SOLVED with Mark Manson - Lessons on Money, Success, and Fulfillment You Need to Hear (ft. Lewis Howes)

Episode Date: March 19, 2025

Lewis Howes is one of the most successful podcasters of all time—12 years, nearly 1,800 episodes, and countless interviews with world-class performers. But what’s even more interesting is how his definition of success has evolved over the years. In this conversation, Lewis opens up about shifting from a hyper-competitive, “be number one” mentality to a more collaborative, impact-driven approach. We also dive into emotional regulation, the surprising ways our relationship with money affects our lives, and why most people either idolize or demonize wealth. Oh, and Lewis casually mentions he’s training to compete in the Olympics in his 40s. No big deal. This episode is packed with insights on what it really means to live a fulfilling, abundant life—without losing your mind in the process. Lewis's new book, Make Money Easy: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Money-Easy-Financial-Freedom/dp/1401993931 Lewis's podcast, The School of Greatness: https://lewishowes.com/sogpodcast/ Sign up for my newsletter, Your Next Breakthrough. It will help make you a less awful person: https://markmanson.net/breakthrough Follow me: https://instagram.com/markmanson/ https://twitter.com/IAmMarkManson https://facebook.com/Markmansonnet/ https://linkedin.com/in/markmanson/ https://www.tiktok.com/@iammarkmanson Theme music: Icarus Lives by Periphery, used with permission from Periphery. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, before we get into it, if you listen to the show, you probably consume a lot of personal growth content. The books, the podcasts, YouTube videos, all of it. And you've probably noticed the gap between knowing what to do and then actually going out and doing it. You've got the insights, but what you don't have is something that connects them to your actual life. That's why I built purpose. It's a personal development AI that learns you, your patterns, your blind spots, all the stuff that you keep circling back to over and over again. Instead of handing you another framework, it gives you specific personalized direction.

So check it out. You can try it for free for seven days. Go to purpose. That is purpose. dot app. Louis Howes. Welcome to the show, man. Thanks for having me.

Dude. A podcasting legend. You know, 12 years. Every week for 12 years, I've done a podcast. Every week? I haven't recorded every week, but I've posted every week for 12 years. How many episodes now? I, 1700 or 1,800.

somewhere around that. Yeah, I know. I'm like, sleepy just hearing that number. I'm like, I need a vacation just from just from what you just said. How many blog posts have you written? Yeah, over a thousand, right? Yeah, I mean, hundreds, but it's, it's cool having you here. You've been, people don't know this. Behind the scenes, you've been a huge supporter of mine starting this show. I appreciate, like, you reached out. You were super kind, very helpful. Yeah, man. I really appreciate My pleasure, man. Yeah. So I'm curious.

You've interviewed, I guess, over a thousand experts at this point. Yeah. Right. High performers, top achievers. I'm curious, I don't know if you still do this, but for a long time, I think the first two times I was on your show, you ask everybody what their definition of greatness is. I'm curious what, how has your definition of greatness changed and evolved over the years? You've been doing this 12 years. What was it when you started and what is it today?

I think when it started, I can't remember. what exactly it was, but I remember who I was back then, and I think it was more like just being number one. Being the best and being number one at whatever you do, I thought that was greatness to me, which is like, you have to go after your thing, be the top of what you can be, take your talents to the farthest and be number one and be the best. And I don't think that's wrong. I think it's just evolved with that. And I think we should be developing our unique talents and gifts to, you know, We should pursue our dreams and develop our unique talents and gifts in that pursuit. And I think it's also making the maximum impact on the people around us.

And if that's millions of people, great. If that's five people, great. It's like, how can we take our talents to pursue the thing we're called to do, which I'm sure you're going to ask me what that next calling is for me right now in the future. And how do we take it as far as we can, but in that journey, make an impact on the people around us in the best possible way? That's for me is like my current definition. Yeah. What's interesting about that is the whole concept of being number one, right?

It's like being number one among what? Like what is the, you know, what's the circle that you're drawing and putting yourself in and deciding your number? Like it's a very arbitrary kind of metric. And it's almost like I do think when we're younger, we kind of just look at kind of maybe traditional societal measurements of the best or number one or the top achievements. And I guess as you get older, you start learning that like, hey, you get to define for yourself. Yes. Like what are you measuring yourself by? What are you going to be great at?

What are you going to be number one at? Yeah. For me, it was like, okay, how can I be the best in sports? And then that was done. How can I be the best in my industry of business or whatever, podcasting or whatever might be? And that energy is just very competitive versus collaborative. Yeah. And I learned around the time of launching the show that I was just like, oh, I knew.

need to shift it from trying to win to try and to get everyone around me to win with me. Yeah. And if I can have that energy, it's just much more enjoyable. And we were talking about, you know, someone else before we started the recording, it's like seeing other people thrive for me is exciting because it shows me, oh, maybe I could get there as well one day. If they could do it, maybe I could do it. And it doesn't mean I'm less than if someone else is greater than in this moment or having

a different type of moment or selling better or performing better. It just means there's a lot of space for everyone. Yeah. And everyone can have a moment or a season and that's great. Do you struggle with that sometimes, that competitive? I used to. Yeah. I used to feel more like insecure and jealous.

I was like, oh, they have something I don't have or they're better than me and something. So how do I get better? And now I'm just like, how do I be my best? How do I stick to my mission and be better every day? I mean, uh, and really me helping others grow like me reaching out to you and and be like, hey, how can I help you have a great podcast and launch your show and be massive. It doesn't pull back from me also being successful

or making money. And again, the more collaborative I can be, I've found that that kind of mastermind principle or community principle really has supported me in return in times when I'm struggling or when I'm having a moment. It's like, I'm coming on your show and I've got a book coming out. It's like, if I didn't invest in you being successful

in some way, maybe you wouldn't have been interested to support me in return. And I think just having that mindset in general is a more enjoyable way to live. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I'm a very competitive person as well, and I look at, I look at metrics and you want to be number one.

Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, I, but it's, I do look at my younger self, and I used to, I had a lot of, I used to have a lot of competitiveness and like my friendships. Uh-huh. And I think a lot of guys, young men do that. And it's something that,

now as an older man like I look back and I'm like that was so stupid like it was so because it created a lot of unnecessary conflict and tension created a lot of jealousy you know

resentment on both sides you know and if he was completely unnecessary I'm curious like was there any specific experience or occurrence that like shifted that for you or was it like a very gradual

process over time? Oh man I think it's probably multiple instances over time It's more of a feeling. I know this may not be something you like talking about, but it's more of like an energy. I just felt like,

why am I always in judgment? Why am I always feeling less than? Why am I always doubting? Why am I always in competition with other people over the years? And I was in a place of scarcity and lack. Even though I was driven to succeed or I was driven to accomplish, if I'm in comparison and I'm comparing myself to someone else's success, it means I'm not there yet or I'm not as.

good as them. Right. And when it's coming from a place of jealousy or insecurity rather than celebration of that person, then again, it's just an energy that doesn't feel good. Yeah. It feels just like a lower energy. And I want to have a higher energy when I'm doing things. So it's a constant reminder even today.

It's like we have friends that are thriving right now bigger than what we're doing at this moment. And I have to constantly say, like, good for them. I'm excited for them. Even if I have to have to fake it sometimes, it's like, yeah, I'm excited for them. Do I wish I could be there? Sure. Yeah. It's like, of course, I wish I was maybe farther ahead or having that type of opportunity.

But, like, good for them. And here's something that I feel like I've started to learn really the last four years. It's like there's not many people who have done what you've done for a long time who've written content and been successful as an author and a writer for a decade plus or however long it's been. There's not many people in the podcasting world for 12 years. Right. And I'm starting to think more of, you know, in eight more years, 20 years,

can I make this enjoyable, fun, continue to grow and thrive for the next eight years? Obviously, evolve and innovate, but not many people are going to be able to do that for a long time. And I'm starting to look at that more as a metric for me of I'm innovating, I'm growing, I'm making a difference and an impact, I'm able to build my business. Maybe there's a moment where things just really explode in the bigger way, maybe not. But as long as I'm really enjoying it and not letting it stress me out constantly, I feel like that's a big win because it is an energy. We want to feel light.

We want to feel free. We want to feel expansive, abundant. We want to feel loved, all these different things. And if I'm just chasing to be number one where I'm feeling separate because I'm lacking what someone else has, that doesn't feel good. Yeah. Well, we were talking before we went live. I mean, you're doing this book launch, right?

And like, I've been through it. You've been through it. Like a typical book launch, it's just this wall-to-wall. You're doing 20 interviews a day, week after week. Exhausting. You're in like five different cities. You're doing events. You're going on TV.

Like, it's absolutely exhausting. You just, you wear yourself to the bone. And you said, you're like, I'm not doing that this time. I'm doing like five to 10 interviews. I'm good. And I, like, it's funny because I, when you said that, I immediately, I was like, I admire that. Like I know because I know how hard it is to turn down all those opportunities, but I think that is, it's a demonstration of like that reprioritization away from like, because you could.

You could just like murder yourself over the next three weeks. Sure sure. Try to make this thing number one everywhere, you know, and burn yourself out, you know, and like just really drain all your energy, not be present when you come home, not be present with your team with your wife. Like I'm not saying it's bad. not it's bad to go all out like it's good to be able to go all out like sometimes i sometimes i tell my wife i'm like i like knowing that i can go balls to the wall if i have to but like i don't want to

live there yeah there's a price you pay for that too i mean again it's all seasonal it's like maybe it was 10 years ago it's my first book i'd be like i have to do everything i can and if i'm not married and i'm single and it's like i can do it and i don't care what happens to my body but my mission is to try to be as healthy as possible right now during everything with what I'm doing. Yeah. And so it's like, okay, I've got to really be, I have to make better decisions on what I'm going to give my energy to when I'm going to do interviews. Whereas before, two years ago, I did a book launch. And I think I did 63 interviews within three months. I was exhausted. I gained like 20 pounds. I was just burnt out. And it didn't see the results in my mind that I thought I would do. So it was like, okay, I could

kill myself trying to get extreme results. It got good results, but it didn't get what I thought I would get. So what's the point of doing that again? If me killing myself again for three months, would it give me the results I want? I don't know. And is it worth losing my health to get those results? Right.

At this season, it's not anymore. Yeah. Yeah, for just the, you know, 20% more book sales, 10% more book sales in the first month or whatever. I want to go back really quick because a thought occurred to me when you were, you were talking about kind of how it was like a slow mindset shift over time of just like how that competitiveness and comparison made you feel worse, gave you a worse energy. It struck me as you were talking.

I'm like, it's funny that like you built your show is the school of greatness. Like the whole concept around it is you find the top performers in each area of life in each field. And so I guess one thing I never considered is that the experience of doing your show is that you are constantly putting yourself in front of the person who's number one at something. Yeah, they're all better than me. Yeah. They're all like great and me and everything. So if you are comparing yourself, you're going to quickly drive yourself crazy. Yeah. So it's almost like I kind of have this therapy that are this theory that, uh, that people, people who create media or content, like we create our own therapy. Yes. Like we create the advice that we actually need ourselves.

And I, I just found it interesting while you were talking. I'm like, it's funny. He kind of created the show. I needed it the most. Yeah. I needed it the most. Yeah. And again, I was extremely competitive in sports and I tried to be competitive in business. But you interview someone who's making more than you.

It's like, oh, okay, I'm nobody compared to this person. So it's like quickly I learned like, I was like, how do I get there as fast as possible in all these different places in the first few years? Yeah. I was like, I will never be able to do that. And I just need to continue to be a student and just try to improve a little bit every day in the areas to, feel more whole as a human being. It might sound a little lame or something, but I think a lot of us want to feel peace. We want to feel wholeness. We want to feel like we are enough. In whatever, you know, in our own world, we want to feel whole. For most of my life, I felt broken. I felt

wounded and I felt triggered. And I was driven to succeed to feel more whole. The success didn't create wholeness. So about 10 to 12 years ago, I started on a healing journey to figure out how do I create that wholeness within me? And that's kind of what the show has been, my own therapy. Yeah. Well, and it's interesting, too, because your background, sports, business, it's like very, very masculine. It's very, like, success. Crush, dominate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, but, like, you're actually, like, you're a very sensitive, emotionally aware guy who, like, and a lot, like, a lot of the guests and the content on your show, like, the last few years, it's like, it's a lot of, it's more relationship stuff. It's more emotional stuff. It's more like developing maturity and,

and, and, uh, it, it's funny. It is, it's, it is almost like, it's what I lacked. Yeah. For most of my life. You know, it's like I was one mode is like win, achieve goals, succeed, get girls. It was like, that's the mindset of like some young men, right? It was like, Yeah. But when you have all those things or when you're accomplishing you those things at a certain level or whatever and you realize, oh, this isn't the answer to creating fulfillment or wholeness or self-love or peace. I was just like, oh, man, all the money that I was making wasn't making me feel peaceful.

Yeah. So if that's not the entire answer, what is the answer? And that's the journey. So your background is in sports and athletics, which we've alluded to. we've now, we've talked about what doesn't transfer over, like that, that kind of sports competitive mentality doesn't translate over into everyday life, maybe so effectively. I'm curious, what did you learn in sports and athletics that has translated over into life? Vision. Yeah. Vision was the thing that I think I was either given the gift or developed the gift over years of playing sports.

And I don't know if you had this playing, you know, jazz guitar or whatever. something you had or you had some other creative element from that, the ability to improvise what was coming next while you're playing. Although I think you said, like, your first month at Berkeley, you were like, oh, I give up because you were comparing yourself to like, you know, the average guitar player there who's just dominating you or something. I made it six whole months. Yeah, yeah, basically. Yeah, a semester and a half or something. Yeah, exactly. But for me, it was, I was never the most talented when I was, you know, in kind of middle school and high school. Not until I got into like my later years in high school where I became more like the all-star

on the team. But early on, I just had a lot of failure in sports, but I was willing to just train all day long. And where I lacked an athletic ability, I was able to create spacing and awareness on the field, on the court, whatever it might be and see where the ball needed to be or where I needed to be. And so I lacked the speed and the jumping abilities, but I was able to see what was going to come next. And was that something you practiced or? It was, it was, I don't even know how it happened.

I think it was just because I lacked the other skills as certain guys had of like natural speed and natural jumping, I had to find a way around to make up that space. Gotcha. To save that time where they could excel in speed or strength. And that ability to almost see things. of the peripheral and have patience allowed me to excel because I just always find a way to get the ball. I'd always be in the right spot.

I'd always just knew where it was going to be. And a lot of people asked me, like, how did you excel quickly on my kind of business path when I first got started in my, I guess, mid to late 20s? And everyone was like, how did you get here so quickly? And all I did after sports was done was I said, I don't know anything else about life, except for how to relate it to sports.

I don't know how to make money. I don't know about relationships. I don't know about any of this stuff. But I know I need to find a coach because the greatest athletes, they hire better coaches after they win the championship. And they find more specialists to support them to excelling and maintaining that championship level.

So I was like, I just need to find a coach who's already done it before in life. And I need to think of life as seasons. Of like the first season, I got to figure out a way to get off my system. couch. Okay, what do I need to do in these three months? And then I just started breaking it down in seasons like a sport and asking the coach to guide me on how to get there. What I was really good at was vision. I knew where I wanted to go. And I was really effective at working extremely hard daily

until I accomplished the goals and receiving feedback from the coach. And that's what I did as an athlete. I was coachable. I could receive feedback. And I would just, you tell me to do something for three hours a day, I'm doing it. Okay, tell me to do it for how long I'll do it. Yeah. And I think that consistency, again, I've been doing the podcast for 12 years and it's like, I'm just going to keep showing up. As long as I'm enjoying it and I feel like I'm improving, I'll keep showing up. Yeah. It's like, it's just this like old school. It is. It is. Yeah. I think I got that from sports. Yeah. So with everything that you've learned and experienced, if you were to create like a greatness 101, curriculum.

Like, what are the first lessons? What are the, what are like the basic tenets of like, okay, you want to, you, you want to achieve something more in your life, whatever it is, whether it's sports, art, business, whatever? What are like the first three or four things you have to have? I don't know what order this goes in, but the first one goes back into having a, a mentor that has a model that you would like to mimic. So a mentor who's already done something that you see,

oh, I want to get to this place and finding someone who's got some type of a model to get in there. So if there was a young person that said, I want to be an author, and I want to write, and I want to do really influential writing, then they can look to you as a mentor, whether they can connect with you personally or just see your content online on this podcast

because you have a model that they can follow and they can start to mimic from where you started to where you are. that would be one is like really finding good coaches, teachers, mentors, and some people don't have that in their parents so you can find that in other ways. I don't know if you read a lot of books growing up and you kind of had that mentorship through books through reading or if you had great teachers coaching you. But for me, I had great coaches and I would not be where I'm at without those coaches. So I think find those the best way you can. And if you can't, then find the books and the podcast like this. the second element of greatness for me would be emotional regulation.

Because it's something I lacked for most of my life. I was very reactive when I was triggered. I had a lot of wounds from my childhood psychologically, emotionally, physically. And any time someone poked on the wounds, I would react. And it's because the wound never healed for me. So I didn't know how to regulate those emotions. And I felt like I needed to defend myself, protect myself. fight back, whatever it might be.

And I think emotional regulation, for me, learning the art of it is really learning how to have courage to create boundaries instead of reacting and letting someone else have power over you. Yeah. And also really learning to look at your past and create meaning from these wounds or the stresses or the traumas that we've had and being okay at looking at them for a period of time, processing them, forgiving yourself, forgiving someone else, however, that looks for you, and then integrating the healing lessons so you can feel more peaceful in your

nervous system. My nervous system was never calm. It was always like hyper-sensitive. Yeah. And I was easily triggered. I wanted to please everyone, but I felt taking advantage of and abused by them. And it all stem from childhood traumas that I never healed. So I felt very unsafe inside of me. And it wasn't until I was able to process the, things and create better emotional regulation where I felt, oh, I'm good with me. I'm calm. And was that through therapy, meditation? It was through all of it.

Okay. It was through everything, everything, all of it. And it's been a journey. Yeah. It wasn't like, oh, I just did a few sessions and I'm good. It was a journey. And with every new level of my life of financial success, different relationships, marriage, you know, breakups, whatever it might be, I had to learn.

how to regulate at different levels as well. It comes back. Yeah. It comes back and bites you in the ass in new ways. In new ways, man. It's like, and so new levels create new devils. I think that's a phrase. Yeah.

So it's learning how to use the tools that I've learned in a previous season that applied to the current season of emotional regulation. And you just see, you know, you just see so many people get to the top and then fall because of their emotions. Yeah. Their stresses or the lack of emotional regulation. So that would be the second thing. Really having great coaches, mentors, teachers, whatever you want to call it, therapist, doesn't matter.

Someone that can mentor you in some way and give you tools to support you and getting where you want to be. And being able to receive feedback, emotional regulation, I think, is something I wish I would have learned when I was five. Yeah. You know, 10, 15, 30, you know, 40. You know, it's like I'm going to be 42 next week. Better late than never lose. And it's a constant process of learning how to regulate my emotions. then I would think the next element of greatness is,

which is the first habit in the book that I have, which is the mindset habit. And I really believe that gratitude and generosity is the gateway to abundance. And it's the gateway to a flourishing life and a more of an abundant, fulfilling life. And I know you don't like the word abundance and manifest on all these things.

You repel when someone says those words. You're like, ugh. You like, ick with that. I understand that. So I think gratitude and being a generous human being is the ingredients for, you know, just a flourishing, prosperous life. Yeah. A rich life. And for me, most people say, well, once I have the success or the money, then I'll be giving and then I'll be generous.

Then I'll be grateful that I have it. But I think we really have to say, okay, I have nothing. How can I be grateful for where I'm at? And the little wins every single day, the little moments that are little victories. And how can I be generous? If it's not with money, how can I be generous with my time, my attention, my presence, my curiosity with a human being, my resources, my ability to connect people, my ability to give information freely, whatever it might be?

And I think that's really the key. to greatness. Well, the irony with what you just said, too, because I've run into the same thing is, you know, people, they say, well, I don't have anything right now. So how can I be generous? Why should I help other people? It kind of, and they think like, well, once I'm successful, once I have abundance, then I'll be generous with people. But it kind of works the other way around. Like when you're generous with people, they want to support you and they want to give you opportunities and they want to help you along your path.

And I remember this, I'm trying to remember. It was like a marketing seminar I saw once. I think it was Dan Kennedy years and years and years ago. And he was saying he was like, everybody wants to convince a million people to give them a dollar. And he's like, but what you should be doing is you should be trying to give a million people a hundred dollars worth of value for free. And then ask, you know, when, then they will be compelled to give you a dollar without you even asking. Yeah, so true. And it's just like, it's like leading with the giving hand.

And I've just found that to be true in so many walks of life, whether it's business, relationships, you know, pursuing a skill or a hobby, any pursuit that involves, like, networking and relationships in any way, like, it's just be helpful. Generosity, man. Be useful. Yeah. And I just think that will, it's more sustainable energy long term. You might be to be like taking energy and get to a certain level at one point, but then it's like you burn a lot of relationships. people are like, ah, don't work with that guy or that gal. And it's not sustainable long term.

So I think greatness is something that you can sustain for a long time. And you've got to be grateful and generous. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the new book. You mentioned it briefly. I was very interested and impressed. I thought you'd say skeptical because, you know, is it? No, no.

It's actually really cool. Like, I'm glad somebody, because there's so many money books out there. Yes. and you took an angle that I have not seen anybody else take, right? Which is like there are no charts and tables. There's like very little math in here. There's no like interest rates. And here's not an investing book.

Here's the best credit card to get. Like it's it is all about the mindsets and emotions and attitudes and beliefs that we have around money and how they sabotage us and how to like prevent them from sabotaging us. So the first thing, I'm just curious what inspired it? Like where did this come from? Well, at the time, you know, nine, ten years of doing the podcast, all the conversations I had around money. And as I stopped asking people like, how do you make money and how do you manage your emotions around money? And what is the energy, the beliefs, the mindset around how to create an abundant life with or without money? Those episodes just really kind of took off.

So I was like, oh, people are really struggling around money. Money conversations are one of the biggest reasons why people get divorced or break up in relationships. People feel like they attach their self-worth to their net worth. So if you don't have anything, you feel like you're not worthy, you feel like you're not valuable. So why is that? And I also just was very confused around money as a kid. I didn't understand it.

I didn't know how to make it. I didn't think I was talented enough that someone would give me money. It's very confusing. And I wasn't taught this in school. Like no one taught me how to manage your emotions around money. And as you know, our beliefs influence our behaviors. And the more we think and feel about something, we usually act in alignment with that way of thinking. And then we get the results in our life.

As I started to make money in my late 20s and 30s, I just started to reflect. And I was like, oh, okay, I was this extreme saver. I wouldn't spend it because I was afraid to go broke and be on my sister's couch again. So I would work really hard, save all this money. it was in the bank, and I would still take buses, Greyhound buses across the country, and not buy a plane ticket. And then when I would buy a plane ticket, I would get like the cheapest seat with three connections, middle row.

Like 4 a.m. departure. Exactly. I was like, how can I save, save, save? Because I don't want to go back and be broke again. Yeah, yeah. So I had millions, but I was living in scarcity. And I felt anxious and stressed about money. And I was always like, is someone.

trying to rip me off. When I'm spending someone for a consultant, are they really charging me the right fair price? I was just like anxious around it. And I wanted to learn the skills for me on how to feel more peaceful around money. And again, I was like, I had money, but I felt scarce. That's not a rich life to me. That's not a abundant life. That's not a beautiful life. It was stressful. Money created more problems for me. It solves certain problems, but it made me feel more anxious and stressed at the same time. And even with the money, I wasn't taking care of myself or like even just getting a normal seat on a airplane so that I wasn't breaking my back, you know, on this like cramped airplane or whatever. It's like I wasn't willing to invest in things to add value to me because I was

afraid of going broke. And it took me years to kind of heal that mindset and kind of retrain my mindset to thinking, okay, it's okay to spend on certain things. And how can I feel safe spending and investing in me or things are going to bring me more joy. I'm working so hard to make this money, but I'm not investing in it to make myself feel better. Why? So it's just like looking at my own beliefs and seeing where that came from. And I realized I had a lot of money wounds that created my money story. And as I started asking people like, what's your money story? What's your money wounds? People really didn't understand what I was talking about. And so I said, okay, let's do an example right now. Mark, imagine the idea of money is represented in a person.

In a person who is money walks through the door right now. And they represent money. They are money to you. The thoughts, the feelings, the emotions around money. They walk in the door. What's the first thing you think or feel if money walked in the door right now? The first word that came to mind was douchebag. Interesting. Why? I think a big part of this is my upbringing. You know, I grew up in Texas, very, you know, suburbs, quasi-rural. Like, the area that I grew up in and then also kind of, you know, my mom's from the Midwest, my dad's from Texas, like, the attitude towards money where I grew up is very much it's, it's, it's, you stay humble.

You try not to stick out like, you know, if you drive a fancy car or have a fancy watch, like, oh, you think you're better than us, huh? You know, like it's very much, it's people are always kind of cutting each other down and people who do have money are, you're kind of playing it down because you don't want to stand out too much. Dude, that's me too, man. Yeah, that's me for a long time. Yeah. And I definitely feel like I've kind of personally gotten away from that to a certain extent. Not completely, but to a certain extent. But it's funny because I definitely see it in my family.

Like it's when I go home and I see family and friends, there's still very much that vibe around. And what were some of the conversations or some of the things you heard about money growing up? You know, some people hear like, oh, money doesn't grow on trees or maybe they just heard their parents fighting about money or like, was there anything that you heard?

Like, rich people are like always like, they did something wrong to make their money. They hurt people to make money. Did you hear anything? So my dad did pretty well for himself. Like, we weren't rich, but, like, we were upper middle class. Like, money was never a problem in my family. You know, we went to good schools.

We had food. Like, we lived in a nice house. Like, parents had two nice cars, like, all that stuff. So money was never a problem in our family. Actually, the problem, the discussions and the stress around money in my family was actually downplaying how much we had. Because I think in the neighborhood I grew up in, we had some of the most money in the neighborhood. Right. And so it was trying to not be too like high brow around everyone.

Exactly. Because people, like I said, where I grew up, people judge you for that, right? You know, I would, I remember when I was a kid, I would invite a friend over from school and like their parents would bring them. And, you know, the parent would kind of look at the house and be like, wow, what do you do for work? You know, like it was just, but kind of in a sneering judgmental way. And I definitely Like that got indoctrinated into me Especially you know growing up in Texas too

Like people talk tons of shit about New Yorkers and Californians and like Miami or something Yeah like don't be one of those East Coasters who's like Superficial or snobby Yeah too you know don't get too big for your britches like stuff like that Interesting Yeah That we fear people's judgments of how big we can get or how much wealth we can create

And therefore we want to downplay it in some ways unconsciously or maybe consciously of like, oh, we don't want to offend anyone or we want to look too good for ourselves or whatever it might be. And that's just interesting. And what I want everyone listening or watching to think about is just if money walked in the door,

how would you initially react? And that was your initial reaction. What a douchebag, right? It was like, and maybe it was kind of a little joke in there, but it's like, that was your initial reaction. That was the truth. That was the honest gut reaction. Yeah.

You weren't like, oh, I'd give it a big hug and welcome in and come sit down next to us. You know, it's like, oh, you'd kind of be like, get out of here. Yeah. What an idiot. Yeah. You'd be thinking of that way. So I want everyone to think about that and reflect on it.

And if you're watching on YouTube, leave a comment of what money represents to you. Look at this. This is a pro at work. Share a comment and say if money walking the door, what's your initial response? Leave a comment, a detailed comment on that. I love this. And also, milk the engagement, Lewis. Let's go.

I want everyone to be reflecting on this because here you're going to get a lot of value seeing everyone else's comment. on how other people think about money. And I'll just share one story that I asked someone close to me who's in their late 20s. So I guess that's Gen Z. I don't know what that is, but is that Gen Z if you're like 27, 28? Yeah. And I said, if you're at a restaurant and money walks in the door,

what do you do? And they said, I would run to the bar and hide. And then I would talk about money behind its back and gossip about it and say nasty things about it. when it came up to, if it came up to me, I would act like I was his friend. It'd be nice and polite. Then I would use it and abuse it to get what I wanted. And if it ever reached out to me, I would ghost it. And I was like, holy cow, that seems like a very unhealthy relationship with money. And they were like, I know it is. And they were very honest and I appreciate it. And I want everyone

to be honest with, what is your relationship with money like? If you could make it a person or an idea, how does it make you feel in your nervous system and your mind and your body, do you feel safe with money? Do you feel if someone gave you a gift, Mark, if someone said, here's $5, I want you to have this. How would that make you feel? Versive as someone said,

here's $5 million as a gift. I want you to have this. Right. And just notice, like your eyebrows went up when you said $5 million. I was like, just notice, can you receive gifts from people? Can you receive gifts from a friend and family

or strangers? Or do you feel like, no, I can never take this? Just notice your reaction. Are you good at giving gifts? Or do you feel like I can't give my money away because then I'll never get it back? Do you hold on the money tightly? Are you relaxed with it? And it can come and go freely because you have a healthy relationship with it.

It's not a right or wrong, good or bad here. It's just to notice what is your relationship? Do you feel you have a rich or abundant life emotionally with your relationship with money? If not, then it's time to go to money therapy, address some of your money wounds. Again, some of these words people may be like freaking out about, but it's like just to notice them. Yeah. Notice these stories like you talked about and say, how can I just start to mend or heal some of these and start expanding my ability to give and receive more?

Well, I do. I love this conversation because in my experience and both and also with myself in my own life, but also just with people I've been around, I generally find that people tend to, either have irrationally positive associations with money or irrationally negative associations with like nobody seems to have just kind of a neutral like yeah money's cool like nobody does nobody does like a beautiful relationship with yeah yeah yeah it's everybody either thinks that money's going to solve all their problems and their life would be so amazing if they just you know had X amount of dollars and then or they think that money is like the root of all evil it's causing all the

issues in their life that it's people who are rich people are assholes and scumbags and cheating everybody and there's no kind of like sane middle ground. And it's it's so weird to me. Like I actually, I wonder why, why do we attach so much emotion to money? I mean, that's what I'm trying to figure out of the answer. Yeah. I think because of the wounds around it and the power that it gives people. When you have money, you feel more powerful. When you have less money, you feel less powerful. And no one wants to feel disempowered. They don't want to feel like they're out of control. They want to feel in control. Money and sex are like the two biggest drivers in life. Yeah. It's the thing we drive to have more of until we can regulate our emotions

and feel like, okay, I can have a healthy amount of sex. Hopefully with one person, because that's going to be a better dynamic, hopefully. Fewer headaches. Fewer headaches. Less stress. Less trauma. Better spiritual alignment, all these different things. And hopefully I can have a healthy relationship with money where money doesn't make me feel powerful by itself because if it does, because if I lose money or if I give money or if I spend money, I feel less powerful in certain ways. Or if my bank account is going down, then my self-worth is going down. And I think it's attaching those things with our identity with how much money we have or don't have or how much debt we might have. And most of the country is in some type of debt.

So people feel anxious. They feel stressed around it. And again, my goal is to see how can I help people and help myself feel more peace in every area of life? money is just one of the biggest charges for people. And it can hurt a lot of people, but it can also help you if you have a healthy relationship. So again, I want everyone to ask themselves if money was a person, how would you react in that?

And also another question you could answer in the comments, and you can answer you here too, is... Leave a second comment, everybody. Just a simple... It's all just about assessing where we're at and saying, does this support me? Yeah. And feeling good.

Yeah. You want to call it abundant, prosperous, wealthy. It's like, do I feel good? On a scale of 1 to 10, Mark, 10 being the most abundant, peaceful, and one being the most scarce and stressed out, where are you on the 1 to 10 scale with your relationship with money? So money is one of the few things I actually feel like I've I've always been very good with, like in both emotionally and just managing finances. I actually give a lot of credit my dad. We could talk about that in a bit if you want. I would say eight or nine, eight or nine.

I very rarely stress about money. I also, I think I'm very realistic about it. Like I don't expect it really to solve any, any of my major problems in my life. Do you have any triggers around money? When someone, are you able to receive gifts well? And do you feel like you're a generous person with your money? Do you feel when you have to spend money on taxes? Are you like, this is bullshit and not fuck this shit?

Are you like, okay, I see it for what it is and it's okay? And, you know, is there any area of money where you get like stressed out about? Honestly, I could probably use, I could probably be a little bit more anxious around money. Like I'm very. Too generous. You're too giving free. I am very generous, which I'm actually okay with that. But I'm very, I'm very comfortable with risk.

Uh-huh. So it actually, it's like, you know, I've had investments in the past. It's hurt you in the past. I've had investments in the past or, you know, maybe an errant trip to Vegas that I'm like, I'm like, you know, this should bother me a lot more than it does, but it doesn't. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

I think that's pretty healthy as long as you're able to not risk so much of it. And you're just like, hey, this is okay because I know money's going to come back to me and I've done a good job with that. As long as it's not an addiction or a compulsion or anything, which it's not. But yeah, I mean, it's, you know, my parents, they got a lot of things right and they got a lot of things wrong like most parents. But, like, one of the things they really nailed was the money thing. That's great. And I'm extremely grateful for that. Well, so there was a part in your book that stood out to me and it was something I related to a lot.

And I actually thought it would be a fun exercise for us to kind of go through and discuss, you know, why each of these things were true for us at different points. So you had a section, and you kind of just said it in passing. And I think it was in like the second or third chapter. But you said, like, there were times in your life where you were broke and happy. where you're broke and miserable, where you were rich and happy and rich and miserable. And I've had all four of those experiences as well.

Yes. I read that and I was like 100%. 100%. And it made me kind of wonder, I'm like, so what was it in each of those instances? So let's start with broken happy. When were you broke and happy? And why were you happy?

I was on my sister's couch for a year and a half after playing arena football. And for the first six months, I had a broken wrist, so I was in a cast, and I was really kind of just defeated because my identity was broken. For so long, I wanted to pursue this dream. I got to do it, but then it's over. And now I'm like, well, who am I? What is my value?

What's my purpose? Why am I here? So it was in that kind of state of sadness, depression, whatever you want to call it, just down on myself. I didn't have any money. I had, I don't know, about 20-something grand in college debt. I didn't have a college degree yet. it was at the, you know, the height of the, I guess, the housing crisis of 2008, 2009, and I wasn't able to find a job. So it was just like, everything felt like it was against me. And I was believing

that everything was against me and I have no power. I'm powerless. That's when I felt I'm poor and I'm miserable. Yes. It's when I started to say to myself, okay, I can stay here in this kind of self-loathing state of mind or I can create a game plan and I can start to say, how can I just see improvement? It's not going to be a millionaire overnight. I'm not going to get off my sister's couch right away. But what are the things that I'm most afraid of? And I made a list of my biggest fears. And how can I start feeling more powerful by overcoming them and developing those skills? Public speaking was one of them. Reading and writing was one of them. Salsa dancing was a fear. All these different things, I had fears around. And so I found coaches in

each area of those, you know, speaking, writing, reading, salsa dancing. And they all guided me on how to overcome it. I felt a lot of joy within probably three or four months. The beginning part of that, I was terrified and it was miserable because I really sucked at all of it. And I was just embarrassing myself in front of people trying these things. So it was very disencouraging in the beginning stages of overcoming fears. But within three to four months, I was like, oh, I'm getting

progress. I'm seeing that I'm not as horrible. I'm just not as bad. And it was like once started, I started to figure things out and got some momentum in all these areas. I was like, man, I can do anything. I was like, I'm not great yet, but it's like, wow, if I could do even just this much, what else could I do? And that really made me feel excited about life and probably

that I've never felt before. When I was the tail end in my sister's couch, I was salsa dancing three, four times a night around Columbus Ohio. I was speaking at Toastmasters every single week and I had a coach that was guiding me to get better and I could see my growth. I was getting great feedback and I was starting to write a book from another mentor that was helping me write my first book around LinkedIn actually. And it was just like, oh, I'm conquering the world, even though I was still beginner at these things. And no one really knew who I was and I wasn't making really any money. But I was like, man, I can do anything.

And that felt very empowering. So I felt like I'm broke, but I'm like taken over the world. And that was very empowering. And then the time when I was, you know, making money but unhappy was when all my relationships were falling apart around me, probably around 30 years old, about 12 years ago. And I had millions in the bank. I had success. I had like a personal brand.

I had these things. But my business relationship was falling apart. my girlfriend, that relationship was falling apart. And I was going and playing basketball a lot in West Hollywood nearby. And I was just getting in fights all the time. Like I was so easily triggered. Yeah. Like someone could say anything or like elbow me and I just wanted to fight people.

Wow. And I was like, what is wrong with me? So all these things started happening. And I was like, I should be really happy, but I'm not. And that's when I started the podcast. That's when I started going to therapy, workshops. And I was like, oh, I need to work on. finding joy again and healing these things that are triggering me and that's where I feel like I'm now at a place where I've

made money and I feel peaceful as well. So it's been a journey of the last 15, 20 years. It's interesting because it sounds like the transition when you were broke was it was actually more about lack of agency to agency. You know, it's like that feeling of progress, that feeling of freedom, choice of like hope. Yes. Optimism. Yes. What about for you? What are those? It's funny. You and I actually have a very similar story here. So after I I graduate, I'm I think two years younger than you. I finished school 2007. Job market was in the toilet. I had saved up a little bit of money from playing poker, but like didn't really have any job prospects. And so I lived on my friend's couch. Wow. For about six or seven months? Wow. In Texas or? No, this is in Boston. Okay. And my thought at the time. the time was like, well, I'll, I'll figure something out. Like, I've got time. I just finished school. You know, I was still partying a lot. So I was like, I don't want to like change my lifestyle

too quickly, you know, so I'll just kind of chill out and see how things come. And then, of course, the crash of 07 happens. There's no jobs anywhere. I ran out of money. And I'm, I'm living on my friend's couch and I'm like literally taking $100 loans from him each week. And- doesn't feel powerful. No, no. It was absolutely miserable. It was completely miserable. Went through a process. I actually did end up getting a job a few months later, hated it, worked some odd part-time jobs, eventually found my way to starting my first business. And when I started my business, I was still broke.

You know, it was like scrapping together to just, I managed to pay. I remember the first $700 I made, I went to the bank. I went to the bank, I pulled it out all out of the bank account, basically drew my bank account down to like 10, 20 bucks, went back to the apartment and immediately handed it to my friend. Oh, man, see you back to zero. Back to zero. You know?

Belief you didn't have that debt. Yeah, exactly. It was rough, but I eventually hit a point where it was like, you know, the early blogging and the early business, it was starting to get a little bit of traction, but like I still wasn't financially stable. And from there, I moved in with my girlfriend at the time. She financially supported me for a while.

Wow. But it was the same thing that you were talking about. It was like I was learning so much. I was getting better at all these different skills. I was learning web design, copywriting. I was developing myself as a writer. I was learning marketing. I was meeting all these interesting people starting web businesses. It just felt I very much kind of had the same mentality of like, I don't know how long it's going to take, but I'm eventually going to make it. And that feeling kind of sustained me through all that. And it's weird because now I would never go back and like, I know, but you look back, you're like, those were great times. I know, exactly. You get so nostalgic and like, you know, like, oh, man. So painful, but it's also you learn so much. So much.

Yeah, it's like I really do look back on that time very fondly. And it's the sort of thing I would gladly go back and do like a week again. Yeah. But it's like, don't stay there. It's like visiting somewhere. You know, you don't want to stay. And when did you feel like you had money, but you weren't happy? So immediately after Sautil Art took off.

You had success and money and fame and then you weren't happy. Not, well, not immediately after, but soon after. So I would say, you know, the book came out 2016. It hit number one everywhere around New Year's 2017. And then it just stayed number one everywhere, pretty much all through 2017, 2017, 2018. And I would say starting kind of mid-2017, I fell into a pretty deep funk. And it's funny, I look back and it really had to do with that agency thing. That's that optimism, that sense of progress.

I just felt, you know, the success of the book was so vastly disproportionate from my expectation that I had no idea what to do with myself. Like it broke my brain. It broke all my plans, you know, for the next five years of my life. Like, everything just got knocked off the table. And suddenly, you know, these massive checks are showing up in my bank account. And I'm like, I don't have to do fucking anything if I don't want to, you know. So I sat around a lot, played a lot of video games, you know, went out drinking with friends, took the wife to Paris.

Like, you know, did the whole thing. But it felt very lost and very lost and very like just disoriented, you know. kind of like afraid to do anything next because anything I do next is going to be compared to this last thing and it's going to not measure up at all in my head and anybody's head. And of course, like nobody else really cares, but like you, like me, I care a lot. You know, it's everyone else wanted what you had and you were afraid of it in some sense. Totally. Totally.

And interesting. The result of this kind of became the follow up book. but it actually made it difficult to know what the hope for because I'm like, I can't imagine anything better than this thing that already happened. And I'm still this like fucked up, anxious, you know, miserable dude with a hangover. Like nothing changed.

Like my, you were deserving of the money? So my wife struggled quite a bit with that. I. Because she was, you guys were married, so it's your money together, but she was like, I didn't create this.

You know. I think that was a big part of it. It was weird. For me, it was just, there was like this psychological adjustment period. So I still, I did some of the same things you did,

which was like, I'm still like bargain shopping for a flight to Miami. You're like, I'm a multi-millionaire. Why am I discounting this? Yeah, exactly. But for me, it wasn't,

it wasn't so much out of like anxiety or stress that I was going to go broke. It was more just like, it still hadn't sunk it. Like the math had not sunk in yet of like, dude saving 50 bucks on a plane ticket is just like it's literally not worth your time and so there was a lot of that sort of stuff like just kind of like literally having to pull out a calculator and do the math and being like oh that is a silly thing the stress over like I shouldn't even think about

you know a dollar figure this size so there was like there was a learning curve around that but I think part of the the difficult thing and this this ties back into your book like people do start treating you a little bit differently. Not everybody. Like, I'd say two-thirds of the people in my life were just very happy for me and everything was the same. But there was a significant minority of people that got a little bit weird, were kind of awkward. People start kissing your ass a lot. You know, some people show up, start asking for things. You can feel that energy. You can read it. You can feel it. It's like the friend that used to be so cool and relaxed around you. is like not relaxed anymore.

Yeah. And a lot of it. Or that needy girlfriend that you're like, okay, you know, like, I need some space or whatever, you know, it's like.

Yeah, yeah. Or like you start hearing from people from your past that like, you know. Come out after 20 years. You're like, where did?

Some dude you went to high school with who's like suddenly wants to hang out and you're like, what? Yeah. That's weird. Yeah.

So it is, there's a lot of strange stuff like that that starts happening. But it was interesting watching that in people because what I quickly realize is that it really is about

their relationship with money, right? Like I noticed that the people who got very awkward and uncomfortable around me or like started resenting me or trying to kiss my ass, they had a very unhealthy relationship with money. They thought money was going to solve their problems or they measured themselves by their money. And so when I suddenly had a ton of it, they got weird around me. It's kind of like the, I guess, your friend's parents that maybe came to your house and saw that you guys had like a nice home or something or whatever it is and like judging it Oh, what do you guys do for work?

You know, it's like kind of shifting their energy around it. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. So it was, and then you mentioned earlier about the generosity thing. Like when I was younger, especially when I was broke, I definitely, I think I had kind of this naive, but very idealistic idea of like, you know, if I'm ever rich one day, I'm just going to take care of everybody.

Yes. And I'm just going to pay for things. I'm going to help everybody. And what's the problem with that? a lot of people don't like it. Like people don't accept it well. Some people do. Again, it's like most people, they accept it.

It goes well. And they're very grateful and appreciative. Yeah. And you change lives and they're very, you know, but there's a sizable minority of people. Like they, it doesn't sit right. It doesn't land. You know, they take it a certain way.

They're like, oh, you think, oh, now you think you can decide what I do. Or, oh, now you think you're, you can you're better than me so you get to tell me you know that you get to pay for my car instead of me you know like it it was really they might just say oh I expect that you do this now without appreciating it or being grateful there's some of that oh you've got the money so just do it for me there's some of that too people some people become entitled some people become resentful some people become envious that interesting yeah it's uh and you are the one at the center who has to navigate the emotions of every relationship around money right which can feel

overwhelming at times. And set the boundaries and expectations. You have to constantly reinforce a healthy relationship with everyone else's opinion around money with you. Yes. And then be judged for that. Oh yeah. People aren't going to like it. When you say no. When you put a boundary, people don't like it. Yeah, they're like, oh, well, you're rich now. So you don't have time for me anymore. I see how it is. Oh, you're just another greedy rich guy. Yeah, exactly. You know, it's like, oh, man. So you have to navigate those opinions of you and not give a fuck. Yeah. It's like it's a whole thing. Like I said, I'm like, I'm so glad you took this angle because I have not seen this angle taken by any money or finance book in any sort of significant way. I've seen it mentioned here and passing here and there,

but like it's a huge deal. Like again, as somebody who's been on both sides of it, you know, been the broke friend and family member who had to rely on others and also been the wealthy friend and family member who's been relied upon. Like it is when they have that toxic relationship with money when they have that unhealthy relationship with money. Like it does, it hurts them and it hurts the people around them. 100%. And, you know, you and I both know this that the quality of our lives are related to the quality of our relationships. Yes. My parents fought around money and just fought around a lot of stuff, but there was always stress and anxiety and insecurity at home. It's one of the reasons why I left home at 13 to go to a boarding school because I begged them to send me away.

They didn't want me to leave. I begged them because I didn't feel emotionally safe. Now, they did the best they could with the tools they had. They both loved me, but they didn't love each other. So I have seen what happens when people have an unhealthy relationship with one another. And I've seen what happens when people live in fear, stress, anxiety around money in relationships with each other. Usually you break up at some point or you infect fear on those around you if you're responsible for their lives based on your energy. You don't create a safe space. And my whole journey has been about, you know, in terms of greatness is like emotional regulation and feeling peaceful. How can we feel rich, abundant, peaceful, and good with ourselves?

It's about a quality of relationship with ourselves and others and our quality of our relationship with money because it heightens the emotions of relationships in life. Yeah. That's why I wanted to take this angle because I see so many relationships suffer because of money stress. A lot of divorce happens because of money stress. and arguments and disagreements. And I think it's our responsibility as individuals who have platforms where we're trying to empower people is to give them the tools to be more empowered in their relationships.

And I know I struggled a lot with this. And so this was for me, as much as it is for others. Yeah. Speaking of relationships, you just got married. Just got married, man. Yeah, like two weeks ago, three weeks ago? Month ago? Month ago.

Yeah, yeah. Congrats, dude. Feels good. Feels good. And thanks for all your advice over the last couple of years talking about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, I'm happy for you guys. Thank you. She's, she's wonderful and you guys seem so happy together. Thank you. I'm curious what were your biggest lessons leading up to, both in like leading up to the relationship with Martha, but also like leading up to the wedding as well. I wanted to, I had so much, I guess, challenges in all my previous relationships.

They were not healthy in a lot of ways. And I take as much. I had as much. I guess, challenges in all my previous relationships. I did this. They were not healthy in a lot of ways. And I take as much. I take as much responsibility as the other people in those relationships. But I just said when I was getting in a relationship with Martha when we first started dating, I just promised myself I'm going to do everything completely opposite of what I've done before. The George Costanza strategy. I was like, whatever I did before, let me really take inventory. I'm not going to have, we're not, I'm not going to get sexual early. Yeah. I'm going to delay it as long as possible, which for me, it was like the hardest thing to do originally. But I was just like, I'm not going there. If I, I want to take this seriously and see if she's a potential fit and in alignment with what I want in my

life. And I can't make a clear decision if sex is involved. I can't. I know myself too well because I feel too much and I'll get too connected and I won't be able to make a good decision. So I need to eliminate that. That was one. Number two was I need to have the most honest, raw conversations and courageous conversations early and often. So we had money, money conversations early and often. We had conversations around kids, religion, sex, family, all these different things early and often, just exploring, hey, what does it really value? What do you really want?

This is before we were committed. And then before we were committed, we were going out on dating a lot. I was like, I'm not getting into another committed relationship unless someone's willing to go to therapy with me in the beginning. And she was like, I'm down. And every woman that I was with before, it ended in therapy and they never wanted to go. Right. So I was just like, I'm not doing this again where I'm the one feeling like I'm the only one growing, right, or willing to like invest in the relationship.

So she was like, I'm down. And we went to therapy early and often in the first year, not because something was wrong, but we wanted to create agreements early on. I'm just like, I grew up with my parents arguing and fighting so frequently that it just didn't feel good. And I was like, if I'm going to get in a relationship and get married and have kids in the future, I don't want that to be my environment. I just don't want it. So I want to make sure that there's anything that could be a disagreement. Let's talk about it now

and see if we're in alignment. And if we're arguing all the time because we can't find alignment, then we shouldn't be together. And let's end this quickly. Not try to have fun and be like the romance phase for two years, then have the hard conversations. I was like, I'd rather end this quickly

and you find a great guy and me find a great girl and us both be happy than forcing something. So those elements really created something beautiful for me and for her that allowed me to feel emotionally safe and peaceful like I've never felt my life and really feel like I could be a hundred percent me. And there was one condition I had for her when we got, when we got committed. I said, I told her, I will never get upset at you for who you're being. If this is who you are, which I think it's most of you, what I've seen in the first few months,

I have no reason to get upset at you unless you're lying to me about something, but I have no reason to get upset up for your personality because I like who you are, and I'm choosing to accept you. My only caveat is you can't get upset at me for who I am. If there's something that's upsetting you about me, we need to discuss about it and have a courageous conversation that is not screaming or make wrong or you need to change, None of that.

You can talk to me as much as you want about something, but you can't get upset at me and yell at me. It's just not something I'm willing to deal with. And so anything you have frustration with me, fine. Bring it up. Let's talk about it like human beings. And if we need to go to therapy, we can go create agreements around something.

And that was kind of like my only thing. Yeah. I won't get mad at you. You don't get mad at me. But it doesn't mean we don't hide our feelings or emotions around something. We courageously communicate frequently and as much. is possible if something's disturbing us. Yeah. I love that. And I love to, like a piece of advice I give the single people a lot is,

is have what you just said, have those serious conversations sooner. Yes. And the relationship for so many reasons. One is you just, you vet the other person earlier rather than later. It's, there's fewer emotions involved. You get less hurt. There's less fighting. But also having those conversations builds intimacy and trust. So you build the intimate. and trust at at the get-go rather than having to like, you know, chit-chat, talk about the weather, you know, whatever for three months and then like hope that intimacy spontaneously emerges, right? You just find out. And like, sure, you're going to scare some people off and, you know, you're going to find some

people who aren't right for you, but it's better to find it out then, you know, three, six months down the line. Exactly. Two, three years later. Yeah. And then have more pain later. So I have more pain now. by the uncomfortable conversations and have a lot less pain later.

Yeah. One more thing I want to talk to you about. Yes. I saw you, when did you tell me this? I think it was like end of last year. It was probably like August. Okay, like six, seven months ago. Yeah, yeah.

You and I hung out. Yeah, yeah. And you were like, I have a new goal. Yeah. And I was like, oh, cool. Like, very casually, I'm like, oh, cool, Lewis. Like, what's your goal? And then you're like, I'm going to play in the Olympics.

I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And then you explain to me what you meant. and now I feel like your biggest fan. You're invested. You're waiting for the, like, Lewis House Olympic vlog. I'm so... You'll be the one person that watches this. I'm so emotionally invested in this.

I'm going to be there in the front row. You better be there. If I make the Olympics, you got to cut. I will fucking be there. Tell me... So tell everybody. So this isn't necessarily a new goal. This is probably a goal I've had

or a dream since I was five. Yeah, since I was five. You know, since the first time I can... I remember watching sports on TV with my dad. It was like Ohio State football in the Olympics. It was like something that he loved watching. And I always wanted to play football and I always wanted to be in the Olympics

just by like being inspired by the stories of these athletes who've given their lives for a dream. And I've always loved that. And so for me, when I was done playing arena football, I got to live this dream for like six, seven months. Again, I didn't make the NFL, which was my ultimate dream, but I got to get paid to catch a football, which for me, it was kind of like I was poor but fulfilled. Right. You know, 250 bucks a week, you're making nothing.

But I was like, man, I'm living the dream. You know, it's okay. Give me food stamps all day long. I'm good to go. Because I was pursuing something that was meaningful to me. When that kind of injury happened, I broke my wrist, had to have surgery. I'm on my sister's couch. It's 2008.

I just get my cast off. It's the Summer Olympics. so I guess it's end of July. I just get it off a couple months before then. I'm still on my sister's couch. I'm watching the Olympics, Beijing, 2008. Michael Phelps is like the biggest thing in the world, you know. And at 3 a.m., there's a sport that comes on called Team Handball.

And I watch this and I'm mesmerized. I'm just like, what? I've never seen this before. And it was mesmerizing. And it's a big sport in Europe. No one knows what it is in the U.S. And I was like, it just activated a dream inside of me. This is 2008, and I was like, I'm going to the Olympics in handball.

I don't know how it's going to happen, but I'm going to figure out how to be on the USA team and qualify for the Olympics. I start Googling like crazy, like USA handball, teams in Ohio, wherever it might be. How can I find a team to go play for? There's no team in Ohio. There's club teams throughout the big cities in the USA. And I was just like, okay, there's a club team in New York City where they're the national champions, New York City handball team.

And I was like, I got to find a way to move to New York City. City and learn handball. I'm emailing like the USA handball organization, but there's no one replying to me. It's kind of unorganized. I'm like, how do I get a tryout? How do I make the team? Nothing's happening. So I'm like, I'm going to New York City to play with the national champs. I need a coach and a model that I can mimic, that I can go learn from. But I don't have any money. It takes me two years to make money where then I finally go to New York City. I show up because no one would reply to me by emailing people on the team. So they have an address of where they practice.

I show up to their address. It's in Brooklyn. And I go there and everyone's like, who are you? And I was like, my name's Lewis Howes. I'm here to make the USA national team and go to the Olympics. And there's probably 30 guys in the gym and they all started laughing at me.

No joke. I'm the only American in the gym. It's all like Eastern European guys who played professionally back in the day, Germany, France, Poland, all these places that have moved to New York to live and they just play for fun. And they were like, this is our last practice of the season. If you're serious, come back in three months if you want to play.

I come back in three months later, same thing. I play with the team for the next nine months. I make the USA national team. And in my mind, I'm like, this is incredible. I start playing with USA across my chest. And I'm playing in Buenos Aires against Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Mexico, all these international teams. And I get a taste of international competition of representing the USA. Some of the greatest moments are just wearing the jersey. It's incredible. And I was just like, I need to go to the Olympics.

But in order to go the Olympics in USA team handball, you'd have to win the Pan American games because they take one country from North and South America. You have to win that tournament to go. But we were never good enough to win this tournament. So my thought was, how could you? can the USA get the bid for the Olympics? If they can get it in 2016, 2020, I have a chance. They don't get the bid. So my dreams kind of like fall off because I'm like, it doesn't matter how good I get as a player. The team has to win. And that means the team has to be great. Brazil and Argentina and Chile are just better because they play since they're like seven. All of us play when we're like 25 when we find out about the sport. So we might be better

athletes, but they're better players. And so it was just like, we can never beat them, never be competitive enough. So my dreams kind of died for a while because I was like, oh, man, I'm never going to be able to do this. And this is the only sport I could potentially do this in because there's less competition in America. Yeah. That's why.

And then the bid for 2028 comes out. I think it was like 10 years ago when this happened or maybe it was eight years ago when this happened. And at that point, I was like, oh, man, this is 10 years away. I'm going to be 45 when this happens. And the dream just kind of started to like dwindle. And I was just like, it's so far away. And I can't train year round while I have this business and this show.

And like, I'm in L.A. I'd have to move to Europe. Is it worth it? And at the point, it wasn't. But I kept playing. I kept staying in shape. I kept trying to play with the USA team just for fun to see. I was like, maybe there's a chance, but I'm not going to officially retire.

And then the Olympics come around in August last year, and I saw you right after then. And I was like, I need to go to Paris and I need to watch some games and see if it's still alive with me. And I get there and, man, did that like dream just reactivate inside of me watching handball the Olympics. I was like, ah, I want this, you know, because I wanted to see like, do I even care anymore? Right. But it was like, man, it is there. I took a plane while I was in Paris to a team. to go see a coach and a team in Spain,

a professional team that I knew. Because he said, come out here and do a practice in the tryout. So I go out there and I do a practice. And I'm like, I think I'm not where I was 10 years ago, but I'm not horrible. Yeah. And I was like, with the right training, if I stay healthy, who knows what's possible?

And for the last, I guess, seven months, I've been rehabbing my body. I've been training. I've been doing all these different things. just for the opportunity to go play for a month with a team in Spain to see how that feels for one month. Now we're still three and a half years away. So much could happen the next three and a half years.

But I was telling you before we started this conversation, I just feel like I will always regret if I don't pursue this as far as it can go. And if there's a dream that I've had for this long, I can't just let it die. Unless I really don't care about it anymore and I say, ah, I don't have any. interest, then okay, let it die. But if there's like a fire inside you, I feel like you have to pursue it.

And there's going to be some beautiful lessons along the way. So we'll see. I mean, it's like a marathon and I'm just like one step, one day, one month at a time right now. How has it gone so far? I mean, you're what, four or five months into the journey? Yeah, four or five, maybe six months into the journey of just like rehabbing. I lost like 25 pounds. But there's definitely been some like injuries and setbacks and pains. And I'm like, oh, I can't play the way I used to. So I have to use vision, my mindset, recovery a different way.

I can't just be reckless. Yeah. You know, so it's learning how to play the game differently at this season of life. Okay. But so far, so good. I've played twice. I played in two games at the end of last year.

And there was a couple 27-year-old professionals that I was playing with. They were like, they're pretty good. And it was the first time in five years I played. So I was like, okay, I can still hang with like 25 year olds. Yeah. So if I can get better every day for the next three and a half years, who knows what's possible? Got to call up Tom Brady. Get that, get some of that. Give me the routine, the protocols, everything. The secret, the secret serum or something. I need it. Yeah. I need the, yeah. So I'm excited. You know, I think it's like, it's learning to be

grateful just for the opportunity every day to pursue it. Yeah. It's something I'm also excited about because it seems so far away, three and a half years, seems like forever right now for me. But I just am trying to bring it back to day by day. Like, I'm just grateful for the opportunity to pursue this. Yeah. And that gives me a lot of joy. I love ambitious goals.

And I love ambitious goals that are so ambitious. They seem like slightly unhinged. Crazy, man. Yeah, it seemed crazy. It just, it gets, and as soon as you started, because I remember you were like, I'm going to play in the Olympics. And I was like, what, Louis, what the fuck, dude? Like, did you start explaining it to me?

And I was like, bro, I'm fucking. You're like, maybe there's a chance. I'm in. Yeah, yeah. But just saying that, yeah, I'm going to be an Olympian. It seems like a crazy thing for some podcaster. Absolutely. You're like, what?

Okay, you don't you be still? Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But once you understand the context of it, it's like, if I can stay healthy and strong, I believe I have a very good chance in three and a half years. Well, I'm rooting for you. The audience is rooting for you. We'll keep tabs on you.

Yes. Check out the book. everybody. Lewis House. It's been a pleasure. Thanks, man. I appreciate you. Glad we got you on.

Thanks for having you, man. Awesome. The subtle art of Mac Getting a Fuck podcast is produced by Drew Bernie. It's edited by Andrew Nishamura. Jessica Choi is our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening and we will see you next week.