Someone Knows Something - S2 Episode 10: Mom

Episode Date: January 30, 2017

David speaks to people who knew Michael Lavoie as a child, as well as members of his family, including his mother, Pat Lavoie. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season2/someone-knows-something-season-2-sheryl-sheppard-transcript-listen-1.3846237

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The following episode contains graphic language. Listener discretion is advised. You are listening to Season 2 of Someone Knows Something from CBC Radio. Previously on SKS. The lady on the phone was crying. She said, you know, can we meet to have a coffee?

I thought, who is this? Pat. And then Pat. Pat is Mike's mother. She cries. She said, I hope it's not him that did it. And what was she like? What's Pat like? She's hardcore. She's a bit of a, it's hard to explain. She loves her son. Did you ever see Michael hit anybody or be aggressive towards anybody? Oh, yeah, we'd fight. We got lots of fights. Yeah. We got lots of fights.

You know what I mean? Like, Frank. Michael? All. The whole family. You know what I mean? We found a pad of paper. You could see that something had been written.

And there was a few things that suggested it was a suicide note, and there's a thought that it was sent to a family member. This is Episode 10, Mom. Hello. Oh, hey there. Are you... Yes, I am. I've waited outside this house in a rental van with tinted windows for hours. It's late fall and my second day here, and I've waited because the person who lives here needed to

be home when I knocked. Sometimes there's just one chance, and it has to be the right chance. At least, that's what I tell myself. I work for CBC Radio. My name's David Ridgen. I don't know if you've heard of me. Here's my card. I'm working on a documentary I think you can help me with about Cheryl Shepard. Oh. Is there any way we can talk? It's the right person. Someone whose experiences with Cheryl Shepard

and Michael Lavoie and others in their orbit have led them to request anonymity and an obscured voice. CBC has allowed it for this person, whom I'll call JP. As with everybody I speak to for this investigation into Cheryl Shepard's disappearance, keep in mind who the speaker is, their point of view, whether it's an anonymous JP or an associate of Cheryl's or a friend of Michael's, a police officer, or, of course, me.

See, I'm not... I understand that. I don't talk to any of them. Yeah. I don't associate with them. My life has gotten a thousand times better. I talk to JP in a conversation that instantly becomes personal. Standing on the porch, I was watching from the van just a few moments before.

There's a cool breeze on our backs, and I soon find myself inside at a kitchen table. Except for a dog in the house, we're alone. JP is candid and sincere and soon turns to a criminal past, a long record. Something JP is not happy about. Property related. Not impressive. Property related, that's it. I never looked anybody in the eye and took their money. I was never a violent, didn't light fires, molest kids, firearms, drugs. Just took their stuff and sold it.

Yeah. JP hung around on and off with Brian Sweeney and Michael Lavoie and undertook B&Es, or break-and-enters with them. B&Es. B&Es. Was Cheryl ever involved in that? Oh, yeah. Oh, she was? Oh, yeah. She would keep sex.

That's what they call her, right? Keep sex. What's that mean? You'd be down the road with a radio. You'd be seeing, you know, hey, there's somebody coming. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I've been on jobs with her where she's kept sex.

That's interesting. Back then, everybody was working together. Everybody had, you know, there were certain little crews, and those crews worked together. But it was all, everybody knew each other, family. This is why nobody would ever go and rat out or, you know, this is why. So then, you know, this happens with Cheryl.

I can just imagine all of these people that are like, you know, now what are they going to find out about what we're doing? Do you know what I mean? Yep. I'm thinking, right? Come on with the fucking barking, man. Come on. Oh, yeah. Now that time has passed.

Oh, my God. Yeah. I can tell you stories about black men. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All the shit we used to do. According to courthouse searches and statements by police, Cheryl does not have a long criminal record.

She was once arrested for having stolen property in her apartment, shoes and toiletries and clothing, and she had to undertake community service hours as a result, but according to JP, Cheryl had knowledge of crimes that others committed. Could there be a connection between Cheryl's participation in these robberies and her disappearance? If so, how so? And would more than one person have knowledge of her disappearance, as police suggested early on in my interviews?

And she was a part of it. And she played a little part of it. And would she get some money out of that too, or would it just be kind of... Well, of course, right? Like if she's, you know, at the time, I don't know if she was with Brian or if she was with Mike, but, you know, I'm sure everybody would get a cut, right? That's the way it worked.

Did you ever hear about Cheryl doing sex work? Yeah. Yeah, I've heard of it. Never saw it. Myself, never saw it. But yeah, I've heard that as a rumor. Interesting. And dancing, obviously.

Again, I've heard that. But at the time that I was around them, no, she wasn't doing it then. Cheryl's thieving activities with this group would have started around the time she was with Brian Sweeney and onward through her relationship with Michael Lavoie. Mike and Cheryl started fooling around, and then Brian and him fought and I can remember back then you know I stayed on the outside of it but I can remember I can remember when Mikey had hooked up with her and then Brian was just finding out about it and I believe they got into a fist of cuffs over it too if I can remember correctly and then I can remember Cheryl being around several times being very very feisty

She would be quick to snap, you know quick to go Very angry if she felt that you had offended her or something like that like I me myself I don't ever remember having issues with her ever. It was always oh, hi Cheryl It was good that way, But I know that she had it out with a lot of people. She was... Like a suddenness to it, right? Yeah, she was a feisty little rapper for sure. I don't think she would back down to anybody, I've got to be honest with you. I found her to be very strong that way.

J.P. knew Cheryl, but knew Michael Lavoie better. So I moved the conversation in that direction. I really think that the only thing I can offer you is, you know, from the beginning, you know, Mike's father, growing up with Mike. JP grew up close to Michael Lavoie and the larger Lavoie blended family, made up of full, half and step-siblings. J.P. says there were about 13 in all, and refers to Michael Lavoie as Mikey.

And Mikey, of course, was the youngest. He was always protected. His father used to stick him on us, like a dog. Mostly on me. Like bite, pull hair, and we couldn't touch him. We couldn't defend ourselves, or Jack would lay a beating. What was Mikey's dad's full name? John Abbott. Yeah. He's buried in Cannington. J.P. moves outside for some air. The stories J.P. tells from here onward about the person alleged to be Michael Lavoie's dad, John,

whom J.P. calls Jack, may be difficult for some listeners. The memories are stark and raw. My father was a child predator. Can we talk about that? Well, here's the funny thing with that too, is I know what he did to me, physically, mentally, emotionally, sexually. He left around the late 70s.

He was gone then. It was over. It was done. Bill came into the picture. The Bill being referred to here is Bill Dempsey, Mark Dempsey's father. And J.P. says Bill was a kind man. But J.P. despises the man he claims is Michael Lavoie's father, Jack. Jack, he was incredibly cruel. He was without any remorse whatsoever, this man.

Like I said, he's buried up in Cannington. Just died a few years back, I believe stomach cancer. According to JP, Pat Lavoie used to live with her family near Aurora, Ontario, on a farm called Good Things Farm. John Abbott. I know what he did. It was... the sexual stuff was absolutely fucking horrible, as you can imagine,

and I don't really want to go there. Physically... it was just constant beatings. That's my memories of him, is just constant beatings. That's caused me so much issues myself. You don't know what to believe. You know, you don't know, is this a memory of back then? You know, I remember myself just how cruel he was. I can remember getting beatings from him.

Coat hanger. Fucking belt. And Mikey, was he touched, do you think, by the father? No. He was revered. He was pride and joy. He was, yeah. He would stick him on us.

Like a dog. JP is shaking, almost imperceptibly, breath condensing like a foreign punctuation in the cold with every syllable of memory. None of these assaults can be confirmed, but JP says living in fear of Jack Abbott and Michael Lavoie was something that consumed much of J.P.'s young life. So that you grew up with, must have been some sort of

animosities on kind of a adolescent scale at some point, right? Yeah. Oh, really? Plain and simple fear. And since Cheryl Shepard disappeared from J.P.'s telling of it, the Lavoie family became much more fragmented and out of touch with each other, talking rarely, if ever, about Cheryl or the fact that Michael Lavoie has been named the prime suspect in her disappearance. Michael has always maintained he had nothing to do with Cheryl's disappearance. I am, at least every couple of months, I'm looking for anything now. I'll throw her name up there and see if there's any new comments on, you know, you see some of the forms that are out there, I'm sure you've gone through them all.

And every year there's an anniversary, you know, you might get something from it, but that's it. I follow it. I check it up several times a year. I look just to see if there's anything new. But like everybody else, I'm standing on the outside. But what I will say, had I, for example,

did something to my girlfriend, and this was me instead of him, my family would shut up and not say a word. That's just the way families are. And with that, the kitchen conversation closes, and I return to the van with tinted windows to sit for a while. The picture of how things may have been between Cheryl and Michael becomes easier to paint with each interview,

and JP's commentary, if true, helps provide more depth about Cheryl and Michael. JP says that Cheryl was scrappy, helped with break-and-enters, and that Michael was a bully. The allegations of abuse by Michael's father are disturbing and heartbreaking, but do they mean anything with regard to the Shepard case?

I need more, and I need to get even closer to the people who knew Michael Lavoie. Check, check, check. I drive the van a few hundred kilometers down the road and park it in a lot near a run-down bar. I'm just heading over to Steve Lavoie's place. Hopefully Steve has something that he can add to the story. Steve Lavoie is Michael's eldest brother.

There's a sign that says, We are feel free to come back thanks from the door. Oh hi there. Oh sorry I didn't want to dog out. Is Steve here? Um, yeah, I came home to grab him. Okay, thanks. Oh, okay, thanks. I soon meet Steve's wife. She's pleasant, brass tacks, and mid-50s, and I think she knows why I'm here before I even open my mouth. He's just in his room. He's disabled.

So someday he has good days, someday he has bad days. Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. I didn't know that. I work for CBC Radio. I'm here working on a documentary I think you might be able to help me with. Maybe. I'm not sure. So I just wanted to see if you'll talk to me. What's it on? It's about Cheryl Shepard who went missing back in Hamilton in 98.

So I'm trying to meet everybody in the whole sphere of her life that knew her. Okay, can I ask why now all of a sudden? We knew her. Oh, okay. That's good. I mean, you know the last name is LaVoy. Yeah, well, that's why. I will ask him. I don't know how his reaction's going to be. Okay.

All right. Just give me two seconds. Totally. Thank you. Yeah. I wait for a few minutes while Steve's wife disappears into a dark side room. There I can hear low voices as one of Steve's daughters keeps me company. We talk about what kind of dog she has. He's, I think, a Schnauzer and a Shih Tzu. Ah, okay.

What's Rocky? Schnauzer and Shih Tzu. Oh, okay. What's Rocky? Schnauzer and Shih Tzu. It's not Jack Russell, right? No. Oh, okay. No, we're not fans of Jack Russell's. He says he doesn't want to comment. Oh, okay.

Not at all? Not at all. I guess it would cause maybe some friction or family issues. To be quite honest with you, we don't talk to his family. Oh, is that right? Yeah, only his mom. That's it. I guess whatever.

I mean, if Michael had said anything or... No, honestly, I don't believe he did anything, but I wasn't there. We don't know too much about, you know, the police part of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We just know Mike the person and we also knew Cheryl the person.

Yeah, yeah. And I don't see him doing... That's just not the type of guy he is um it's really just about finding out like what the hell happened right and it wouldn't surprise me if she was down south to be quite honest with you was that something that people thought at the time or i know quite a few of us did but everything got put that it's mike it's mike Mike, it's Mike. And I don't see it. Why do you think he never said anything? Because that would just totally release himself, right? Well, I wouldn't say nothing either.

They tell you don't talk, right? I think that's what a lawyer would say for sure, right? So, I know I wouldn't say anything because everything gets twisted. When it happened, when all of it came out, it was all one-sided. Mike was a bad guy, Mike was a bad guy. But, no. That's what I mean. I don't think that she's gone, like, dead gone.

Oh, I see. You think she's... I think she's just gone. I know that she asked me once, because I was under 21, if she could use my ID to get on a plane. Okay, no. You're going to Florida and they have capital punishment, so you're not taking my ID anywhere. I'm not taking that chance of anything coming back to bite me. I don't know.

She's rubbed me the wrong way. That's interesting. So, did you ever saw her as sort of a happy Cheryl? Every so often, but they were still that violent. You know what I mean? Like, I wouldn't leave her with my kids. What did you think of the marriage proposal and all that stuff? I didn't know about that until she went missing.

I mean, that's how much we talked to Mike around that time. Oh, okay. He came to our house the night he was supposed to pick her up in Niagara Falls. Didn't say anything to us. I saw that on the news. He came to see you guys. What time was that? Like around...

Supper time. Oh. That's all I know. And he didn't have Cheryl with him? No. My job is not to indict somebody, right? So my job is to find... That's why I'm going to everybody, you know?

I'm trying to find everybody. I'd actually like to speak to Pat, too. But I don't know if she would ever... No. No. Don't waste your time. I'm telling you. She wouldn't? You don't think she'd say anything to speak to Pat too, but I don't know if she would ever. No, no. Don't waste your time. I'm telling you. You don't think she'd say anything to me?

No. You'll get a whistle in your ear. What's that? An actual whistle. Really? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you will. Just F off?

Yeah. She'll say, hold on a second, and she will whistle in your ear so that you hang up. Really? I have your card. I can always call her, but I doubt she'll say anything. Back to the van and its raining and overcast. Stephen is ill, but I'm hopeful he may agree to talk at some point in the future. He was associating with his brother Michael back in the 1990s

and may yet have something important to add. I'm feeling a bit wiped, so actually go into the bar I'm parked near just to sit still for a second. But my phone starts ringing, and it's the woman I just talked to, Stephen Lavoie's partner on the line. She says Pat Lavoie, Michael's mother, will speak to me and gives me her phone number. So I call her. Hello? Oh hi, is this Pat?

Yes. Hi Pat, it's Dave Ridgening. I just got a call back. So I was interested in coming up and talking to you. Is there a good day soon? Yeah, I can do it on Monday or Thursday. Monday is good. I can do Monday, yeah. I could come up Monday.

Okay. Then I continue the call I made to set up an in-person interview with an interview because one of my personal rules, make use of your time while you can. You may never hear from people again once you say goodbye. All the stuff they said about my son, I want nothing to do with that bunch. Yeah, I mean, what I really need is someone like you to, you know, tell us what happened from their perspective.

I tell you what I know. I mean, you know, I don't know everything, of course. Right. But I can see things between him and Cheryl and her things. Yeah. You know, I can tell you that stuff. That's what I need to know. You know, and everybody's all on the table then. Did you know she was

a snitch for the police? Cheryl? Yes. No, I didn't. I've never heard that story. Yeah, well, I did something that wasn't very nice. I reported my son-in-law for theft, right? I'm not sure exactly which son-in-law Pat may be referring to here. It could be Brian, who was in a relationship with Pat's daughter Tracy after he and Cheryl split. And next thing I know, the police called me.

No, Mike called me and said the police had just called Cheryl and told Cheryl what I'd done. So there's no doubt in my mind that she was a snitch. She was involved in all the thieving that was going on, right? Is Pat suggesting here that police were using Cheryl as some kind of informant related to the robberies? I'll ask them about this. Calling Cheryl a snitch is odd given that according to the story, Pat started things off by alerting police to a theft by her son-in-law.

She was involved. She rented the locker that all the stolen stuff was put into. And it was all in her name. Right? Yeah. And then she reports them to the police. Pat's saying here that Cheryl rented the storage locker where the group would store their stolen goods. She goes on to say later that Cheryl was also involved in the selling or fencing of items that the group stole. We return to talking about the days and weeks following Cheryl's disappearance. That must have been a pretty stressful time for you.

It was. It must have been unbelievably stressful for you. It was. I was getting over cancer surgery at the time and taking chemotherapy. And, you know, it took its toll on me. You know, I lost so much weight. I couldn't eat.

I couldn't sleep. You know? I lost so much weight. I couldn't eat. I couldn't sleep, you know. And my parents were in Florida, and we'd heard that, you know, the police were going down to Florida looking for her because they had a tip about her going there. So I had to call my parents long distance and tell them, you know, just be careful. I don't know if they'll come to your door or what,

you know? The Florida connection is something we'll be looking into. Right, right. And so you were, must have been interviewed extensively by police at the time, were you? Oh yeah, big, big long, I mean, I don't know how long we were at the station. My daughter and I both went, right? And I didn't know that I had rights that I didn't have to go. They put it to me that I had to come for this interview. I mean, they were so pushy with us, you know, and they took my husband outside and talked to him. And he's not a well man.

And, you know, then they harassed my little granddaughters to the point where they were having nightmares. These were kids that were six and seven years old. These are Mike's kids with Gwen? Yes. Pat says that police were harsh with Lavoie's daughters. I asked Don Forgan, who conducted the interviews, about this allegation,

but he says the interviews were all videotaped and conducted according to his expertise and training in interviewing children. Gwen, too, confirms that there was nothing to be concerned about regarding police treatment of her daughters. Back to Pat Lavoie. I mean, those kids apparently had terrifying nightmares, right? They certainly have, I think. My understanding of it is like, what is the truth?

It's hard for them to know too, right? Right. And I mean, they knew nothing. They weren't even with Mike. They were with me that night. So on January 2nd, when he went to pick them up, he brought them to you? Yes. He always brought them to me, and I would keep them sometimes overnight, sometimes just a couple hours,

because I didn't see them often, right? So Mike brought the kids to you, and then what did he say? Do you remember him saying anything about what was going on with Cheryl that night or where she was? He said she had to go dancing, right? She was a stripper.

So he took her to the club so she could dance. And he never seen her again. Okay, okay. I'm interested in how Pat talks about this moment. Is it her understanding that Michael allegedly was going to take Cheryl dancing or already had taken her and dropped her at the Concord? It seems a small point, but if we look more closely, it isn't, because it makes a difference

to the timing of the case. And also, was this what Michael actually told her? I hope that if I actually meet Pat in person, that I can push a bit deeper here. Pat continues talking for the first time that I have heard about words Cheryl was supposed to have spoken to Michael when he allegedly dropped her off. She told him he didn't have to pick her up, that Brian would be picking her up, right?

And bringing her home. Brian Sweeney would pick her up? Yes. Right. Okay. And that was who she was going to meet there? I don't know who she was going to meet, right? Okay.

I wasn't aware she was meeting anybody. Oh, okay. So here, Pat is drawing Brian, Cheryl's second husband, into the mix on that night of January 2nd. Was Brian supposed to pick Cheryl up sometime after Lavoie allegedly dropped her off in Niagara Falls? Pat's story cannot easily be verified, and Brian really needs to step up and say what he knows. I will be trying to talk to Brian very soon. Did you ever think about Brian Sweeney after this? Did you ever think that he might have had some roles to play?

Oh, yes. Yes, I did. Because Brian's mother, when she was alive, she said to my daughter right after this happened, Brian was spending the weekend with you, wasn't he, Tracy? Brian was with you. Brian was with you. And Tracy kept saying, no, he wasn't. He was not here with me. And she

kept insisting that Brian was there, right? Now, whether she wanted Tracy to lie and tell the police that Brian was there because they suspected him, I don't know, right? I don't know what her reasoning was. Again, Brian comes into the timeline. The obvious way to verify this story is to speak to Tracy or Dorothy. I've repeatedly reached out to Tracy with this and other questions, but

for now, she said she will not speak to me. And unfortunately Brian's mother Dorothy has passed away, so again I need to talk to Brian. If Brian wasn't with Tracy Lavoie, where was he? Pat Lavoie and I continue talking about that first fateful weekend of January 1998. Oh, okay. There was some unknown friend that was supposed to meet her, but if Brian was, she knew him obviously, that's not an unknown friend. Right. Interesting. And then across the weekend, Mike had the kids. He took them back Saturday from you?

I don't know if he took them Saturday or he took them Sunday. It was one or the other, right? Okay. But it was a normal thing for him to bring the kids to you instead of take them to the apartment? Oh yeah, right? I mean, yes, they ended up going to the apartment, you know, after they'd visit with us. But they enjoyed staying with us. They'd put on my nightgowns and dress up and they'd do my hair and, you know, different little girly things, right? Information in hand from Gwen indicates that Lavoie picked up his children on Saturday from Pat's place. Police say that at the time, Pat said Michael picked them up on Saturday the 3rd at 10.45 a.m.

Do you ever remember wondering yourself, like, what the hell, Mike, did you do something? Did you ever remember thinking, you didn't really know either? I came right out and asked him. And he said, Mom, I've never, ever lied to you. And I said, No, you haven't. He's always told me the truth.

Whether he stole something or he had a fight, he always owned up to anything, right? So I said, I want the truth. Did you or did you not hurt her? He said, Mom, I never laid a hand on her. He said, I swear to you. So I dropped it then, right? I have to believe him. Right, right.

But you asked. You needed to know too, right? Yes. Because the question was there, right? Because they were so convinced that he did it, these two police, right? Because the question was there, right? Because they were so convinced that he did it, these two police, right? Even when he tried suicide, right? I got to the hospital. They didn't even have the courtesy to call us. My daughter heard it on the news and called us.

So down we went, right? I forced my way into the room where he was. And there's somebody with a microphone up to his face saying, tell me, tell me. And I ordered him out. I said, you get out and leave him alone. He's almost dead, for Christ's sake, you know. I was so angry.

And then I thought it was a news person, right? And here it was, a news person, right? And here it was a policeman. He wrote me a letter, and he mailed it, and I didn't get it until after he'd come home from the hospital. And he just said, I'm a very unhappy man, mother. He said, I'm sorry, but he said, give my girls a kiss for me, right? And that's about all he said, right? Michael mailed a letter to Pat prior to entering the storage locker. This act was deduced by Detective Warren Corll. It makes me wonder immediately what Michael might have been sorry about.

And if Pat still has the letter. And did Michael mail different letters to others? But on the spot, my gut keeps me from asking if Pat still has hers. I think it's because if the letter is intact and turns out to be important evidence, I don't want to play a role in jeopardizing it. They wanted to keep him, and I said, I can take care of him at home if I could.

Then put him on suicide watch, and I said, no, don't do that, right? He would go bananas if they ever locked him in a cage. Pat says that Michael wasn't in hospital very long before she got him out of there around 6 p.m. on January 7th. And then he came home, and then sort of was ever any, I mean, has it ever kind of stuck in the family's, you know, psyche that you still don't know kind of thing,

or is it just kind of that's it, You're not going to talk about it anymore? No. They just don't talk about it, right? My oldest son, Steve, said Mike wouldn't do anything like that. Mom, I said, I know, right? Yes, he had a temper when he was a kid, right? I mean, who didn't? He got it from me and I got it from my dad, right?

But, you know, he outgrew it, you know. And you keep in touch with Mike pretty regularly, would you say? Yeah, he comes up here at least once a week to see us, right, to make sure everything's okay, and we got groceries, and, you know, because, you know, my husband is very sick, and I was in hospital six months, and, you know, I can't drive anymore. I can't hardly see anymore. I'm going blind.

What did you make of the marriage proposal? Because that was sort of a big public thing and everybody made a lot to do with that. What did you make about that? You know what? Mike told us the truth about that. That was a put-on so they can get on TV. They only did it so they could get on TV. And it was her idea. She said, do you want to go on TV, Mike? He said, sure, why not? You

know, we're having a good time. I mean, they were both uploaded. And so she said, here, and she give him a ring, right? And she said, now get down. And she said, pretend to propose, right? He never would have married her, right? She was too, you know, I don't know. She just wasn't a nice person, right? Did Michael tell Pat the story that the wedding proposal was a lark and that he didn't really want to marry Cheryl? Did Cheryl provide a ring? This is Pat's lens we're looking through to see what's on the other side. For now, back to Pat.

And I'm curious if she has anything positive to say about Cheryl. Installing a TV on a wall sounds simple, right? That was easy. Did you find the stud? You're looking at him. Oh, I can fix that. Saving up to $900 on car and home insurance with Bel Air Direct is simple. Bel Air Direct. Insurance simplified. Certain conditions apply.

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Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. What were her positive and negative attributes, would you say? You know what her good point was? Anytime they did have the kids together, she was so good to those girls. She cooked them what they liked. She washed their clothes. She bathed them.

She did their hair. And she was a real good person with those kids. I have to give her that. She treated them like little queens, right? But for anybody else, oh my God, right? She would fly off the handle if you just looked at her sideways.

What do you think attracted Mike to Cheryl? Sex. Right? I mean, she was free with whoever was available. So I think that's, I really believe that's all it was, you know. You know that, like, if Mike actually spoke about this stuff, it would take a massive burden off him, right? And also probably off all of you guys and his kids. Right.

And I don't know if you have the power to get him to talk. People can't force people to do anything, but it would be great if he would actually say anything. I can ask. I can ask. I would be delighted to come up and talk to you. And if Mike wanted to come up, that would be awesome. If not, I mean, I don't even know how you would even broach it with him, but you're his mother, so you probably know. I'm going down to see him on Sunday.

Okay. So I'll talk to him, I'll ask, but I can't promise anything. Okay. Okay. But people need to stand up, right, at the time, and this is a good time. All right. Well, that's interesting. Thanks very much. I don't want to keep you talking.

It tires you out, I'm sure. I know you didn't expect it. So what time on Monday? It doesn't matter, right? Okay, so I'll just come up and knock on your door. Okay. I'll just be on my own. I'm a guy with a beard.

Yeah. Okay, I'll see you then. Thanks very much, Pat. Okay. Okay, take care. Bye-bye. The phone call from Pat needs to be sifted carefully. The different stories I'm hearing around Michael's timeline

need to be aggregated so a more thorough understanding of what was going on at the time can emerge. I want to talk to Detective Peter Tom about the letter that Pat says she received from her son, Michael Lavoie. Now, did police ever ask Pat Lavoie if she received a letter from Michael Lavoie that he sent prior to going into the storage locker?

Again, I know there's mention whether it was a concern that perhaps he would have sent a letter before he was found in the locker. I'm not sure if she was actually asked that. Again, I'd have to go through the file. So when you don't, I mean, it's one of those things like the letter, Warren Correll told me that he suspected the letter had been sent to Pat. And then I wondered if any formal request from police had ever gone to Pat about this letter. Because it seems like it could have been, you know, if anything is a smoking gun, it's writing that somebody writes before they go and try to kill themselves

or before they go into the storage locker situation, you know. If he was intending to commit suicide, in not all cases, but in a number of cases, people won't leave a note explaining why or saying their goodbyes. We certainly don't have, if there was a letter, we do not have that letter. Is that something you'd be interested in? Absolutely, if one exists. So I interviewed Pat, and she confirmed that she received a letter. And I asked her what it said, and she told me in various kind of condensed form.

And I didn't see the letter, but she said she had received it, so I'm not sure what it actually says, because I didn't see it with my eyes, but... She still has it? I don't know. Because is it something that would either exonerate her son or implicate him?

That would be my question. The letter, if it still exists, could indeed help to exonerate or implicate Michael Lavoie in the disappearance of Cheryl Shepard. So if it exists, I would hope that Pat might reveal it. Tom confirms later that police never asked Pat about a letter at the time of Cheryl's disappearance. And there's some other written material related to Pat that I want to examine more closely before I go see her in person.

You know, when I had an interview at the house with her, she came over and I talked to her, asked her a question, I wrote the question and the answer down. Odette met with Pat in the aftermath of Cheryl's disappearance on January 20, 1998. This would have been well after Michael's version of events was known to police and went out to the public via the media. And Odette kept written notes of that

meeting. So this is the information that Mike's mother gave you when you sat down and did an interview with her. So you wrote these? Yes, yes. And the police got the original copy. Going through Odette's documentation of the meeting, I see that there's more information about what Pat says Michael told her on the night of January 2, 1998. Here's what Odette says in one telling excerpt. Pat mentioned to me that Mike went on January 2nd to pick up the girls.

And that he brought them to her house and asked his mother if she could babysit for the night because he wanted to take Cheryl to Niagara Falls and dance to make extra money so that they could take the kids out for the weekend. When Mike was there at his mom's, she asked him, where is Cheryl? Where is Cheryl?

He told her that she was at home sleeping. Pat also told me that she is afraid that Mike will try again to take his life. And that on January 6th in the evening... He phoned his parents and told them that he was going away for a while. And that he loves them. Odette's notes indicate that Michael told Pat that Cheryl was at the apartment sleeping and not already in Niagara Falls when he dropped the children off. The story about taking Cheryl to Niagara Falls to dance

so she could make money to take the kids out for the weekend is another significant variation on a theme. Time for my in-person meeting with Pat. Okay, I'm here in a small town in sort of central Ontario and I'm about to go interview Pat Lavoie. I've already interviewed her on phone and this is the opportunity to see her in person. I'm walking toward a row of doors on a small red brick single-story apartment eight-plex and going through my head as I near the door at the end of the simple concrete path,

did Pat talk to her son as she promised? Will Michael Lavoie be opening the door? Hello. Are you Bill? Yes. Is Pat here? Yes. Bill Dempsey lives with Pat. They've been together almost four decades.

Bill's 75 years old, struggles to move, has palsied facial and vocal outbursts, and may have suffered a stroke. Oh, hi, Pat. Hello. Beyond, I see Pat, who's 68, slowly making her way to a kitchen table with a walker. She's shorter with a tough, no-nonsense exterior and harbours a terrible, rumbling cough.

Here's my card. Come on in. Oh, thanks. Hello. A small dog named Katie, a Shih Tzuitsu that looks nearly identical to Odette's Muffy comes up to inspect me as I take a seat at the table. Evidently, Michael is not here. How are you?

Not too bad. Here's my card for you. Okay. Thanks very much for doing this. What's the dog's name? Katie. She's nosy. What I'd like to know, if you can remember anything about the time that Cheryl disappeared, what the time was like back then for you as a family, because it must have been very stressful for you and for Michael.

It was very stressful. Having news people parked outside my door and prowling through the building and banging on my door all hours of the night. I didn't know if somebody was breaking in or what, you know? And then I opened the door a bit and left the chain on, and, oh, we've got to talk to talk to you we got to do the interview so i slammed the door right we had to finally put a note on the outside of my apartment door no newsman get away you know i mean i wasn't not very nice about it

i just told them in no uncertain terms, right? Well, like, we never did nothing. Well, we want to live in peace, right? So you guys have been together for a while. You experienced this together. You went through this together. Right. And how long did that last for?

So she disappeared January. Oh, for weeks, right? What about a week? Bugging us and bugging us, right? I mean, I went to go out one night to go to bingo, and I go out and they're sitting on the hood of the car. Now, how do they know which car is mine, right? So tell me about, let's go to that time, around that Christmas.

So Christmas 97, did you see Cheryl at Christmas time? Over the holidays, I think her and Mike came up to the house, right? And there was no problems or anything. They just, you know, we had a nice visit. Like, she could be very nice. Very nice, right? And my mom thought she was the nicest girl. She offered to help with the meal and help with the cleanup.

We played cards and, you know, there didn't seem to be any problems. Going through the time period of Cheryl's disappearance with every subject is important. And I want some more detail about the aftermath of the TV marriage proposal. We didn't know nothing about it until we seen it on TV. And then did they tell you after, did they talk to you afterwards about the proposal? Yeah, Mike told, Mike, because I asked him, right? Because I didn't think he would marry her. I really didn't, you know? He said, Mom, no, I'm not getting married. He said it was just a game to go on TV, right? And when did he tell you that? Right after? Yeah. Before Cheryl disappeared?

Yeah. And was Cheryl with him when he told you that? No. Oh, okay. So you never heard her say it was a joke or a game or anything? No. Okay. I never seen her again. After New Year's Eve on TV I seen them, right? Never spoke to her again? Mm-hmm. And so they were last seen at that bingo hall, which was across the street from that apartment building that had been on Queenston Road, 851 Queenston. So they were at the bingo hall on January 2nd, 98. And then what happened? Like, did you, have you heard any? I don't know.

My daughter told me Cheryl's missing. She didn't come home, right? I said, oh, great, right? Next thing I know, I got police at my door, news people at my door. Like, you know. And Mike, just tell me a little bit about what kind of person he was as a little guy from growing up and, like, what's he become kind of thing.

Just sort of tell me, as his mom. He was a little bugger, right? When he was small, right? And he loved to fight, right? And then he just outgrew it right did he get along with his siblings so so right oh jesus oops you okay yeah yeah does he keep in touch with his siblings? With Tracy, he does, right? And Stevie's so far away, right, that he doesn't go up there.

But if Stevie comes here and Mike happens to phone, then they'll talk, right? But to your knowledge, nobody in the family other than you has asked him anything about Cheryl's disappearance? No, I don't think so, right? Unless Tracy has, then he didn't say anything, right? They were very close. So Tracy, do you think she would talk to me if I went to talk to her? I don't know.

Just independently? I really don't know. Where are you from? I'm from eastern Ontario originally. I come from a little town called Earnprior. A little logging town. You ever heard of it? Yeah.

It's near Ottawa. Yeah. So I grew up on the river there. And then I moved to Toronto. So Mike's dad was your previous husband, right? Who's Mikey's dad? I don't want to divulge that. Oh, that's fine, that's fine.

I feel the chill of JP's words in the room, but it passes quickly, and I move the conversation to learning a bit more about Pat's understanding of Michael's psychology. There was an incident that someone told me about, and then I looked in the paper and it was there, about Mike and Gwen, when they were together, Mike saying to the police that he had killed Gwen and the kids and then went in for some... What was that all about?

He fell and banged his head really bad, right? And I don't know what it makes you do, but he was saying all kinds of weird stuff. And then he wouldn't even remember what he had said, right? And this was around that time. This was before Cheryl disappeared. This was like 1990. Oh, yeah.

It was quite a while before, right? The 90s, yeah. Yeah. I mean, they went to the apartment and talked to Gwen, and she was fine. The kids were fine. There was no, no broken furniture, you know, anything. He had somehow convinced himself in his head that he had done this. Yeah, right. And did he have any long-term sort of psychological therapy after that or any kind of?

No. He just, he just got better and, you know, he was fine. Was he ever on any medication for anything that you know of, Mike? No, no. He doesn't even go to a doctor when he needs to go, right? So Mikey's the only one who comes to see you now? Yeah. Stevie. Pretty much.

Well, Stevie does, right, but when he's healthy enough. But it's hard on him to drive all the way out here. So when did he first sort of start worrying about Cheryl being missing? When did Mike start worrying? Probably the Saturday night. Yeah. Did he call you and say, she's missing, what do I do? No, he didn't. He didn't let us know, right? He just had his kids and he was enjoying them,

right? So it wasn't until the Monday then that she was actually reported missing by Odette, right? Yeah. I move into talking about the letter Pat mentioned receiving when I talked to her on the phone. The letter from Michael written just before he went into the storage locker. And you said that he had communicated with you before he went in the locker. But how did that work? Just normal talking, right?

But you had gotten a letter, you said. Well, he said in the hospital, he said, Mom, if something happens, he said, there's a letter on the way to you. And he said, there's some money in it. He said, you give the money for my girls and he said i'm sorry right but you had received this letter and what did the letter say when you got it just that he was very unhappy and he didn't want to go on right and he said he loved me love bill and he said make sure my girls know I love them, right? So Michael alerted his mother to be on the lookout for the letter,

again saying he was sorry. Did he say why he was unhappy? No, he didn't, right? And when you received that, then what did you think? I was scared, right? Because I was scared he'd do it't, right? And when you received that, then what did you think? I was scared, right? Because I was scared he'd do it again, right? But he never has. He's gone on with his life.

So Mike never confided to you or any other family member his involvement in Cheryl's disappearance. There was never any... No, no, no. I don't believe he did, and I don't believe he did it, and I don't believe Brian did it either, right? So, that's my opinion anyways, right? I mean, Mike's very close-mouthed

about everything and anything, right? He never said nothing. So... And then the family, how did everybody take it? Oh, everybody was upset, right? The police even tried to get one of his boys to get Mike to confess to him, right? Undoubtedly, Pat's talking here about Bill's son, Mark Dempsey. They rented a motel room and put him up there, paid for all his expenses and everything, right?

And he laughed. He said, what do they think? I'm going to turn my brother in for something, right? He just took the money and everything, right? How did you find out about that? Did he tell you? Mark told you? He thought it was funny, right?

That he had conned the police, right? You don't talk to Tracy anymore? No, you know. But other than that, I don't know. So I'm just thinking again, randomly, some things come up in my head. Back at the time, January 2nd, 98, when Cheryl disappeared, I think that's the day that people last saw her, bingo, and then they didn't see her again.

Yeah. Apparently, Mike made a phone call from your house to Cheryl, answering machine, and said something. Do you remember him making a call on January 2nd in the afternoon? No, I don't. Yeah. I mean, it's a long time ago and it's yeah would have been late afternoon and a lot of stuff i i forgot 20 years ago yeah yeah yeah i mean he might have

used the phone i mean i i don't know right did you ever see them fighting or cheryl and mike oh yeah but it was nothing really right like physically fighting? No, no, no, no, no. I mean, she would fly off the handle at anything, right? You just look at her sideways and she'd just fly off, right? And did Mike have a kind of a temper too? Oh, yeah, he used to have a temper when he was a kid, but then he outgrew it, you know? You mean like when he was a teenager or when he was younger?

Any time that she ever come to the house to play cards, she always wore chocolates, right? All her arms were showing and everything else. You ever seen a mark on her? No. You ever seen a black eye? You ever seen a split lip? No. You ever seen nothing, right? No bruises, nothing?

No, nothing, right? I talked to Bill before the episode aired, where Cara Branton describes bruises on Cheryl, so he's not responding to anything from the podcast with this, his own recollection about not seeing marks on Cheryl. So have you thought over the years, what happened to Cheryl then? Where did she go? What could have happened after they the years, what happened to Cheryl then? Like, where did she go? What could have happened after they got home, after that bingo game? I don't know.

So did you, when you guys, did you guys help with the search? There was a ton of searches. Did you guys ever go in the bush and look for her? No. No. No. I wasn't interested, right? No.

Did Mike, do you think, did he help look for her? I don't think so. So that's part of, I think, part of the reason why people might be suspicious, right? Yeah. Why do you think he wouldn't? Because he didn't want cameras shoved in his face, right? That's why we wouldn't go. I wasn't going to be put on TV and, you know,

oh, his mother's helping search and blah, blah, blah, right? I keep wondering if I might get lucky and Michael Lavoie might just come through the door while I'm here. But then I realize that Pat hasn't told him she's been talking to me yet. No, I haven't talked to him about it, right? You don't think that he'll... Because any time it ever comes up, right, he gets upset, right? Because for a while there, every New Year's, it was on TV, right?

And then it stopped. So we would put the TV on to make sure if it was on, and if they'd found anything, and I'd ask him, and he'd say, Mom, I don't want to talk about it, right? Okay, fine, right? I can understand why it would upset everybody, and especially Mike, because of all the focus that's been on him, because he doesn't like to talk about it, right? So he hasn't said anything about it.

I'm pretty sure that if he actually agreed to talk about it, that that would go away. I think a big burden would be lifted from him, from you, from his kids especially. But you don't feel comfortable asking him to talk to me. I won't put you, I'm not going to, you make that decision. I don't think he would, or Stevie wouldn't, or I don't know if he wants to talk about nothing that happened 20 years ago, right? Right.

Yeah. Okay, well, thanks very much. I appreciate your time, and I know that you're, you know, it's not easy to talk about this kind of stuff. No, it's not, right? I mean, we put it all behind us. Anything else you'd like to add? No, I don't think so.

Something you've always wanted to say? I can't think of anything. My opinion always is the more truth you tell, the better you feel. So that's for everybody, right? Yeah. And I'm glad that you're able to talk about it. Alright, well thanks very much much we'll see you later okay take care talk to you again pat and bill settle back at their kitchen table as i leave

they say that michael's the only one who visits them now in this little country town. Everyone else is sick or estranged. A family that fell apart in the wake of Cheryl's disappearance. A family with secrets of its own. A family whose youngest was a bully, J.P. says, and that contained for a time an abusive parent, Michael Lavoie's father.

How do the secrets add up in the end? We're getting closer. Michael told his mother he never touched Cheryl, but Gerald Davidson saw him grabbing Cheryl by the throat and threatening her just weeks before she disappeared? And how do all the versions of stories about where Cheryl was and what she was doing enter the calculation? Depending on who you talk to, Michaels said she was sleeping, dancing, sick, at work, about to go, already gone. Brian's still outstanding.

Was he supposed to pick Cheryl up? Was the lie detector enough to exclude him? And I've left here, Pat's little apartment, without asking again to see the letter Michael wrote and mailed his mother before he entered the storage locker. I want that letter, if it still exists, to continue existing. Does it contain exoneration or a smoking gun? I want that letter, if it still exists, to continue existing. Does it contain exoneration or a smoking gun?

If other letters exist written by Michael, will their owners finally come forward to help illuminate Michael's intent in their writing? And what about Cheryl's letter? One she wrote before she disappeared to people she loved. And something else I've discovered, something else that people do to Episode 10, Mom. Visit cbc.ca slash sks for more information on the case, including a who's who list that will help you keep track of everyone we've spoken to in our investigation.

Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen and mixed by Cecil Fernandez. The series is also produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kampf, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Our theme music is by Bob Wiseman, with vocals by Mary Margaret O'Hara and Jess Reimer. ¶¶ For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.