Someone Knows Something - S1 Episode 11: Terminus

Episode Date: May 12, 2016

In the season finale of SKS, David Ridgen wraps up loose ends, looks into ways to continue the investigation into Adrien's disappearance, and speaks with the McNaughton family about their experience of reopening the case. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season1/someone-knows-something-season-1-adrien-mcnaughton-transcripts-listen-1.3846202

Help turn off hesitation, turn off doubt, turn off fears. With your support, the YMCA of Greater Toronto helps people turn off whatever's holding them back so they can let their potential shine. Help turn on confidence and connections and possibilities. From youth shelters to job training, mental health counseling and beyond, the YMCA offers hundreds of programs that empower people to shine their brightest. See our charity's impact at ymcagta.org slash charity. This is a CBC Podcast.

The following program contains mature subject matter. You're listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Radio. In 1972, five-year-old Adrian McNaughton vanished while on a fishing trip in eastern Ontario. Documentarian David Ridgen goes back to the small town he grew up in, searching for answers. You know, it's a strange thing to have your family story out there. But it dawned on me that if you talk to almost any family, you'd discover that they had extraordinary events. Everybody's story you could make into a movie. In everything we do, we make stories because it helps the world to make sense.

And piecing together the story of Adrian McNaughton's disappearance is no different. That's what I figured. They had a winter coat on because of the mosquitoes, and I figured the next day in the heat, he would have taken it off. But Murray, I don't remember that it was a winter coat. Well, it was a heavy coat. I don't remember that it was a winter coat.

It was a heavy coat. He didn't wear it in the wintertime. I think someone has taken him. And I don't know if I'm saying that I hope that that's what has happened, or I really think that's what has happened. We can trick ourselves into believing anything, filling gaps where there's nothing. Well, a lot of people blamed Murray for it.

Yeah, I remember one was Murray had just got out of jail and he'd murdered him. Yeah, there was all kinds of accusations made. There was really ridiculous things like somebody found him nailed to the bottom of a boat. There was crap like that. Some girl accused me directly, said, oh, she knew that I did it. I won't be accused of doing something I didn't do. The one theory that I think is most plausible to me is he was trotting along the roadway back to the camper or something

and another fishing party or something came around the corner, and a car ran over him. Adrian's eldest brother, Lee. Well, they want resolution. We don't do well with the unknown. And with that, we want resolution, we want certainty, we want resolution, we want certainty, we want clarity. But unfortunately, that is not this life we have.

And so I think all those people who had rumors and theories, well, of course that's what it is. It's a conclusion for them. It's an end. We don't have to live in this mystery of not knowing. Like I still, every once in a while, sometime during the summer, if I'm in the right place, I like to lie out in the lawn at night and look up into the stars and see this vast expanse of interstellar space and there's this sense of I'm just so little to this but in a weird way I'm comforted

by this mass of unknowing out there you know there I weirdly I weirdly am comforted by it. And in finding new information to try to fill the void of not knowing, we at Someone Knows Something shaped our own story out of the mystery of Adrian's disappearance.

I think our very first conversation I had with you, I worried what was your take going to be? What were you going to, you know, did you have conclusions that you were planning on? But I think you let the story tell itself in that way. I think the only disappointment I've had listening to it is not listening to it as much as, is it actually having an impact? Is it actually, you know, the title is Someone Knows Something, but what if no one knows anything? Throughout our episodes in this series, we've received dozens and dozens of messages from listeners who said they knew something.

From taking part in the search for Adrian McNaughton or knowing someone who had, to having their own theories as to what happened. We started with what was known in 1972. One man, Doug Irwin, remembered two sets of footprints being found that led searchers nowhere. Looked like a little boy's running shoe and a man's moccasin, because it was flat and you could just see where the ball of the foot hit, the heel, the ball of the foot, and the toes.

I remember those tracks well. Another person's account of the search comes from Adrian's cousin, Brad Lee, a tall, skinny 15-year-old at the time who was lowered into a swamp with ropes around his body in case he got stuck. You know, it was like probably the closest thing to quicksand I'd ever been in.

It was still kind of not thick. You could move around, but it wouldn't hold your weight. You sunk right to the bottom. They tied like two ropes on me. I just used that stick. They'd tell me, poke here, over here, poke over there, and I'll walk this way. There's nothing in the one eye, sir, just, you know. Poking with a stick to feel for a human body.

And I guess if he would have been in there, there would have been like an article of clothing and he would have saw something, you know. And I remember getting out of there and just going in the lake and getting all that stuff off me, you know. And now, well over 40 years later, even the original searchers,

such as former Ministry of Natural Resources employee Hugh Allure, feel they know something that might help. It was a wild cover day. Like, I know that every speck of the ground was saw by me. And I think he was taken. And my theory is that if he was taken by a bear, something would have been found, like his cap. He's supposed to have had a cap. I don't was taken. And my theory is that if he was taken by a bear, something would have been found, like his cap. He's supposed to have had a cap.

I don't hear that in any of those episodes. But it doesn't matter. A kid that age would have found his running shoes and all that stuff. And as we've been continuing our investigation, we've also been tracking down any of the viable leads and tips we've received in the wake of those episodes. A woman in Nanaimo, B.C. named Sylvia wrote to say after the sketches were released that she had seen and spoken to an Adrian look-alike in a London drugstore. In a later email, Sylvia said she didn't live in Nanaimo and hadn't been back to the drugstore.

And what about the people of Clyde Forks? The minister on the list who was there in 1972? Gail Campbell, whose house for sale I walked into, or Buddy Close, the fellow that the man in the truck Doug Buecher suggested I speak to. I'm in the Perth Ontario parking lot of Tim Hortons and I'm going to call some of these folks that used to live up in Clyde Forks. So the first person I'm going to call is Gail Campbell. Please leave your message. Hi, this message is for Gail Campbell.

My name's David Ridgen. I work for CBC Television and Radio in Toronto. Nan Barker, the woman who was listed as the minister of Clyde Forks United Church in 1972, has passed away. But the minister who replaced her in 1973, Paul Currie, is still alive, and I managed to reach him on the phone. At the time, Currie was an itinerant minister serving several small community churches. I was there from May till August, serving the church there. So do you recall anything that could be helpful

with regards to Adrian, five-year-old boy, coming to Clyde Forks back in June 1972? I don't remember children at all. What I do remember is a few of the homes across from the church had dirt floors and no electricity. Wonderful people, but no children. And it wasn't because it was totally summer school vacation. I was there in May and June.

Just no recollection of kids. Either they were all hidden away, or they just didn't exist. Hidden away. That's interesting. Well, I say that because when I went to visit in people's homes and on the farms in the area too, they were just very dark places where nobody really seemed to go out much. You think it's possible then that somebody could have raised a child there unknown to you or to others?

Oh, yeah. Definitely. Definitely, because of the, just things were hidden. And Gail Campbell calls me back. Do you remember anybody in 72, any young boy or any new kid coming into the community? No. No, there'd be nobody. We didn't know. We knew everybody lived there. And do you think it would have been possible for anybody in Clyde Forks or the area, maybe Flower Station even, to keep a child without letting anybody else know?

Oh, no. No, no. Everybody would be suspicious and wonder. And finally, Buddy Close. Were there many kids up in Clyde Forks at your time? There was quite a few. Yeah. But they all belonged to people like you knew. Yes that's right. You knew that they had had the babies and things like that. Yeah. There was never any kind of a suspicious, where did that kid come from suddenly? No, not really. So here's a picture, here's a picture of Adrian as a young boy. I'll show it to you first, buddy.

You want to take that and have a look? I never take them. I don't remember anything about that little boy. He's a cute little boy. I don't know. I could print out this little picture of him as a little boy and mail it to you. And any time you come across someone who's from the Forks, older, show it to them,

do you remember this little boy? That would help. Okay. Ontario Vital Statistics confirms that there were not a lot of children living in Clyde Forks in the early 70s. For privacy reasons, they say they can't tell us the exact number born each year between 1965 and 1975 because fewer than five babies were born overall. Since the number is so small, their thinking is that if they told us, we could guess the names of the people and therefore

invade their privacy. Despite Minister Curry's recollections of dirt floors and secrecy, I'm pretty sure Adrian didn't end up there. John Gervais' revelation about seeing a black and white 56 Dodge parked at Holmes Lake close to the time Adrian disappeared brought back a few tips. We'd contacted Chrysler and asked for a list of similar cars in Canada and received back a number of between 14,000 and almost 28,000 such cars. We even checked the serial number of the car whose picture we used for our podcast since the black and white combination we learned from Chrysler was a custom job and there were likely not many like it then and certainly not now. But the serial number revealed nothing, and the current owner of that car is not the owner who had it in 1972. We've been posting the car picture on various forums throughout the country,

and a listener had done the same on a local forum. That listener's information led us here. Hello. Your dad here? Oh, hi. What's going on? Are you Dwayne? Possibly. It's okay. My name's David. I work for CBC Radio. Yes, sir. And I got a story to tell you. Um, here's my card for swell. So I'm working on a case that involves an old 1956 Dodge car. And I saw online looking in this area on a board that you posted that your grandpa used to own one years ago, a black 56, uh, possibly. Yeah. Now do you remember seeing it? No, that was way before I was born. Okay.

Yeah. And you just knew of it? I was talking to my dad about it. Is he still alive, your grandfather? No, my grandfather's not. Do you know the case I'm talking about? No. Oh, okay.

So I'm working on a radio podcast. Oh, not the MacDonald? Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so... Come on in, man. Sorry to interrupt at supper time. I just came in from Toronto here, so... No worries.

Yeah. I walk into Dwayne's semi-detached house to see his kids eating supper. Dwayne himself looks like he's still in his work clothes. It's a busy time of night, which is why I chose this time. But still, he's really eager to help, and we've never met before. So what happened? I don't know if you listen to the thing. My wife was glued to your... Oh, really? Oh, okay, that's cool.

That's right. So my thinking is who owned the black and white car? Cause they may have seen someone else there or seen something or have some key to the case, you know? Like you just check everything. So I'm trying to think back in a bit. I'm a car guy. My grandfather, I can put in your,

tell you every car they've ever had. That's just my thing. Yeah, yeah. He bought his first new car in 69, so it would have been a Ford. So he wouldn't have had a 56 back in about 72. Oh, okay. And then he got rid of it. Yeah, yeah.

Years and years before. Okay, so the car, the black car Dodge that he had, he got rid of before 17. Oh, hell yeah. Dwayne disappears downstairs with his kids still cheerily eating supper in front of me. He returns with a car book. Yeah. Okay, that's fine. Oh, you got a car book.

This is just one that I could find quick. So that was, what, 56? Yep. No, but that's okay. Then Dwayne's on the phone to his dad, verifying what he's told me about his grandpa's car, and finding out something else. Hey, question for you. Grandpa's 56 Dodge, right? Black and white?

Straight black, okay. Anybody else in town have anything like that, A black 56 Dodge that you would know of? So, you said you knew that there was another one in town blue and white, but that's... Blue and white, eh? Wonder who owned that one? He's dead now, Leonard. Yeah, who was his son? That's... Dwayne finishes up, giving me the blue and white Dodge owner's phone number. And I'm off again, and we'll look into it down the road. Okay, take care guys. Nice night.

We expect to continue getting tips like this as time goes forward and new waves of listeners discover this story. We'll look into anything we think is viable. Back to Lee McNaughton. So what did you think of the dive episode? Well, it was a difficult thing. But these divers, it's the needle in a haystack sort of thing. A haystack that's underwater with poor visibility.

Really cold, you know. So you're putting a lot in this basket, which may come to fruition and show something, or it may not. The process of finding information in an investigation can help you to focus the narrative of what might have happened. But sometimes the force of that trajectory can take on a life of its own. Hence the dogs, the dive, the basket. And now, the next step.

Ontario Provincial Police. If you are calling from a rotary phone, please remain on the line and your call will be answered. Renfro PP, Sanders speaking. Oh, hi. Can I speak to Commander Colin Slight, please? Inspector Slight speaking. Ah, Inspector Slight. It's David Ridgen calling from Toronto CBC Radio. I've been working on the Adrian McNaughton case with CBC here. Oh, yes. Okay. Actually, I just downloaded your podcasts on the weekend. I haven't listened to them yet, but I've downloaded them. I think a couple of the crime unit members have been listening or have listened to some of it anyway. Okay, well, that's great. And is it possible

that after you listen to the episodes that we could have a conversation about it on the record? I'd be interested to hear the OPP's opinion, or at least your opinion, on what you think of what we've found so far. I'd have to check and see, get authorization from, because it's not my case. If I have the approval, I don't have a problem speaking with you, that's for sure. If the Ontario Provincial Police, or OPP as they are known, are listening to the series, they'll know what we found. Adrian's case is allegedly the only unsolved cold case in Renfrew County, and our evidence is solid.

But will they help? Help turn off hesitation. Turn off doubt. Turn off fears. With your support, the YMCA of Greater Toronto helps people turn off whatever's holding them back so they can let their potential shine. Help turn on confidence and connections and possibilities. From youth shelters to job training, mental health counseling and beyond, the YMCA offers hundreds of programs that empower people to shine their brightest. See our charity's impact at ymcagta.org slash charity.

Oh, that coffee smells good. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing? That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee. Feeling distracted? You're not alone.

Many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with mortgage payments on their minds. If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank. The earlier they understand your situation, the more options and relief measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada.

Hello! Dad's just in the backyard. I'll a new idea brought to us by one of our listeners. Anonymous, voluntary DNA matching. Last time I was here, you told me that the police took your DNA, right? Yep. Well, it came from when they were doing the age-enhanced drawing, wasn't it? Last time I was here you told me that the police took your DNA, right? Yep. Well, it came from when they were doing the full age-enhanced drawing, wasn't it? So they did the other sketch, the Renfrew Detachment did that sketch that we redid in 2009, and then they got your DNA and Murray's, and how did they do it?

Uh, mouse. A cheek swab? I think so. I don't remember getting the finger cut off or anything. So somebody sent a tip in to us, not a tip, an idea, and we thought it was a good one. And it has to do with DNA. So there is a company in the States called 23andMe. And what 23andMe does is they take in DNA and then they put that in their database.

So what happens then is if somebody out there thinks they're somehow been missing or abducted or something in a similar situation as Adrian, they'll go and say, here's my DNA. And so then they match any DNA that comes, they try to match it. So it's an opportunity to just store your DNA there. And if someday somebody walks in and says,

I've got DNA and it might match. So it's something, it's a positive step towards the direction of perhaps Adrian's still out there. So if you guys are interested in that. I think it's a great idea to be honest. Any chance of finding out? What do you think Murray? Here.

Oh yeah. It just increases the possibilities again. The on you think, Murray? Oh, yeah. It just increases the possibilities again. The onus is on the other party, the potentially living Adrian, to come forward and say to 23andMe, I don't know who I am, you know?

Just his gut feeling that there's something different. And then I ask for the McNaughton's opinion on the podcast experience they've had so far. What's your sort of summative ideas that you've had through the process here? I'd say you're doing a wonderful job. That's my opinion.

And keep up the good work. Chantal, who's done the most in-field work with me, seems hesitant to speak, and I notice that she's tearing up a bit. I've been kind of thinking about this coming because as last week's episode said that Tuesday was going to be the finale of this season and probably since the beginning I've been thinking I can't wait for this to be over but now when it's actually happening, I do have some mixed emotions. I'm not upset that the podcast is ending,

but I was thinking, so then what happens? Is all the investigating going to stop? Is the momentum now going to stop? Is it going to be over again? I think they've said it all. I think they've said it all, David. Really. I've had dreams and things from it all, you know. And not always good,

but no, I think they've pretty well said it all, and I think you've done a good job, David. And I am quite sure it's not for anything for show. You know, yeah. It's a good time to introduce the idea of going to the police. So the next thing is, I have made a formal request to the OPP in Renfrew to discuss the case and talk about what we've come up with. Say the black and white car, the dogs, what's happened up there, say the new sketches. We want to talk to the OPP in Renfrew and say, now what?

What do you want to do with this? What do you think of what we've come up with? And hope that they can carry the ball. You know, like I think Colin Slight is the inspector's name and he had to get permission to give me an interview. So any minute now, actually, I'm expecting an email from the OPP saying we're going to do this discussion with you or we're not. Wouldn't you think that we should have some say? Well, I'm willing to go with you.

That would be cool. I'd go. You could all come. OK. Do you want to just come with me to Renfrew and? Oh, I think I should. It would help us all. OK.

Is it OK if I take Murray in my car? All right, well, we'll see you later, Barb and Curtis. OK, we'll see you later. Oh, Curtis. Okay, we'll see you later. Oh yeah, so where is the one I'm going to? Is it just on Main Street? Yeah, do you know where the town hall is? Yeah. That's the same spot.

Okay. Okay, so I'll see you at the courthouse run through. Yeah. Okay. Hall Street. Main Street, O'Brien Road. I think they have parking for the police station from this street. Oh, okay. Are we all ready? Okay, let's go.

Are you going to call them? Yeah, I'll give them a call. We sit at a sun-slivered picnic table about 30 feet from the entrance to what looks like a large 70s-era brown brick building. A fading yellow OPP sign watches over us. You guys hear that? Ontario Provincial Police.

If you're calling from a rotary phone, please remain on the line and your call will be answered. One moment moment please. Renfield BP, Sanders speaking. Oh hi, can I speak to Inspector Slight please? He's in a meeting at the moment, could I take a message or have him return your call? Yeah, just tell him David Ridgen from CBC called and we're outside here. We're just outside the police station if he wants to give me a call. And you're outside the Raglan Street detachment?

Yep, I'm sitting right outside here with the family of Adrian McNaughton, and that's the case I wanted to talk to him about. Okay, all right, I'll let him know. Great, thanks. Thank you, bye-bye. Bye. Mrs. Allen, you might be here for a while. I suspect this lad will come out rather than call me but you never know

hello hello David yeah inspector slight speaking how are you today hey inspector slight how are you I'm fine I'm just Sleight. How are you? I'm fine. I'm just going to give you a heads up there that I'm not going to be in a position to speak to the podcast issues. Simply because I'm Detachment Commander for the area, this case is being managed by Major Case Management by CIV. Okay. Inspector Sleight is saying that the case is being held by the criminal investigation branch of the OPP, CIB, headquartered in Orillia, Ontario, almost 300 kilometres away. Inspector Sleight had told me that he was going to speak to the current investigator on the McNaughton case.

Okay. So the detective that you were saying you were going to speak to today didn't come? No, I did speak to him, and he's just not available to speak to today. But from my perspective, I'm not in a position to add anything to it because it's not my file. Okay, so it's CIB's file? I'm here with Mr. McNaughton and Chantel. I'm just trying to relay it to them so they understand. Because it's a major case file, it's managed by CIB,

and they're the ones that have the skill set and the resources to put through the investigation, and so that's why they have the carriage of it. I see. So when can we expect some kind of response, do you think, Mr. Slate? I have no plan to give you a response, you know. It's not my intent to do that. The file is open and you know, they'll follow up leads that are brought to their attention. That's the best that I can offer to you. Okay, so bringing leads to attention, I have to send the podcast to Aurelia then?

Is that what you suggest? Well, it's Detective Inspector Rob Hagerman has carriage of the case. Okay, so if I discuss or send to rob.hagerman at opp.ca, the podcast, then that might get things going, you think? Well, that would put you in touch with him. Okay. He'd be the one that would be able to talk to you because I don't have the information

that has the case managers, their their file to address in our organization the detachment does not do any media relations with uh with respect to CIB cases they they manage their own media release but sorry didn't you tell me that you would be able to talk to me if you got permission didn't that isn't that what I don't have I don't have that permission. I see. I see. Okay. Alright, thanks for calling. And we'll certainly be back in touch. Yeah.

Thanks a lot. Bye. Okay. Well. Wasted effort. It's typical of the conundrum of dealing with bureaucratic police, and nobody wants to commit to anything until the boss says it's okay. And to some extent it's understandable,

but discouraging is one word. Well, my thoughts are too, what's the big deal? It's a 43-year-old case, but we're trying. Let's keep trying. We're not here to criticize anybody or how things were done or... We're not here to make anyone look bad either, but I mean... Okay, well, I guess we just have to hope that

the officer he named, when he listens to the podcast, he sees his way fit to respond to the family. We'll get an answer. We'll get an answer eventually, we will. Okay, see you Chantal. There's significant evidence here, and the police should pursue it. And there's also something significant on the dive front to add to everything else. So the results of the dive were no surprise. We were prepared at that point to

just let it go and actually the divers contacted us. They weren't prepared to let it go. A week after the dive we conducted for human remains at Holmes Lake, the dive where we found only a sock that almost for sure did not belong to Adrian McNaughton, Kim Cooper went back to the datum point with fellow handler Pauline and their dogs Breeze, Grief and Quinn. I was going to ask Kim and the divers to consider another run at it, but before I could ask, the divers asked Kim to go back. So they asked if we could go check it one more time, and if the dogs again showed an interest in that area,

then they would make plans to return and dive perhaps in a different manner. So we went, went back up to the lake and run three of the dogs, the three dogs from the Ottawa team. And sure enough we got body language changes, we got interest on the shore, and we pretty much feel that the wind and the direction of travel of the odour all are coming back to the same part of the lake that we dove the first time. So we had Grief, Quinn and Breeze, all three ran and again all the same spots. All three dogs, all the same spots. So if we take our wind direction and we draw lines back out that's where we did the dive two weeks ago. By Kim's account, the wind was coming from a different direction than in December, but all three dogs, one at a time,

alerted very distinctly once again to a scent of human decomposition in an area that only slightly widens the original dive site. As a result, Mike Grebler and the others are planning a second dive, and it's with this in mind that I approached this finale of sorts to the first season of Someone Knows Something. If there are more discoveries, we'll be creating additional episodes. I join Mike Grebler and Kim Cooper in believing that there are likely human remains in Holmes Lake. It's just a matter of finding and then identifying them. And while police involvement is important going forward,

we have a responsibility, the general we, all of us, to not only try to help find the truth in these cases and push for those solutions, if someone knows something, but also in the process to try to solve ourselves. I haven't liked this process. It's not easy, it's not comfortable, but I'm glad you've done it. Honestly, I hope that something will come of it. But if nothing comes of it, hopefully a parent will hold their child closer, care for each other more, and all of us realize that each of our lives are quite extraordinary.

Some tragic, some beyond belief. But it is that life that we live. You've been listening to the Season 1 final episode of Someone Knows Something. Visit cbc.ca slash sks to see an interactive piece about what we learned this season from David Ridgen. We're also proud to announce that we'll be back with a new season and a new case in the coming months. Subscribe in iTunes or your favorite podcast app to make sure you don't miss it. We want to thank you, the listener, who found us, spread the word, and joined us in this journey. We'd also like to thank the entire team that helped make this series happen.

Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The show is also produced by Ashley Walters and Sandra Bartlett, and executive producer Arif Noorani. The director of CBC Radio new programs and original podcasts is Leslie Merklinger. The director of CBC Radio Digital is Jeff Ulster, and executive producer is Paul Gorbold. SKS Digital producers are Craig Dessen and Chris Oak. Additional thanks to Philip Leung, Olsi Surakina, Ben Shannon, Steph Kampf, A.C. Rowe, and the CBC Reference Librarians. Our theme song is by Bob Wiseman, with vocals by Mary Margaret O'Hara and Jess Reimer.

I'm Talia Schlanger. Thanks for listening, and stay tuned for our next season in the coming months. I will never stop my love I will never sleep Something here is precious, a memory I keep I will never stop my love, I will never sleep All I want's an answer for this mystery I leave Maybe one day we will all look out on the sun And know a light that shines the truth on our lives On her lawn I'm not a fool Ooh, ooh, ooh Ooh, ooh, ooh For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.