Someone Knows Something - S1 Episode 8: Clyde Forks

Episode Date: April 17, 2016

Two psychics pointed to the remote town of Clyde Forks in their readings of Adrien McNaughton's fate and whereabouts. Could the missing boy have grown up in a secluded town an hour's drive from his family home? For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season1/someone-knows-something-season-1-adrien-mcnaughton-transcripts-listen-1.3846202

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The following program contains mature subject matter. You're listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Radio. In 1972, five-year-old Adrian McNaughton vanished while on a fishing trip in eastern Ontario. Documentarian David Ridgen goes back to the small town he grew up in, searching for answers. The ice has started melting on Holmes Lake in eastern Ontario. It's still 18 inches thick, but only about 12 of that is solid. The rest is punky and crystallized and shows your footsteps. It was a clear late March morning when I last checked it, with a nearly full moon still hanging on in the sky. And under that moon, across the lake, the rocky shoreline still covered in snow, where a few months ago four cadaver dogs had made intriguing indications.

And I wondered if there was some way I could somehow will it to all melt faster. I haven't looked at this in years. There are envelopes in here with letters from people. What else do you have in there, Chantelle? This is another letter, but this is from Psychic Investigation International, so they've got proper letterhead and everything here. Chantelle McNaughton is pulling letters from their old archival satchel. Letters that her family received from psychics in the months and years following her brother Adrian's disappearance. It almost looks like the album cover of, was it Prism? Or Pink Floyd.

Anyway, it's a pyramid with an eye in it and someone's hand with rays coming off of it. Dear Sir, BT, please forgive us for not responding to your case sooner. We have been overcome with an enormous amount of work, as you can imagine. All of our impressions are not necessarily correct. Please keep this in mind when reading the following. Impressions. BT. I feel the boy is still alive, possibly taken by a couple that want a child very bad. He is happy and possibly loved and cared for like his own parents. And then the other initials are F. And then the initials SM. By our standards, the child is dead. My first impression is the child was abducted, but not by a human being.

Take that for what it is worth. Two other people feel that the boy is dead by drowning. This knowledge is correlated with our recorded impressions. From these facts, we can then establish an approximate accuracy. Since this is as far as we can go at this point, we are closing your case. If you wish for us to... I don't remember anything about that at all. I don't even remember this letter. I don't remember anything either. Yeah, I don't remember that. I don't know if you've figured this out from this family, but most of us don't like to attract attention to ourselves. So this is very difficult in itself.

Kind of glad it's on radio. Quite glad it's on radio. Because people have asked, how could you not be searching day and night and trying to find answers? And yes, we want answers, but we don't really want the attention. If we could do it while we hid in the background somewhere,

that'd be great. That is the way we are. Funny, eh? Aside from what Holmes Lake may or more likely may not reveal when it finally thaws, there are other theories as to where Adrian might be. And there's one theory in particular by psychics that Murray remembers well. Murray, I remember you telling me about Clyde Forks or Clyde's Fork. What is it called? Clyde Forks. There was a couple of people that got to read the future that said that he was in Clyde Fork's area. Now, when they say he was in the area, did they talk to each other before coming to that conclusion?

Or was that something they both came up with independently? Independent, yeah. Okay. Because they don't think they even knew each other as far as I knew. One lady came from England. She told the whole story just about the way it was at Holmes Lake. She told the story that Adrian had walked away and there was a guy in there looking for herbs or roots or something and they picked him up and carried him out of the bush and they figured that's why the search dog just went so far and lost the scent. And she said she saw the site where he was. It was down in a low

little low spot like in the valley where they were living and there was two dark-haired, a couple of dark-haired boys playing and one fair-haired boy and that was somewhere around Clyde Forks. There was three different ones. There was one fellow that came in and he came from way down below Ottawa and he could take a map and with this little equipment that he used he could tell you exactly where water was without even going to the place. He tried that with Adrian, and he said it kept going to Clyde Forks.

And whether it's true or not, we don't know. And there was another lady sent us a letter, and she had also mentioned the same thing. It makes you kind of believe that maybe he did go to Clyde Forks. But your recollection is that two psychics that didn't know each other both said Adrian must have gone to Clyde Forks. Yeah. And you went, tell me what happened, tell me what you did. Did you go there and did you talk to people when you were there?

I went there. No, I didn't have the gut to go around and talk to everybody and ask them about it. I'm thinking I might go and do it just to entertain the idea that maybe there's something to something. Who knows? Who knows? Why not? Yeah. Do you think it's nutty of me to go do that? Not at all. What do you think, Murray? Not if you're going to check up every lead.

That'd be wonderful. Check up, I'd say. No, my mom and dad are not... They don't believe in psychics themselves. They're actually quite against it because of their face. But in moments like that, you grasp at any straw you can and standing here in the parking lot of shooters bar in calabogie again it's saturday at the end of march it's actually the easter weekend We're talking about a shooter's bar in Calabogie again.

It's Saturday at the end of March. It's actually the Easter weekend. And just waiting here for Chantelle MacNaughton to arrive. We're gonna go to Clyde Forks, where the two psychics said that Adrian MacNaughton may have gone on June 12, 1972, or around that date when he disappeared from up on Holmes Lake. See what happens.

We got the sketches, we got them made into posters, and Chantelle should be here soon to help us put them up. Hey Chantal. So we might as well just back up and we'll leave your car here. I don't know what it is about this place. We always get awesome weather up here. It is gorgeous. Thanks for doing this. I thought we would just walk through, if there is a little town of Clyde Forks, and if there's anyone around, I'll just talk

to them. And we have the posters, I want to show you them here and you can pick which one you think we should forefront but we sort through the box of age progressed sketches that we've made of Adrian and decide on the balding version of him with no beard and the one where he wears glasses and a beard as the best representatives to show anyone we might meet in Clyde Forks. There's the other sort of goatee guy. Yeah, so I think we probably should take this one and use that one. Sure. Okay, well let's go. I've asked permission. We'll leave your car here.

Okay. And I'll drive. Okay. Now, I'm not exactly certain myself where Clyde Forks is, which will make a great pair out of this here. But I'm pretty sure it's that way. And then I think the next road we turn on is called Campbell's Campbell road or something. And very uncomfortable.

You're uncomfortable. Very. Oh yeah. Why so? I don't like this at all. Just the attention alone is extremely outside our comfort zone. But with it being so personal, it's,

you know, just takes it to a whole other level. Have you had some interactions with people in town? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And in a good way? Well, yeah. People just curious and wondering,

is that you? Is that your family? I was at the dentist last week, and the hygienist, and I wasn't dentist last week and the hygienist and I wasn't even in to see the hygienist she came out when I was leaving and asked me about it which is fine I mean that doesn't I guess overly bother me

sort of but well I mean it's certainly spreading you know the podcast the story it's certainly spreading, you know, the podcast, the story. It's definitely reaching far and wide. It's reaching further than even I thought it would. My sister-in-law had a point just about how we're all dealing with it or not dealing with it or struggling with it, I guess. And she said, you know, even if nothing comes of it right now, if even years down the road Adrian were to surface

and he knew that this effort was put into everything to still be looking for him, he's going to know we never forgot him and that he was loved. How far did it say Clyde Forks was? 15 kilometers? Yeah. On this little road. Okay.

The roads are getting smaller. Man, this is back here. Wouldn't want to run out of gas anywhere back here. It's definitely becoming 4x4 territory right here. No winter maintenance beyond this point. If I see anybody on a snowmobile, I'm going to flag them down. 3km, so someone spray painted in orange paint the kilometer markings on trees as we're approaching here.

3km mark, so I guess we're three kilometers from something. See? We're back at 511. Oh my god, you're kidding. Was that Clyde? That can't be Clyde Forks we just went to. So we went in a circle. And arrived back on the main road.

We just turned right on the wrong road Clyde Forks here we come It does seem kind of weird like two psychics that allegedly didn't know each other Saying the name Clyde Forks. It does seem kind of, even to me, kind of skeptical. It's stranger than fiction, and it really is. I know your dad was quite

anxious, or not anxious, but quite interested to know once and for all is he in Clyde Forks or not? Yeah. Would you say your parents kind of became more religious after Adrian? I wouldn't know because I was only two, right?

But I also, I believe they referenced their faith back then too. So, you know, I believe they've always had a strong faith. If maybe they turn to it more so after, I don't know. I couldn't say. I posed the same question to Adrian's eldest brother, Lee, who himself became an Anglican priest. In my parents' desperation, they wanted to find him. And so they tried any and all means. I remember they used to go to some group called Metaphysics because they were trying to come up with some answers,

A, what happened to him, and then maybe some of the more philosophical questions, why? And it was because of that that I believe they started to go back to church. They turned to faith. Because of the trauma of the loss of my brother and their son. So in your situation now, you're an Anglican priest. Yes.

And so how did you get there? The research shows that families transmit faith to the rest of the family. So often children inherit their faith and it doesn't become their own until they work it through themselves. And so I went to church until I was about 14 and like almost every 14 year old, you know, no, this doesn't interest me. And then it was later on, I started my own journey into faith.

Back on the road to Clyde Forks. We're almost there. That's a turn right, eh? Yeah, we're at a fork in the road right here. This may be Clyde Forks. We're almost there. That's a turn right. Yeah we're at a fork in the road right here. This may be Clyde Fork right here. Just of all places that two psychics would have named, why would they have named this place? And I've just been noticing all the valleys. And I believe they mentioned that as well down in the valley.

Can't be much further. This has got to be the forks up here. It's beautiful, though. I'd be interested to see and to talk to police about their use of psychics, because I know that psychics do become parts of cases and case files. I'm not sure that I've ever heard of a psychic having solved a case, though. Maybe I'm wrong. But police do entertain it.

I'm Detective Sergeant Stacey Gallant from the Toronto Police Cold Case Homicide Squad. In a number of homicide cases I've had over the years, I've had psychics kind of reach out and, you know, offering reasons why something happened. And in my opinion, I read these things almost for entertainment purposes, really. If you are having that sense of, you know, maybe there's something to it, you're going into more work and trying to uncover things that, you know, likely don't exist. You know, they talk

about things that are just so far out there that it's totally fantasy world. I haven't had any of these cases where, you know, I've received a tip like that from a psychic that was anywhere close to resembling anything that really happened in the case or lead me to anything to assist and solve a case. I'm against that as an investigator because I don't find it of any evidentiary value and it's not something I could use in court or would be willing to use in court. But I think they actually could do some damage in terms of they give a false sense of hope to some families sometimes. But police who took part in the search for Adrian back in 1972 approached it differently.

Bob Argue, now 80 and living in his summer trailer year-round, was there at Holmes Lake as a member of the Ontario Provincial Police. No, we never ignored anybody, especially the clairvoyants that would say he's within so much a distance and go this way, and well, we'd do it. We had stuff like that coming in. We searched everywhere it was suggested, and we'd have the army searching nothing. Some of them I wouldn't have bothered, but our superiors, you know, check those out, you know, so go check them out. Do as you're told. Clyde Forks is at the top of a rise,

near where the Clyde River branches off into two major tributaries, forming a gigantic valley and wetland. We cross a low bridge and pass a single green paint-cracked sign. Clyde Forks. Clyde Forks. And there's a few houses. Watch for children. It actually is a little settlement here. Sort of get a lay of the land and see what we can see here.

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visit Canada.ca slash It Pays to Know. A message from the Government of Canada. So many practical reasons why a child could not just suddenly start existing here. Birth certificate, health card, identity. Looked like too active a town. There was a church there. Could a place even so remote allow for this? What we'll do is we'll park and we'll just walk around and I can go up the doors and see if I can talk

to some people here and see if they might have any idea or their memory might be jogged by the sketches. I'm gonna go into the church. Okay we're outside here in Clyde Forks. It says Clyde Forks United Church. Let's go down the driveway here. It doesn't look like there's anybody who could possibly be here because the tire tracks aren't that fresh. Hey, sir. Hello, how are you doing?

I'm good. Did you lose something? No, no. Well, we did, actually. We lost a person. We're looking for a guy who disappeared in 1972, and his name was Adrian McNaughton. I've heard that name.

You've heard Adrian's name? Yeah. So this is Dwayne, and this is Chantel McNaughton. Hi, Dwayne. Hi. Thank you. I've been up here, well, going on 10 years, but this is all my relatives all up here,

right from the Fivert oven, right straight from here and out to Calabogie and Packingham and all that. I'm originally from Odessa Kingston area. I was in alcohol drug rehab there and I cleaned myself right up so I haven't touched anything in over 30 years. Oh good for you. Yeah and I just turned 50. Wow. Yeah good for you. I work for CBC radio. Right on, right on. So I'm doing a podcast. It's a village with less than about 20 houses, and luckily we've stumbled across one of only a handful of Clyde Fork's permanent residents, if not its friendliest.

Dwayne Babcock is slight of frame, unshaven, wearing glasses, and a low-fitting hand-knit wool hat with thick dangly ties down each side. He smiles a lot, and he reminds me mostly of a helpful ski lift operator. So I'm doing a podcast, actually, about this fellow Adrian McNaughton who went missing in 72, and we had some psychics say that he disappeared and came to Clyde Forks. Well, you're in the right spot. There is the monument right there. What's the monument? That's the, it's called the highest peak of Lannert County.

So who, who's sort of a more full-time resident around here? Over here. You, that's it? You guys are the full-time residents? Full-time. We've been here the longest. Really? Yeah. And everybody else has justtime residents? Full-time, we've been here the longest. Really? Yeah. And everybody else has just moved on? Just moved in, yeah.

I've heard of this when I moved up here, like nine years ago. I've heard of this person. What I'll have to do, I'll have to get a hold of my friend that lives here, he's been here for, oh, I'm gonna say 15, 16 years, but he's been born and raised up around here and he'll probably end up knowing this person so does the picture remind you of anybody here yes

it does i'm just trying to think who who there's an analogy guy white goatee i think he's in his 80s, 90s, I think. So Adrian, at this time, would be about 49, 48, 49. Because his grandson's about that age, eh? The one that comes up here. And he used to come up around here two or three times. We have some other pictures. I can just show you some of these other versions of pictures we have here. So we've got the version of Adrian with sort of bald with no mustache and we've got the version of Adrian with a mustache. Looks so familiar though. And then there's the one with

glasses. Do you mind if I hang on these? No in fact I'd love you to hang on to them. Oh good because I was shown to all the people up here that have been here for 10, 12, 16 years. This lady here, Diane Campbell. Cool. Well, why don't we leave that with you? Oh. Do you mind if I get a picture of you in front of the church here?

No. Okay. This one here is the historical, what was, it's the old school meeting hall church and everything back in 1885. Right, so this building was the center of everything. Yes, sir. In Clyde Forest. Yes, sir.

As I take the picture of Dwayne kneeling in the snow in front of the tiny white church, he holds the sketch of Adrian wearing glasses next to his face. Right. But it's only when I get home that I notice Dwayne actually has a slight resemblance to him same glasses and beard and maybe something else or maybe my imagination Chantel spoke to him and looked at the picture

mentioning no resemblance I think it's just me wanting a conclusion I kind of work with the ministry up here. I look at everybody. I go out at night time and I just keep an eye on everybody's houses. I walk. I'm not allowed to drive because I'm legally blind. So me and my guard cat here. But while he cannot drive, Dwayne can see up close

and appears to have little problem seeing the sketches of Adrian. So when did this church has always been here? Always been here. And are there any photos of the parishioners? Of the who? Of the people that used to come to the church? It might be some right there on the wall inside the door. So we're going inside the church here um no it's just the hallway i don't have the key to get in i think that's mr and mrs thomas i'm not too sure yeah so there's a whole kind of family tree tree-ish thing on the wall. Your name's right here. Oh wait, you were... 1972. 1972, right there. Nan Barker. And who was that?

So she was the minister. We should take a picture of that. Just to kind of get the list. Yeah. We've got some other kind of... Maybe if we can find the old minister who was here in 1972, they might know something. So I take a picture of the ministers listed from the late 60s onward.

This would be the graveyard sort of plan, right? This is the cemetery plan. Okay, and it's all, everybody's sort of always gone to this church, right? Yep. And it just closed down. It would be nine years ago that last minister was here. Right. And he just passed away. It's a neat little church in there. Okay, it's a yellow one.

Yellow. Yellow, right up on the left hand side. Okay. And then when you go up there... We get out of the church and Dwayne sets us off to the top of the hill to see Anna, apparently a long time resident. Nice meeting all of you. Thanks very much.

Thank you. Thanks very much. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, well that was one stop shop. Maybe we can go to... well, it's as good as you can hope for I guess. Somebody wants to help and thinks he might have recognized him. The only better thing would be, here he is. So I think we'll go up and see if Anna is here.

The old yellow house here. I don't think this woman's here. I'll leave some of the posters here though, though she's not here. Just pick a selection of them here. So, let's see, I'll leave them here for the woman that lives mailbox and put the little flag up. It's really just like there's nobody here. No. It's a summer kind of place, it seems.

It's sort of like almost an abandoned place. We visit another house with a Confederate flag in the front window along with some snappy no trespassing signs. This house has a Confederate flag in the window. Let's see what happens. Looks like the truck that's actually used to drive in and out is not here. No trespassing violators will be shot. Survivors will be shot again. And the other sign says the average response time of a 911 call is 23 minutes. The response time of a 357 is 1,400 feet per second. Okay, I think we'll leave this area.

Maybe we'll put one of these in the mailbox. Okay, so let's put one of these in here. Nobody's home, so more posters go into mailboxes. And we staple some to the few hydropoles that we see in town. Maybe we'll get contacted by some of these people. I was thinking as you were walking up there, I get the feeling that the houses look like they're not inhabited, but that you see a curtain move as you walk away. Yeah, yeah, no, it's, you know, people like to have their privacy. They live out here for a reason.

Yeah, like some people may not even leave their houses it looks like here. It's interesting, it looks like they just come and stay forever. Yeah. Anyway, what do you think of that lad at the church over there? they just come and stay forever. Yeah. Anyway. What do you think of that lad at the church over there? Interesting. It feels like it's a place where the people that might have been here the time Adrian went missing may not still be here so. Yeah that's right.

That's why the church is of interest because it's usually the sort of archive right it's a place where so i got pictures of all the grave sites and the names on those sites okay which doesn't mean anything because it's not going to say adrian mcnaughton but it does show a sense as we're driving out of clyde forks i notice a house for sale on the left driveway's active and there's people in it on that sorry to bug you. Are you the owner of the house? No. Oh so you guys don't own live here? No it's vacant. No one lives here. Okay. The real estate the listing agent is in there. Oh so he might know. Okay cool thank you. What's the listing agent's name? Awesome. Thanks, man.

Hello? Is Brad here? Hey, you're the listing agent, right? Yeah. So I work for CBC, and we just happened by and saw some people. We're looking for people that have lived in this area for a while. Okay. And wanted to give missing posters out to people that have lived here for a while because this fellow Adrian McNaughton went

missing in early 72 and there's been some thinking that he might be up here. Okay, I'm the realtor so I can I could give that to the owner. She lives in Per now oh okay yeah that would be helpful what i'll do is i'll give you a number of these okay and how do you know how long they lived here the owner oh 35 40 years oh well that would be perfect then yeah so we'll give you one of each of these okay there's more people up here than expected to see let's just do somebody showing it here and they they just offered me showing it when I was up here. Okay. Can I get your card? Yeah, I have some in the car actually. I'll give that to the seller. Yep.

Yeah, who knows, he could be up here and they know exactly who it is. So the real estate agent is going to give the posters to the owners who have been here for 40 years. Oh wow. Here's my CBC card. Okay, perfect. David Ridgen, okay. Yeah. And there's the one with the glasses.

Oh, okay. That's the other one the family felt was also a really good likeness. Okay. Look, I might even know him. There's so a lot of real estate up here, like... Well, if you come... I'm thinking maybe I've met the guy, you know? This guy's giving my card.

Uh-huh. I returned to the church to give Dwayne my CBC card. I forgot to give him my card. Okay, right on. And he's talking to another man, much older looking, who has driven up in a big black truck. There's nobody around now. This village is all new people from then, you know. All the old folks has died.

I soon learn that his name's Doug Buecher, but he's also relatively new here. Wow. Everybody in every house in here has either passed away, sold and died, moved on or whatever. See, the old folks that lived here, they've retired into Perth now, and they're still alive. One fella's name is Buddy Close. What his real name is, nobody knows really. Everybody just called him Buddy, you know. But then there's a... How long would Buddy have lived here?

His whole entire life. He's in his 70s now. Wow. And he's in Perth in an old folks' home. No, him and his wife are still with him, and they've got an apartment in Perth. an old folks home? No, him and his wife, his wife's still with him and they've got an apartment in Perth. Ah, okay. The only thing with Buddy Close,

you'd have to get together with him and his wife together because Buddy has a hearing problem. He's a hard man to understand what he's saying. He can't hear his voice, so he's really talking funny, you know, But if Marie, his wife, was there she could help you out. So they may know something. So, we're going to get the information, one way or the other, whether some new person came into town or not, you know? And so the mission, I think, is accomplished.

Okay, so you feel satisfied? Do you want to go anywhere else right now, or do you want to just kind of... No, I'm good i think more came of this than i thought was going to when we first got here for sure it always does you kind of forget what brought us here in the first place i don't mean adrian's disappearance but that it came from psychics you know but other But other than that, it's just interesting to talk to the few people that we have and just interested to see where it goes. I guess Dad had mentioned about being here for an auction and he spoke to people,

but I'm sure he didn't come out and say, a psychic told me my son that disappeared was here, whereas you've broached the subject itself. So I think that would please him. son that disappeared was here whereas you've broached the subject itself so I think that'll I think that would please him I'm in a Perth Ontario grocery store buddy closes number didn't turn up in an online search and I've asked the women at the customer service counter for their phone book. Oh hi. Do you guys have a phone book here? Yeah like a Perth phone book.

Oh awesome thanks so much. Yeah totally freaked those people out. Hello. Please leave a message after the tone. No answer at Buddy Close's place. But I'll come back. And I'll come back, and I'll find out where that Clyde Forks United church minister went too. And among other tips coming in, there's at least one about a 1957 black-and-white dodge.

And all the while, the ice up at Holmes Lake is starting to melt faster. We still have the big dive to undertake there. And maybe, possibly, we'll come closer after it all to answering the question, where did Adrian go? On the next episode of Someone Knows Something. If someone has done something horrible like that, we need to be found out. And that's why we like murder mysteries, because there is truth in the world. And so someone did it or someone didn't do it.

We want the truth to come out. Visit cbc.ca slash sks and click on this week's episode to see more letters from psychics received by the McNaughtons. To listen from the beginning, go to cbc.ca slash sks

or download the podcast on iTunes or your favorite app. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The show is also produced by Ashley Walters, Sandra Bartlett, Steph Kampf, and executive producer Arif Noorani. The music is by Bob Wiseman, vocals by Mary Margaret O'Hara, and Jess Reimer. never stop my love. I will never sleep. All I want's an answer for this mystery I leave. Maybe one day we will all look out on the sun And know a light that shines the truth on her life Hello again, SKS listeners. We just want to remind you again about the Someone Knows Something audience survey on our website.

If you want to tell us what you think of the show and how we can make it better, visit cbc.ca.sks. Thanks for listening.