Someone Knows Something - S2 Episode 7: Ghost

Episode Date: January 9, 2017

David drives cross-country to meet with Gwen, Michael Lavoie's partner of many years. Retired detectives share new details about their investigation. And a local reporter reveals a previously unreported story about Lavoie. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season2/someone-knows-something-season-2-sheryl-sheppard-transcript-listen-1.3846237

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Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. This is a CBC Podcast. probably be murdered, right? And I asked him, I said, did you do it? How long did you work with the police then when they asked you to try to get Michael to confess? At least two weeks. Yeah, at least two weeks. They paid for my hotel. They give me 50 bucks a day.

I think Mark let Mike know that he was talking to the police. And that's why it didn't pan out. He telegraphed it somehow. He did. I think he blatantly told them. Gwen's is over here. I believe Cheryl would want to help other women who are in abusive relationships.

That's the kind of person Cheryl was. Odette's reading the words of Gwen, Michael Lavoie's former partner. Odette spoke to Gwen in the wake of Cheryl's disappearance and would like to speak to her again, and so would I. It's just a matter of if you're able to go or not. So what's your thoughts? This is Episode 7, Ghost. Over the past few days, I've driven off the Canadian Shield, past the Great Lakes, heading west into the flatness that Canada becomes. It's a long way, but always a worthwhile trip

when you suspect that someone must know something. I'm here in a western Canadian city on the way to speak to Gwen who is with Michael Lavoie for many years and had three children with him. And Gwen was around, in and around the time that Cheryl went missing. She knew Cheryl. Her children knew Cheryl.

And I think Gwen may have some knowledge of at least Michael LaVoy's state of mind at the time, the kinds of things he was doing on the day and night that he said he was dropping off Cheryl in Niagara Falls. All these questions that are important to the case. I'm just pulling in here now, go into her place of work and see if Gwen can speak to me. It's a pretty busy place. It's taken a while to get here, but I've stuck with the plan of driving until the last minute in case Odette changed her mind. She didn't, so here I am. I wasn't able to find Gwen's home address and I didn't want to contact her on social media where I've seen her presence

because I think it's important to connect a face with a request like the one I'm proposing. Help with a case that's this close to you and your family. So, into Gwen's workplace I go. For this first meeting, I want to arrange a time outside of work to have an actual conversation. Sorry, excuse me. Then I see Gwen at one of the cash registers near the exit. Sorry, excuse me.

Then I see Gwen at one of the cash registers near the exit. It's totally her. She's smiling, talking and upbeat as she checks out her customers. A kind and weathered but still pretty face. She's wearing a black shirt and silver necklace, and the moment seems right. So I line up behind someone with a cream-coloured sweater on a plastic hanger. They're checked through, and I make sure nobody else is in earshot and step up.

Hi there. Hello. You're Gwen, right? Yes. Okay, I'm David. I work for CBC, and I'm working with Odette Fisher. Gwen turns white and brushes her hand across her heart, taking a short step back. She seems to nearly faint at the very sound of Odette's name.

I know, but I'm really sorry. I just really wanted to talk to you for two minutes. I don't want to bother you. It's the only way I could. I found it on Facebook. She couldn't come out. Yep. Yep. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I shuffle off to the side as Gwen goes to a young man with a managerial stance nearby. Just before walking away, she says, I will talk to you. But I'm not sure what's going to happen here. She's going to get me kicked out or she's going to take a break. Did you just talk to Gwen? Yeah, unfortunately we can't have that. She doesn't feel comfortable right now to do it and she's in working time.

That's fine. Maybe sometime after work or when she's finished. Yeah, but right now she's working and we can do that. Okay, that's fine. Maybe sometime after work or when she's finished. Yeah, for right now, yeah, she's working on each and every one. Okay, that's fine. No worries. Thanks. Now I'm sitting in my car, scratching out a handwritten note to Gwen, in the hope that I can get it to her and that she'll read it before I depart. I've decided to stay in town for another day or so to see if Gwen might call.

I read the note back to myself because it has to be right. So sorry to intrude on your workspace and your life today. This was the only way I could think of to speak to you in person. It has to be right. I won't mention her children actually. Freaking grade two printing. Well, I sent in a little note just to say sorry for having to see her at work and I'm not sure that it would have gone any differently had we called or what are the different permutations that would have allowed this to end successfully I don't know how you break through that, but the information that she has may help the case. And she may or may not...

It's two and a half kilometers. Take the exit on the right. She may or may not know that, but I wanted her to see me in person rather than some disembodied voice on a phone from Ontario. Hi, I want you to tell me everything you know. So you take that risk of going in person and it can be frightening if you're confronted with something you've parceled away, stuck it in the vault.

When I mentioned Odette's name, she looked like she had seen a ghost and clutched her chest, and I just felt awful. You know, I could almost see her having a heart attack. Well, it's like I'm bringing up this ghost, right? This is a ghost you thought you'd exercised years ago, and then here's this guy putting it in your face again and reminding you that you didn't really get rid of it at all, and it's actually just stuck there. And one thing's for sure, you can't get it out unless you talk about it.

So I feel awful for that, but on the other hand, my job is to find out what happened to Cheryl, and maybe she'll read the note and decide to help. I think she'll come around. After waiting around for an extra day and a half, I don't hear from Gwen, so I ruminate on what's happened all the way back on the drive to Ontario. This trip was a long way to a beginning and hopefully not an end. And at least on that front, there are other people to talk to.

So do you recall talking to the kids is the other thing? I'm back with retired detective Don Forgan to hear what he might remember about Gwen and her children from the original investigation. Again, we're in a car, a parking lot, somewhere on the outskirts at a payday loan strip mall. Did you ever remember talking to Michelle or any of the other children, Mike the Voice kids? I was the one that interviewed all three of them, probably because of my experience at interviewing children. I interviewed them at Central Station in the child abuse office where they've got the video capabilities. They were all interviewed on video. Since they were all treated as potential witnesses, Forgan interviewed Gwen and the children separately. Were they able to confirm their movements over the weekend? What we did was we had a transcript of their interview

produced. I can't remember what they said too long ago. Okay, okay. I'm just interested in their movements. I think the oldest one was about nine. The next one was seven. Pretty young. Forgan doesn't remember much about these conversations and has to refresh his memory on the interviews with Gwen and her children from notes he didn't bring. So, another time. But my questions jog Forgan's memory about something else, somehow. He starts pulling details about what was found in the apartment at 851 Queenston during the period when police were forensically examining the place. When the forensic officers went in, actually, when Detectives Millen and Jackson were interviewing Odette at the apartment,

they made observations and there was a cardboard box on the balcony and it had broken glass in it. And there was a picture above the bed, the master bedroom, of Cheryl, and I guess the glass was missing. So they assumed that that glass had come from the picture of Cheryl, and it had been replaced, minus the glass. They also noted a hole in the bathroom door, or other damage to a wall that might have indicated an altercation of some sort. I asked Odette about this, and she says there was a big picture of Cheryl

directly above the headboard of Cheryl's bed, but that it wasn't broken before she left for her Christmas vacation out east. Same goes for the bathroom door having a hole in it. And she says she didn't notice these things when she returned on January 4th either. But she wasn't in the apartment very long before she had to vacate for police, and it was a very stressful time. So the picture was in Cheryl's bedroom? Yeah.

And it was a picture of Cheryl? It was a picture of Cheryl, and I guess it had been above the master bed and had been replaced minus the glass, and there was a glass in a cardboard box on the balcony that had been broken. And the glass had been checked, tested, and all that for anything? Yeah, the forensic officers would have examined that for fingerprints. Interesting, too, the curtain for the balcony sliding door, the curtain rod was missing and the curtain was nailed to the wall. I don't know what to make of the missing curtain rod,

but Odette says the curtain wasn't nailed to the wall before she left for the holidays. And the question of whether blood was found in the apartment has been around since we first heard about the spots on the walls from Odette. I ask the current investigator on the case, Peter Tom, again, point blank, about blood, and he remains cagey,

but eventually gives me a partial answer. Can we confirm or deny that? I mean, we know that there's various things found broken and all this kind of stuff. But can we confirm or deny that blood was found? I'm just thinking, court-wise, I don't want to be confirming or denying anything that may be relevant to a defense or a prosecution, right? Any blood that was substantive on the scene? Let's see, there was nothing substantial.

Okay. In the way of blood. In the way of blood. In the way of blood. Back to Don Forgan in the parking lot, and now he's leafing through some case summaries he's brought along. He stops putting his finger on the page, something from Pat Dempsey, Michael Lavoie's mother. So this came from Pat Dempsey.

The police were trying to locate Mike, and she told him that Mike had told her that he had dropped Cheryl off at the Concord, and then he picked up his girls to bring them up for a visit, and then he went back to pick her up and she wasn't there. And that came from Pat Dempsey. He went back? Okay. This is the first

time I've ever heard that piece of information and it seems to hit Forgan the same way too. That's the first time I remember hearing that that he went back. The police got it in a phone call to Lavoie's mother, Pat, late on the evening of Monday, January 5th, looking for Michael, who was supposed to be coming to the police station for an interview.

Pat told police at the time that Michael told her that he went back to pick Cheryl up in Niagara Falls on the Friday night he says he dropped her off, but that Cheryl wasn't there. went back to pick Cheryl up in Niagara Falls on the Friday night he says he dropped her off, but that Cheryl wasn't there. Mike told police at the time that Cheryl was supposed to get a ride home with an unknown friend. But Odette says that Pat told her that Mike said Cheryl was at home sleeping on that Friday night. I'll need to talk to Pat, and I'll have to think about how to approach her

given my experience out west. So at the time of this call, I guess she said that Lavoie was sleeping. He had taken a couple of sleeping pills, but they made arrangements that he would come to the police station within the next 30 minutes. This is like 11 o'clock at night.

And they waited until 2 a.m. and he never showed up. And the date was? This must have been the 5th. Yep. Into the 6th. Then they went to Lavoie's parents' place to check for the vehicle, and it wasn't there. So Lavoie told his mother that he would go to the police station.

And he left about 10 minutes after that. And then, a pause. Forgens seen something else in his notes. Oh, there's a big mystery answered. Yeah, there it is. It was right in black and white all that time. How we figured out

that his car was at the casino. Oh, how did you figure out his car was at the casino? After leaving his mother's place late evening on Monday, January 5th, instead of going to the police station, Michael Lavoie went to a casino? I guess one of the casino squad OPP guys had checked Lavoie's car out at Casino Rama. So then when we did a reverse search of who's checked out this license plate,

came back on that date, he was at the casino. Casino Rama is about a two-hour drive north from Hamilton. And the date was... So the OPP had queried Lavoie's vehicle. It was parked at Casino Rama on the 6th of January at 5.30 a.m. 5.30 in the morning. Yeah. The officer at banks said that the vehicle had been parked at the lot at Casino Rama at 5.30,

and that he checked it. I guess he had a frequent player pass or something like that. So they found that he had been inside gambling until 11.30 a.m. And it was later that day that he was, actually the next morning he was found in the locker, right? The 7th? 1.15. 1 was found in the locker, right? The 7th? 1.15.

1.15 in the morning. Oh, hey there. I'm Andrew Fung, and I want to tell you about my new series with Via Rail. Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard Via Rail's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze. No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy, and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences.

For your next trip, do yourself a favor. Skip traffic and take Via Rail. Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with ViaRail Canada. At Desjardins, we speak business. We speak startup funding and comprehensive game plans. We've mastered made-to-measure growth and expansion advice. And we can talk your ear off about transferring your business when the time comes.

Because at Desjardins Business, we speak the same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business. Police have also verified that at some point during this time period, again, all before Michael was found in the locker, Lavoie was also known to have been in Niagara Falls, separately from when he picked up his children on Friday night, and in Stratford, Ontario. Police associated with the Shepard case call this area the Triangle,

and it's something for a future episode. Retired Hamilton police detective Warren Correll also has a few things to add. Not about the apartment or the Triangle, but about an alleged statement made by Michael Lavoie in the weeks after Cheryl disappeared. The only real utterance that I was aware of is Odette had told me that she was actually driving around with a reporter. His name will come to me. And they pulled up on Mike and the windows were rolled down. And I think Mike was asking Odette, you know, where his hockey equipment was. And Odette

said to him, you know, why don't you tell us where Cheryl is, Mike? You know, and he made the comment of, you know, I can't do that. And actually, the reporter, it was Dan Nolan who was in the car with the Hamlin Spectator. And I tried to take a proper statement off of Dan, but his editor wouldn't allow him to for whatever reason. And, you know, I always told Dan, just make sure you don't throw that notebook out after you wrote it down. It may be an utterance that adds up to nothing. I've read all of Dan Nolan's stories about the Shepard case in the Hamilton Spectator, the newspaper where he still works, but this incident was never reported. Yeah. I don't recall that that was part of any of his stories. Yeah, I don't either. And that's why, you know, it was important for me to interview him too. It was something that Odette had told me. And Dan never said to me, you know, that was never spoken, right?

Hello, Dan Nolan. Oh, hey, Dan. It's Dave Ridge, and I'm just downstairs here. Oh, okay. Are you down at the front desk? I'm here at the Hamilton Spectator to see if maybe Dan Nolan remembers the story Warren Coro is talking about. Okay. All right. I'll be right down. Thank you. Okay, bye. All right. Bye now. The Spectator foyer is dominated by a huge central staircase,

and eventually, Nolan comes down it. Dave, right? Yeah, I'm Dave. Nice to meet you. Can I just grab your picture? And Nolan. Sorry I'm a little late. That's okay. He's younger looking than I expected, lightly bearded and balding at the front

with squarish glasses and a light blue shirt. The air of a seasoned journalist. He's worked many beats over the years from crime, politics, obituaries, and now the copy desk. So you were, I think, the prime reporter at The Spectator that covered the story. Myself and Bill Downey, we were the main police reporters back then. And did Bill also work with Odette like you did? I don't think so, no.

I was running around with Odette. Yeah, yeah. And how did you find working with Odette at the time? Fine, fine. She was, you know, very, you know, sad. She was very, she loved her daughter and she was clinging to anything and anything, trying to find her.

There was a psychic from Caledonia who she'd went to. Dad just told me about a number of trips you went on or sort of occasions when you were working with her. Can you tell me about those and just how those went and what happened on them? Well, the only one I can remember is when we went up on the East Mountain before they built the Red Hill Creek Expressway. That's along Mud Street. They were putting in storm sewers, and they had these huge big pipes, you know, about as big as this room or something. But they had them sit on their side, and they had piles of dirt beside them,

so you could walk up and look inside. And somehow Odette, I guess the psychic, or I can't remember how, but she had this obsession or feeling that Cheryl was in one of these, had been dumped in there. So we went up there, and I drove along mid street walking the fields and yeah I can't remember how many there were there but I can't remember we checked them all and it was about dinnertime so but we didn't find Cheryl mm-hmm and do you remember the time when you were with Odette and you encountered Michael?

Yes, that was the same night. We were driving back. I guess I picked her up at a... She had a friend drop her off at a service station down at Centennial and Queenston Road. So I brought her back there to drop her off with a friend, I guess, to pick her up. And Michael was there getting gas. So we pulled up beside him and he was kind of surprised to see us and he was in his car just about to drive away and his windows were open and she said, tell me where Cheryl is and he said, he just said something like,

you know I can't do that and then drove away. I don't remember you reporting on that story. Um, I guess I probably met with the editors, and I can't remember why we didn't. Feels like a kind of story that should have been published, but I'm not sure, but you heard him say that. Oh, yeah, and I wrote it down. It's in a notepad somewhere buried in my desk and everything.

I still have that notepad and everything. Nolan hadn't managed to find his notebook by the time we met, but I asked if he could try to dig it out, and he did. Next message. Hi Dave, it's Dan Nolan calling from the spec. Hey, I found that notebook. It's dated February 25th, 1998, with the comments between Odette and Mike.

So in the car, Odette says, where is Cheryl? Mike says, quote, obviously I'm not going to answer that, close quote. And then I got down and he wanted his stuff, his piece of CR hockey equipment.

Odette says, just no. He said he was looking for three pairs of underwear, two socks, one jeans, two t-shirts, moved out everything. January 5th, he wanted his stuff. Quote, you give me back my stuff and I'll cooperate. Close quote, Lavoie. And then he called her a liar and drove off. And, oh, here it is. Claim the car was his. She must have said that's Cheryl's car.

And he said, claim the car was his, not Cheryl's. And there you go. So it's good to keep notes. And so this is from February 1998. All right, if you want to give me a call, you know where to reach me. End of message. To erase this message, press 7 and save it. Obviously, I'm not going to answer that in response to,

where is Cheryl, and give me back my stuff and I'll cooperate. What's really going on, if anything, in these statements by Michael Lavoie that Dan Nolan copied down? And why wouldn't the spectator print the story at the time? There wasn't much being said by Lavoie, and one would think any utterances at all would be press-worthy. I asked Nolan about this in our original interview. I was interviewed by the police,

but I didn't sign the statement because we're not agents of the police, but the police, it was Warren Corral, they had a statement, so. But yeah, I don't know why we would have met, I would have met with the city editors the next day, and I guess maybe they just didn't think there was anything there. You went on tour, we didn't find anything,

and he didn't say anything. I understand Nolan not wanting to give his notes to police, but I still don't get why his editors decided against publishing the story. Would these statements, if known, have made any difference to the Shepard investigation at the time? Retired detective Warren Correll. Well, you know what, that was probably the most compelling thing that I've ever heard him say, right?

But then it can also be taken as, I can't do it because I don't know, right? Or I can't do it because I'm going to jail for a long time, you know? So, but still, under the circumstances, it does become a piece of circumstantial evidence that is fairly compelling, right? But when you get it from one person, and then that second person is not going to give you a statement

in relation to it. Again, Michael Lavoie has said to police that he had nothing to do with the disappearance of Cheryl Shepard. Corll and others feel that if Lavoie were to actually speak more about the case, it could help to exclude him as a suspect. And that's, I always told Mike, I said, you know, why don't you do yourself a favor, take a polygraph test, and then we can go on looking for the real murderer, right? And, of course, that was never done.

And if you really care about somebody, you know, if my wife went missing, I'd be screaming at the top of my lungs, you know, come home, where are you, you know, who's ever done something to you? Or, you know, please come forward. But when you don't get that kind of cooperation, again, you know, it's circumstantial, but it's compelling in itself, right? We know that polygraphs, you know,

aren't allowed in court in these purposes, but I believe in the tool. And to a point where some of the polygraphers believe people may have a false negative test, but they talk about that. That comes out, and I have a great deal of respect for polygraphers and what they do, and it is a good investigative tool, but Mike didn't want to have anything to do with it never any other information that came forward that truly would have made somebody else a suspect.

And again, you know, it's always the process of elimination in these cases, right? If I was alleged to have committed a crime, I would want the police to put all of their time into, you know, trying to find the perpetrator and not look at me, because now we're looking at you. And so that never happened in this case. And to this day, how many years now? 19 years on January 2nd, 2017.

But regarding other suspects, what if someone involved in Cheryl's disappearance did go unnoticed? This notion came up again on a recent trip with Odette. Do you remember that they find a remain of a girl that was all cut up? The news came on that they find a remain, a body, inside a house in a garbage bag. And, oh my God, like, it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. That was hysterical. Because you thought it was Cheryl.

I thought it was Cheryl. It wasn't Cheryl. It was a 34-year-old single mother named Maggie Carer. In April 1999, Carer's remains, dismembered and stored in plastic bags and cardboard boxes, were discovered at the home of Sam Pereira, a local steelworker. Eight years earlier, Pereira's first wife, Beverly Davidson, had disappeared without a trace. Hamilton police charged Pereira with two counts of murder, but he overdosed in prison while

awaiting trial. Police have stated that Pereira may have disposed of his first wife's remains in a vat of molten steel, but Pereira died before these claims could be verified. Odette says she told police about a potential link between Sam Pereira and someone in Cheryl's circle. Odette's eldest daughter, Sheila, someone I will interview in the future, had an ongoing relationship with a man named Richard, who allegedly knew Pereira. When I heard on the news, and she says, Richard met him. And what happened in that conversation? I said to her, I said, Richard knew Sammy Perra. She said, yeah, I used to go and see him.

And Sam Ferreira, the same Sam Ferreira... Yes, yeah. ...that went to jail for murdering two people. Yeah, yeah. She told me about that. I thought, oh my God. Like, I just got goose pimple when I found that out. And Richard used to live with Sheila... At the time....at the time that Cheryl was still alive. Oh, my God. Like, I just got goose pimple when I found that out. And Richard used to live with Sheila.

At the time. At the time that Cheryl was still alive. Yeah, yeah. So there is a potential that Cheryl could have crossed paths with Sam Ferreira. That I don't know. That's an interesting connection for sure. And so the police were aware of this connection? Don't forget, I told them about it. I decided to follow up on this and got in touch with retired homicide detective Peter Abbey Rashid,

who was the lead investigator on the Pereira case. Yeah, what are you guys doing with that? That's been like beat up already. It's been on TV, it's been in a book. Okay, well there's a slight chance of a connection between that case and the Shepard case. I wanted to talk to you a little bit about that. Did you ever try to make any connections between the Pereira case and the Shepard case? No, and that's quite interesting. I'd like to know what you have. Okay, well, I'll meet you if you want or talk to you on Monday if you like. Call me on Monday. Let's talk about sometime we can meet.

It's just that I've got a lot of things going on right now. No, that's no problem. I make a note to call Peter Abirashid back and to follow up with Sheila, Cheryl's older sister. It might also be worthwhile to speak to this ex-boyfriend of hers, Richard. In the meantime, I make my way back once more to Odette's place. I have never used a computer. After handwriting the note to Gwen out west, I also decided to reach out to her on Facebook

now that she knows who I am. And without other contact information, it's the only practical way I can get in touch with her. And now, weeks later, I've received an answer back that has brought me to Odette's doorstep once again. So we have a little computer here I'm going to leave with you. And you can use it to communicate with whoever you like on Facebook. It will help the case.

Sometimes there's only people you can reach on Facebook, and Gwen we know is on Facebook. So that's the power switch. Okay. Okay, just put your finger on here. That's the mouse. Oh, God. Oh, shit. I just had it a second ago.

Now, I want you to type me a message. Make me feel stupid, eh? Not when doing the computer, eh? I'm not trying to make you feel stupid. Oh, my God. I'm trying to make you feel stupid. Oh, my God. I'm trying to help you communicate with Gwen. Oh, my God, oh, my God. You're doing well. That's great.

Gwen wrote a message saying that she felt for Odette's pain and that she was open to communicating. I wish I could meet her now, like face-to-face, which would be better, but I think that I was, think I was scared at the beginning. You know, it was a bad time. And I think you had some health concerns about your surgery and stuff at the time too. I was worried about that, and I don't know, it still bothers me, my elbow. I know

eventually it'd have to be done, but... The regret in the room is palpable from both of us. From my end, because of how the first mission to meet Gwen transpired, and for Odette, because she feels her presence might have made a difference. But giving up on Gwen or anybody else who might be able to help is not an option. So where's a good place to have this computer? Just sitting over there on the kitchen table? Yeah. Okay. Now you see this little crappy thing? This thing goes in this little hole here. But it's just really rickety. So I'm wondering...

We get the computer set up on Odette's kitchen table. She regards it with great suspicion. But she's game to sign up for Facebook anyway. Anything to help Cheryl. And she periodically glances at the screen now, waiting for that red flag to appear. The one that indicates a new message from Gwen. Visit cbc.ca slash sks for more information on the case, including a who's who list that will help you

keep track of everyone we've spoken to so far in our investigation. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen and mixed by Cecil Fernandez. The series is also produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kanth, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Our theme music is by Bob Wiseman, with vocals by Mary Margaret O'Hara and Jess Reimer. I will never stop my love. I will never sleep. Something here is precious. Memory I need.