Software at Scale - Software at Scale 41 - Minimal Entrepreneurship with Sahil Lavingia

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to Software at Scale, a podcast where we discuss the technical stories behind large software applications. I'm your host, Utsav Shah, and thank you for listening. Hey, Sahil, welcome to another episode of the Software at Scale podcast, and thank you for joining me. Thank you for having me. Yeah, so Sahilil you are the founder of Gumroad. You were the second employee at Pinterest. You run a VC fund I should say at shl.vc. You're doing a lot of things and I'd love to get to know your background a little bit like how did you get interested in all of these different things and what was your

Starting point is 00:00:45 story like sure yeah so I think I started out kind of my professional career I guess as a web designer that was kind of the first thing I think I ever got paid for was designing I think a social studies teacher's personal website or something like that she had some books and needed a website and I built this thing and designed it in photoshop and then used tables and image ready. If anyone, if you're familiar with that, basically an Adobe product that would turn your Photoshop image into a bunch of tables of HTML, like totally brittle, wouldn't scale whatsoever, but worked at the time. And so that's kind of how I started just getting into web design. I was like maybe 13 or 14 years old, just thought it was fun. And then quite quickly realized I could make money off of it, which was like a pretty exciting thing. I wanted to buy more Xbox games. I grew up in Singapore. So as for a kid living in Singapore,

Starting point is 00:01:34 being able to make money on the internet, selling to anyone was just a pretty profound, I think, learning for me. And so I started doing that. And after, I don't know, maybe a year or two of doing that, people would give me larger and larger projects. So they would say, Hey, we need a website design or like now we need a web application. Right. But I didn't know how to code at the time. And so I would basically do the work, say that I bill for kind of the whole project and then find a developer and then basically pay them to do the kind of backend component of what I was designing. And eventually design decided to learn how to code basically as a way to save money. But then practically, I think I really wanted to get to the point where I could basically come up with an idea for an app or some product and make it and launch it by myself,

Starting point is 00:02:24 like without anyone else's permission. And I needed the permission effectively of a developer every single time I started learning how to code. I actually tried and failed a bunch of times. And at some point, I remember thinking like, this is impossible. Like you either have to become a designer, or you have to become a developer. Like it's, you can't do both. But there was one person I followed on social media, this guy, Sean Inman, who was a designer and a developer. He had, he built an analytics tool called Mint and some other things that engineers may be familiar with from sort of like 2008 era of the web. And he was a designer and a developer. So I was like, okay, this is possible. I'm going to keep trying. And that finally clicked for me with the iPhone.

Starting point is 00:03:06 So the iPhone came out in 2007. Then the App Store came out in 2009. And when the App Store came out, that was sort of the first time that coding really clicked for me. I think it's partly because it's just such a designer-y tool anyway, but it made sense. I downloaded this set of videos from Stanford. It's kind of their iOS development class, did all the assignments. Basically three weeks later, I knew how to build rudimentary iPhone apps. And so I started making and selling my iPhone apps on the app store, made a few thousand dollars, but that's really kind of what got me really jazzed about,

Starting point is 00:03:42 oh, wow, I can actually build, I can come up with an idea, design it, and build it into a product and sell that product without having to talk to another human being. And that has always kind of been the power of software to me. It's this kind of access to kind of the economy, right? And so I went to school, I moved to LA to go to USC and was still making iPhone apps on the side. And one of those iPhone apps, I believe it was data, D-A-Y-T-A, an app that I built to

Starting point is 00:04:10 kind of track numerical data points in your life on a daily basis. I think it got to the top or it was somewhere on the front page of Hacker News. And Ben, the CEO of Pinterest, sent me an email and said, hey, I work on this company or this product called Pinterest. It's a website. It helps you collect, organize, share the things that you love. We need an iPhone app. It looks like you can make iPhone apps.

Starting point is 00:04:33 Do you want to talk about helping us out? And so I had a phone call, I think, with him and started doing freelance work for Pinterest back in the day. I think at the time, it was a total of three people, including the two founders and did that for a little while. And it turns out there's like a talent shortage, a designer developer talent shortage that I don't think will ever get resolved. To be honest, I think it's the more engineers there are, the more engineers we're going to need to support those engineers, that sort of thing. But anyway, I realized later that, oh, wow, like, yeah, it turns out if you can design and code and you're kind of visible. I had a blog and I was posting on

Starting point is 00:05:08 Hacker News and I had a Twitter account. You'll get the attention of Y Combinator startups, et cetera, who are trying to hire aggressively. And so I got a couple offers, flew to the Bay Area once or twice and ended up joining Pinterest full time. And so I ended up moving up to the Bay Area and then doing design and development for them. Built Pinterest for iPhone. Was kind of my core contribution there. But did a bunch of other stuff. And left to start my own company.

Starting point is 00:05:34 I think something like eight or nine months into it. Kind of stupidly to be honest. In terms of at least at the time financially. But I was just super excited about starting my own company. And I built this like weekend project called Gumroad to help me sell my icon. And it kind of got some sort of early traction on Hacker News. And I kind of couldn't stop thinking about it. And building your own company is just kind of different to working at a company.

Starting point is 00:05:57 It's kind of like going back to the younger me, not wanting to like even work with one single developer, like wanting to control the whole sort of process end to end. I think similarly, like I wanted to start a company and go through that whole process and kind of almost self-actualize within it myself. And so I left and raised a small seed round of $1.1 million from a bunch of Silicon Valley people. And then four or five months later, I raised a series A from Kleiner Perkins. And that was kind of the beginning of the journey and that was kind of the beginning of the journey and my background, kind of from zero to 20-ish. Yeah, there's this like super

Starting point is 00:06:31 famous tweet of yours. I have an idea for a project, going to build it over the weekend. And that is Gumroad. Yeah, I had an idea for my first billion dollar company. Tomorrow, I start building it yeah and exactly yeah that was the that was gumroad we're not there yet we just a little ways to go yeah and and that turned out to be an exciting journey of itself like highs and lows i guess the first question is i think in in the bay area at least that, you're kind of pushed towards this, grow as quickly as possible, raise bigger and bigger rounds, do marketing and PR. Is that, what do you think that's out of?

Starting point is 00:07:14 Is it just like the VC ecosystem trying to make as much of like profits on as possible? Is it that founders are incentivized through this kind of like status game? Like, what do you think drives this or like a combination of all of these things? Yeah, it's definitely a combination. And I do think that people who get caught up in this sort of anti VC mentality are missing kind of larger forces at play, because I don't really think it's just like VCs who are making all of these things happen. And there's only so much money can buy. And most VCs have plenty of that. So it's,

Starting point is 00:07:50 I don't think it's purely kind of a profit driven motive. I think it's a little bit more complicated. I mean, I think one, there's definitely a status game. I think when I moved to the Bay area, right. One of the first questions people ask you at a party is like, what do you do? Right. That's kind of the first question. And if you say, hey, I have a company, they'll say, oh, like, how far along are you? Right? Like, how much money have you raised? Who did you raise money from? How many employees do you have? These are all kind of status games in the sense that they're all putting you on a ladder relative to everybody else at the party almost, right? Which is kind of the nature of a boomtown, right? Like everyone moves to San Francisco for that purpose. So you can't really, I think, get too upset at that.

Starting point is 00:08:28 Just like if you move to New York or LA, people have different questions that also kind of tend to tie to whatever the reason people have for being there. But I think just generally the way that I think about it, I think it's twofold. One is that it's a high failure rate process, right? Building a company and succeeding at especially trying to get to a billion dollar outcome. And

Starting point is 00:08:49 I think in a high failure rate industry, you want to be successful really quickly, right? Because you don't, you want to know that you're not going to be a failure. And so I think that's like a really large driver of that sort of behavior of trying to build these kind of unicorn kind of companies. Then the other thing is that we deal in equity, right? We're a very unique industry in which equity is basically the primary form of compensation as a whole in the industry. No other industry works like this. 90% of Americans, maybe 99% of Americans don't have equity in the business they work for, right? Like it's just not really done. And I think that has a ton of benefits, right? I think it's great

Starting point is 00:09:31 to have that level of alignment. I believe that people who take risks early should get rewarded for them. Big fan of equity. The downside of equity is that it creates this very strong desire and incentive to make your company as valuable as possible. And not just as valuable as possible, but quickly, right? Because you kind of, the way VCs work is we kind of do these kind of discounted cashflow-esque things, or just investors generally, right? If you're growing 200% a year, you're not worth double a startup that's growing 100% a year, right? You're kind of worth 4X or 10X because you're kind of projecting out into the future. To make your equity worth a lot very quickly, you don't have to grow that much faster, right?

Starting point is 00:10:11 It really matters. And so I think that just kind of encourages this kind of feedback, trying to grow as quickly as possible. And then finally, there's fake it till you make it, right? And so I think ultimately you almost do, even if you don't think you're going to make it, you kind of have to think that you will and play the game as if you are in terms of raising money and hiring people and this and that. And then ultimately, like some companies do figure it out.

Starting point is 00:10:33 Tesla might be like a really famous example of this, right? Like there are multiple times that company could have gone out of business. And I'm a big fan of Tesla, but it's just the nature of businesses and high risk businesses, venture, unprofitable businesses, especially. That's the other thing maybe I would add is like, there's just no interest in profits because profits just don't factor in for a long time. And so in these early stages of company development, like the only real thing you can focus on is sort of the value of the company, you know, the amount of number of employees and engineers that are working for it as a proxy for value in many ways, right?

Starting point is 00:11:06 And so yeah, there's a bunch of things. I think it's quite complicated. I even remember when I did a big round of layoffs in 2015 to get to profitability. And I wrote an article about this reflecting on my failure to build a billion dollar company, kind of references that tweet that I had in 2011 that you mentioned. But many people took that as like, oh, look, it's like VC's fault that this happened. And it's like, not really. Ultimately, the VCs let me do what I wanted to do. The VCs don't generally have that much power. And actually, the largest force here is the employees. If you're a founder and you own 30% of the company, or if you're a VC and you own 10% of the company, you're still going to do quite well if the company sells for $20 million, $50 million, something like that. But actually, the employees who own 1% of the company or 0.1% of the company,

Starting point is 00:11:48 they actually really need this thing to work. And if your thing is not working super well, they can go join Stripe, right? Like there's other opportunities in which their equity will be worth a lot very quickly. So you have this kind of winner take all almost within the industry where you like kind of creates this growth engine. And it's ultimately why I ended up shrinking a company down to one, just me and ran it myself for a couple of years. And then when I started growing the company again, I kind of did everything very differently, hired asynchronously, all contractors started with contractors in India and kind of now we have people in 17 different countries. And it's just a very, very kind of different kind of model too, because I do think sort of a very very kind of different kind of model because i do think sort

Starting point is 00:12:25 of ultimately incentives are kind of what drive everything else if you kind of want to explain human behavior i think kind of looking at what incentives they have or is generally a pretty good proxy and so i think in yeah like this sort of employee equity and just equity generally is going to incentivize a certain kind of behavior not to say if that's right or wrong but generally it is what happens for example example, profit sharing, right? Profit sharing would be very different. Then your goals would be like, okay, let's make as much profit as possible, which would result in a kind of a different product, different business model, different pricing, different

Starting point is 00:12:55 kinds of people you're hiring. You probably can't raise money for it or raising money would be a very different process, et cetera, et cetera. So you basically talk about this other form of entrepreneurship which is minimalist entrepreneurship which is different from how startups are generally built so without going too much into the details of minimalist entrepreneurship yet it's safe to say that it's not the growth at all costs profitability profitability doesn't matter at all mentality. It's profitability from day one, sustainability, building for community. Those are like the key tenets, at least from what I understand.

Starting point is 00:13:32 So my first question there is, do you actually give employees equity when you're building a business in the minimalist entrepreneur way? Or do you basically just pay hard cash? Good question. One, I would say you should avoid hiring anybody for as long as possible. So ideally, you don't have to kind of think about that for a little while, ideally, until you have kind of product market fit. And then I think it depends. And this is kind of an unsolved problem. If you kind of think about startups or entrepreneurship, software entrepreneurship, specifically as a field, we don't really have textbooks, right? We're still kind of early in the, compared to physics or something like that, right? There's a lot of precedent established. So I think we're still figuring out what is the right approach, especially because we have to

Starting point is 00:14:16 work within a regulatory framework, which often dictates the way we think about options and other things. Startups would prefer a very different model, but sometimes you just can't provide it legally, right? And crypto is kind of an example of what happens when you just ignore all the regulations for better or worse, like leads to some interesting different kinds of behaviors. But there's, yeah, I think it really depends on like, what is the ultimate liquidity strategy for you, right? How are you as a founder going to make money?

Starting point is 00:14:44 And I think the way that you incentivize your employees should align with that, right? How are you as a founder going to make money? And I think the way that you incentivize your employees should align with that, right? So if you plan to kind of turn this into a massive cash cow and take 10% of the sort of profit for yourself, then my guess is you should probably sort of have a profit sharing plan with everybody else in the company. But if you actually end up also selling the business, you're also going to get the sale of the business, right? A hundred million dollars, let's say. So I think you should also have a plan for what would happen in that case, right? Which is almost kind of, they're called just kind of shadow shares effectively, but they're not real shares, but they're kind of a promise that if this happens in an unlikely scenario, you'll get

Starting point is 00:15:22 shares issued at this price. And then boom, you'll pay shares issued at this price and then boom, you'll pay kind of taxes on it because it's effectively income versus because capital gains and other things don't really kick in, I think. So there are complications to think about. But other people may decide after they've built a minimalist business that they do want to turn this into a venture-backed startup and they really want to go big or go home. And then I think equity and the kind of standard option plans, et cetera, I think are wise in that.

Starting point is 00:15:47 And which can happen. I think one thing that sort of the minimalist entrepreneur framework, like I don't want people to think that this is like a mutually exclusive, right? Where you're like, you have to do it this way. I kind of think of it like a set of principles and values that you can overlay on top of lots of different things. And especially in the beginning of your career, I do think it's helpful to think about it just like I did, like building stuff, shipping stuff, getting feedback from customers, selling stuff, marketing,

Starting point is 00:16:10 just because I think it's really important to learn all of those skills. But I don't think there's anything wrong necessarily with like raising venture capital. Obviously, I'm a venture capitalist myself now. So it's a thing to think about versus like, oh, this is the way you must go about it. But generally, it is the way that i think about building new businesses and stuff yeah yeah it's kind of like i guess to summarize what you're saying see the shape of your business like how it's growing what you see is the exit strategy as a founder and decide what's best for your employees and aligns incentives for your employees and for you long term and decide a comp strategy based on that rather than blindly going with something it takes a little bit of thought up front but yeah sometimes the nice thing about startups and equity it's just simple right

Starting point is 00:16:58 because you can kind of just copy how everyone else has done it you can literally copy paste like the gumroad equity plan 2011 and there's probably not that many changes, right? And change the company name and you're good to go. And so, yeah, when you're pursuing this, you kind of have to think about it and it's real kind of mental cognitive load to really be like, okay, what's the right, where does this company go? And what's the right way to incentivize your employees? I think one heuristic that's important is just like if everything was made public would you feel good about it right make sure that that is true and then you'll probably end up doing something that is pretty fair yeah the nice thing about our industry is there's so many people blogging and

Starting point is 00:17:40 open sourcing things and you're one of the people who does that a lot for their companies you talk about i mean you had a tweet today that said because of high inflation rates everyone's getting a 6.2 percent raise very few other industries do you see people talking openly about even salaries going up or down or addressing things that are clearly top of mind for everyone because everyone's paying for higher gas yeah on ethereum and otherwise yeah so one question that i had before i bought the book was you hear a lot about like the indie hacker movement right this idea i think started a few years ago this company now bought by stripe this idea of engineers or other people just anybody building applications on their own, not raising

Starting point is 00:18:25 funding, like bootstrapping in a sense, and building successful businesses out of that. Is there any difference between the IndieHacker framework and like minimalist entrepreneurship? How would you look at it? Like if there is a difference? Yeah, no, I think they're pretty similar. I would say that the indie hacker is sort of a personality. I think it's similar to the way I think about the digital nomad, in which the lifestyle seems to take precedent. Like I went to a conference called MicroConf in Vegas after I wrote that post that went viral. And I did a little talk about it and I met a bunch of people and almost everybody there, they're sort of very clear. First priority was enough money to kind of buy a house, a nice house and like spend time with their family. Like that was kind of like the prerogative to build a

Starting point is 00:19:18 business. And in that case, like you should build kind of like the most boring business possible, right. For a community that you don't really care about, but has money because your goals have nothing to do with serving that community, which is fine, right? No value kind of judgments for me. And the indie hacker is sort of like, I think about, yeah, kind of independence and hacker, I guess, is sort of more focused on kind of software engineering. The digital nomad is kind of like the more Tim Ferriss-y kind of lifestyle, kind of like the microconf, but maybe for single people or something like that. And I would say the minimalist

Starting point is 00:19:48 entrepreneur framework, the primary way it differs is it really focuses on who do you want to help? Who do you want to serve? Because I tried the kind of more solo thing, traveling the world, working from a MacBook Air, no schedule. And it was, I don't, I wouldn't say it was miserable, like certainly no complaints, but like, I don't know. I was, it wasn't satisfying, right? It wasn't, I don't know. I really like working on a project with many people and it's getting better and everyone feels good. And I learn from everybody else and they learn from me and I get feedback. And I have a bunch of customers who I like talking to who are their lives are getting better because of the work that we're doing. I really enjoy that. And yeah,

Starting point is 00:20:30 so I wanted to find almost like a middle ground and between kind of like the retire on a beach mentality and the sort of blitz scaling sort of try to build the next Facebook mentality. And I like to think that, especially with crowdfunding and other things, I think that that will kind of get more and more feasible. And a lot of the stuff that I tweet, like the salary employee stuff, like, and the way that I run the business now, I'm trying to craft this third path that allows for the flexibility of the digital nomad-esque lifestyle, but also allows for the potential scale and impact that a startup may have. And the truth is, this is something I noticed, is that the vast majority

Starting point is 00:21:13 of the attention that I see is directed at the startup blitzscaling, trying to become a billionaire approach. Even though my article went super viral and people like a lot of the ideas in it, and even this book, there's this aspirational component to many humans, right? They want to build something amazing. It's kind of like the Steve Jobsian make a dent in the universe, right? Which actually he never said, but works, I guess. It's from a movie, I think. And I can even look back at my own, when I was a kid, it was like Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. And now for many kids, I assume it's kind of like Elon Musk and stuff like that. And so I also want to be realistic about ultimately you want to help people achieve their goals, not your own goals. And ultimately people want different things.

Starting point is 00:22:03 And I think trying to build in some of the indie hacker-esque principles into the startup path i think may be the kind of the long-term like most applicable most accessible solution for people so you're trying to get some of that excitement that people have from the aspirational build a next billion dollar company as well as making sure people are intentional about who they're serving the communities they're serving because yes that's how a lot of people and focusing on profitability yeah you know and building quickly and shipping quickly and talking to customers and marketing in this way that I market

Starting point is 00:22:45 and growing in this, yeah, working asynchronously with no office and applying a lot of the kind of almost like keeping the impact, the culture or the technology, but replacing the culture almost. Right. And replacing the set of priorities, I think in order to sort of, I think, and I think if you do, you can actually like the failure rates of startups would actually be quite different. Like my guess is the failure rates of startups build in the cost of rent in San Francisco, for example, right. Which is no longer a real cost for most startups. And so my guess is actually like, and I wrote the book sort of for 2021, right? Like this kind of post pandemic, what does the world look like going forward?

Starting point is 00:23:27 What does the process of company building look like going forward? And I wanted to kind of encapsulate a lot of those ideas in this book. I think one of the key ideas in the book that strikes out to me as someone who's a software engineer is that you can keep trying projects on the side and eventually if you're doing things right if you're talking to

Starting point is 00:23:54 customers you will hit something that people want to buy or like to use right like you're not going to get it right the first time probably but i think that's a really important idea in this maybe if you can just talk a little bit about that idea i think you're right there are a lot of people i talk to who they have like a couple problems there's kind of two there's two problems associated this with this one is there's kind of definitely a personality that i find that like builds a lot of stuff, but, and then they, but they don't know who to build, like who it's for. I don't know if you've talked to these kinds of people, right. But like basically, or maybe you're listening and you're like, Oh no, that's me. I'm totally fine. But like, you kind of like build a to-do list app or, or like a meditation app. And then you're like, okay, I need to go find people who are into this. And then you really

Starting point is 00:24:41 struggle. Right. So that's kind of one set of problems. And then the other, I think is, is yeah, is people who basically don't have any business ideas, but yeah. And yeah, that's kind of where it ends, I guess, is they kind of just don't really know what to do. And I think the answer to both is yeah. Kind of like what you mentioned is just like really immerse yourself in these communities. Like the first chapter, I believe talks a lot about, look, forget about businesses, forget about even building a product. That's sort of like chapter, the next chapter, just focus on contributing to these communities, right? So figure out which communities you're already a part of, or you're adjacent to, for example, those may be Slack communities, Discord,

Starting point is 00:25:20 it might be Web3 stuff, NFTs, it might be Twitter. For me, it was Hacker News, Dribbble, Indie Hackers. There's a bunch of subreddits that people are a part of, but like your gym, science fiction writing community, painting, there's all of these different places. And I guarantee that everyone listening has those, right? Like there are places that you end up spending your time. Someone gave me a good heuristic the other day. They said, what do you do when you wake up in the morning and pull out your phone, which is what most people do, I assume. Where do you go? Who do you read? What do you catch up on? These are all potential hints at communities and people you could build for. And then start contributing. First, start lurking. Then start contributing.

Starting point is 00:26:00 And then finally, start creating original content content start writing comments and tweeting and like giving back effectively and i guarantee you if you do that if you do that enough you will have ideas people will actually tell you hey i saw that you wrote about selling digital content online do you have a do if anyone does has i don't know i'm a creator and i want i have to wait 60 days to get paid out by youtube and it would be is there a way to like get paid out immediately or something like literally people just DM me questions like that all the time. And if you do that one, you have business ideas, which is pretty awesome, but two, and I think this is pretty darn important. And actually when I ran this cohort based course around the book, one thing I really learned is it's specific. Like it's not just like, Oh, I need a debit card that gets me money up front.

Starting point is 00:26:46 It's kind of like the meditation app or the to-do list app. It's like, well, who is your first customer, right? Who do you, if you have an ad, who do you target, right? You can't target everybody. Then you're competing with Coke and Nike, right? You have to be really, really, really specific. And it's like, oh, this type of person or this community or this type of person within the community, right? You want to be as specific as possible. And that will actually help you actually build a better product too, right? And it makes everything easier. There's a great book, Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman, Kahneman, something like that. And he gives this example where it's like, if you say, hey, think of all the engineers that you might have a hard time. But if you say, think of all the mechanical engineers, it's easier. And so it's kind of this paradox where you're actually limiting the choice. So there should be fewer, but there's actually more because this sort of specificity allows you to kind of visualize the answer faster or something like that. And I think the same goes with customers. If you talk to a customer and you have a very specific idea, like it's not just a meditation app, but it's like a meditation app for people who do polyphasic sleeping or something like that, right? Like I'm pretty good

Starting point is 00:27:54 at this, but a lot of practice. But again, like, as you mentioned, you can build this kind of intuition and instinct over time, right? After having built quite a few things things and so that's kind of step two which is ultimately you should build try to solve the problem build try to solve the problem build try to solve the problem until you do and often you just won't and you'll move on to the next thing and you'll try again and eventually it'll work for you it reminds me of this talk by levels io who's like one of the most famous digital nomad people like if you don't have any hobbies or you don't hang out or do anything you're not going to be able to get ideas do something other than tech and there's going to be so many problems that you'll see that could be optimized by like simple applications yeah I think about it like every time I have to print something,

Starting point is 00:28:47 mail something, sign something, those are all startups or at least businesses, right? Like every time I have to email somebody a file, like that's a startup, that's a business, right? That's why I invested in HelloSign. I had recently like notarized something and ship it to Australia. And I'm like, wow, there's probably like 30 businesses here, right? Everything here will get automated, right? The

Starting point is 00:29:10 power of software, software does one thing, right? Which is it automates humans. That's it. That's all how software does. And if you're a software engineer, it's like the best sort of skillset in the world because you can look at all these humans everywhere and say, can I automate this? Can I automate part of your job? This is how software engineers think. So think about that. That really is the origin of every business is like, well, humans were doing this manually, but I can automate it, or I can centralize the effort and get economies of scale, or I can auto fill in the form based on the data, or I can use OCR and take an image and turn it into text and do, you know, build searching on top of that, right?

Starting point is 00:29:51 Like these are all, we're all human activities, right? The dishwasher used to be referencing a human and now generally references a machine. Same with computers, right? Computers were a human job. They're called computers, right? And now they're not. And so, yeah, I think it's, it's just, it's a really interesting, and I talked about that in the sort of the build chapter, which is think about processizing, right? Which is kind of almost like basically writing pseudocode, right? Like come up with what problem you're trying to solve and kind of the step-by-step playbook on how to solve it, and then kind of run customers almost through it yourself kind of manually and then over time and edit it you'll make mistakes you'll have forks you'll kind of

Starting point is 00:30:30 have almost like boilerplate pseudocode at that point and then once you feel good then you can sort of turn it into actual python or whatever and build an app that that that may solve that that kind of problem like i had this idea recently where I was like, Oh man, like for the book, I have all these like positive testimonials and the kind of standard process. It's like put them all on Amazon or try to get everyone to like review the book on Amazon, which is kind of stupid in my opinion. Cause why, I don't know why Amazon and, and have all these great tweets and stuff about it. And it's like, man, I would love like an app where I could literally just copy paste a bunch of tweet URLs. and it would just create this grid, like this wall of love ask thing that I could just embed on my website or, you know, link to people or have it on a page that would just collect all

Starting point is 00:31:12 the positive stuff that people, or maybe you, I just had this idea right now. I was like, you could just say, I wrote a book, it's called the minimalist entrepreneur. And then it automatically pulls in all the, all the tweets about about it and then you can just approve the ones you want to show up on this page or whatever right um why did i have that idea one it was like i was doing this manually right i was like copy pasting these things and maybe putting them into notion and then previewing the tweets or something and making them into a grid like i could do this manually but then too i had this problem right like and this is like a really key thing is if you don't have enough problems, one, congratulations, you must have an amazing life. I think most people I know like are surrounded

Starting point is 00:31:50 by things they want fixed. But two, you just go out and do stuff. And like, the more you do stuff, Adam Wathon had this amazing tweet, which was like, if you don't have any business ideas, start a business. Because just the act of starting a business, it doesn't, it could be a flower shop.

Starting point is 00:32:05 It doesn't really matter. But the act of doing it, you're going to realize like, holy crap, really? This is how the world works today. Like I have to print a bunch of papers and I have to fill it all out. Then I have to like mail them to the state of Delaware and I have to get a retail brick and mortar space. And that requires getting a realtor. Cause I can't, as an individual buy it myself, I have to like find somebody who's like legally certified to do this like imagine doing this like let's say you get rich and you're like I want a private taxi cab company and it's impossible and then you build a uber right so ultimately you just have to like kind of go out and experience life and like hit your head against something and be like that's annoying there's so many questions i have but that solves like the first piece which is go do interesting things just start a business and you'll get a ton of business ideas

Starting point is 00:32:50 or and you also shouldn't like numb yourself to the problems you're dealing with like it's just a change in perspective right rather than thinking this sucks you can start thinking is it possible or feasible for me to fix and then you'll get a ton of ideas through that. Yeah. And like, if you're, if you're struggling with like quality, just work, purposefully work on the worst idea you have. Right. I think there's a tendency to be like, oh, I need to work on the best idea. And then when it doesn't work, you're like, oh, that was my best idea. Like I suck. Right. This often happens. Like someone trying to write a book, it's like, oh, I have this amazing idea. And then it's never going to live up to the idea in your head, right? Because

Starting point is 00:33:27 the idea in your head doesn't have like typos and stuff. Like, it's easy to come up with cool ideas in your head. But actually, what you should do is like, almost like pick the easiest, simplest idea first, and then do that. And then if it works, great. If it doesn't, oh, well, it was your simplest, worst idea anyway, right. And it'll give you the momentum and learning. You'll definitely learn stuff. And then over time, just like when you raise the money, you don't talk to like your dream investor on day one, right? You kind of want to like practice and build up to it.

Starting point is 00:33:58 Right. And so I think it's also similar kind of with every skill really, but especially business building, you don't need to say, oh, I had this idea. I've been thinking about it for four years. I'm finally ready to build it. That's just a recipe for it not working and then getting depressed and then never doing it again, which is you need to, like, you literally need, I would say like minimum 10 attempts, right? Give yourself like 10 businesses from, for example, Gumroad was a weekend project, like give yourself 10 of those, right have an idea build a mvp and

Starting point is 00:34:27 ship it and write a blog post about it and try to get people to use it and email a bunch of reporters about it and do that 10 times over the course of a certain period of time and one of those things will resonate i think with with people the first version of Gumroad did not have automatic billing. From what I understand, every month, you would go and manually collate things and make sure the right PayPal accounts were credited and debited, which as an engineer, that's just like, whoa, I can't believe that's how an app was shipped. But it makes a ton of sense after some of the context on like processizing things yeah well yeah the key point of that is you don't have to automate everything right like even today gumroad's not fully automated right there's certain things that i do have to do manually like move money from our bank account to paypal even though the paypal stuff is all manual now, or sorry, all automated now. And so, yeah, and I do think that this is one thing I learned and I hope more people

Starting point is 00:35:29 realize, which is there's so much duct tape in Silicon Valley at all of these amazing companies that everyone worships. There's so much duct tape everywhere and there's a lot more manual stuff happening. There's a lot more manual stuff happening. There's a lot more manual process. There's a lot more paper and pen and sticky notes and ugly code and to do's in their code. And like all just like there's technical debt, right? That everyone knows technical debt exists, right? There's also kind of like process and cultural and operational debt, etc. And yeah, you don't want to prevent it from from, I don't know, making you not start and not shift. And so, yeah,

Starting point is 00:36:09 totally the first conversion to Gumroad every Saturday, every like sort of the first Saturday of every month or something like that, I would basically download as I would get kind of go to SQL pro do an export of everyone's balances and then basically PayPal each person. And every time I did it, I would reset their balance to zero in the database. Right. And yeah, like create every month and it could, it took me hours and overtime, great way to measure the growth of the company. But yeah, it's like, I talked to people and they're like, I can't believe you did that. And I'm like, well, no one knows. Right. Like no one knows. I, I'm, what am I like, what, what am I doing wrong? And it's like, technically you're not doing anything wrong. It's just kind of, it feels

Starting point is 00:36:53 wrong. Right. And it's like, well, let me tell you, like every business is like this, like there's always going to be like, for example, Stripe might brazil and like brazil's government might say we need a human manually like these are restrictions that are put on these companies and so i guarantee you stripe has a bunch of manual stuff even though they might be processing hundreds of billions of dollars a year right like all of these companies really really really do and yeah it's a i think part maybe maybe i got that from working at contr And so I just know from a very deep level, there's just tons of duct tape everywhere. Nothing is perfect. And it gives me the permission to allow for that too. And when I think about MVPs, even when we're ideating obviously new features at Gumroad, we're also thinking about new products we may want to build. I've actually learned this.

Starting point is 00:37:40 I'm pretty good about being like, we don't need that. And multiple, you know, people will be like, no, we really need that to ship. And it's like, well, we don't really, you know, like why, like it's important to define need, right? Like when someone says you need to blank, well, they're assuming there's kind of an assumption. There's an implication there, right? I, you need to eat dinner. It's why I don't need to, you need to, to make me feel happy or you need to, to stay alive because you're running out of energy. I don't know. But there's some, there should be something after the two that I think is often left unsaid.

Starting point is 00:38:14 And I think that's important. If you're MVP, I sort of, Paul Graham calls this kind of the quantile of utility. If you saw have solved the problem for the customer, then why do you, why do you need to do anything more? Right. At least for the, your initial kind of launch quote unquote right you can always do all of this stuff after the fact and yeah and yeah i think people kind of perfect is the enemy of good i think in this case yeah i think software engineers generally they have like the building part going down like they

Starting point is 00:38:46 know it or once they have an idea if they're the kind of people who just build build build or they they think a lot and they come up with an idea they build using that that's generally the easy part and then comes getting your first set of users sales and then the way you mentioned it sale like marketing is kind of sales at scale for like a minimalist entrepreneur you're basically making your sales process repeatable what skills are like how should someone go about learning what's enough like should they just learn on the job in a sense like keep trying projects keep doing things should like they should read your book how should people think about developing the skills they need to be successful minimal entrepreneurs yeah i mean i definitely think you kind of just learn as you go like i think it's kind of like you ever pack for a trip and then you forget something and it's like

Starting point is 00:39:43 it or you've tested this the crap out of your signup form and then you give it to like your brother and then within a second they like do something that breaks it and you're like how is that even possible and it's just they're thinking about it totally differently than you were thinking about it so you thought you were testing everything but you were really just testing the way that you thought about it that which is like a limited set of inputs etc and packing is kind of similar like you think you're being sort of comprehensive but no plan survives contact with the enemy i think you just you you can think you're doing as good of a job as you can but ultimately you have to kind of go out there into the real world with your map and realize like oh crap like this map is actually not that accurate. I know where I can hear my customers all the way

Starting point is 00:40:28 over there. I can, I can hear product market fit, I guess, all the way over. And I can maybe ring a bell every once in a while, which is like shipping a product or tweeting or something. But ultimately like it's a forest and I just have to like, you know, weave my way through and I might hit a wall and I have to go somewhere else. Right. And that's just, that's just life. And it's good because if it were easier than that, more people would do it and you'd have a lot more competition. It'd be a lot harder, right. To be successful. And so, yeah, I really think like you just have to start, you just have to put your stuff out there. You have to ship, you have to get market feedback on that. I think sort of people think they need mentor advice. I think you need mentor market feedback. And I think about this with investing, like ultimately you invest and then you use it's

Starting point is 00:41:08 very objective, right? How did you do? And unfortunately, like software shipping, entrepreneurship is not as objective as that. There's smart people who fail and there's dumb people who succeed. Like it's sort of stochastic and random to a large degree, but that's why you have to do, you have to kind of place multiple bets, right? You don't start one company per life. You start 10, right? You might start one if it works, but otherwise you should start many more. And your goal is to kind of be successful as an entrepreneur, not necessarily on each and every business idea that you have.

Starting point is 00:41:40 I think reading does kind of help, but honestly, and maybe like I would think about learning from like, well, what did the MVP of Airbnb look like or Facebook? Just learning about the origin stories of some of these companies, I think may be helpful, but mostly it's just a reminder that it's not that much. And one of the reasons I love weekend projects as an idea is because it forces that on you, right? You could build Facebook in a weekend, like that, obviously not the whole thing, but like I'm meta now, but like you could build the MVP of Facebook, right? You could build Facebook in a weekend. Like that, obviously not the whole thing, but like I'm meta now, but like you could build the MVP of Facebook, right? The thing that

Starting point is 00:42:10 Zuckerberg launched on the Harvard campus. You could build the MVP for Twitter. Certainly people would joke all the time. Like why is Twitter worth hundreds of millions of dollars? You could build this in Ruby on, in a weekend, right? And it turns out it's not the technology that makes it worthwhile. I would really, I always think about that. Like what can I build in a weekend, right? And it turns out it's not the technology that makes it worthwhile. I really, I always think about that. Like what can I build in a weekend? And maybe that obviously Tesla is not going to fit in that bucket. It doesn't work for everything, but certainly for your first successful business, I think it's a pretty good heuristic and it'll cause you to whittle it down. I have this set of YouTube videos on YouTube called Weekend Project Weekend, which is basically a weekend in

Starting point is 00:42:45 which I built a weekend project called verificationletters.com, which is like a super simple site. You go there and you fill it out with your information. You get an accreditation letter if you qualify from a licensed CPA who happens to be my mom. And I wanted to just show people that it's possible. Here's an example, live streamed in public. Anyone can go watch it. Thousands of people have. And as part of that live stream, I literally had to like whittle down the functionality of the product as I was reaching Sunday night, which is, it's great to have that documented, but it's, it's true. It's like, it's sort of Parkinson's law, right? It kind of works both ways. Either you make the deadline because you just work and

Starting point is 00:43:25 you kind of get everything done, or you just make the deadline because you say, oh, we don't actually need that, right? Do we need that day we launch or can we get it tomorrow? Okay, if we can get it tomorrow, then we should go to bed. And so I think that's really important. If you set a goal, like I'm going to ship 12 apps in 2022, for example, I think that's a really great way to get to that point where you have that sort of almost natural ability to say, oh, this is the right MVP, right? If you draw like a curve, it's probably asymptotic, right? In terms of how much of the sort of customer's problem or sort of distance to product market fit you are in the sense that product market fit is somewhere between zero and 10. In five days, you could be at four. In 10 days, you could be at five. In a year, you could be at

Starting point is 00:44:12 six. In 10 years, you could be at seven. And you don't really know where product market fit is. And so it's kind of asymptotic. And so I think to get to that, to know where that is, I think just takes practice. And the only way you're going to get that is many many attempts on goal so one question that I have is there's a lot of people like there's a lot of software engineers in general and some of them will read about these ideas they'll resonate with them they'll follow people on twitter and they'll see these things how do i know that it's the right fit for me like how do i know that i should be trying these side projects like it's one thing to resonate with this idea of entrepreneurship but it's another thing of leaving like a cushy job and definitely there's like personal priorities but is there something that i should be thinking about in terms of like my personality?

Starting point is 00:45:07 Or in general, like, how do I decide that I should go on to this path of trying these projects, being gritty about it when things fail, because things certainly will? Or is it just try it? If you hate it, go back. I do think you should have a good sense of whether you're going to like this or not. I don't think it's worth kind of quitting your job and dropping out of school because you think it might work for you. For example, like one thing I really value is autonomy, right?

Starting point is 00:45:38 Like I really like the fact that no one else has control of my calendar. I can work wherever I want, whenever I want, with whomever I want, because I get to hire everybody. And so entrepreneurship is kind of the only career path for that, right? And so it really, I think, depends on what do you really highly value. And depending on what that thing is, I think your answer to is entrepreneurship the right answer will vary. For example, if you're like, my goal is to be worth $25 million by the time I'm 50 and I'm okay, it doesn't really matter what gets me there as long as I don't work past 5 p.m. any day. Then it's like, well, you should probably just go work at Google, right? Which is totally great. But yeah,

Starting point is 00:46:21 I think you should just kind of know what you want. And I really wanted to build stuff, ship different products and build a great team, but not let the business own myself. And that's kind of what led me to this. I think Naval had a good tweet, which was something like the only two questions that really matter are like, what do you want? And did you get it or something like that? Right. And so I think, what do you, what do you want is, is, is even a question. Many people don't have the answer to like, I thought I wanted a billion dollar company, but I actually didn't ever really want a billion dollar company. I wanted validation from my peers that I was good at building stuff.

Starting point is 00:46:57 That's what I really wanted. And actually, ironically, writing that blog post gave me that. And so it kind of fulfilled the thing that building a billion dollar company would have fulfilled. And by the way, probably better, right. Much better, actually like no comparison. I don't think a billion dollar company would have fulfilled me at all because numbers just get bigger over time. So, yeah. So yeah, I think it, it is a personality thing, but listen to, I don't know, you know,

Starting point is 00:47:24 podcast interviews. And if you think you'd get along with people like me and patrick callison and whoever else like then it might be a great fit for you right like you can probably triangulate the kind of personality you need based on the personalities of other successful you know tech ceos etc and by the way you might hate us right you might be like wow i do not want to spend a second all these people do is talk about freaking crypto all day long right and then yeah okay maybe not for you like that's also fine there's many many avenues in life to go down yeah you can dislike crypto and still yeah Yeah, crypto is hypothetical. Yeah, not that specific.

Starting point is 00:48:05 Yeah, exactly. What's next for you, right? So you've always spoken about having like a portfolio of bets. You're doing a bunch of different things, which are all interesting in that one, right? Like running Gumroad, running courses, a VC fund. Is there anything new and exciting you're thinking about? New projects, anything at all?

Starting point is 00:48:24 What's next for you? Oh man, so much, so much. I can't even open up my Notion and check what's up. Yeah, I mean, there's like the micro stuff. I have kind of three distinct areas. At least this is how I think about myself and my sort of career. I have the sort of founder, investor, and creator lens. So it's kind of a three-legged stool and in

Starting point is 00:48:46 almost like portfolio diversification. If one thing goes really well or doesn't, the other two things kind of balance it out. But Gumroad obviously kind of fulfills the founder thing. And I don't intend to start a new company anytime soon. So that's just kind of making Gumroad better and better. And we just did this big rebrand that everyone can check out, gumroad.com. It's awesome. And we did it the way that we work, which is no meetings, no deadlines, no full-time. Actually, we had one deadline, I guess, which was a Black Friday, which is the day we shipped and no full-time employees. And then the investing side, which is just thinking creatively about how to scale that

Starting point is 00:49:16 up and innovate on the venture capital funding model. And so I have a lot of ideas around how to do that. Those things actually merge in this idea around liquidity. I've been spending a lot of my time thinking about liquidity generally, I think is a really kind of important idea that obviously exists in the public markets, exists in crypto, but doesn't really exist in startups. And I think could provide a lot of value to startups if you could figure it out. There's a bunch of reasons. It's not currently possible today, but there's no reason it shouldn't be possible soon. And so, and I think Gumroad is well-positioned

Starting point is 00:49:47 with our recent crowdfunding round and my sort of my audience, I guess, size and other things to demand generation, et cetera. I think I'm spending a lot of time thinking about that. Hopefully have news on that. Hopefully as soon as Q1 of 2022. And then Gumroad, oh yeah, sorry. And then Creator, it's just a book.

Starting point is 00:50:02 I mean, that's pretty boring. I'm teaching another course cohort in February. I'm going to try to actually put the whole thing on YouTube. So everyone, there'll be like a limited number of students, but then everyone can potentially watch the content, which hopefully will be cool. And then I'm doing a chapter club on Clubhouse, probably in January, maybe a chapter Clubhouse. I don't know if we can make that a thing but basically a book club except every week i'll do a chapter of the minimalist entrepreneur or something like that but yeah nothing honestly nothing too crazy like very iterative like i think about okay what do i have what can i do next with this these assets i am thinking about crypto with with with gumroad we haven't found like the right angle i think it's

Starting point is 00:50:42 very sexy it's very easy to jump on the bandwagon, but I think I'm ready. We kind of have like one chance to do the right, like the right approach. And I still think it's very early. I think everyone has FOMO. I still think it's very early days, so we're not in a rush, but I'm thinking about how do we use crypto in a way that serves our creators? Most of whom are not fans of crypto at all, actually. So well, it'll be an interesting kind of conversation when we when we are willing to have it i have some other ideas that i can get into but but that's kind of like the 2022 like q1 q2 of 2022 my focus as like a startup employee i am especially interested in the

Starting point is 00:51:18 liquidity stuff which whenever you release that i'm subscribed on like the mailing list so yeah i can tell you a little bit about it so gum Gumroad did this crowdfunding round in March, March 15th, 2021. We were the first startup, I believe, to do the $5 million raise because it was the first day you could. But part of that, part of the regulation crowdfunding rules in the sort of federal registry is that after a year, that's a one-year lockup. But in theory, after a year, your investors can actually sell their position on a secondary marketplace, if endorsed, I think, by the company. This has never happened before because it hasn't been a year yet. So March 15, 2022, it will have been. But two, you just need enough demand. You need enough liquidity on both sides to make this happen. Uniswap figured this out with liquidity pools and staking.

Starting point is 00:52:07 So maybe you don't even actually really need real liquidity. You could have sort of an automated market maker in a sense. So it's the kind of technology now kind of exists and has been sort of trialed by fire and it has seems to work. And so basically come March 15th, 2022, I would love to build, this is aspirational so far, but it literally is my kind of like number one goal to figure out, which is take the $5 million that we raised and whatever shares they represent and allow them to be listed on the secondary market and allow them to be freely

Starting point is 00:52:35 traded like securities, like public securities. And I think if we can figure that out, there's a couple of things that will happen because of that. One is the price of Gumroad will probably go up, right? Because limited supply, a lot more demand. You see this in crypto most obviously, but you effectively have like really small float and it gets traded like crazy. And so the value of the company goes up a lot, which allows us to potentially raise more money at a much higher valuation and blah, blah, blah, all these sorts of things that I think would be really good. The second order effect of that is every founder is going to be like, wait, what? Gumroad is able to do this. You figured out liquidity without having to IPO the company and you're getting paid for it in the value of the company itself. And because it's liquid, you could potentially get a loan on it.

Starting point is 00:53:16 And there's other unlocks that I think come with liquidity that you get with public equities that you don't get with startup stock as easily at least. And then three, and so I think that will encourage a lot more people to crowdfund because that's the only way to get advantage of this. And so I think that's kind of the second order. And then the third order effect is that I think it could potentially revolution angel investing in startups because the number one reason people do not angel invest in startups and the reason that the SEC is so against the average person investing in startups is because of the illiquidity, right? You invest in a startup and then you don't see any return for years and years and years and years. And it might be a hundred, it might be a zero, most likely it's a zero, right? Which allows for

Starting point is 00:53:55 a lot of fraud, a lot of scams, et cetera, because if most things you invest in go to zero, it's kind of hard to tell what's a scam, right? Because it also went to zero, like all the other startups, right? It's tricky. But I think liquidity makes that a lot easier, right? Because one, you get employees can sell and buy, people close to the company can sell and buy, but you'll have like just like public equities, which there are also scams in the public markets, but you can short companies, right? You can do calls, you can do all these things that you can't really do with startups that will kind of provide that free market regulation, I think, that prevents a lot of these scams and things from happening because I raised $50 million, I have 10 years to burn that

Starting point is 00:54:32 money, right? But if it's a liquid thing, like if Gumroad doesn't perform in three months, the people will sell and get out, right? Just like a public position. And I think that will, if we can figure out the liquidity thing, I think it's going, I hope that that is what the SEC is going to need to see to kind of allow more people to be able to invest in startups. So that's kind of like my plan. If you think about like, okay, what is, what is Sahil about? Like what's his mission or whatever? That's my mission, which is how do I get as many people to own equity

Starting point is 00:55:01 in startups and businesses, software businesses. One is obviously getting people to start them with a minimalist entrepreneur. There's Gumroad. There's being so open. Why am I so open about Gumroad is to hopefully make it easier for more people to do this. And then doing the crowdfunding round, 7,000 investors, the crowd, all the VC fund stuff that I'm doing and trying to evolve upon. It's really just because I think equity ownership is the answer to many problems. And I would love to I think equity ownership is the answer to many problems. And I would love to see more people be able to take advantage of it.

Starting point is 00:55:29 And I think liquidity and certain openness, transparency, et cetera, will get us closer and closer to that. And then ultimately I want to IPO Gumroad. I want to do this kind of partial IPO in a sense, but then ultimately in 2023, I think would be the soonest, but I would love to IPO Gumroad and I would love to do it as a one person company. Yeah. Just like Gumroad is

Starting point is 00:55:49 today, right? Gumroad is just me. It's 42, 41 other people contracting. And so why not? Obviously that sounds crazy. Like most people would be like, you're an idiot. Like the market will destroy you. What if you get hit by a bus? But that's kind of the point. He's like, well, what would happen? And I think people deserve to get to choose what to do with their money. And as long as you're open and transparent about it, I don't think there's a problem. Yeah, there's so many things, right? Like I think 2020 or 2021 was like the first time a remote company went public. And a couple of years, probably first time a single person

Starting point is 00:56:26 company goes public like things are changing yeah like when coinbase ipo'd it was the first company without a proper hq i think and then when gitlab ipo'd not too long after that it was like the company i think without a single office anywhere, like completely remote. And so eventually you're going to have a company IPO with no meetings and then a company IPO with like pseudonymous people working on it. Like there's this stuff is going to happen slowly. And I think, yeah, maybe, maybe Gumride will be the first one person company. I'd have to convince some people, but the nice thing about, you know, working with investors is they only see green, right? So if you can convince them that it's an interesting business opportunity, then

Starting point is 00:57:08 I think they'll do it. And that is not necessarily predicated on if you're doing things the way that other people have been doing them. I suspect the reasons Coinbase and GitLab were the first was because they were doing very well, right? So they kind of get away with doing stuff a little bit weird sometimes. Or Elon gets to be CEO of multiple public companies at the same time, or at least one public company, one private company, maybe, I don't know exactly what, but, or Jack with Square and Twitter up until yesterday, being awesome and building cool stuff. And it gets you leverage and then you can go use that leverage to kind of fight for more things that you want to see in the world.

Starting point is 00:57:43 Well, Sahil, thank you so much for pushing the boundaries on all of these things and sharing your knowledge with everyone. I think it helps the industry and it helps inspire people to actually take up entrepreneurship. I certainly think you are achieving part of that mission because there's so many resources that people like you and you share out that at least software engineers like me feel inspired to just try out projects. Like I am working on my first project now after like just leaving side projects for like four or five years. Just because that key idea of I can keep trying things and if it doesn't work, that's fine.

Starting point is 00:58:21 You learn something, right? The product that you're building, the product that you're really building is your brain side projects are just kind of like a tool to get to make you smarter and get you more prepared so when the right thing comes around you'll be in a better place to take advantage of it yeah that's a tweet book quote yeah thank you again yeah thank you thank you Thank you again. Thank you. Thank you. Same. Bye.

Software at Scale - Software at Scale 41 - Minimal Entrepreneurship with Sahil Lavingia

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