Soft Skills Engineering - Episode 69: A Know-It-All Lead and Selling Your Boss on Remote Work

Episode Date: July 21, 2017

Jamison and Dave answer these questions: My supervisor is a know-it-all who needs to be the smartest person in the room. How do I deal with it? I want to move to another city and work remotely. How do I convince my boss to let me?

It takes more than great code to be a great engineer. This is episode 69 of the Soft Skills Engineering Podcast. I'm your host, Jameson Dance. I'm your host, Dave Smith. And this is the podcast where we talk about all of your non-technical questions about mostly technical fields like software development. Yep. No more words go here.

uh we have some good uh comments from listeners about the the stuff we said about graduate school which is fantastic because we don't dave and i haven't been to grad school uh so i've been inside no no i've been inside one okay that yeah that's i had lunch in a grad school cafeteria a few weeks ago yeah you're right i have been to harvard um i rode my bike through harvard today it's that easy so it's like you know how in races they have those tables set up where you just like grab a thing of water off off the table as you're going by it's like that but with degrees you just like blasted through picked up your masters on my bike tomorrow you'll pick up your phd on my way home actually okay on your way home so this was jameson is referring to episode 67 if

you want to pause and go back uh but we made some we expressed some opinions about graduate school and we got some great feedback from a couple of listeners we'd like to share that with you do you want to read the first one oh yes i will uh this comes from a listener named matt matt says hi jamison and dave in the most recent episode loved it as always he actually wrote that thanks matt you oh matt you shared your thoughts about getting a master's degree and whether or not it's a valuable career move while i generally agree with your perspective that a master's degree usually doesn't matter, my experience was quite different. I was an intern at my first job just before starting my master's program. At the end of the summer, the company made an offer for full-time

work. As part of the offer, I was to work full-time the following summer between my two master's academic years at salary X. Upon completion of my degree the following summer, I would return again for the full-time work at a salary that was 12% higher than salary X. Conditioned upon my successful completion of the degree. Furthermore, the company paid my master's tuition. So it would appear that that particular company was very interested and invested in graduate level education, even though my master's degree was in information systems and not computer science. Anyway, if this perspective is useful, feel free to share it on the air. Thanks for your great work and funny jokes. Soft Skills is one of my favorite podcasts. Thanks, Matt.

All right. Yeah, I wish we could talk to Max. I have so many questions about this. First of all, that's awesome that it that it worked out really well for you i want to know if if you're using the thing you studied for your master's degree or is it just the act of getting a master's degree was the company interested in you having a master's degree or was it interested in like you working there and getting a master's degree would it would help you stay there i didn't phrase that right and what if you so the his bat matt's bachelor's degree was in information systems what if his bachelor's had been in computer science would the company still want them want him to get a master's you know like did that play into it i don't think he says what his bachelor's was

no he did no he says he got his master's in information systems oh my bad i read that out loud that means you don't have the part of your brain available that understands stuff that's right because reading it out loud takes up all of my brain yeah i just say words and my brain is all focused on not saying the wrong words and even then it can't usually do that okay that that's very interesting so they the company paid for a master's degree in information systems and we don't know what the bachelor's was it was probably art why do you say that well maybe art history okay i don't know i'm just teasing okay cool well anyway i'm i'm yeah i'm glad that worked out for you i would also love to know how big of a company this is i feel like this is probably a larger

company actually i know the company size it was uh about 50 engineers maybe 100 people 200 people total oh wow that's smaller than i would have expected yeah it is huh interesting cool well that's that's good perspective that i did not have cool you want to read our next comment okay this is from an anonymous listener i love the show you know what uh we do edit these comments and we may or may not add superlatives about how awesome we are to all of them just kidding this is real i love the show in your recent episode you were talking about the value of a graduate degree i'd like to share my experience i have a master's degree and a phd after finishing my phd i found it very difficult to get a job many employers told me flat out they would never hire anyone with a phd

because they can't do practical work and have their head in the clouds all the time um which is so hot right now what with aws yeah the cloud digital ocean yeah like heading the clouds that that screams money i eventually got a job as a web developer and concluded that my graduate degrees were a waste of time however last year after i'd been working for 10 years as a professional software developer i got a job with an ai startup with a 50 increase in salary breaking past a salary ceiling that i had hit in the web development world and an opportunity to work on really exciting technology with a great team my phd was instrumental in getting the job more specifically the combination of practical software engineering skills and the ability to read understand and apply scientific

papers was what the investors backing the startup were looking for indeed we require at least a master's degree for any job applicant as without that they would be lost in understanding the work that we are doing so anyway that might be helpful to some people keep up the great podcast wow cool story yeah yeah and uh pretty consistent all it took all it took was 17 years that's right just seven years to get a master's and a phd and 10 more years of practical software development work and boom ai startup it's that easy but this is this is actually quite consistent with the comments you and i made uh in episode 67 where we were talking about how this machine learning craze that's really picking up recently seems to be geared towards higher education or people who

have degree advanced degrees for sure yeah and this is like a poster boy story i have dabbled in it a little bit and i think i know enough about it to know that i would be able to be like a grunt implementing some stuff i'd be like the code monkey version of a machine learning developer you know where like someone with a phd tells me what to do and then i do it but if anything weird goes wrong i'm stymied it so you're you're the developer that has to like strip white space off of the big data ingest process yeah yeah yeah i just write a lot of pearl scripts and hand the results back to someone with a phd a 50 salary increase that's awesome that's great that's big yeah i think this also feels like a a market thing too i mean i think if ai and

machine learning was not exploding it might they they might still just be a web developer oh absolutely i mean 10 years right 10 years of that um the listener says that there was a ceiling right that after 10 years it just couldn't really break through but boom overnight this machine learning craze and suddenly 50 percent raise but it is interesting in that i think you could probably well i don't know you might be able to get a phd planning on working in in this field now in a way that you wouldn't have been able to 15 years ago whenever whenever this listener got their phd yep um and one of the interesting things about machine learning and ai is that it doesn't seem to matter what what your phd was in right like you could be focused on chemistry or physics

or bioinformatics and then suddenly you are a plausible candidate for an engineering position working in machine learning and i really oh yeah like we at my last job we employed three or four data scientists who had phds in all kinds of crazy fields they i mean they all have to have a pretty strong math background though absolutely like phd in art history maybe not but basically a science phd unless you're working on the deep mind stuff that is generating art from other similar art and then it might actually be super useful maybe maybe yeah that's interesting i i assumed that it was all just cs phds but you're saying that someone in a science field who i mean they know how to program and then they know enough math to be able to decipher the the ai papers i i think that's

what it comes down to or they don't know how to program very well actually um i don't think knowing how to program is necessarily a requirement in this listener's case it turned out to be a match made in heaven right phd background 10 years of practical software development experience yeah really solid developer plus someone who can who can understand what on earth a recurrent neural network even means exactly but most of the machine learning scientists that i know and i know a fair bit they don't consider themselves developers yeah uh have you heard that phrase about a data scientist where there's someone who knows less math than uh than a real scientist and is a worse developer than a real developer but they make more money than both of them yeah yeah

yep yeah it's kind of that combination of skills anyways cool that sounds like it worked out really well for you also so both of these are i don't know if they counter our points or not actually because we did kind of say that phds are great for this advanced work well i think one of the core tenets of this podcast is that we are never wrong so it would be impossible for them to counter our points that's true um and we can edit these before we post them so we'll just add a little just as dave and jameson predicted to the end of all of them yep awesome thank you so much for your comment cool uh should we read our first question yeah my turn yes okay this one comes from an anonymous listener as well uh who writes how do i deal with a supervisor who has the need to be

important. After four months in my new job as a junior full-stack developer in a small startup, I have come to understand that my supervisor needs to feel important and be the smartest person in the room. When I ask a question, he begins answering about something totally different and starts using technical words that sometimes I think don't even exist. I have tried to explain in a nice way that usually when I ask about something, he starts talking about other things that are not relative to the question, but the two times i've nicely tried this have simply worsened the situation it is making me look super bad in the office i want to leave my job but i'm afraid i will simply find someone

like this in my next job as well maybe the same person will quit at the same time and follow you to the new job what a coincidence so you just make me feel so smart i just want to be around you so my question is how do you deal with developers that have this attitude a second question i'd like to ask oh wait a minute we have a one question limit here sorry okay we'll let we'll let this in 69 more episodes friend we'll let this one back in line a second question i'd like to ask according to a close colleague or friend in the office this person feels threatened over the ideas i contribute to the project which maybe is true should i stop giving ideas for the project oh oh this sounds really hard what you need to do

is just crush your dreams and your hopes just tamp it down just become a drone okay and and then stop contributing beyond mechanically typing out what the smarter person tells you to type out have you ever worked with someone who who you felt like was trying to kind of one-up you or show that they were smart i'm trying to think back uh yes i just thought of one how did you deal with it well i was in a slightly different situation because i was a little more senior than this person oh you were more senior than the person who was trying to one-up exactly okay and so it didn't feel threatening it just felt annoying you know yeah but i think this listener feels threatened by this to the point that he wants to quit um uh but in my situation

it was just like oh geez stop it you know yeah then i would move on with my life and i was no worse off yeah i i don't think i've had it with a senior developer a senior person to me either i have had situations where it was a colleague or someone more junior i have had situations where more senior people genuinely did know way more than i did and sometimes they weren't the best at communicating but but it didn't feel like they were trying to just like crush me it was just like they weren't great communicators but they were communicating the knowledge they had and it was a little scary earlier on yeah so oh oh i just thought of one no i just thought of one a real legitimate situation no there was i uh i went to work for a company and there was a uh a scientist

who had developed a lot of the original stuff like a lot of the algorithms and things that were in use at the company and i had a lot of questions um about how it worked and you know i would ask questions like you know the scientists would say well you have to do it this way and i would say or else what you know and he would be super threatened by that and he'd start kind of monologuing about stuff and i got the impression that he really was he felt threatened and wanted he would kind of go on these rants and these philosophical monologuing sessions that in the end basically boiled down to i don't know you know like i never tried that or or uh um you know it's hard to explain like but it sounds really similar to this situation and you want to know

how i resolved that situation how i did nothing and he got fired uh that's hilarious because i actually just remembered a very similar situation it wasn't a scientist but it was like the original developer of a large and complex system um and and me asking questions about it threatened this developer quite a bit okay how do you know he was threatened he or she i am inferring based on what i know about how people work um sorry that's funny it it was like the answers i would say i don't know like a third or a quarter of the time there was there was a real answer of like because of this technical constraint some of the time was just like i don't know i just had to get it done but but they would never admit it they would always they would they

would just like come up with fake reasons why instead of just saying i don't know like i was trying to learn it and i had to get it done quickly and that's just what i did and and it got a little aggressive at times a little a little hot under the collar yeah yeah because and to be fair i think this person had a reasonable justification for feeling threatened because they kind of were threatened and they had a similar outcome to what you described Dave

but I think the key thing there was I didn't I don't feel like it made me look bad because I feel like I knew enough to be secure in asking questions and

and because I didn't know the system didn't make me dumb it just meant i didn't know what i didn't know the all the inner workings and all the quirks and stuff um so i was fine asking questions and and getting sometimes a little bit testy answers because they would either tell me like oh okay there isn't actually a reason or it's like no this is a giant pitfall and if i didn't ask this question i would have broken everything so it was it was it was fine it was totally worth it but i wasn't i wasn't super junior this person's been working for four months as a junior developer so i assume that means they've been working for four months period as a developer uh yeah probably

uh and and the fact that their supervisor is using words they don't understand um doesn't necessarily mean they're making words up i mean at four months into software there's a lot of words you don't there are a lot of words i still don't know there are so many weird words in software am i right yeah yeah who even knows what big omicron is or um funks yeah uh co-free monads um so so i guess wait a minute you just made that up co-free monads no i can i can't tell you what they are i can tell you they exist though okay so fancy words that actually exist is like the name dropping of software development right yeah i guess uh it is interesting that most of our examples have come from functional programming i know i don't

want to say anything listen some of my best friends are functional programmers but but those people love their jargon you're so functionalist what's that you're so functionalist yeah anyways my point is it is very possible that your supervisor is an egomaniac trying to manipulate you into looking stupid it's also possible that they're just that they're also saying real things that you don't understand yet as a new developer and they're just not good at explaining things um yep i i feel like uh there's it's probably more likely that they're just not a great communicator and also they're saying real things than that they're just straight up 100 and making up nonsense to put you in your place i i bet there's a little bit of both that they're they're

just not good at explaining things to new developers that's right and it turns out go ahead that not being a good communicator is i would say rampant in the software development field right yeah odds are pretty good yeah if you just pluck an average developer out of the group i i i agree with you i think it's likely that they might not be the best communicator that might even be true of humanity as a whole just pluck a random human anyway yeah wait no that can't be true they'd be an average communicator that's right that's right what i'm saying is we need a we need a stats phd yeah i don't get this to help us answer this anyways uh that's not very helpful to you beyond just like i don't know part of being new is feeling overwhelmed by all the new stuff

out there and and um that's a normal feeling yes and and it's also sadly normal to sometimes have people enforce that feeling by using a lot of jargon. I mean, they genuinely might be the smartest person in the room, too. Even if they have a need to feel that way, they might actually be it. Yeah. I would say that that information, you know, Jameson, you said it might not be that helpful, but I actually think it's pretty actionable because if you change your mindset and say, I'm just going to assume that everything this guy says is real and he's not making stuff up,

And I'm going to take it as an opportunity to go learn all these words and see why he was using them in the context that he was and make notes, write down the things he says that you don't understand, take them back to your desk, do some research and figure out why he may have used them. And for the things you can't figure out, take it on as like a mentor relationship with this guy. He may not be open to this. Just the crappiest mentor ever.

I know. No, no, no. It's like one of those gruff sports movie mentors where they're like reluctant. they're not they're not happy or or nice at all but deep inside they have a heart of gold and at the end you'll get like a little head ruffle and like ah kid you're all right but meanwhile they just abuse the crap out of you yeah yeah but you have to yeah you have to suffer for that knowledge but you love them more than anyone because it was so hard earned yep i think that only happens in movies i think you're right don't do that but you could take it

as an opportunity to learn these new words and worst case scenario you find out that he is completely snowballing you is that the right word i don't know anyway you might be hang on wait yeah we got a situation here where you said a word that i didn't know to make yourself look smarter code red we have a situation uh he's just uh emptying your water bottle you know classic idiom in the english language that definitely exists yeah i i like that i i do find it unlikely that this person is 100 making up words they might be trying to justify themselves with like technical stuff that doesn't apply i've seen that a lot more than straight up making stuff up where someone will bring up like oh it's not acid compliance and like that's a real thing that

means stuff and is useful sometimes and in like a tiny web app that has two users it doesn't matter right so that's still a learning opportunity developers will often use that stuff with non-technical people as well where they just they have some degree of like mystique and trust where they just say these magic incantations and then the non-technical people are like, well, he said the rights on the spinning plate hard drives would destroy it in a couple of years, so we can't do it.

Okay, that's what he said. They know that stuff. Oh, man. And I think part of growing as a developer is learning all those constraints and how they apply to real products. So this might be you kind of use this stuff and develop your self-defense skills.

against it so if you go learn what acid compliance means like dave said and then you learn when it doesn't matter then then you can push back a little bit more intelligently instead of just saying like i don't believe you acid compliance that's not a real thing so so i think there's one other possibility here um one of the communication breakdowns that i've seen between developers excuse me one of the communication breakdowns i've seen between developers is when you have people talking at different levels. And by level, I mean, like, you'll have someone speaking at like a pie in the sky, futuristic, philosophical level. Meanwhile, they're having a conversation with someone who's talking boots on the ground,

ship it tomorrow level. And those people cannot see eye to eye when they're in a conversation sometimes. And that may be happening here. You know, maybe your boss, your supervisor is throwing out all these big words and stuff and they don't seem like idealism yeah exactly they don't seem relevant for your situation because your boots on the ground but he is thinking you know long-term five-year plan you know we could do anything and you're thinking yeah but i just need to get through this this stack trace you know that so it's possible you have a mismatch there yeah it also sounds like this happens a lot in meetings where there's some degree of like public calling out or shaming or something yeah and and that really stinks first of all that's not

that's a bad thing for a supervisor to do um you can answer questions and bring up concerns but you shouldn't ever make people feel stupid in front of other people in meetings i feel like unless you're like steve jobs and then he gets away with it i guess but maybe it's an environment Maybe a solution is to ask in more private settings or to ask other people that aren't this supervisor. If you're trying to answer questions you have or bring up feedback about the project, then there might be some performance going on here where the audience makes them behave in a less than ideal way. Yeah, I've seen that and it's unfortunate and totally happens. Yeah, and we mentioned feeling attacked earlier. you also mention it in your question if they feel threatened taking away the audience makes it a lot

less threatening because if you're bringing up concerns or issues with their ideas then suddenly they're like defending themselves in front of a group and then they get all uh defensive like i just said but if you do it one-on-one i think it's easier to avoid getting getting your guard up worrying about looking stupid in front of other people yep um i'm afraid i will simply find someone like this in my next job as well uh i don't know it's a fairly common trope you can definitely find jobs without people like this oh yeah you can find people like this in a lot of places though i would say that it's unlikely that you're necessary like i would say the chances of running into this again are low unless the problem is you which i don't want

to come right out and say that but it could be like that that's it it's possible and i would do some soul searching to try to figure that out if that's the case the problem is going to follow you to the next job right unless you really address it here yeah well uh that's a shining note to end the question anything else we should say about it i would say i probably would not quit this job after four months i would keep trudging along and seeing what i can learn from it and if you give yourself the mindset that it's short term for you and you maybe even give yourself a deadline say look i'm going to take three more months and if the situation isn't better i'm going to bail that'll give you your mind freedom to really be malleable and flex with this situation and see what you can

learn from it while not feeling you know like you have to make a decision to quit your job every two minutes yeah so yeah that makes sense right on question answered so answered we have one more question which i will read now i have been a developer at my current company for about two years and i'm looking for a change of scenery i really enjoy working for the company and have no desire to find a new job but the location has just grown old i'm considering moving to a larger city about two hours away but like to keep my job and work remote is this something either of you have had experience with and if so when is a good time to mention my consideration to relocate i don't want to bring it up too early and have it backfire on me thanks so i love how this question asker

says change of scenery but it's literally a change of scenery it's not a metaphor for quitting your job and they just literally want to change the scenery around them yeah uh have you tried new curtains in your home or apartment you can achieve a scenery change with wallpaper curtains furniture the succulent plants are very popular among millennials right now try acquiring some of those so i have never um moved from full-time on-site to full-time remote but i have worked around several people who have do you have any experience with this dave no i have been on the other end of that question where someone comes to me and says i want to move and work remotely okay that's perfect yeah what went through your head when they asked that oh i just blurted out you're fired

you dare i will say this though what gives you the right to ask me you're fired um no that's not what i did uh i will say this though among management so there were three or three managers i think involved and and this one engineer came to his manager and said i want to i want to move and i want to continue working for this company but remotely and i will say we did discuss it uh and it gave us an opportunity to think hard about whether this team member was a good fit and um because basically it was an opportunity to cut ties if we wanted to we you know we could say yeah you're going to move we are not going to continue the working relationship

like it was it's a it is a decision point so you will be putting management into a decision-making mode that they would not have been in otherwise so i would say ship something really awesome and then go in did was there any uh room for concern that way was there a little or was it just okay yeah this was what is the case uh this engineer ended up moving and and um continuing to work uh for the company but it was like uh you know it's an opportunity to think to think about things um you know there are some people i think on on every team who say i want to work remotely and we say okay you can work from anywhere on the planet in any time zone and you can keep working for my company just please keep working for me you know and then there are and that's like five

percent of the engineers you know and then everyone else it's going to be like a decision point i think interesting so what what made you decide to let the engineer work remotely oh i'm trying to remember so long ago let's see the gifts they brought you yeah put an apple on my desk i honestly can't remember the individual criteria okay um so the i've seen it happen at least three times on people that were or two people that were on my team um and in all those cases they were just really incredible engineers developers um who were doing fantastic work and they were also very set on moving no matter what and it was basically like i will just get a different job if you don't let me do it they weren't threatening but like they were committed

to moving uh they were also very helpful and useful to have on the team and had a track record of delivering really good work um and in those cases it was a no-brainer they had they had done great work we really wanted them to stay on the team and at the company and and so we just did it i don't think i've seen it in person where there was anyone that was kind of on the fence about whether we would let them or not huh yeah one one of the people um moved across the country another person would go on regular vacations for like three months every year to to europe um and another person moved their whole family to europe wow like permanently i'm so envious yeah i i'm i'm not envious of the of the circumstances because technically i could

do that if i wanted to i'm envious of the ability to just decide to do that i'm just so rooted where i live with family and also laziness that i just know i'm not gonna pick up and move to costa rica you're paralyzed by inertia i i am i have put down roots anyways so so i think the most useful advice i can give you is be really good at your job be very visibly good at your job and then you have to decide how willing you are to find a different job because if you're if you're 100 moving then you're gonna move and you'll just get a different job and you can find remote jobs that is oh that is one more wrinkle here it sounds like you didn't really mention it in your question but i gather that this is not a remote company that remote is the exception and that's a very

different experience than working remote for a remote company and it can be pretty isolating if everyone's used to talking face to face and getting work done with people in the office you can feel left out a lot because people won't communicate with you because they just don't see you so you have to work harder both to communicate your efforts and to find out what's going on you have to make sure what you're doing is visible and you have to make sure that you know all the architect all the architecture discussions that are happening or the product changes or i don't know it's a lot more work communicating with people that tend to forget you exist sometimes that's true and i think that's a bit of a separate question is you know are you remote work material

because not yeah yeah but i mean i think being able to demonstrate that you are remote work material both that you do great work for the company right now but also showing like hey i think i've looked into what the issues are and i'm confident i can overcome them that is a really good point if someone showed up at my desk as a manager and asked me those questions and came to me with a bullet point of remote work challenges and plans that they had to overcome those challenges i would be very impressed and i would say you've clearly thought this through i'm much more inclined to grant you this than i would be otherwise that would be especially important for a company like jameson said in this case if it's not remote work oriented already you know bring

the concerns up front that's so good such a good idea and then make sure you post a lot on social media at like two in the afternoon of you just hanging out on your couch playing video games or like another great day at the beach what an awesome week i so i've personally discovered remote is super cool and it's hip and and there's there's this cultural thing that goes along with it and i've learned that it does not make me happy that i'm real sad when i work remote i don't work as well that's so interesting to hear you say that because all your hobbies you're out seeking isolation but at work you want to be around engineers yeah i do i just i just i just like those people you're such a complex being jameson just can't understand you have depth you're

sophisticated only yeah it only comes out in the poems i write and the black eyeshadow that i put on at home yeah have we answered the question anything else we should say well let's look at this last sentence i don't want to bring it up too early and have it backfire on me what does that mean too early like what would be a too early uh i mean they've worked there for two years maybe they feel like they haven't paid their dues yet haven't earned people's trust two years that's plenty of time for people to know who you are and what you're capable of yeah i agree two years doesn't feel too early to me or or maybe it's like too early since the time i ruined the whole company on accident back when i accidentally the prod database yeah i think uh okay so here's one

other thing if they're if the your manager seems really reluctant to grant you this opportunity why don't you engage in a trial period where you stay in your current scenery and you just work from home a number of days per week as a trial period and then you can assess at the end and then do a darn good job performing while you're in this trial period and demonstrate that you can do it and uh you know put that out there and say i want to do a one month trial and and see how it goes maybe your manager will be likely to or more likely to accept it yeah one other thing to look out for is i i have seen places that will i don't know if it's deliberate or inadvertent they'll just dangle this in front of people forever and never actually do it i guess

it's i've seen it more with salary things uh we're like yeah well you'll get a raise next period we just can't right now because of business all right this one is a little easier to force because you can just like move and see what they do but if you're doing the trial period make sure it has an end date on it that yeah yeah that is unambiguous so that you can actually get an answer instead of just like well we'll get back to you we'll evaluate it you'll hear back from us yep because the danger there is they don't want to but they also don't want to say no so they just never give you an answer yep all right did we answer it indubitably another question answered another one down we're closer one question closer to answering all the questions how can people go

to ask their own questions they can go to softskills.audio and see the form on that website there's a link right up at the top of the website to ask a question thank you so much for your questions they're great we really enjoy uh reading them and answering them they help us become more powerful yeah thank you we also have really been enjoying wait did you say powerful what

did you say powerful yeah I said they help us become more powerful I've been playing a lot of Dungeons and Dragons lately so that's where my brain is it's all about like gathering power you mean literally like hit points you get more yeah yeah

does D&D use the word hit points they do yeah I knew that anyway jameson listen star wars that stuff's for nerds dnd is what distinguished people of fine taste play okay excellent yeah so thanks very much we love your questions if you have comments about this episode or any prior episode please use the same form to leave those comments for us like our two listeners did today we would love to hear your opinions on the things that we talked about yeah please share it as well we love getting more listeners that also increases our

hit points um and i think with that we are done we'll catch you next week bye