already to fill the spot that you will leave on your team and yeah so i don't there might be stuff you would follow there already but i have heard of a company where if you wanted to transfer to another team you were allowed to secretly interview with that team and then they could make you an offer to transfer and then you could transfer and your manager basically knew nothing about it until the very end and i've also heard that this company recently changed protocol so that as soon as you initiate that process with another manager your manager is automatically notified so i think that that might be an indication that it's a good idea to talk to your manager first like this company

and maybe that this company is indicative of like a generally accepted social contract and also i think the automatic notification would be the worst way to find out well i guess the real worst way would be someone doesn't show up on your team and shows up on another team one day but the second worst way is like you get an email that's like michael has begun trying to bail on you um yeah yeah you don't want that so michael has initiated the breakup process commence shaming yeah yeah okay so i started off saying it doesn't matter i think you've convinced me that it's good to talk to your own manager first well with a little asterisk that i'm assuming the manager of the team you'd be moving to had knows something about this because otherwise how would you know

that who they would be even or i don't know so so maybe you have some kind of conversation about like hey i i think this would be interesting i'll see if i can make it happen but it's a very preliminary it's not like i like you said i declare i am now the product manager of this team you just yeah indicate you're interested then you have the frank conversation with your current manager yes like try to get buy-in because news travels fast also there's a good chance that that managers will share that information before you can get back to your manager so you might want to just broach the first conversation with the other manager more as curiosity like hey you have some product managers what do they do you know do you have any openings

just curious just curious yeah yeah i'm trying to think i think i've had there was one time at a job where i changed teams and i i don't remember how i did it but knowing myself back then i probably didn't talk to my manager and say like hey i'm thinking of going this to this other team yeah uh i'm pretty sure i just like bailed one day there weren't you think there weren't any negative repercussions that i know of but i i also think i could have handled that in a more mature way this company manager like hey why why is jameson sitting on the other side of the building yeah what's he doing over there so the people on the team i moved to were like come over come over

were like totally recruiting me and then i just like did one day uh without clearing it or letting people know there was also kind of this culture of like every few months there'd be this giant scrum like rugby scrum where everyone just kind of dives into this dust pile and teams just reshuffle and reform and then it separates and there's like new people on all the teams so it wasn't that outrageous but but i still think i could have handled it better so i'm poking a little fun at jameson because the last two jobs he quit he quit before he even had a new job lined up yeah that's true you know that's this is kind of in the character for you kind of my style yeah yeah yeah sometimes i just like shake my life and throw it up in the air and then

then it lands and then i figure out all your life things into a into a dust pile yeah see what comes out yep cool well no there are worse life strategies i'll tell you that yeah again also this would not work very well without a lot of a lot of luck and a lot of privilege of like industry and i don't know like i'm pretty sure you can't just like throw your life up in the air and shake it if you work at walmart and then have good things happen like it's oh man that's true it's an interesting position to be in to have the freedom to do that yeah yes very much so yeah i'm glad i'm glad you acknowledge that because it's true yeah well good luck michael yeah i hope this advice helps you if you also i can't speak english today

if you listener want to be helped like michael and shang have been helped today okay maybe that's not the strongest pitch but anyways if you want to be helped like these people have been helped uh what what should they do dave they should go to softskills.audio in their favorite web browser on their favorite device and then fill out the form where it says ask a question and you can submit it anonymously or non-anonymously basically any level anonymously is that the opposite of anonymous anonymous yeah take off the a yeah i think that's right cool and go ahead and fill out that form and send it to us you can also tweet us at soft skills eng we've gotten so many lovely tweets from people and lots of direct messages from people saying

very nice things like hey i just got a huge raise thanks to taking your advice which was much better than the hey i just got fired thanks for taking your advice yeah that's good to hear also i want to point out that we recently just crossed our first soft skills engineering podcast birthday it's been one year yeah it has happy birthday believe it dave it's my birthday today you're kidding me my birthday was last week what it's so serendipitous well i'm sorry i didn't wish you happy birthday then happy birthday now uh happy birthday soft skills engineering yes to you and the podcast thank you thank you for being with us this whole year are you talking to the podcast or to listeners or i think i was i'm

talking to anyone who can hear my voice even you jameson okay cool you're welcome uh i think that means we're done we'll catch you next week yep see ya