SOLVED with Mark Manson - The Harsh Truth About Self-Discipline (ft. Rich Roll)

Episode Date: June 5, 2024

I’ve often wondered if self-discipline is just a way of turning bad addictions into healthy ones. After all, addictions of all kinds are really just an attempt to numb and distract ourselves from facing uncomfortable feelings. Can’t the same be said for healthy behaviors once they reach a level of compulsion? I brought Rich Roll on the pod to discuss this idea because, well, he’s a recovered alcoholic who turned into an ultra-endurance athlete in his 40s. Rich is no stranger to reinventing himself, repeatedly leveraging his flaws into virtues. We talk about the value of pain as a catalyst for change, the idea that addiction is a spectrum that doesn’t just involve substances, terrible breakups, finding a deeper spirituality, lessons from Rich’s financial struggles, his career running a top podcast, and much, much more. Use the code IDGAF to get 20% off your one-time order at ⁠https://livemomentous.com/⁠ Get rid of unwanted subscriptions by signing up for Rocket Money at ⁠https://rocketmoney.com/idgaf⁠ Take my podcast survey ⁠https://markmanson.net/tellme⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey guys, before we get into it, if you listen to the show, you probably consume a lot of personal growth content. The books, the podcasts, YouTube videos, all of it. And you've probably noticed the gap between knowing what to do and then actually going out and doing it. You've got the insights, but what you don't have is something that connects them to your actual life. That's why I built purpose. It's a personal development AI that learns you, your patterns, your blind spots, all the stuff that you keep circling back to over and over again. Instead of handing you another framework, it gives you specific personalized direction.

So check it out. You can try it for free for seven days. Go to purpose.app. That is purpose. Dot struck me, about a year ago, a thought struck me, and I haven't really been able to shake it or come the terms with it since. And that thought is this. What if self-discipline is simply developing addictions that are good for you?

Like, what's the difference? If I feel compelled to run every day to keep myself happy, and if not running every day, makes me noticeably unhappy, how is that, psychologically speaking, any different from needing to have a drink every day to be happy? This idea really hit home for me the past few years with my health transformation. For example, I used to have terrible eating habits. Many of these poor eating habits resembled a kind of addiction. If you put a dessert in front of me after dinner, I literally did not know how to stop

the spoon from entering my mouth. Even if I was in pain, I couldn't stop eating it. If I ordered one drink, it was a given that drinks two, three, and four, would soon follow. It was simply unconscious. To not order them was extremely uncomfortable and slightly upsetting. Now initially when I started to undo these habits, I did what everybody does. I brute forced it. I created a plan and basically tortured myself until I stuck to it. But as time went on, what I noticed was that it didn't really work. At least, not in the long run. What I slowly realized is that eventually I had to train my body to become addicted to the things that were good for it.

If I don't eat plenty of vegetables and whole foods now, I start missing them. I start feeling worse for not eating them. If I go more than two or three days without exercise, I start to get antsy and fidgety and irritable until I can exercise again. It was in this that I realized that getting healthy wasn't so much defeating my unhealthy demons, so much as converting them into healthy angels. I look around at the other areas of my life and I notice the same thing. I'm absolutely addicted to work.

My wife has long known that when we go on vacation, I'm gonna be anxious and irritable the first couple days until I get over not being able to work. Now, depending on who you ask, that means I'm either prodigiously productive, or I'm a fucking workaholic who is barely managing his personal life. Who's to say? To be honest, both things are probably true. I guess what I'm saying is that over the past couple years, I'm slowly arriving at the view that one doesn't necessarily get rid of addictive or compulsive behaviors, so much as steer them into healthier addictions and compulsions.

Now, my guest today is the perfect person to discuss this nuance of our psychology. Rich Roll is most famous as a podcaster. In fact, many of you likely listen to his podcast. He's one of the most requested guests that I've gotten. But before he was a podcaster, he was an ultra-endurance athlete. He once completed five Iron Man triathlons on five consecutive days. I know. What the fuck. And more notably, his entire ultra-endurance career occurred after the age of 40. But perhaps, most interestingly, Rich is also a recovered alcoholic. We're talking serious, wake up and pour yourself a vodka tonic before breakfast type of alcoholic.

And it wasn't until he got sober that he developed an interest in ultra-endurts athletics. Now Rich and I go deep on this one. We talk about all sorts of stuff related to addiction, but also goals, productivity, and discipline. We talk about the relationship between addiction and dedication, and if there really is a difference between the two. We talk about the need for extreme experience and how this has both an outsized, positive and negative results in our lives. We discuss the 12-step program, what they get right and what they might get wrong, and why they've been so effective for so many people for over a century now.

We talk about how addiction is not actually the problem, but a failed solution to the real problem and what that problem might be. We talk about how to define a secular version of spirituality and how it relates to self-acceptance, forgiveness and physical fitness. We talk about how Rich spent seven years barely able to financially support his family before his career finally took off and how he managed his relationships and stayed motivated through that time. And finally, Rich shares with us what he truly does and doesn't give a fuck about.

All of that and much more. Now, back to Rich Roll. Let's get into it. Bro, do you even podcast like bro. This is the summer. Art of Not Giving a Fuck podcast with your host, Mark Manson. Rich, so good to have you, dude. Good to see you.

Thanks for having me, ma'am. I'm sorry about this. Last time I saw you, we had a conversation. We didn't get too far into it. Like, ever since I saw you, I've been like, I want to talk about this again. I asked you a question. I said, is there a connection between recovered addicts and ultra-athletes? because I'm curious of the connection between the compulsive repetitive behavior behind each.

Yeah, 100%. There's a huge overlap. I don't know if there's a direct pipeline between recovery and ultra-endurance sports. Maybe like Elon Musk create a boring tunnel in between the two. There's certainly a correlation there. And I think it has a lot to do with the fact that addicts, by their very nature, and this is just generalizing, are drawn to extremes. They're looking for extreme experiences.

And they do that when they're active in their disease to quiet the discomfort that they're experiencing. They will reach outside of themselves for a substance or a behavior or anything that will medicate them and ameliorate whatever kind of pain they're experiencing. And I think in recovery, you get tools for how to then treat that underlying emotional disposition to live a healthier life. But the gambling or the heroin or the alcohol or, you know, choose your poison isn't the problem. That's the solution to the problem. And when you get sober and you have to break up with your best friend, this thing that you've relied upon to, you know, to kind of navigate life for so long,

And when that's taken away from you, you're like this live wire of emotional confusion. And the tools that you learn in recovery are meant to address that to create what we call emotional sobriety. And they allow you to then live a more balanced life. But at the core of myself and I've learned in recovery, like I don't speak for everyone, I can only speak to my own experiences, is still that allure to kind of step in. into extreme experiences as a way of kind of heightening your lived experience, but also I think there's something that is inherent within many addicts to be a seeker, seeking for answers.

And the addict will seek those answers in unhealthy ways until they crash and burn and have to find another way. But that sensibility or that inclination towards seeking remains. And I think ultra-endurance is a vehicle for doing that in a healthier way. I also think that addicts can leverage ultra-endurance sports to run away from their problems in the same way that they use drugs and alcohol. And so a question that I get quite frequently is, like, well, isn't that just your alcoholism?

Like, you're just using this sport in the same way that you used alcohol. And the answer that I give to that is probably. You know, there's some truth to that. I think anybody who says otherwise isn't really being honest. There is an escapism, I think, where you can run away from your problems because I'm training for this thing. And you don't really have to deal with your life. But I also think the other piece that's important to understand is that you're inviting a difficult experience into your life. And that's a much harder choice to make.

than reaching for the bottle, which is always the easy choice. Like, it's hard to put your running shoes on when it's cold and rainy out and get out the door. What's easy is to do that thing that you always did that always ends up with the same result, which is to get loaded and, like, check out. Yeah. So it's not a binary thing. I think it's a more nuanced, complicated thing. But I think that's why ultra endurance is a magnet for so many people in recovery.

If you show up at the starting line of one of these races, lots of fully tatted dudes and sleeves, you know, like, I know you. A lot of recovering heroin addicts and things like that. And I think, you know, it's a way of indulging that proclivity towards extremism, but to do it in a healthier way. There's a lot of interesting threads that I think tie between the two. one is a relationship with pain, I think doing something that is difficult and hurts, but continuing to do it anyway. Like I think, you know, most people, they get to beer number three or four and they're like, oh, I'm starting to feel bad. I'm going to stop now. Similarly, most people get to mile three or mile four and they're like, this feels bad.

I'm going to stop now. And so the personality type that keeps going through both of those things, it's, I find it really interesting. disposition towards pain or discomfort. So I consider myself both a failed endurance athlete and a failed alcoholic. And it's one of the things. Failed alcohol. I drank a lot, but I just couldn't quite, you know, get over the hump. I failed an alcoholism or succeeded.

I think if you're a successful alcoholic, does that mean that you are able to be a functional drinker for the rest of your life? Anyway, go ahead. Anyway, I don't know what I am. We could talk about that later. I quit drinking a couple years ago. And you look a lot better. You look a lot thinner.

You look trim, fit. Your skin looks different. I'd actually like to talk about that at some point. But it has been profound. I've heard that there's a high that people get during the endurance training. You know, once you push through a certain amount of pain, there's kind of this endorphin rush that starts happening. But I'm curious how you would describe your relationship to pain. I mean, pain is pain has.

Pain has been my greatest teacher. And I think from a general perspective, when you talk about pain or you want to define the playing field here, you have to look at the motivation behind the pain. The alcoholic might seek out pain because there's this fundamental sense that you're a piece of shit and you're worthless and you want to punish yourself to validate the veracity of that, you know, that idea. On the flip side, you know, pain can be this incredibly powerful master and teacher. Like, if you're willing to invite a certain amount of suffering into your life and you develop the wherewithal the capacity to kind of see yourself through it to the other side, that's very empowering. Like, that can be an act of self-esteem if your motivation is correct and

you're approaching it from a place of trying to grow as opposed to the former, which I already described. In my own case, you know, pain is really, you know, pain, pain's really the only thing that's ever gotten me to like change my ways. Like, I'm a stubborn motherfucker and like, I don't really wanna get out of my comfort zone and look at my behavior patterns

and my looping thoughts and all my character defects. So it's only, when they lead me so astray and have created a sufficient amount of like angst and negative life outcomes that I'm finally forced to like confront the behavior and make the change. And that change is being driven by pain. So pain can be this lever, you know, if you're present enough with yourself and have a degree of self-awareness to understand when certain things are going awry and you want a course correct. Of course, I mean, you know better than anybody. The choice is always

available to do something different. You don't have to be in pain to make a change. I just think there's something wired into our, you know, into ourselves, into our bodies and into our minds that make us resistant to that until we've suffered adequately. I've heard you talk about the turning points in your life and those, they come from a great deal of pain a lot of times. And I've heard addicts say the same thing, that they required a lot of pain in order to change. What was it about those times, though, where you did actually change? Was it just the requisite amount of pain? Was it some sort of mix of pain and perspective that you had that led you to be able to change things around? Or was it

just the pain itself? I mean, was there anything that was really, coupled with that pain that. Yeah, it's a good question. I don't know that I have a super satisfying answer to that. When I think back on the day that I finally decided to get sober and go to treatment, that morning wasn't dissimilar from a thousand other mornings that I woke up hungover. And it wasn't like there was an incident the night before that was a catalyst to that. For many years, I knew I was an alcoholic.

It wasn't like a mystery. You know, I knew that at some point I would probably, I was probably going to have to like deal with this problem. I was just unwilling to. And I think there is room for a little bit of mysticism here. Like that day that I woke up, suddenly I was blessed with a level of willingness that I didn't have before. Where did that come from? I don't know. It wasn't, there's no direct relationship with any event that had occurred the day before, even the day before.

even the day before that, it was a growing awareness that this was a problem that was met with, you know, a sort of existential angst that was becoming increasingly more intense until one day I was like, I'm done. Yeah. You know, I'm done. And I don't know why it was that day. But I think, you know, to extrapolate on that point, it was like this portal open. There was a, you know, in the book I talk about like a line in the sand, like just this moment

where this is the moment. And I know if I don't act now, that moment will pass. And I don't know when I'll be revisited with the level of kind of willingness that I'm experiencing now. And that was the same experience that I had when, you know, I was turning 40 and was fat and overweight and sedentary and, you know, just disgusted with my career path and very confused about what to do with myself that I once again had a moment of willingness that was met with a sufficient amount of pain that motivated me to like take immediate action

and try to do something different. But I don't know, like I can't deconstruct it anymore than that. It's an interesting question because I think people tend to romanticize or dramatize those turning moments, like those turning points and those rock bottom moments. And what's interesting about your story is that you had a number of moments that probably should have been, Like you got arrested you had DUIs you had a marriage that failed like those are all kind of your classic rock bottom moments But it was interesting that you you know you kind of denied your way through all those and then it was a more quotidian moment That you're like oh I got to get my shit together and you you alluded to the

The health decision as well like it's just kind of you wake up one day and You go up a set of stairs and you're like oh my god. I can't do this right I found that true in my own life as well well. Like there's like the big major moments that should have like woken me up to something. Don't. Yeah. And then it's like a random Tuesday a month later that I'm like, oh, wait. Yeah. You know, maybe I should quit drinking. Yeah. Yeah. Reality is is a lot more mundane than, you know, the narrative or the story that we can spend from it. And it's funny because I was reflecting on this last night as I was going to sleep and I was thinking about the number of times that I drove under the influence, starting when I was a teenager.

Like, my life was spared a thousand times over. You know, and any one of those incidents should have been a wake-up call, could have been a wake-up call. On some level, it gets lodged in your brain. You know that you're, you know, not acting in your own best interest, but it doesn't move the needle. Like, with true addiction and alcoholism, the denial is so powerful. And the capacity to rationalize your,

your circumstance is profound. And it takes a lot to get to a place where that denial starts to fracture and you begin to see the reality of your predicament. And it's not something that you can will upon another person, which is why it's so baffling and heartbreaking to be in a relationship with someone who's suffering from addiction. You know, I talk to a lot of parents and partners of people who are in the throes of addiction and, you know, they say, what do I do? And it's like, you can stage an intervention whether or not that's going to stick or not. It usually doesn't because you can't compel another person to be willing to raise their hand and not just ask for help, but like receive that help.

It's an internally driven thing that's very dependent upon that person's interior circumstances. and the elevator, you know, they say, oh, you hit bottom. Like, I had lots of bottoms, you know. And the day that I got sober was not the worst day, right? So when you think you've hit bottom, there's always another, the elevator can keep going down. And when you're, when you're, when you're, when you are an addict in denial, you're always quick to look around and identify the people who are worse than you and say, well, I'm not that guy. Yeah. Like, I'm not homeless.

I'm not this. I'm not that. So I'm okay. Or if I can wake up and go to a job or if I can wake up and go to the gym, no matter how horrible I feel, then I'm okay. And that will, you know, propel the addiction further and further and further until it just becomes so undeniable. And then you're faced with that choice. You've talked about addiction as a spectrum. Can you describe more of what you mean by that?

I think we're in an interesting moment right now where I think people are beginning. to understand that addiction isn't a binary thing, that it does live on a spectrum. And I think that's in large part due to social media and our relationships with our phones, where we all experience some level of compulsion or obsessive behavior and we continue to do something that we know is making us unhappy.

For a long time, addiction was seen as sort of an on-off switch. Like you're a heroin addict who can't pull the needle out of your arm or you're the drunk who's in the gutter and living in a tent down on Skid Row. But the longer I've been in the world of recovery and thought about this, I really do believe that it is a spectrum condition that afflicts almost everybody on some level. Yeah. So you don't have to be a full-blown alcoholic or a drug addict to be someone who has some form of addiction in your life. If you're somebody who, because of your childhood trauma always ends up with the same kind of person in a dysfunctional relationship

and you repeat that pattern again and again and again despite, you know, it being abusive or what have you, there is some argument to be made that there is a piece there that's, if not technically addiction, is related to addiction. Like we're compelled by our past by, you know, the wiring that was installed when we were kids and the experiences that we had that end up, you know, dictating a lot of behavior patterns that move us in the wrong direction. And it doesn't take much these days with technology to override our dopamine system and kind of hijack our brains and compel us to do things that otherwise we wouldn't or that we thought that we, you know, weren't going to. And I think it's

it's sort of liberating to think of it in that context that on some level we can all relate to this a little bit better and we don't have to think of people who are truly in the throes of addiction as you know bad people but rather everyday normal people who who have been hijacked to a more extreme degree of you know what we can all kind of relate to in our daily lives. I'm curious because I've been thinking about this. Part of it's the alcohol thing, quitting alcohol, struggling with this idea. I feel like I'm in this, I don't know if I would ever identify as an alcoholic, but it was a problem and I was in denial about it. But I'm curious, like I agree with your take on addiction as a spectrum and I can see many areas of my life

that I act more compulsively than I would like. I'm curious, all three of us, what are each of us most addicted to at the moment. Like if you had to pick one thing in your life today that you feel is like your most addictive activity, for me it's work. I'm a workaholic. My name is Mark. I'm a workaholic. Yeah. But I mean, I've got like I struggle food. I struggle. But let me ask you this. When you quit drinking, did that result in an increase in workaholism? Did the intensity of your work. Yeah, so you have the underlying wound or whatever it is that you were medicating. You remove the alcohol, but that that like beast is still in there and it's looking for something to feed it. And so it's going to reach for whatever is available

that's going to give it that, give you that sense of, you know, kind of medicating or distracting you from whatever those challenging emotions are that led you to an unhealthy relationship with alcohol to begin with. So I think like, excavating what those emotions are and then finding a way to address and ultimately heal them is where the liberation is found. But I would share that with you. If I had to raise my hand right now, I would say, you know, workaholism for sure. Yeah.

I work way too much and I can distract myself from discomfort by just plowing into work. And then my phone, like everyone else. I'm like, you know, like I know better, you know. and I continue to scroll more than I, you know, more than I like. And I don't end up reading books and doing other things that, you know, I used to do as a result. Totally. True. Work is definitely, I don't know if I've ever labeled it as an addiction. I quit drinking a few years ago, too.

And now I'm off social media for the most part. I don't really read news. True has no vices. Yeah. That's not true. No, that's not true. Including these vices, I'm going to uncover more, I think, too. I've used work as I haven't label an addiction, but I do definitely know it's a distraction for me, for sure.

And it's getting right to that what you were just talking about. You're distracting yourself from whatever the underlying issue there was. I don't know exactly what mine is either, and I'm kind of trying to figure that out as well. But I think with definitely with quitting like social media news, stuff like that, I realized how addicted I was to just that kind of self-righteous indignation, feeling moral superiority that I felt that kind of thing. Yeah. That's a new one.

Yeah. That's like really a problem. That since I've, since I've quit all of that, I've noticed just how I just don't have that as much anymore. But I was definitely addicted to that for sure. Yeah. I wonder like, because absolutely, like there is some underlying angst or emotion. There's this, the term addictive personality.

Like, do you think that there's just some people who are just fundamentally more addiction prone than others? I think so. I think there's a genetic piece to it, for sure. But I don't think that that genetic piece is determinative. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Well, this raises another question.

This kind of gets into the workahism thing. It's like, depending what room I'm in, like, if I'm in a room with, like, my family and my wife, I'm a workaholic. But if I'm at a conference, I'm an extremely disciplined entrepreneur. who is absolutely crushing it. Well, workaholics and is socially validated. Yeah, yeah. You're not a pariah if you're workaholic. You're just, you're on your hustle, you know, and that gets celebrated.

And that, I think, becomes, you know, when you shroud your addiction in accolades and, you know, and celebration, it's a lot harder to confront it. Yeah. You know. Like, you go on the internet and you talk about how. how hard you work and your hustle porn and all that kind of stuff. And it's like, that's a way to like, you know, enhance your social profile and your status and the like, right? So, but fundamentally, it's no different than the addictions that we frown upon and shun people for.

Well, it's to bring it back to the athletics, too. You know, like you hear stories about Kobe Bryant and Tom Brady and. Right. And it's- Or the Iron Man Widow. You know what I mean? You can use all of these things to run away. It's like, are you running towards something or are you running away from something?

Yeah. How do you know the difference? I think the more self-actualized and internally connected you are, the more trustworthy your instincts are, the more reliable your gut is. And when you do that gut check, it will kind of tell you where you're at. But if you're living a reactive life and you're bouncing around and there's not a lot of internal reflection, I don't think that your instincts or your gut are really leading you. They're not trustworthy in the same way. So you could lie to yourself more with more facility. Yeah.

Do you think that modern distractions in these modern addictions really lend themselves to that more? Yeah, just imagine. We all think that we're sentient beings who are forming, you know, solid opinions based upon available evidence. And we're completely in denial in terms of the extent to which we're being constantly manipulated. I mean, it used to just be television commercials and billboards and, you know, we have an awareness that we're being sold to. But now, every single one of us has our own bespoke news feed driven by an algorithm that knows you better than you know yourself, that serves up ads that are specifically programmed to get you to buy something. and an information flow that affirms your worldview or stokes your ire in the way that you were talking about.

And I think we're running this, I mean, I'm not the first to say this, this massive social experiment where we're crafting human beings who basically are walking around in a reactive way, unaware of the vast extent to which they've been manipulated for, you know, whether it's somebody else's agenda, about actors' agenda, or just the machinations of our increasingly algorithm-driven world, it's not a great thing. Yeah. That's what I, after like quitting news and stuff like that, something I came to realize was that I have deeply held opinions and beliefs about places and people I've never seen or met or

or been to or anything like that. And that to me was like, wow, that was a very big wake-up call for me. It's interesting. I don't know if you've had this experience, but like since kind of exiting the news media cycle, the media shitstorm and being on the outside, when I come across people who are inside it and really worked up about whatever issue they're worked up about, it's very similar to like being sober and coming across a very drunk person and being like, wow, I can't Levi used to be like that. You know, like, holy shit. It's eye-opening for sure. Like, it's,

it's pretty, it's pretty wild. Would you say that the 12-step program saved your life? 100%. So since you went through this 12-step program, you've started a podcast, you've interviewed hundreds of people, you've done all this research, all this work on yourself, read all these books, talked to dozens and dozens of experts. I'm curious, has your perspective on the 12-step program changed and if so how. And I'd be curious, given your knowledge and experience since, because the world of psychology and psychological intervention is just, it's notorious for nothing being consistent or working consistently, like other than therapy and a couple other things.

Like nothing has really stood the test of time except for the 12-step program. 12-step program is one of the few interventions that's still around 100 years later, still working for people. So I'm curious just like what your broader take on it is. I'm a staunch defender of 12 Step. I'm a firm believer in it. I'm fully indoctrinated in it. I absolutely believe that it not only saved my life, but it continues to save my life. And I've seen it produce miracles. Like I've seen it, I've seen people come in to the program, completely broken and on one like on a surface level appear to be utterly unredeemable with all kinds of mental issues etc where you're just like well that that that's like a lost cause over there

and then I've seen them get well and become not just productive members of society but incredible inspiring examples of service like I you know the level of service that I see selfless service every single day in the rooms is something I don't see in my normal life. It works. As they say, it works if you work it. And, you know, AAA12 step gets a lot of shit. People who aren't part of that community are very quick to dismiss it as this archaic, you know, relic of a bygone era. And now we have science and we have all these tools. And I've been around long enough to see every couple years something pops up where it's like everything you know about sobriety is wrong

and here's our new solution or our new protocol and you don't have to do that bullshit and now you can do this. It's like, okay, you know, and they come and they go and they come and they go. But you know what persists? 12-step. And I think the tools that you learn in this program

are tools for life. Like anybody, you don't have to be an addict to benefit from them. It basically provides you with this incredible framework to evaluate your, not just your behavior and your character proclivities, but also your resentments and your fears. And it's very action-oriented. It's like, okay, you do this inventory. And then you identify patterns in your behavior that then lead you to understand, you know,

why you behave a certain way in a certain context. And then it compels you to visit all of these people that you've wronged over the course of your life or that you've resented or, you know, that you've transgressed in some way. And you're not meant to apologize to these people. You're meant to make an amend, which means to make it right. Like you have to correct the past. And there's something very challenging about that and confronting, but also liberating because you're basically cleaning up your past. So all of the guilt and embarrassment and shame, you know, shame is like this driver, you know, that keeps people stuck and small and alone. When you make those amends and you kind of embrace a more spiritual way of life, there's a liberty to that.

There's an incredible freedom where your past no longer owns you. And you have this experience that you can then share with other people to be helpful to them. they say, you know, like they say in a like stick with the winners. And then the question is, well, who are the, how do I know who the winners are? And the answer is we take turns. You know, it's like, you know, all we have is today. And it doesn't matter how long you've been sober, you're still going to have hard times, you're still going to have resentments and things that come up and challenges.

And so we take turns and we support each other. And I don't know any other kind of community-based thing where, you can show up to a room with a group of people and have nothing to give, nothing to contribute, feel totally alone and broken, and people will come up to you and help you and want nothing in return. Like, it's really a remarkable thing. And it's persisted not just because the tools actually work and improve lives, but also because of this sort of distributed responsibility. Like, there's no boss, there's no one in charge. There's no real organization that's controlling anything.

Like, it's almost as if they figured out a model that's allowed it to evolve over time and stay true to its roots and its essence. I feel like Harvard Business School should do a case study on this. Like, like, how is it that it hasn't been corrupted or there isn't some leader, you know, who's, you know, squirling away the money or any of anything that we see. that any organization, when it reaches a certain scale, ultimately, you know, sows the seeds of its of its downfall. And it survives because of this really cool model where each meeting is independent of the other meetings.

And there's a loose network and there is a home office and all this sort of stuff. But everything is volunteer basis and nobody is in charge. Just a bunch of lunatic addicts and alcoholics. Like the least reliable people in the world. You know what I mean? Like that's just the addict irony. on top of the whole thing. Like, it's just a massive insane asylum, you know.

And there's something really kind of like amazing and beautiful about that. But there was another part to your question. How is my relationship with it changed? Or has it changed? Or has it changed? Yeah. I think one thing that's changed is I'm far less judgmental of people who find sobriety in other ways. You know, I used to be pretty hardcore, like, oh, it only has to be this way.

And now I know plenty of people who have gotten sober or just decided not to, you know, use drugs or alcohol or quick gambling or whatever in their own unique ways. And I used to be like, yeah, we'll see. You know, call me in a year and we'll see how it's going. But I'm much more open-minded about that. And I think the other thing that maybe has changed is that I don't look to A.A. as the only remedy to what ails me. I'm a big believer in therapy. I have a men's group that I attend where I sit down once a week with like seven guys. And it's moderated by a therapist. And that's just about life stuff, relationships, you know, stuff I wouldn't take. to AA because it's not really about my alcoholism, but I have other problems that aren't necessarily related to my alcoholism that I need feedback on. And then cultivating spiritual growth in other ways, too. I mean, A.A. is a spiritual program, but in the meetings, you don't hear a lot about that other than

we end with meditation. But fundamentally, if you read the big book of Alcoholics of Alcoholics Anonymous, It is all about, like, developing a relationship with the beyond in your own way. Like, there's no dictates around what that looks like. And I think that I've learned to explore that outside of the construct of 12-step. And that's also been beneficial. I got a question about amends. If we can go back to that real quick. I wanted to ask somebody about this.

Because I think a lot of people do, outside of addiction, even to struggle with, how to deal with forgiveness and everything like that. When you do go back, I'm sure that it's a very healing experience to go back and make amends with people and when they accept it, it's great. Sometimes, not always. Right. Doesn't always go talk about that.

Yeah, yeah, go ahead. But also, also, I think there's probably more valuable experience than the people who don't accept that from you, right? Who reject your amends making or reject who don't forgive you? What's that experience like, I guess? Because I'm sure there were people like that who, you know, Didn't accept your, you're pleased for amends. Yeah, and that's fine.

Yeah, that's fine. The amend isn't necessarily for them. It's for you to liberate yourself from your emotional ties to that experience. And it's not always going to go well. And in certain cases, it's not even appropriate to make a direct amend to that person because the rule is, you know, you're there, you're there to like, you're there to like heal a situation. And if it's so broken or the relationship is so problematic and you know that approaching them directly isn't going to go well and it might harm that person or upset them in a way that's really not kind or in service to that person, then the amend has to be

a living amend. Like whatever behavior, you know, however you contributed to that unhealthy dynamic, the amend is to not engage in that behavior anymore going forward, right? And I think that comes up a lot with sexual relationships and the sexual inventory that you do. Like, it's not appropriate to go back to some person that you cheated on or harmed in some way and like just, you know, where you had an unhealthy kind of dynamic with them. Like they don't want to hear from you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like you're disrupting their life to do that. So it's like, okay, you can write a letter maybe or, you know, better yet, maybe you just don't do that behavior anymore. Speaking of cheating exes, how do you like that segue? I was really blown away by this passage in your book for listeners. You had an almost marriage. Basically, you broke up on the honeymoon.

But I was blown away, and we can cover that if you want. But you wrote here, I've come to appreciate that great beauty lies and destruction. Looking back, it is undeniable that the wedding that nearly destroyed me was absolutely crucial in precipitating my ultimate salvation. And for this, I am and will always be eternally grateful. I get a lot of emails from people with horrible breakups, cheating partners, failed marriages, people full of resentment,

full of rage, confusion, anger. And I feel like that paragraph is, if you could get, if I could snap my finger and get everybody to a spot, like that's the spot you want them to get at. I'm curious,

A, like, how long of a process was that for you? And B, what did that process look like? It was a long process. It took me, I mean, I was out of my skull when that was going on. And that really was my bottom, you know, and it was so painful that I had to drink. There's no way I could have immediately gotten sober. I was so emotionally distraught in the wake of that experience that I felt I had no choice other than to medicate myself until I got to a point, you know, where I hit that bottom and decided to get sober. It's the most painful thing. that I've ever gone through. So I got to that place through time, of course.

You know, you can't make that assessment when you're in the heat of that experience. It's only with perspective. And perspective requires patience and time. And then doing, you know, a huge amount of work. And that work involved therapy and also 12-step. And it was very much focused on identifying my behavior and, and completely taking her behavior out of it. We like to point fingers and be a victim and say,

they did this and they did this and they did this. And these are all the reasons why I'm suffering. But really, all that does is create more suffering, more victimhood, more blame. And it doesn't really solve the problem or move you forward or out of it. For me, the way through was to just get super honest and clear with how I, not only participated in that dynamic, but helped to create it. Like these things, relationships don't happen because one person did something to you. There's always somebody who created a scenario in which it made it possible for that person

to make that choice that you're so upset about. So all you can do is do an inventory of what that behavior is and try to correct it and try to understand why you created that situation. And then on a macro level to really believe that things aren't happening to you, they're happening for you. And these difficult experiences that we have, it goes back to the conversation around pain. When bad things happen, it is an opportunity for growth. And I think we're here to grow.

And our job is to identify the growth opportunity in those challenging moments. and in those obstacles. And no one wants to hear that when they're in it. You know what I mean? And I certainly did it. I certainly did it. You know, I'm not here to tell you I'm like some kind of master here. I was a fucking wreck, you know, and I acted poorly.

And I did a lot to contribute to this very painful situation that I had to go through. And I'm grateful for it because it gave me clarity on how I was living my life and set in motion a trajectory. for how to create a better life for myself. And I think when I look back on it now, it's like, thank God that happened. Thank God that happened. You know, had that not happen, I don't know that I would be sitting here having this conversation with you. And I live an amazing life now.

And all of these painful experiences are not just stops along the way, you know, guideposts, but they're my greatest teachers. And if you can develop the objectivity and the groundedness and the wherewithal to look at them and say, what can I learn from this experience and how can I change and grow, I think that that is, that's the way that you, you know, kind of elevate beyond those experiences and create new experiences for yourself that are better for you. So what would you say to somebody in that moment? Because it's, like you said, it's nobody wants to hear that in there.

I know. I know. Yeah. I mean, I'm not a therapist. I'm trying to think like the thing that I would say is like do an inventory on your behavior. Like I want to write down every single way in which you, you know, created, your behaviors contributed to this happening. And just own that for yourself. Like take ownership over. You can't control what another person is going to do or how they're going to behave. That's part of what makes us insane because we wish that we could or we dilute ourselves into thinking. that we can do that, all you can do is control your own behavior and your reaction or your response to external events. And when you develop some capacity over that, that's where you begin to have agency over your life. And I think the rage and the upset, part of that, part of that, I think, derives from a lack of agency, that victimhood. Like, somebody did that to me, and it was wrong.

there's a justice piece there too. Like I this is unjust, it's unfair and you want everybody to know just how unfairly you've been treated. But what are you going to do with that? How is that informing how you're moving forward? The only thing that's going to help you take a better step forward is to really redress your own behavior and the ways in which you co-created that suboptimal situation for yourself. You can either be right or be happy. Right. Yeah. Would you say that some of that, it's almost like transmuting those painful experiences into growth.

Because you've mentioned now a few times in the conversation, spirituality. The primary question is like, how do you see spirituality? And then do you see that as being part of it? Yeah, spirituality is definitely part of it. I get asked a lot like how I define spirituality. I never have a good answer to this. I wish I should really work on it. Does anyone have to be

some really pithy, like, cool way of answering this? I mean, it's definitely something that has nothing to do with any religious dogma. I just believe in... I believe in the ways in which the mystical beyond is working in our lives for us. And all I have to do is reflect on my own life

and all the thousands of ways in which, like, I feel like I've been taken care of or spared from disaster or, you know, the bad decisions that I've made in the course of my life. And there's just no way, like I'm very clear on the fact that the life that I live today, which I love and is beyond anything I could have ever imagined for myself, has anything to do with like my planning or myself will. It just doesn't. It unfolded organically as a direct result of investing in myself and trying to be a better human, a human who operates from a greater place of integrity by being of service to other people. Like, the more I'm of service to someone else and I get out of my own head and my self-obsession and my ego, which is like a problem, you know, like it's not my, it's not my, you know, it's not my, I'm not, I don't wake up

grateful and looking forward to like helping other people. I want to do what I want to do. I want to be a workaholic and I want to like just basically caress my ego and, you know, all that kind of shit, right? But when I get out of myself and I extend myself selflessly to others, my life gets better and magical, amazing things tend to, and the problems that seem overwhelming somehow seem to get solved. And I have no explanation for that. And I think that provides space for me to cultivate a little awe and wonder. And humility also.

Yeah. We think we know what's going on. I mean, we're like on this rock spinning around and we're in space and we're like, yeah, I understand that. Like, are you fucking kidding me? Like, we don't actually know what's going on. And the more you look into science at the subatomic particle level all the way to the you know, dark matter, dark energy, you know, expanding universe level, the more insane it is.

And so I think the idea that we think we understand what's happening is our ego. And I think to just appreciate that maybe we're missing that extra lobe in our brain that would allow us to see things more clearly provides an opening for me to have an appreciation for the beyond. And it allows me to transcend the wily ways of the ego. Yeah. And I think you talk to about we're always in a constant state of flux. It's not a static life that we live or even a universe that we're in and getting to that all the way from the subatomic all the way up to the cosmic level.

And how we fight against that so much. we think things are static so many times. If we just did this, then this would happen. I think there's a very spiritual component to that, too. The older idea, the more I see that as well. It's just like you're not in control. You're very, very much not in control. You're not in control.

And yeah, people are the way they are. And this is the way things are. Right. It's like everything is, yeah, to the subatine, everything's vibrating. There's nothing that's ever still ever. So nothing is constant other than change. Change is what's constant. We're always changing.

We're always evolving. always regressing. We're always doing all of these things. And we walk around under this delusion that things are the way they are. Yeah. And I think, again, like to to like hone in on that is another way of like cultivating a little much needed humility. What would you say too is like the, you know, in your ultra training and everything like that, what's the relationship between the physical and the spiritual there? You kind of, you mentioned it at the outset about kind of, kind of testing yourselves and pushing yourself giving at the edge. What's that connection for you between kind of the more extreme physical things you've done

and a spirituality that you've found in it? I've always been fascinated by that. It's a great question. I mean, to me, it's all spiritual. Like the physical was just a vehicle for connecting with something more spiritual. And I think had I had the opportunity to do it again, I don't know that I would. would put a picture of me running on the cover of this book. Like, I think, I think, you know.

God damn, look at that. The physique. The, yeah, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, the, the, the, the mistake that gets made is that people think it's a book about running when, and, and, and on some level, I guess it is, but the point that I was trying to make is, like, my immersion into the world of ultra endurance and training for these races and participating in them was far less about becoming. this competitive athlete in my mid-40s and much more about, you know, a sort of more relatable

journey that we all go on to try to discover who we are and what we're, you know, who were meant to be and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, I, I, even, it was an unconscious thing. Like I started doing this thing, running and riding my bike long distances because I was in so much existential angst about how I was living and I didn't know how to change my life. And I needed all of that time alone by myself in that state of, you know, kind of low grade but elevated exertion where it's just your breath. There's something, you know, kind of actively meditative about that that allowed me to just feel connected to my body in a very tactile way and the space and the time to really wrestle

with these questions and figure out who it was that I wanted to be. So again, like sport was a vehicle for this for me and for somebody else it could be something entirely different. It was really meant as a metaphor as much as anything else for the exploration I think we all go on at some point in our lives, whether foisted upon us through crisis or just by circumstances in our lives where we're where we're we're we turn in. inward, you know, for answers because we realize we've been living our life on autopilot or, or, you know, on the wishes of our parents or social pressures or what have you. And we need to find, you know, we need to find meaning and purpose for ourselves. So as a failed endurance. Why do you keep saying that, though?

There's no failure. Why? I said that. I'm saying that tongue in cheek because podcast listeners know that I started training for a Marathon at the beginning of this year. And I was really good up to like 10 or 12 miles. Yeah. And then.

But this is part of the process. And I was like, I was like, fuck this shit. You're placing that label on this. Fuck this shit. Don't deny yourself your process. You don't have to be in endurance. I'm joking. I'm totally joking.

But I really am curious because it's like running for two to three hours is incredibly uncomfortable, even at a slow pace. And what surprised me about it was like, it wasn't physically hard in the way that like say trying to run like a six minute mile is hard like that's just absolutely

there's like an intensity to that exertion the the endurance stuff was like it was like this low level throbbing it's just like pure how long can you stand this and and apparently I can't stand it for more than a couple hours because I was like, fuck this shit, I'm done. But I'm curious because, you know, so I have a, my cousin is,

she's run like six or eight marathons. She's training for, I think, like a 50-mileer this year. And I talked to her about it. And she was like, oh, man, that's like, that's where it starts to get good. Like, she, she didn't understand what I was talking about. So I was like, okay, maybe we're just wired differently. But I'm curious, like, that, like, low level kind of just throbbing pain that kicks in after a couple hours. Like, how do you experience that? Because my experience of it was just like, wow, I'd give anything to be in a swimming pool with an ice tea right now.

Yeah. But that is where it gets good. Yeah. Because that's that point where you're forced to really confront yourself and what you're made of. And I love it. Like, I seek it out. I'm always searching for that.

Yeah. But I also think if you were actually. training properly, you can get to the point where you can be in that zone two state of exertion and you'll be able to go longer. And it isn't so uncomfortable that you feel like you have to quit. It can become an enjoyable thing. And for me, like, I look forward to it. Like, I train. It's like the highlight of my day. And I'm not trained, like I was training like a lunatic then. I'm not doing that now. And part of me misses it. Part of me doesn't. I feel like I've learned what I needed to learn from those experiences.

But there's something interesting that happens in your relationship with time. Like I would go out for these like 10-hour bike rides. And I'm in that like state of like at the edge of what you think you can maintain for that period of time in terms of exertion. But you work up towards it. Like Laird Hamilton doesn't drop in on an 80-foot wave like overnight. Like you build up to it very slowly. Sure.

And so over a period of, you know, two years getting. to the point where it like just inching towards that so that it feels normal and you're used to it. I got to the point where I felt like I could wake up every morning and run a marathon like before breakfast and then go about my day. Like you get so efficient at this one form of movement that you're not experiencing the level of discomfort

that someone like you is experiencing. It's a different thing. And time starts to bend so like, oh, it's, oh, I only have an eight ride today and then you're doing it and you're like oh I only have two hours more that's like watching a movie that's like no problem and then it's over and you're like wow I was out all day I couldn't do that immediately like you build up to it yeah yeah and then it just becomes like this thing that you do does your perception of time like slow down speed up like does that eight hours feel like an hour does it yeah the eight hours I mean it doesn't feel like an hour but it doesn't

feel like eight hours or it doesn't feel like if you went from nothing to eight hours would feel like an eternity, right? So it feels just like something that's very doable. I think to your point that too, you said not everybody obviously needs to be an ultra athlete, right? An endurance athlete. But I think people do you have to choose, you have to find something that's really fucking hard. Yeah, you have to put yourself in an uncomfortable situation where you're forced to meet yourself somewhere you're reluctant to go. And that becomes its own form of teacher. to you, right? And this is how we grow and evolve. If you don't have, if you're so reluctant to put yourself in difficult situations, then how are you ever going to, you know, evolve? And I think

at the same time, we can get stuck in ruts with this. So in the context of endurance sports, like, I could just keep doing these races and keep training for them. And again, then I would be running away from something. And also, you know, I would be celebrated like, oh, you run so far, But like it's not hard anymore. Like it's actually not that uncomfortable. It's like easy and it's kind of what I prefer to do. It's the new comfort. Yeah.

You know, it's really uncomfortable is like going to therapy and like talking about shit. You don't want to talk about it. Like that's way more uncomfortable than going out and doing that long run that you can go on social media and everyone will applaud you for. So you have to always be seeking out like once something that was uncomfortable is no longer uncomfortable, like what's the next horizon for your growth? growth. I get that. I got that way with with books and writing like it it felt like I mean, I'm sure I'll write another book at some point, but they the publishing world just kept putting like another fat carrot and by carrot I mean big check in front of me over and over again. And

it was like I could do this until the day I die, but at a certain point I'm just going to feel like I'm repeating myself. I'm just, you know, going through the motions. Like I'm not challenging myself creatively. I'm not pushing my career into somewhere that's uncomfortable and unconventional. And so then it wouldn't be exciting to me. It wouldn't be interesting. I wouldn't have to learn and grow and fuck up and get better at something and figure out how to put fuck in the title. Yeah. I mean, at some point, there's only so many book titles you can make with fuck. Is that still going on? Are people still milking that in terms of book titles? It's slowed down, but I still, they still show up here and there.

Amen. It's an imitation is the highest form of flattery. Unless you were to write, you know, like really push your writing, you know, into an uncomfortable place so that it becomes a very uncomfortable new challenge for you. I, I, yes. I hit a point where it would, I kind of realized either I do a novel, which I think nobody in the publishing world wanted me to do or come back to internet land. and try video and podcasting and some of this other stuff. I just felt like in kind of the typical self-help nonfiction lane, it's like I need to go live more to have more stuff to say.

Sure. Like you can't just sit there and keep playing the hits over and over again. Like nobody likes that. Yeah, I hear that. I'm writing a book this year and I haven't written a book since Finding Ultra, which was like 12 years ago. So, yeah. What's it about?

I promise myself I wouldn't say. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it, I get it. But it's very confronting. How's it going? It's a very different kind of book. Yeah. And it is based on lived experience over the last 12 years.

And yeah, it's not easy, man. No. It's really not easy. And the joke that I always tell is, is, I do think that I'm a pretty good writer, like in all of the skills that I have. I think, like, you know, it's one of the better ones. but it's the thing that I do the least. And the joke that I always tell is like, I created the podcast as like the ultimate distraction

from not having to write another book. And I'm now on year 11, you know, of running away. And now it's finally caught up to me. And I'm excited about it, but it's, I forgot how hard it is. And also my life is so much busier. And like when I wrote Finding Ultra, I had nothing going on.

And I worked on it, you know, all the time. And now, like, carving out the time. It's funny. I had a friend who's an author and she told me once, I mean, obviously I've never been pregnant,

but she explained this once and I thought it was like the perfect analogy for writing a book as she said that writing a book is like being pregnant. Like you, as soon as the last one comes out, you forget how difficult it was

because it's like nature's way of diluting you into doing it again. And then as soon as soon as you get pregnant again, you're like, oh my God, this is awful. Why did I do this? But then, you know, you fall in love with it. And it's just like this process of like both suffering and deep passionate emotion and love.

And then it comes out and you're exhausted and destroyed. And then you immediately forget how difficult it was. Yeah. And you want to do another one. Yeah. But I would also imagine like it's it's the most kind of fulfilling, like meaningful thing that you that you can do. I think in terms of like in terms of creative. of output that I've done in my career.

There's something just very special about the packaging of a book, the cultural significance, the longevity. I mean, books have been around for thousands of years, right? So it's, there is something very special about it. And there's a stain power to it that you don't get with other formats. Yeah, we're sitting here having a podcast and you have this book on the table that I wrote 12 years ago. I was like, you still want to talk about this? Yeah.

Like, you know, I've done a lot of things since then. But yeah, it speaks to the, you know, the sort of permanence of books that is different than every other form. Yeah. I mean, even movies like, okay, Fall Guy came out recently at bomb and then 18 days later you can stream it. Well, I mean, our relationship with media, everything is disposable. Yes. So I did a movie three years ago or it came out three years. ago or no, I did it three years ago. It came out a year and a half ago. And it was funny because

out of anything I've done in my career, I got more messages from people I went to high school and college with than anything else I've ever done. Like even when I was number one in New York Times, I was like on the Today Show, like all that stuff. Never heard from people. But the movie comes out and suddenly it's like, you know, Joe Schmo that I haven't talked to since 11th grade. It's like, you know, hitting me up on Facebook. So that was interesting, but then a month later it was like nothing happened. It was like it was completely completely. completely gone. But I want to get back to, well, the things that you've done since the book. You briefly mentioned at the end of the book that you quit your job. I guess this was a year

before the podcast started. You mentioned that it was like incredibly agonizing and terrifying. I mean, you had a day job. You had kids. Obviously, there's like financial instability, but you didn't go into any detail about it. And I thought that was interesting because that is another one of these turning points. It's a different turning point. It's different than hitting bottom with the alcoholism or the health transition. But it's another transition and it's another moment. It's kind of in a different direction. Yeah, I mean, that is a whole other kind of saga that I don't think there was room enough in this book to elaborate on in too much detail.

But as difficult as any kind of transformation that I've undergone. And, you know, it didn't happen quickly or overnight. And it wasn't a switch getting flipped of like, I'm quitting my job and I'm doing this new thing. I had slowly, like I'd left big corporate law life and then continued to practice law, like as a solo practitioner. And then I had two partners. And then I was solo again. And then I had one partner. But all the while kind of slowly receding into the background like Homer Simpson into the bushes.

And not really making any money. So it wasn't like this, you know, like this, you know, significant commercial enterprise. Like I was training and doing these races and losing interest in practicing law. And not for nothing. Like all my clients, I was practicing entertainment law at the time. And I loved working with independent filmmakers. And I felt it was the one thing in the law that I found fulfilling because I was working with artists and we were trying to build something. And I felt like I was part of the team in doing that.

The problem is they're all broke. And when they finally get money, I'm the last person they want to pay. And so, you know, I had so many unpaid invoices. And I had great experiences and I got to help make some really cool movies and work with really creative, interesting people in this shadow artist capacity, like wanting to always be the creative person. But being, you know, the person behind the scenes who has like the safe job. Ironically, I was the one who's getting paid the lease because I never got paid. So it wasn't like, oh, I'm quitting this job that's paying all my bills. I wasn't paying all the bills.

I was barely making ends meet. This book comes out. And it does fine. It doesn't make the New York Times bestseller list. I got what I thought was like an incredibly generous advance for somebody who'd never written a book and really didn't have a social profile at the time. but as you know, like those payments are meted out in small chunks over an incredibly long period of time. And I have four kids in a mortgage. And like it was this was not like sustaining.

Right. That's my point. When the book came out, that was in a ceremonious way like, okay, I'm not renewing my bar, my bar membership. So I can't practice law. I was like cutting that cord. But on a day to day basis, things didn't look all that different. And I think it speaks to the question around spirituality because I had this faith. in this trust. Like, I'm going to totally commit to just figuring out a new way of making a living

and supporting my family based upon these ideas that I've shared and a trust that somehow, like, there's a solution for this. And now it seemed a little more clear. There's, like, all these influencers and we see how they make money and all this sort of thing. Like in 2012, like, that wasn't so clear. There weren't other people doing this kind of thing. There was no blueprint or roadmap for how to, you know, get paid. And I just said, you know, well, the phone's going to ring and I'll get, you know, asked to do some speaking and one thing's going to lead to another. But the phone didn't really ring. Like I had a moment with this coming out and then that was that. And, and I was just sort of waiting passively for something to happen and feeling

like I didn't have agency and wasn't sure what to do to kind of move the ball forward. And it was very, very difficult for a long time, like seven years of real financial challenges. We came within 48 hours of losing our house. We had cars repossessed. I've told the story before, but I couldn't scrounge up the 80 bucks to pay waste management, so they took away our trash bins. And we had this shitty like Honda minivan that had like 200,000. thousand miles in it and we would put our garbage in the back and like drive to behind the grocery store to put them in the you know bins and our washer and dryer didn't work we were going to the laundromat and we you've been in my house like I live in a beautiful home right so we were like

either the richest poor people or the poorest rich people like we're like squatters we were like squatters in our own house you know and it was incredibly emasculating you know to be you know the the you know the dad and the husband and and feel like I wasn't able to solve this equation. And there were many times where I was like, this is ridiculous. And I would tell my wife, like, I can just make some calls and go back into law. I can probably get a job at a law firm. Like, it's too painful. It's not working.

You know, whatever plan we had, like, clearly this isn't what I'm supposed to be doing. And it was really my wife's conviction and her, you know, kind of very devoted, you know, spiritual perspective that, you know, we were on this path that we were meant to be on that kept me anchored in it. She was like, we've come too far. Like, she knew who I was before. She knew who I was then. She's like, this is who you're supposed to be. Like, I don't know how these questions get answered. But the only way they get answered is we keep moving forward.

in this direction and you cannot retreat. And I mean, who does that? Who does that? Like, she's incredible. And without that support and that strength, like, I don't know that I would have made it. And she was like, look, it's a house, it's whatever. Like, who cares?

You know, we're together. And our marriage was made stronger in a heightened circumstance that I think would have blown up most marriages. And we had to find a way to like have fun and turn it into like a game, you know, like they can take the car away, but they can't take our dignity away.

Like that's the choice that we have. And there was a moment when the repo guy came to the house. I had an orange Land Rover discovery that I loved. It was like this cool truck. I couldn't make that $230 payment on it or whatever for a couple months and the guy shows up to take it away. And Julie goes out into the driveway and she's like, hey, how are you?

Like she introduces herself. Hey, do you want a cup of tea? You want to come inside? Do you need to use the bathroom? Like, treated this man with kindness and generosity. And he was like shocked. You know, because he's just used to people throwing stuff at him and screaming at him. And he's like, what's happening?

She's like, he's like, you know, I'm here to take the car, right? She's like, oh, yeah, I know. It's great. Like, let me get you the keys and I'll get you down. Do you need anything else? And that was like a master class. in how to handle a circumstance like that with just extreme equanimity and neutrality.

And she would always say, and she still says, like neutrality is a superpower. Like these things are all happening and they're swirling around us and to your point around control, like we don't have control over them. We only have control how, in the way that we respond to them. And if you can meet these challenging moments with extreme neutrality, then,

then you can navigate them with dignity. And you're also in the frame of mind to make better decisions because you're not being impulsed emotionally by them that makes you reactive. And, you know, as we all know, like those generally lead to bad decisions. Damn, dude. So she just bring your wife in here. I was just going to say. We're done with you.

She has heard something to her. She's the better podcast guest. Trust me. She comes in. And she'll like do her own podcast and she'll just sit down and and solo it, you know, like for like an hour and a half and just drop. I'm like, how do you do that? Like I don't know how you do that.

She's amazing. And yeah, I'm very clear on how important and fundamental she's been to like this whole journey that I'm on. Left to my own devices. Like, no way. And I imagine that belief in you like extends extended before prior to that as well. like with well she would she would say like um she was always able to see like the better version of me not in the way that like oh you're in a relationship and they want to change you like she never wanted to she never tried to change me she was like i see you like i see you i see who

you really are and she would hold my hand and she was somebody who lived her life very differently than me. Like, I grew up in a, you know, achievement, educated, focused household where, you know, traditional ideas around success were what were important and, you know, using your intellectual capacities to make sense of the world. Like, this is how you operate. I grew up in Washington, D.C. It's like, this is, it's very, like, structured how you kind of move up in society. That's the way I was programmed. My wife, she is an artist and she's doing 10 things at once and she doesn't operate like that at all. And she has a different relationship with risk, all these things, which to me was fascinating. I'd never met anyone like that. And it was her like saying,

take my hand and come over here and let me show you, you know, my ways that gave me a sense of possibility and a different lens on which to, you know, kind of reflect on my life and the possibilities for what it might be. So when did the podcast start? Was that just something you threw it threw at the wall or was? Kind of, yeah. It wasn't. So I started it in late 2012, which is super early. Pretty early. Yeah. So what happened was the book came out in spring of 2012 and I did everything to push that out. And then in the wake of that, it's a longer story, but there was a creative vacuum. It's sort of like, well, what do I do now or how can I continue this conversation that I've begun with this book or where do I place my energy and my attention? And podcasting was the decision

I made. And yes, it was very early. I wasn't like the first, but it was definitely a time in which it wasn't cool to start a podcast and people weren't clamoring to start podcasts. But I'd fallen in love with the medium in like 2007, 2000, beginning 2007, 2008, when I started training for all of these events and I would have to spend all this time alone. And I needed something to distract me from the misery and then suffering and the pain. And I couldn't just listen to music. Yeah, I would listen to audio books, but I didn't have any money either. And that's when I discovered podcasts. and it was a time in which you had to go to iTunes on your desktop and you had to select the podcasts that you wanted to download,

download them, and then bounce them to like an iPod. There were no podcast apps and things like that that we have now. The technology hadn't been sorted out. And I discovered like a whole world, even though there weren't like certainly not as many podcasts as there are now, there was enough to amaze me. And I thought,

oh my God, I can't believe, like, you can listen to these people and they talk about, like, you know, these successful people and they tell you exactly what they did and how they live their life to get to this place. And this is free. Like, I was just astounded. And I didn't know one single other person that was listening to podcasts at the time other than myself. But I just knew I loved it.

And so I listened to probably thousands of hours. So I'd consumed a huge amount of podcast content before when I made that decision like, hey, this is cool. I know some interesting people and it doesn't look like there's a lot happening in the kind of health and well-being fitness space on podcast. So let's just give it a try. And my wife and I sat down

and we were living in these yurts in Kauai. It's a whole other long story. It's like, yeah. We thought we were losing our house and we got like this job opportunity on the north shore of Kauai with a guy who owned a big property there. And for some reason he thought that I could

help him figure out how to develop this property. But it was life saving because he's like, I'll pay you. And nobody else was offering to pay me anything. And I was broke. The hitch was, we had to move to Kauai and we had to live on this farm. And he had this like yurt village. So we were literally living in yurts and thinking our house is getting taken away from us. This is our new home. And I was starting to, and it was great. It was also hard. And I was starting to experience a little island fever. And I was like, I wrote this book and I was doing all these things to try to make something happen.

And now I'm like in the middle of the Pacific Ocean on, you know, this island where there isn't very much going on. And I felt that was the urgency around like trying to create something or take some action. And my boys who are musicians, they had microphones and some equipment. And I spent like a day trying to figure out like how you like get a podcast on iTunes. And you know, Pat Flynn, like the smart passive income guy, he had made like a series of videos where he's like, here's exactly how to do it. Here's the equipment you need. Step by step, like basically a to-do list.

And I watched all those videos. I took notes. And I was like, okay, I think I can figure this out. And I did it. And I was like, okay, let's record one. And I sat down with my wife and I sat down in a warehouse. Not a good place to host a podcast. A huge tin ceiling.

And like, yeah, like, let's do it here. You know. And we just recorded an episode. And at the end of it, I was like, that was pretty fun. Like, do you want to do it tomorrow? Like, that was it. It wasn't like, here's my plan. And we're going to launch this thing.

And it just organically evolved from a creative impulse into reality. And what was very unique and different about that time was the fact that there was no competition. Like, people were not starting. So I think our first episodes got. I don't know, like 750 downloads, 1,000 or something like that. And it kind of went like straight to number one in health. Wow. You know, so there was nothing here.

Yeah. And I was like, wow, that's cool. And that was enough encouragement or, you know, affirmation. Like, even though I knew the number, I was like, well, anybody who opens up iTunes and goes to, they'll see it, you know, there. And I was like, that was like a, I chose to believe that to be like this. signal from the universe like, okay, this is something you can keep, you can, you should be doing and investing in. And it just kind of grew from there. Your podcast though, Rich, not only are you like an OG in the game, but you are one of the first people to do a podcast like that. I think that was

bringing these crazy stories of people and getting, bringing those stories out and getting to see another side of them that up until podcasting really did hit scale, nobody knew about. And you've done that too in your own life. Not only do you get the guests to come up, but you're very vulnerable in your podcast. I think you probably had some practice with that, though, it sounds like with going through recovery as well. There was a section in the book you talk about where you went to a priest, you know, and you kind of bore your soul to this priest. What have you learned, I guess, from being so just kind of bearing your soul, I guess, to everybody, both in the podcast world, but probably in your own life too as well. What lessons have you gleaned from that? Yeah, I mean, I think, I think

the courage to be vulnerable is a very powerful thing that I try to model. But I think the word vulnerability has been sort of co-opted and commercialized. There's a lot of performative vulnerability these days. Hashtag vulnerability stuff. And vulnerability doesn't mean that you have to like vomit all your craziness onto everybody at every opportunity that you have. There's time and a place and a context. for sharing some of those harder things to share.

But I have found and I've learned through... I mean, listen, you go to an AA meeting, what is it? Somebody gets up in front of a group of people and starts just telling the craziest stuff you've ever heard about the most insane things that they have done and they're laughing while they're doing it. And they're not judged by the people who are in front of them. They're warmly received and embraced.

And what you get out of that is that those experiences no longer hold power over them. They're not things to be ashamed of. They're things that happen that you've worked through. And I think when you have healed those things in a certain way, when you share them with other people, it can come off as sometimes shocking. Like, oh, my God, like he just admitted that he did that thing. But I think beneath the surface, people are like, wow. Like he that thing doesn't own that person anymore and and I think that that is like holding your hand out to somebody and saying it's going to be okay like come over here. There's a path forward for you in which those things that that that that keep you stuck and alone and embarrassed and ashamed and make you small don't have to don't have to like hold that kind of power over you that there is a different way forward.

And I think when you're vulnerable with people, it gives people permission to be vulnerable themselves. And I think the specificity of our experiences, they're going to be different for everyone. Like the facts of my background and experience are going to be different from yours. But if I share openly and vulnerably, I know that within that there'll be something that you can connect to your own. experience. So it's an invitation in and it's a way of saying in the context of podcasting like I always try to you know model some vulnerability or open with vulnerability because I'm trying to emotionally connect with the guest right and I can't expect them to open up if I'm not willing to do it so you have to like you have to

like create that safe environment for that kind of thing to occur and when I wrote Finding Ultra I mean first of all like I'm like I can can't even believe I got a book deal. It's not like I didn't even win any races. Like this is supposed to be some sports memoir. Like I'm not an Olympic athlete. I didn't, you know, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't, and I wasn't 350 pounds. Like my weight loss thing wasn't that traumatic. The athletic accomplishments are fine, but there's plenty of people out there who have done far more impressive things. So what is it about this story and the way that I tell it? What is it about it that could be meaningful? for somebody. And I go, I knew, I understood from my experience in recovery that the extent to

which the book would be able to connect with people was going to be directly related to my courage to be open about things that I'm not proud of. And so, and that has been the case. And I think, especially in an environment now where everybody is so careful about what to say and what not to say and we're all kind of walking on eggshells and afraid of other people's opinions. I mean, you wrote a whole book about it. You know, it's like, and I would consider myself who's probably still more too captured by other people's opinions than I would like to be. Yeah.

But in sharing our vulnerable moments, we can find connection. And it brings us closer to people in a world that I think is far too divided and looking for reasons to be separated. Last set of questions. What do you give too many fucks about? What do you give not enough fucks about? And what do you give just right? Interesting.

I definitely still give too many fucks about other people's opinions. Interesting. Yeah. And this is like, this is something I'm super committed to like overcoming. And could probably be cured for the most part. I just restrained my social media use. Is it the comment section specifically or is it like industry peers or is it press and media? Like what is it?

Uh, I mean, it's all of it. All of the above. Like, why do I care? You know what I mean? I've been doing this a long time. Like, I know who I am. I know, you know, I know what my strengths and my weaknesses are and what I'm doing is not for everybody.

And the bigger that you get, then of course you're going to have all these people that don't like it. And I've gotten a lot better. Yeah. I'm just not as liberated from it as I would like to be. And I recently had this conversation with Michael Jervais because he wrote this book, you know, he wrote a book on the same subject. And he calls it FOPO, like fear of other people's opinions and the way that that becomes

this impediment to mastery. So I would like to be more liberated. Maybe you can be my guru. I'll get you to a point where you can run more than 10 miles and enjoy it. There we go. If you can get me to give less bucks about what other people. What was the other one? What do I, what do I, what do I, what do I, what do you give to me? What do you give too few fucks about? Well, this is something I'm working on that also, um, I've gotten better at.

And it's not that I give too few fucks about about it, but I don't prioritize it enough, which is investing in the intimacy of my friendships, you know, I'm 57 now. And, and, And I've been a workaholic and a lot of that was fueled by some PTSD from having my trash cans taken away and like not wanting to go back to that place. But now everything's cool and I can kind of breathe. But I still like I'm like, you know, that thing where it's all it's all going to get taken away. Like I have to maintain that level of intensity. And that comes at the cost of spending time with people I care about or investing in friendships and relationships. and saying yes to experiences

because I have to work or I have to do this thing or you don't understand how busy I am. So at what point am I allowed to like enjoy my success and relax a little bit and reconnect with the people that I care about as opposed to putting blinders on and just being in this like marathon race running forward

like to what end? You know? Like where am I? going exactly can relate to that I was going to say it's not familiar mark yeah right yeah uh and then what what have you what do you feel like you've nailed like the perfect allotment of fucks given i think i'm pretty good at life man you know like i think i am like i have an amazing wife and i've been in you know that i've been with for 25 years we have a we have a healthy relationship i mean we have issues just like you're going to be in an intimate partnership with

someone for a long time, you're going to have stuff, right? But we've gone through a lot together and not only have we stayed connected, like we've grown alongside each other and we've been each other's champions. We have four amazing kids, all of whom are like doing great and we're proud of and who are all pursuing their own dreams with our support. And they like coming home and hanging out with us. Like they look, you know, it's like they want it, not in a weird way, in like just the right amount of way where like we enjoy their company and they, they enjoy being around us, which is really cool.

That's, that's a big way. So I feel like that's, you know, of all things, like that's something I'm super proud of. And then I get to like do this thing that I love that I look forward to doing and I get excited about every single day when I wake up and then I get to share it with people. who also value it. And then I am able to pay my bills doing it. And I get to choose cool experiences that I want to go.

Like, I feel like I have just the right amount of fucks that I'm giving about the whole macro pie and making it all work. Yeah. And that doesn't mean on a day-to-day basis. It doesn't get out of balance and out of whack. And yes, I can be a workaholic. And I, you know, I have plenty of areas that I need to address. and where I can improve.

But overall, like, I just, I can't even believe that I have the life I have, and I'm super grateful. And I'm proud of myself. But I'm also, again, like I said at the outset, like aware that this was not me, you know. Amazing. Thank you, Rich. Yeah, thanks. This is super fun.