SOLVED with Mark Manson - How to Give Up Everything to Save Yourself (ft. Matt from Yes Theory)

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

In 2021, Matt from Yes Theory, one of YouTube's biggest channels, revealed he was quitting the platform.Despite being an internet celebrity, Matt's story is a common one—about someone who gave away too much of themselves to be liked by others, and now desperately trying to get themselves back. In this episode, Matt and I unpack this familiar dilemma, as well as covering topics like codependence, managing success, dealing with parasocial relationships, determining when vulnerability goes too far, and much more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, before we get into it, if you listen to the show, you probably consume a lot of personal growth content. The books, the podcasts, YouTube videos, all of it. And you've probably noticed the gap between knowing what to do and then actually going out and doing it. You've got the insights, but what you don't have is something that connects them to your actual life. That's why I built purpose. It's a personal development AI that learns you, your patterns, your blind spots, all the stuff that you keep circling back to over and over again. Instead of handing you another framework, it gives you specific personalized direction.

So check it out. You can try it for free for seven days. Go to purpose.app. That is purpose. That is purpose. Imagine this. You're 20 years old, broke and working as a dishwasher in a restaurant. And one night, a new friend that you just met comes over and tells you about an idea that he had for a YouTube channel.

You guys get excited and you decide to do it together. Now imagine these videos go so well that within six months you and your new friend are getting millions of views, being flown to Los Angeles, meeting up with billionaires and tycoons, and receiving massive checks to create as much content as you possibly. can. Jump ahead seven years and you've made hundreds of videos, have millions of followers, and become famous worldwide. Your videos have been viewed over one billion times. That is billion with a B. And yet, at the peak of your fame and fortune, you decide to hang it up. This is the story of today's guest. Matt Dahlia, one of the co-founders of Yes Theory, one of the most popular YouTube

channels in the world, a channel that began as four friends traveling the world, challenging each other to say yes to some of life's most crazy adventures. Matt and I will talk about how it's possible to have a codependent relationship with an audience. We talk about the perils of experiencing too much success too quickly and the courage that it takes to stand up for yourself even when it means giving up your life's dream. I'm excited for this episode, not just because Matt's a friend of mine and his story is so crazy and unique, but simply because it's so rare to come across someone who is so successful yet completely candid about their struggles and fears. What we'll discover is that at its core, Matt's story is actually a very common one.

It's about someone who gave away too much of themselves to be liked and admired by others. And now, as a grown adult in his 30s, he is desperately trying to get that back. So stick around for this one. It's going to be fucking crazy. Bro. Do you even podcast? Like bro. This is the subtle art of not giving a fuck podcast with your host, Mark Manson.

So in a recent study, they asked six to 17-year-olds what they wanted to be when they grew up. And the number one answer, by far, probably don't even have to tell you. It's a YouTuber. The answer was three times more common than an astronaut or any sort of professional athlete. All the kids want to become a YouTuber. That's the dream. You became a famous YouTuber at a young age. your early 20s, grew a massive channel and then called it quits. So what the fuck do? You're

giving up the dream. What's going on here? Six year old me would be like, you idiot. You ruined everything. You had a plan. You had it all. What the fuck happened? That is a great question. To give a little bit of context, we started getting quite big in 2018 and we'd been living in LA for a year and it was like, holy shit, we're growing so fast, like all these famous people want to work with us and it's turning into this thing, like this dream that we had because up to that point, you know, it was kind of just an idea. It was a big dream. And I actually went back and read my diary during that time. And there was one diary entry where I could see the first signs of not being able to continue for much longer. And it was essentially saying I

about four to five times a day introduce myself to new people in my own house. So we have people coming in constantly because we're recording, at the time we were doing three videos a week. So we were just recording constantly with strangers and people and throwing events and parties. And

you know, our channel was yes theory, saying yes to things. So we were just constantly saying yes even when we didn't necessarily feel like it. And it was the first glimpse in that diary entry of like, I don't actually level this part or actually a lot of it. And at the time, I had no idea that I was more introverted than I thought. Like, YouTube

oftentimes requires this big extroversion, or at least this kind of fake extroversion. Like, I don't know fake is the best word, but you turn it on. You turn it on. Yeah. I was going to say talking heads. Yeah. I don't want to insults. I was like, but oftentimes, you know, especially like comedian talking heads. Like I've met quite a few of them where on camera they're like very expressive and loud and funny and then you meet them in person. They're way more introverted. And for me, it's live events. It's like there's a switch that goes on and it's like, okay, just get through the night. You could stay in the hotel quietly all day tomorrow. Reflect on how horrible you feel. So you've got all these people coming into your house

shooting videos all the time. There are two things that stand out about that, that are potentially very stressful or difficult to deal with. One is the lack of any barrier between public and private. I think any time you don't have like a clear me space or me time in your life, yeah, things just get bad pretty quickly. And the second thing, I think, is this feeling that you always need to be on and performing, right? The camera's always on. So not only are these people coming into your house,

but you have to pretend to like them, even if you don't. You have to pretend to be having fun, even if you're not. You have to pretend to be excited about whatever they're talking about, even if you don't care. And I think it's just like basic human psychology. That doesn't work for a long period of time. Yeah. Was there any awareness around this at the time where you like,

I need a week off or I need like space, I need a break? Can we do two videos a week? instead of three, you know, anything like that, any conversations around that? I think YouTube attracts a particular kind of person. Like this stat that you just shared of kids wanting to be YouTubers. Like the amount of people that I've met that have started to try doing YouTube, especially young people, and then quit pretty quickly because they realize it's not healthy for them is actually quite high.

So there's actually very few people I know who have kept creating and succeeded. When you bring up these questions, it goes back to psychology as well. It's like, how was I raised? What was I taught as a kid? And obviously, my parents taught me amazing qualities and taught me to work hard. But there's a thing my mom would always say growing up is never say, I'm lazy. Not allowed in the house. You were literally not allowed to out of those words.

And so the concept of taking a break. felt very contradictory to how I was raised. And then the second thing is I was also raised in an environment because we moved when I was quite young. And both of my siblings are quite introverted. And I was the most extroverted of the three of us. And so when we would go to parties and we didn't know many people in the neighborhood,

I almost felt like this, like the diplomat. Like I would show up and be this guy that would put on the show and bring people around him. And, you know, everybody loved Matt. And Matt was the handshaker and, like, Joe Crack. I'm gonna be afraid of myself. You're the Fonzie of the neighborhood. And I think that honestly translated to YouTube.

And I translated to the way Yes theory operated. It was actually a joke between Thomas Amar and I, like my two co-founders. Because they're also quite extroverted, but they didn't have this need to please as much as I did. And so we would be, we would throw these like huge events. And I would find myself at like two in the morning in this conversation that, I didn't want to be in out of just pure obligation. And I couldn't find them anywhere. And they'd left two hours before to go to their rooms and just kind of take a breather

or left the house entirely. And it became this common joke that if you were in a circle with Matt, he would keep the conversation up and you could just leave because he would take care of the social part. And I kind of prided myself on that for a long time. But I think that was a huge part of what made it exhausting. because, I mean, I don't know if you've experienced this with YouTube, but it's so different from, like, being an actor. When you're an actor, there's this kind of understanding that you're playing a role. Like, this isn't actually you.

You're on set. You're on set. Yeah. When you're offset, it's over. It's a dude. But with YouTube, there's this idea of like, oh, this is Mark. And this is how Mark is always. And so if I walk up to Mark, you know, it's this parisocial thing.

he's going to be just like he is in his videos. So there is this pressure to be that guy. Like, I got to be like, I'm fucking outgoing. I'm going to listen to you. I'm going to make you feel seen. And that is a true part of me. But after a while, I think the reason for the burnout, a big part of it was I just got super tired of that role.

In everything that we just talked about, if you replace YouTube with, I think, any sort of relationship, you would probably. see a very similar result. Like when when people grow up in family structures with, maybe without strong boundaries in certain areas, they grow up in interrelationships without strong boundaries in those same areas. And it just so happens that your relationship was this massive relationship with a fan base of five or 10 million people.

But it's the same core issue, right? It's like it never felt appropriate for you to say, no, I need me time when you're young. And so when you're put in a situation as an adult, a very highly stressful situation, by the way, that I think most people would struggle to handle well. That same thing pops up. Like, you don't feel okay saying no.

We're backing off. Do you experience that? Because, I mean, even we had this conversation, like with the size, obviously, of your YouTube audience, but also your newsletter is massive. Like, do you feel this obligation to sometimes overshare part of your life? I used to when I started.

It's interesting watching, I'm going to sound like an old man now. It's interesting watching your generation, the generation behind me coming up. Because I was, I look back now and I think to myself, thank God I didn't blow up until my late 20s. Because I already had a lot of years to fuck up and make a lot of mistakes and figure myself out, figure out how to relate to people a little bit better. And even then, the rate of my audience growth early on, like it was pretty gradual the first three or four years with the blog. Back then, blogging grew at a much slower pace than like YouTube does these days or TikTok or Instagram.

So I had more time to kind of accustom myself to it and figure out, like, find some of these pitfalls and adjust for them. Whereas I look at you guys' story, like reading your book that's about to come out, your trajectory was so insanely steep and at such a young age. To me, actually, what's crazy is that you guys are still friends. It's crazy that there's still a yes theory at all. It's remarkable that more things didn't go wrong in you guys' case. It was going to sound really bougie, but I was getting a massage. and and, fuck yeah.

Fuck yeah, dude. Treated myself. That's what we weren't for. Yeah. And I had this moment in mid-massage where I was like, wow, I'm still, so much a part of me is still high school mat. And in a way, it feels like I started yesterday almost out of high school. Like I had done college, but that mentality had stuck. And when you're so.

busy making content. There is literally no time to pause, process, reflect. And so in a way, you kind of stay in the mentality that you were in before you got famous. Yeah. And so, you know, I'm 31 now, but I have this feeling and this is probably not going to sound very inspiring. But I'm like, holy shit, I'm still like 19 year old Matt. And I've done all this crazy stuff and had all the success. But I, I, I, I, I feel like I haven't in many ways matured out of that guy. But again, and this isn't meant to like diminish your experience at all, but it's, it's, to me, it's remarkable, the parallel, people who get out of unhealthy marriages, let's say somebody gets married at 20, it's a bad marriage, they stick in it till they're

31, right? And they come out of it. They often have a very similar experience of like, they still feel, they kind of go back to who they were at 19. before they got into the marriage. And I think a big reason for that is, I think comes back to the performing thing. It's like when you go into a bad marriage or a bad relationship, you kind of hide your real self

and you start performing to keep the other person happy. And you're like, well, if I can just perform a little bit more, things will be okay, things will get better, they'll be happy, then I'll be happy. And it just kind of, it gets in this like ugly cycle. And then eventually it, falls apart because that's not sustainable. But I've talked to at this point, hundreds, maybe even thousands of people over the course of my career who are like, I'm 30, I'm 40,

I'm 50, I was in a bad marriage for 20 years. And I feel like I'm 20 again because I never lived for myself during those interim years. They kind of put their identity off to the side and then like pretended to be this other thing. And then when they come back, it's like, yeah, It's still the old 20-year-old self sitting there on the sideline. And I think that's why a lot of times you see like middle-aged divorce people, like going to nightclubs and like smoking pot for the first time. I guess because you've seen so many case studies, what are examples of people learning to mature? Like how do they, how do the success stories usually unfold?

It's easy to sit here and poke fun. at, you know, 40-year-olds going to nightclubs and taking Molly for the first time. But I do think there's a certain amount of that that's really important and healthy. You need to figure out who you are. And if you've, whether it's a marriage or a YouTube channel, if you've kind of spent the last eight years of your life, kind of putting on a front or performing all the time, you need to go back and finish that project of like, okay, who am I? let me try all these things.

Let me try out a bunch of activities and hobbies and identities and relationships and see what feels right for me. And so I think just granting yourself the freedom to do that is like super healthy. And I mean, what I love about what you've done with the guys is that it seems like you've really patched the relationships with the yes theory guys. I get no sense of like bitterness or resentment. Like those friendships are still intact. you still have, like, great things from that period of your life that you can honor that period of your life with.

But I feel like I'm, like, starting the cycle analyze you, but dude, I love this. I need this, dude. Like, it's just like therapy. Please keep going. Keep going. No, but it's funny, like, hearing you, and we've talked a little bit privately about your experience. But, like, it really feels like you had a codependent relationship with a YouTube channel. And that on the surface, that sentence sounds absurd, but people have codependent relationships. They have codependent relationships with their churches and religious groups. They have codependent relationships with self-help gurus. People have codependent relationships with a lot of different things and I think it's very easy to see especially somebody as young as you were when yesterday started

Nobody knows who they are when they're 20 right and so when you get this massive thing dumped on you It's very hard to stay aligned and stay true to yourself during that kind of rocket ship that takes off with you just like desperately hanging out to the side of it. Yeah. And you kind of have no choice. Yeah. Because I mean, yeah, I was literally washing dishes at 22 and 24. I'm, you know, we're starting on, like, we're gaining hundreds of thousands of followers.

And, you know, it's like the first actual success of my life up until that point. Yeah, I'd gotten A's on essays in school. But I was like, wait. That's not success. Yeah. But there's like 50-year-old successful businessman that want to talk to us about what we're doing. So you feel like it's this very fragile thing. And if you let go of it, then you have to start, like, I have to be that kid in the restaurant,

like scrubbing dishes at 3 a.m again. And I don't want to be that guy. For sure. So there's this like deep, deep fear of going back. And so, yeah. It's very similar to like, say, music or TV film. You understand that it's like one in a million make it. Yeah.

So if you start making it, you know, top priorities are like, Don't fuck this up. Don't derail the train while it's moving. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's like it's big wave surfing. That's kind of the analogy I uses. Oh, yeah.

The last thing you want to do is jump off. Yeah. Because you're just going to crumble. It's going to suck more. Yeah. Just finish riding the wave and then think about what just happened. Yeah. Kind of just like walk us through the timeline of how quickly everything happened.

So in 2014, I'm washing dishes in Montreal, like a few months out of a couple of college and obviously like very confused about what I want to do with my life and I had started this very small clothing startup, the streetwear brand. I was like this is going to be the thing. It's going to blow up. I'm going to be a successful entrepreneur. And then after about six months, I realized that having a business is fucking impossibly difficult. And at the time I was looking for help. So I found this class at the school I used to go to, which was doing like marketing, like consulting for local businesses and using their students to consult. And one of the students that I, that was consulting for my business was Thomas. And Thomas had a small YouTube channel. And I was noticing how like,

YouTube was still quite new, but I was seeing how brands were starting to come from these big audiences online. I was like, holy shit, if I just convince a YouTuber to shout out my brand, like that'll bring a lot of traction. And so I eventually convinced Thomas to make a video with me. We make a video. We do a shout at the end for my clothing company. doesn't sell any clothes, but we, it's like, wow, we had this, like, really intense bond, and it's really fun. And so then we decide to do the 30 things in 30 days that we've never done before. And then very, almost like, like you said, it happens so fast that even in the book,

it felt crazy to write it because it's like, how do I make this sound real? Because it sounds fake. Like, Amar, literally the third co-founder, is walking down the street one night and here's this party upstairs, which Thomas is at. So Amar sneaks up to the party out of curiosity, says, hi to it. everybody meets Thomas, Thomas tells him about him and I doing our YouTube thing. Amar's like, I'd love to help. Mar comes in, and we meet a fourth co-founder, Darren, serendipitously. We filmed us 30 things and 30 days together in Montreal.

I might as well continue after this because we had so much fun. How many followers did you guys have? At the end of the month, probably 1,500. It was steadily growing. I mean, when you cross 1,000, you're like, that's a thousand. Yeah, I mean, it usually takes people years. Yeah, yeah, that's why. And we had one big viral video like on day 19.

So it could feel like, oh, this is unusual. Like this doesn't usually happen, this kind of traction. And then, you know, four months in, we get this email from Liz Murdoch's team who are starting a channel with Snapchat. And they say we love what you guys are doing. We want this kind of content to be on Snapchat on the front page where millions of people are going to watch. You'll still be able to make your YouTube videos, but now you'll get this extra boost from Snapchat. And on top of that, we'll pay you 50K to film for four months wherever you want. And again, I mean, Amarst, when I think about it, I'm like, wow, he's 21 at the time.

Yeah. Like, imagine $50,000 to a 21-year-old. Like, what? And you guys haven't even known each other for six months. Not even. Four. Four months. Yeah.

And you're getting offered 50K and basically. And just continue being best friends. Yeah. Just keep being best friends. That's all that fucking matters. It's just your relationship and how much fun you guys are having together. And so Snapchat flies us out to L.A. We end up on the front page of Snapchat.

Millions of people watch us on Snapchat within a year. We have hundreds of thousands of people moving over to our YouTube channel. So I think within like about a year and a half to two years, we had like 200, 300,000 subscribers. Three years, we had a million. And so there was no moment. of, hey, hold on, this is not working. Let's pivot. Let's do something else.

It was like, no, this is from the get goes. Everything worked. Holy shit. So I actually don't even know. I don't understand the struggle of, like, when I hear people talk to me about, like, dude, I've been grinding on this for three years and I just don't know what to do. Yeah. I can't relate.

I just don't understand that process. So I can't really give advice. But at the same time, yeah, I paid a price for that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's interesting. So Morgan Housel, the finance writer, was on this podcast a few weeks ago. Love it. And he said something really great. He said that one of the worst things that can happen to an investor is they make a bunch of money really quickly because they mistakenly convince themselves that they're really good. And it gets them into a lot of trouble later on because they never develop the good habits from those failures that are necessary to make it. it sustainable in a long run. I wonder if there's a, you know, there's a crossover there. Like if there's like an analogy there of too much success, too fast, not learning maybe some of

the necessary lessons. And this kind of comes back to your question to me. It's like my audience grew slowly enough and I had enough like bad decisions that didn't work that I think by the time I did blow up, I had developed a pretty good boundary. with between myself and my audience. Like I understood like, okay, this is the part of my life that I'm going to keep for myself and I'm not going to share it. And then this is the part of my life

that I'm going to share and is open to everybody. And for me, that was a very, very important process. I actually watched the Morgan Housel interview and there was a, I think he referenced what Will said about fame. Yeah. You know, that there's nothing worse

than losing fame. Yeah. And, you know, he became obviously famous at a very young age. on a whole different level, you know, so I can't even comprehend that. But there does grow this, like if this is all you've known as the success as soon as it starts to dip, not even like the views necessarily, but if people start getting frustrated with you or the criticisms start coming in, you're not adapted for that, you know,

because people love the rocket ship, but they don't love it when the rocket gets kind of steady. And, you know, they want to be part of the wave. but as soon as it becomes this big thing, I think more criticism starts to come in. And so, yeah, it became this, like, intense pressure to please, like constantly, please, please, please, please at all cost. And like you were saying, you know, it's developed this codependent relationship with it where the second you feel like you've made them mad or angry,

you almost change your whole personality to kind of, you know. You're like, no, wait, guys. Yeah, no, no, really. I'm still fun. I'm still fun. Yeah, dude. Yeah. Yeah. And then the lack of boundaries thing. I mean, dude, I look back on some of the shit we did is crazy. Yeah. One episode in particular, to me, is absurd to think about now. But Amar surprised me on this blind date to roam with a girl. This, like, beautiful Australian girl. And it was going to be this, like, full day of adventures and the best blind date of all time. And, uh, I'm just, uh, We filmed the episode and her and I have this actual connection and we start seeing each other. I was in Europe at the time. She lived in Paris. So we spent a few weeks together. And then I moved back to L.A.

And there was this thing of like, how do we, like, what do we do? Who, you know, what is this relationship now? And I hadn't given her an answer. But in my mind, I was like, there's no way I'm going to keep this up. So I was like, I'm just going to let the audience know because there's. there's so many people asking what happened to Matt and this girl. Yeah. And so I made a post on our Instagram being like a photo of me and her.

I was like, hey guys, just so you know, we're not seeing each other anymore. We had a really great time. Yeah. Obviously, you know, long distance, et cetera. And then the next day I got a call from her being like, are you out of your mind? It's like, wait, had you told her yet? Hadn't told her. No.

I hadn't mentioned it. I told thousands of random strangers. You broke up with a girl by posting on Instagram. To like hundreds of thousands of people. Yeah, yeah. But that goes to show you how, like almost the disease. How skewed, yeah, just how. You're so lost in this world where you're so obsessed with what these strangers think about you,

that this person that you have a connection with almost like goes to the side. It's like, I mean, I remember actually even waking up next to her in bed one morning. And the first thing, I was, I waited an hour until we crossed 600,000 subscribers. You know, on Social Blade, you used to be able to see it. I don't know if you still can, but like I was just watching these numbers go up. And I'm like in Paris with this girl. And I'm like, when I look back on it and this goes back to me being a high school kid, now going forward, like those are the moments where I want to be like, put the phone away.

Yeah. Be present. This is living. You're not, you don't need to perform. You don't need to please all these people. Do you think some of it was you were afraid to have those moments to actually live your life? Like you didn't know who you were. So if you did put the phone away at that moment, it was terrifying.

Horrifying. Yeah. Yeah. And now having done more inner work, I can see why. I avoided it. there's a lot of scary shit to look at. And the performance is, it's nice because it's familiar. Yeah.

Yeah. I bet there's a lot of classic Hollywood celebrity stories that are similar to that. There was a little bit of that with Will's story. Because Will, I mean, even reading the book you guys wrote, like there's, but he's like going from music to TV show and then TV show to movies. He became an absolute workaholic and he could always justify it because, you know, he's on a rocket show. And nobody wants to stop the rocket ship when it's going. But yeah, a lot of it was just avoiding, dealing with a lot of family pain and childhood stuff and stuff with his dad. Do you feel like for you dealt with that stuff in your 20s, like you were saying?

Not all of it, but I think, again, I remember very early on when I was blogging. I was probably three or four years in the blogging. And I really, I noticed that there were certain things in my personal life that, felt very good to write about and there were certain things in my personal life that felt really bad to write about like just internally yeah I mean I never had an experience as extreme as the one with that that girl but there were definitely some things in my personal life that I wrote and after it went up and I started getting comments and responses on it I was like wow this feels terrible like I kind of wish I didn't write this I don't want to know what people think about because you hadn't fully processed it or it was too personal too personal too sensitive I don't remember exactly when but it was a few years years in, I just kind of came to this realization, because it really started making me miserable. Because I felt the same thing. I think most creators feel this at some point early in their career of this, trying to find that boundary of what parts of me am I going to share and what parts of me am I going to keep for myself. And I just noticed that it kept making me feel bad,

writing about certain things, certain topics. And then also sometimes people in your personal life read it and send you an angry text message or an angry phone call and we're like, wait, what the fuck? Like, I didn't know you felt this way. Yeah, but the views. Yeah, but the views. I'm killing it. So yeah, I just hit a point where I realized, I'm like, you know, I think for my own sanity, I need to get really clear with myself, like what I'm willing to share and what I'm not. And I think it was kind of, I kind of made the decision that to really try to keep things to, stuff in my past. So like I'm pretty comfortable sharing any sort of problem I've had in the past. Any problem I'm having now in the moment, that I don't share that because the act of sharing it

complicates it. Right. So it's like if I have a problem with my dad, which I did for many years, if I wrote about that, that's just going to make the problem fucking 10 times worse. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so I never wrote about it. And, you know, but it's like once things are good, then maybe at some point it's like I can talk about it. But it's, it seems obvious in retrospect, but when you're young and you're in it and you're still kind of figuring out what those adult relationships look like in your life, it's, it's hard. It's complicated. I will say it's pretty crazy how much vulnerability, obviously, in relationships, but also parasycial relationships works. Like, for example, Amar three years into making videos, got a little bit of

letter from his dad about his dad wasn't happy. He's like a very traditional guy and wasn't happy with the videos Amar was making. And so essentially threatened to disown him. And Amar made the decision of reading the letter to our audience. See, that makes me so uncomfortable. So he's like you're saying, it's opposite of what you're doing. Yeah. In the middle of dealing with this problem, he shared this letter and then reminds people to like stick to their truth. That in a way for us was like a huge turning point because it our audience was really strong and our community was really really believed in us but that literally i think turned people into like super fans like they became obsessed and amar especially got like a ton of people from you know the middle east and people from more traditional backgrounds who

really identified with what he was sharing and i think about it you know there's this line from my one of my favorite artist j cole the rapper uh in one of his songs he says uh he talks uh he talks he talks about like sharing too much with his audience. And he goes, you know me better than I know myself. And he talks about how scary that is. And the music I find that I've connected to the most is the music that's the most real, the most vulnerable, the most personal. And so that line is so freaking hard.

Like I think about, you know, some of my favorite writers like Elizabeth Gilbert. Yeah. You know, Tara Westover with educated, Roxanne Gay. You know, these writers are like really. reveal all their shit. Yeah. And a lot of it's not fully dealt with. And I, even with this book sometimes, like, there, a lot of this stuff that I wrote is

not entirely dealt with. But there's this almost maybe like sacrificial part of me, self-sacrificial part of me, or it's like martyrdom that I hold. And maybe they have it to these writers. But this feeling of like, this is what will connect the most with people. But I do feel afterwards this like, oh, even with the newsletter, sometimes I'll write stuff and just be like, oh. And so I find that now my opinion's changing.

It's like the books that you've written have changed my life. Like I feel truly like I am a pupil of Mark Manson. Like it's funny being here because I do feel like you're an older brother for me in the way that before you even met, I was reading your stuff and just feeling very guided by it. And so there's this sense of, you know, you do reveal some parts of your life in your books in your blog and now in your videos. But you limit it. And I think it almost requires more creativity to find other things to talk about.

Because talking about yourself's easy. You know it's going to connect. You don't have to be that creative about it. But after a while, it does kind of drain you. Amazon presents Jeff versus Taco Truck Salsa. Whether it's Verde, Roja, or the Orange One. For Jeff, trying any salsa is like playing Russian roulette with a flamethrower. Luckily, Jeff saved with Amazon and stocked up on antacids, ginger tea, and milk.

Habaniero? More like habanier, yes. Save the everyday with Amazon. I'm glad you brought up the thing with Amar because I remember seeing that video. And I also remember seeing the, he did a video where he reunited with his death after not seen him for six years. That one made me uncomfortable too. Because my reaction through that whole video was like, dude, this is for you. Like this is not for us

This is for you And you know That was my reaction And and But I think you bring up a good point Like I There's definitely a question of How much is this going to help people?

And I think with in the case of the letter And I think that's something that I never thought of You know Just being fucking white boy from the West Is like how many other Middle Eastern Muslim kids feel the way Struggle with the same thing

that he's struggling with. And when you put that lens on it, it becomes extremely powerful. And it can actually be very liberating because I think social media when it's used the best is when it takes people who are experiencing something difficult in their lives and they feel like they're the only ones experiencing it. And then they see somebody, especially somebody very prominent who's experiencing the same thing and just talking about it, just normalizing it, being like, this is a thing. It's really hard in my life. You know, it might be hard in yours too. I think that's very meaningful for millions of people. If there was anything in my life that I really felt like

talking about this could benefit millions of people who are experiencing the same thing and nobody's talking about it, then I would probably err on the side of like, okay, I'm going to overshare, even though this might make my life more difficult. It's especially tough, I would say, if you're desperate, if you're desperate for success and you want to build, did you share everything? Let it out. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's the, and in a way, yeah, that was the decision we kind of made. Yeah. And so, yeah, the, you let strangers have an opinion about a thing you haven't even started processing it. Then you're 31 years old and you're like, all right.

Now you got to go to therapy. Time for therapy. Yeah. It's also, it's one of those classic kind of naive, idealistic young person things. You know, when I think most people, you know, when you're 25, you're like, I should be able to share everything. I should be able to be who I am in front of anybody all the time and everybody else should feel the same way. And it's like, you get to your 30s. You're like, yeah, life doesn't work that way. Shut it down, dude.

It's way more complicated than that. Dude. Yeah. For people out there who want to do some sort of public-facing career, want to have an audience of some sort. What does a healthy relationship look like? Like, what are the things not to do and what are the things to do? Having this big data pool of creators that I call my friends is like,

you see which ones are more stressed out than others. Yeah. And I've often found. that the creators who are the least stressed out are the ones that don't need it to work. They don't need it to make a ton of money. Yeah. This isn't their one way to make money. It's usually the ones that have like a business and are also, you know, happen to be creators that and have a channel that works. But the second the creating and the ad revenue and the brand deals becomes your main stream of income, you run into this conundrum where it's

It's again, I think that's where the codependency develops. It's like, this thing needs to work. And so you become obsessed with these views, you know. And so I have this big newsletter audience and I'm like, the one thing I cannot do, the one mistake I cannot repeat is to make this my source of income. Because then it just fucks with how I speak to the audience. It fucks with like my relationship with creativity. So down the line, I can see myself, you know, having a business. that's, you know, kind of unrelated to the creator part of it, but also, you know, getting

to speak my mind through writing or speaking. And when I think about, you know, how you started this podcast with the six to 17 year olds and how they all want to be YouTubers, I hear that. And I'm like, dude, like, if the mental health crisis is already bad, imagine how much worse. There's a lot of really interesting research around what they call intrinsic motivation versus is extrinsent motivation. So basically the difference is intrinsic motivation is you're doing this for yourself. You know, you really care deeply about it

or it's just fun, enjoyable, you want to be good at it. Extrinsic motivation is you get paid for it. It's like external incentives pushing you to do something. And what the research finds is that external motivation is really, really good for non-creative tasks. So if you're a plumber or an accountant or data cruncher or whatever,

you know, the external rewards are like very motivating and they feel very good. You know, it's like I've fixed 20 toilets so I get this much money. Like it feels good at the end of the day. What they found is that external motivators kill creative work, like destroy the motivation for creative work. I mean, I feel like people in the creator in economy talk about it a lot more just because the nature of this industry is that we're very open and vulnerable with our audiences. There's a permutation of that conversation that I've run into everybody I know in TV and film I've had that conversation with everybody I know in music I've had that conversation with do you write the song that you know is going to get more streams or do you write the song you want to write do you pitch

the TV pilot that you really care about or do you pitch the TV pilot that is probably going to get picked up by the production company I hear it everywhere it's ever present and in any creative line of work and and the closest thing I've ever heard to any solution comes from Hollywood, which is they, there's a saying in Hollywood, which is you do one for them and one for you. You know, so you do like one Marvel movie that's going to make a shitload of money. So then the studio agrees to Greenlight your passion project that's going to lose a bunch of money. And then you just go back and forth. Yeah.

I mean, for you creatively, has that been the case? Like, have you felt stifled by the extrinsic motivation? Yes. So I felt that a lot in, interestingly, I felt that a lot in traditional media. So, and I think the reason, like with the movie and stuff? Yeah, TV, film and books. I feel that a lot more. I feel a lot more stress and pressure and anxiety doing those projects than I do doing podcast, YouTube, newsletter, blog. Over many, many years, I think I've developed a very good relationship with my. audience where I feel at liberty to try things that don't work because you know when a YouTube channel blows up in a year you probably don't feel a whole lot of liberty to put out a shitty video like you're worried that the audience isn't going to forgive you for it they've only known you for a year they've only watched a few videos whereas I've been

around long enough and my core audience has been around long enough that I know it's like if I put out a bad newsletter or a bad video or something like life's gonna go on it's gonna be okay I've got this like massive library of content And so at this point in my career, it actually feels very liberating to have the freedom to try things, to fail at things. It's like, let's try this new format on YouTube or like, let's try this crazy idea on the podcast. And if it works, great. If it doesn't work, then like, whatever. It's fine.

We'll just iterate and try something else. When you get a big contract from a movie studio or a book publisher, there's no leeway for that. There's no, like, oh, why don't you try a few things and see if they work? It's like, no, no, no, we're writing you a fat fucking check. This better be a hit or there's not going to be another one. And that feels really daunting as a creative person. That's when the pressure comes in. And so, yeah, strangely, I actually feel, I feel happier and healthier in this world.

Wild. Which is weird. So crazy to me. As you're saying that, I'm like, wow, you feel, I think that's maybe why I love your content on YouTube so much just because it feels very almost like innocently free and to your point I don't need the money and you don't need the money so yeah I don't I don't care yeah if I spend thousands of dollars throwing a dude out of a plane in a chicken suit and it doesn't make any money I don't really care yeah yeah yeah

which is an amazing place to be in but it's even before like two minutes before getting here I got a call from a friend who's a YouTuber and we you know I was kind of updating on my life and he was updating me on his and he was like, dude, I'm just kind of sick of the algorithm. I'm sick of the algorithm. So you know what I'm going to do? I was like, I'm going to go for three months to Sardinia and just do pottery. I'm not going to record it.

I'm not going to like make videos on it, whatever. It's perfect. I just want to get good at pottery. And I was like, that is better than any video idea I've ever heard in my whole freaking life because that's not. You do one for them, one for you. Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

That's the one for you. And I think the balance is that is like, whatever that looks like, your version of it. It's like, what hobby do you not post on Instagram? Like, I really love salsa dancing. I want to invest more time in salsa dancing. I'm not going to make videos about salsa dancing. Totally. Because it would spoil it.

Yeah, it would ruin it. Yeah. Because then you're like, God, I got to get so much better with salsa dancing. Otherwise, they're going to stop watching my salsa dance videos. So as you know, like, I'm a huge gamer. I thought you're going to say salsa dance. No, no, no. Terrible salsa dance.

Terrible. But huge gamer. And I'm actually good friends with a guy here in LA who works for a major video game company. And he and I hang out a lot. We were surf buddies. And so whenever we hang out, we start talking about video games. And it was funny, like, when we first became friends, we would have these, like, long, deep conversations about, like, video game design and certain choices that different game publishers make and why this was a good choice and this was a bad choice and why this was a great game. and that was a bad game.

And he told me a few times, he's like, dude, you need to start like a gaming YouTube channel. This is, some of the stuff you say is like so much more interesting than like 90% of the people in the industry. Like everybody in the industry would watch your channel. I'm like, never. I will never fucking do that. Yeah.

Because it's mine. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, my favorite thing to do with my free time. Can I ask you something? Mm. Mm. The video that you had with your wife. Yeah.

Was there a moment for you of like, maybe I shouldn't show this part of my life? Or were you pretty free to? I think at this point we're pretty free. Yeah. The funny thing with my wife is we tried to work together at one point because she's also a creator. She's very good with video and design. And this was years ago. This was before we were married.

She started working, like we started working together for a few months. We fought more in those two months than like our entire. higher rest of our relationship combined. And then finally, finally after that project was done, I was like, we are never working together again, ever, ever. You're amazing,

but like this is, I can't, I can't deal with this. It's, I need separation. Yeah, yeah. So yeah. Yeah, dude,

that's a big lesson. I think the big one I'm taking away is, I think not just in, with work and content. I think just in life in general is setting these boundaries. Yeah. You know, and learning that I don't have to be everything to everybody, I think is the biggest thing.

Yeah. Which, again, goes back to, like, childhood stuff and childhood work and resolving a lot of that. I think my hesitation with doing podcasts, even in releasing the book, is don't know how inspiring it is to say that I don't have it. I don't have the answer and I don't have it figured out. In fact, I feel like the majority of my life has been one giant performance. And I, like, don't actually even know who I fully am. Even the end of the book, I mean, you know, where I'm like, literally ends with me saying, I don't know what I want, so I'm going to go and try and find it, you know.

And so there's this feeling of, like, when you were asking about shame and stuff, I think there's shame around that because I feel like being a public figure and having a platform and stuff, you should have something to say. Yeah. But I'm like, guys, I am just fucking lost. She's like, look directly to camera. I have no fucking clue. Somebody sent help.

Yeah. I love your story because to millions of people, I mean, your, yours is just very public because of the path that you happen to take in life. But millions of fucking people go through the same thing. They get to their 30s and 40s, and they're like, I've been performing for 20 years. I have no fucking clue of who I am or what I want or what I like. And I hear from them all the time get emails every single week from people. Really?

Yeah, all the age group. All the time. It's very common. And it's, it comes back. It's just, I see it as, I think it's a side effect of some sort of codependent relationship. Most common is romantic relationship. But I hear from people, you know, it's the lawyer who worked 90 hours a week for 15 years and then

he had developed crippling depression and hated his life and quit and now is like, who am I? Yeah. What do I want? You know, there's so many permutations of it. Yeah. I think as long as you're just looking at for what's right for you,

hopefully that can give people the courage to do the same thing. And I think the, I think being in a codependent relationship of any kind, there is that sense of martyrdom. Yes. You know, you're sacrificing yourself for this person or this thing. And so to start asking yourself what you want feels very selfish.

And I at least went through this whole process just to get to the point of being allowed to ask myself what I wanted. Yeah. You know, like I had to work through the idea that I even could. And so, yeah, I think it's, uh, yes, there's your inspirational. You want an inspiration, but I've got you. It's like, I've suffered. intensely for years and I still don't know what's right or rug. He put that on a, like a motivational poster.

Too true. How was writing the book? I'm very happy I wrote it, but I hated the majority of it. Yeah, I hated it. Like, I actually hated the actual book itself. Yeah. I had a horrible relationship with it. Because I was like, look at what you're doing to me.

Like, I want to leave this thing. And the book felt like this puzzle that I had to figure out in order to exit. And so for the first year and a half, it was like this intense battle with it where I was like, I just don't want to do this. But I, this is my only way out. And so I felt like I had no choice. and there came this moment last year where I'd written a draft that I wasn't very happy with and that I'd sent to other readers

I really respected for feedback and they were like it's not that good I was like dude I just can't fucking do this I literally have to go and so I called everybody on the team and I was like I'm leaving I appreciate you all I can't do this and then Amar was the only one that was like no you're you can do this like I'm not letting you give up right now I was like this motherfucker

it's like this guy is just like ruining my soul yeah um but after that conversation with him there was this switch where it was like if I'm going to do this it has to be a choice I can't feel forced to do this anymore like I have to decide from the like the bottom of my heart like this is what I want to do. And as soon as I made that decision, it completely transferred into this like much more fun project that I got to do with other people. So I invited one of my best friends who's a really great writer and the fourth co-founder of Yes Theory to come work on it with me, Darren. And so it became this collaborative project. And, you know, I went to Montreal where he lived and we, I got to see where it all started. And so I, that's when the process, like the processing actually really

started to happen and I started to get excited to share and even remembering the good times because it's so easy when you're trying to get out of a thing to remember only the shit times whether it's like a business or a divorce or whatever it's like this was the whole thing was shit the whole thing was shit literally that's the first draft was like this was all shit blah blah I hate everyone goodbye literally I could never talk to me again and then with Darren it was this like wow, this was amazing. You know, what the fuck? This is so unusual that this all happened, so serendipitous.

And I think it really got reflected in the book. Like, the original drafts were actually quite dark, full of anxiety and so much family stuff and, like, blaming everybody. And then the final draft was like, wow, gratitude. Yes, it was really hard. And this is why I'm leaving. But holy shit, like, look at all these moments that we got to live in the lessons with them. It's interesting. I've shared the book with several creators.

And I think almost more than any other people, like, especially YouTubers, the feedback's been the most, like, almost a real positive for me. Because I'm like, I think I'm describing the experience that they never get to share or read in a book, you know. I think, like, there's like athletes and celebrities and stuff who have shared their memoirs or whatever. But I've never read like a YouTuber talking about what it's like to build a. That's true. a YouTube channel or movement behind the scenes. I can't think of one, yeah. Yeah.

So I think it, like to be able to have that relate to other creators, I think is really cool. Yeah. And so I think more than anybody, that's who I'm, I'm excited to get to read it is. Yeah. My fellow, my fellow content creators, like, you're not alone. Like, what is the success function of you guys as a team? The founders of Yasserie were like the Avengers. Mm-hmm.

What is each person's superpower? And why does it work between all of you? Yeah, we're very different. I think that's the key. Very different people. Thomas is the most introverted and the storyteller. Obsessed with storytelling. There was even a moment when I started filming with the boys again.

A few months ago, we took this taxi from London to Morocco. It's like paying a taxi driver $10,000. And they picked me up in Paris and we drove down to Beldu, France. And it was my first time being back and I was like, wow, this is all epic, but also I get to see why it's actually quite tiring. You know, because you're filming and you're traveling and all this stuff. And we get to the hotel at like 10 p.m. And we're in the lobby and we're just kicking it, you know, having a late dinner. And Thomas goes up to the room.

He's like, I'll see you guys later. Goes up to the room. And I'm rooming with him. And I go up to the hotel room like 30 minutes later. And he's just in his boxers. hunched over his laptop editing this specific scene from the thing that we'd filmed

the day before. Wow. Like finding, not even edit, like finding the perfect song for the scene. So someone with that level of obsession for storytelling. Wow.

In that moment, I was like, wow, this guy's just like a born storyteller. And then Amar, Amar is like, I think we had like a creative savant. Like,

he's just pure artist, pure innocent child artistry. And then I'd say for me, almost like this obsession with community, very much focus on like, how do we engage the community? How do we grow it? How do we get them to connect? Which makes sense, because while you were up at 2 a.m. talking to the people you don't want to talk to, Thomas was probably editing video. And Amar was scheming some big idea.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all of this is going to wrap up in two months, all of it. L.A., book, Yes Theory, everything. What are your expectations on the other side of that if you have any and what are your plans? Because one thing, one reason I asked too is just to because there are so many like monumental life shifts happening simultaneously. I think and you definitely seem to have this intent, which is completely understand there's nothing wrong with it. But you definitely seem to have this mentality of like just get to the finish line. It's right there.

I'm almost there. Just get there. Fuck it up. And I think it's just human nature to kind of assume like, okay, once I get across the finish line, things will ease up and be easier. And I think because so many massive identity changes are happening simultaneously, you might actually get to the other side of it and feel really lost again. And really kind of like, fuck, what do I do with myself?

So. Yeah. give you kind of an example that's related to this is I I dated quite a bit during the eight years of yes theory but I never had like a long-term girlfriend and I was always convinced like wow once I have a like a really healthy relationship with the girl I love it'll all be amazing you know yeah I figured out and so then I met this amazing girl uh started dating she became my girlfriend and there's a moment about two months in where I was laying in bed with her, she'd gone to bed. And I got up and I went to my porch. And I just kind of sat there and I was like, holy shit, this is not going to solve

my problem. This is not going to do it. And this was supposed to be the thing. Like the woman was supposed to save me. Yeah, right. Of myself. And so I, yeah, I think having had that experience, I'm aware that the finish line is not really it. Like there's probably going to be a down and I'm kind of prepared for it. You know, I'm kind of expecting it. Yeah. But at the same time, going back to kind of what Morgan Hasel says in his book and on the podcast is like, freedom of choice is such a massive piece of joy of happiness.

And I find that that's what it'll give me more than anything is the freedom to choose. And obviously it'll come with a lot of anxiety as I'm making my choices, but I think once that starts to develop, like, it'll settle a little bit. That's the assumption. Maybe I just completely freaking. Are you planning to take some of it just as vacation? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think I'm going to travel. Cool.

Going to. No cameras. Yeah, no, not a single camera, dude. Not even my phone. Dude. Oh, my God. Literally, I have this visual. of being on a beach, which is so cliche, but just not even with a drink in my hand, just like this.

On a big batch of sand and being like, oh my God, I fucking did it. That'd be a sick drone shot. We could have like an intro and yeah, it's going to be great. We'll start a channel. Matt's day off. Yeah, it's going to be amazing. Perfect. It never ends.

It never ends. It never ends. All right. Well, you've seen the show before so you know that we finish every episode with a round of fuck, Mary Kill. I know I don't have to explain this game to you. We'll start with an easier one, which is fuck Mary Kill, YouTube, book writing, podcasting. Kill, unfortunately.

I'm sorry, YouTube. Mary book writing. Really? Yeah. And then I think... Even after all the pain it put you... Yeah. After a little...

Yeah. I mean, dude, holding your own... book. It's pretty amazing. This is the coolest thing of all time. There's an old saying which is painters love to paint, writers love having written. Which I have experienced with every single book I've done. It's like you're just climbing through the shit. And it's kind of like, you know, it's that scene in Shawshank Redemption where he's like climbing through the sewage. And then he comes out into the rain and he's just like, freedom. Andy Duprein, climb through 500 yards.

So pure shit. That's book writing. That's exactly what book writing is. But, I mean, I'm not married, but marriages I've heard are hard. True. So there's a lot of shit eating in that, too. True. You know, so I feel like that's the marriage I would kind of accept.

All right. And then podcasting, I'd fuck. But I do enjoy podcasting. Yeah. But again, it's the camera thing for me. Like, I think I would be audio only. probably be audio only. Gotcha.

Gotcha. Yeah. Okay. Next one, you've got to see this coming. Fuck Mary Kill. Thomas. No, dude. Darren.

Wow. Wow. It's a forced choice. So, guys, it's my fault. I'm making him do it. The forced choice. Don't hold it against them. I feel married to Darren.

That's the thing, because we wrote the book together. Okay. And that became kind of a marriage. So I'd marry Darren. You guys have kind of like ridden off into the sunset. Kind of, yeah, yeah. And even film the last episode together. Oh, yeah.

Just us too. So, Mary Darren, fucker, kill Thomas Vermeer. I never thought I'd be asked this question. All right, Matt. I mean, whatever, whichever one you choose, you better have a good explanation. I think I, I think, um... How do I say this with that sound? Like, I am fully, uh, like, yeah.

I just love that much you're squirming right now. You're suddenly shifting a lot more in your chair. I'd probably, I'd have a threesome. A threesome. Yeah, I have a threesome. One last big hurrah. There you go. One big hurrah.

The final video. Yeah, exactly. For our different videos side. Awesome. Matt. It's been a pleasure, dude. Same here, dudes for coming by. Appreciate you for everything.

Great seeing you as always. And honestly, big shout outs to you for, I mean, throughout this process. Yeah. You've been so amazing, so supportive. So just to have you by my side for it has been instrumental. Yeah, dude. I mean, it takes a lot of balls to do both things you did. It takes a lot of balls to build a YouTube channel that big.

And it takes a lot of balls to leave. So a lot of respect for your courage and prioritizing yourself. It's something that's very hard to do. A lot of people are not able to do it. So excited to see what's next for you. And go enjoy that beach. Oh, God. No phones.

No cameras. You're going to sell any pictures. But yeah, don't. Don't send me anything. You want here for me. Just come back one day and tell me how it was. Yeah. Just a big beard and tan.

Yeah. Awesome. Much love. That's it for this episode of Sutterer or Not Giving a Fuck podcast. Matt wrote, Talk to Strangers. Is there a subtitle? The Yes Theory Story.

Talk to Strangers, the Yes Theory story. It should be out everywhere when this episode goes up. So check it out. Bookstores link in the description below. And obviously, check out Yes Theory. They're fucking amazing. They're still carrying the torch. I love those guys.

I never know how to end these things. So like and subscribe, leave a review, do something, buy a book, go outside, talk to your friends, call your mom. I'll see you next week. Okay.