Someone Knows Something - S2 Episode 8: Gwen

Episode Date: January 16, 2017

Gwen speaks about her relationship with Michael Lavoie, what she recalls from those crucial days in January 1998, and the effect that Sheryl's disappearance had on Gwen and her family. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season2/someone-knows-something-season-2-sheryl-sheppard-transcript-listen-1.3846237

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Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. This is a CBC Podcast. You are listening to Season 2 of Someone Knows Something from CBC Radio. Previously on SKS. I'm here in a western Canadian city on the way to speak to Gwen, who was with Michael Lavoie for many years and had three children with him. I'm just pulling in here now, go into her place of work and see if Gwen can speak to me.

You're Gwen, right? Yes. Okay, I'm David. I work for CBC, and I'm working with Odette Fisher. She couldn't come out. Yep, yep. I'm sorry. When I mentioned Odette's name, she looked like she had seen a ghost and clutched her chest, and I could almost see her having a heart attack. I feel awful for that, but on the other hand,

my job is to find out what happened to Cheryl, and maybe she'll read the note and decide to help. This is Episode 8, Gwen. Gwen. Wind chimes made of little glass angels, and they're hanging over Odette's porch. I've paused here before knocking to listen to the crystalline ring their wings make as they swirl and come together in the fresh early autumn breeze. I don't believe in angels, but I like the sound of them. I'll shut this off. Would you like a coffee? I've got everything ready for a coffee.

Sure. Today is the day that Odette and I will finally be able to speak to Gwen, Michael Lavoie's former partner of several years. A call has been set up over Odette's new Facebook connection. I think Gwen's going to help. Oh, Gwen just got back to you. So what do you want to say to her, I guess? Just say I got your message, and I'll talk to you at 5, you know, after 5.

Okay, so you just say, okay. No, you do it. You want me to type because I type faster? Yes. Okay, so it's okay. What's your instinct? What do you think, if she calls, what do you think you should do in the call? No, I'm just going to ask how she's been keeping

and does she enjoy the move that she did. Yeah, so that sounds great. Another question I want to ask her is, has she seen Mike often after this incident? Did he keep in touch with the girls? But I'll ask a few questions gradually, you know. It might not be all of it today, but probably, you know, down the road. And now I'm gonna ask her, has she seen Mike's mother?

Has the girl seen her, you know? And do they keep in touch with her? And I'll ask her, you know, do they keep in touch with her? And I'll ask her, is it wise? You know, if I was to go and see her, try to talk to her. Yeah, I would be interested in that too, for sure. I'm watching the computer screen and notice that Odette's reply message to Gwen has just been read. She just saw it. She just saw it.

She just saw it? Yeah, it just says seen here. So something's going to happen here, I think. Let's see. Oh, she's typing. See? That means she's typing. Okay.

It's close to 5 o'clock now, and Odette is getting nervous. My heart is just beating. Okay. Okay. So let's just wait a sec. You alright? Yeah, I'm fine. Everybody ready to go?

So we're sitting here waiting for Gwen to call, and this will be the first time you've spoken to her. How long? Almost 19 years. The year would be 18 years, Gwen 19. Before that, about 18 and a half years. It's a long time. I'm sure she's just as stressed out about it as you are. I'm sure she's just as nervous too, yeah.

Yeah. Hello? Hi. Who's this? This is Gwen. Gwen, how are you? Good, how are you? It's been a long time.

We didn't talk, eh? I know. It kind of feels like it's been a long time coming. Oh my God. But I've been so busy with my job too, eh? Yeah. There's a bit of small talk at the beginning. Odette seems hesitant to get into Cheryl's disappearance. You're retired? I'm retired, yeah. I'm going to be 70 years old on Tuesday. Oh. get into Cheryl's disappearance. I'm just wondering how the girls is doing. Oh, so different. Yeah, I can imagine.

But eventually the question comes out. Gwen, do you remember about the time when Cheryl went and disappeared? I do, very well. Okay. I don't know if you know this Odette, but my grandmother died the same day Cheryl went missing. So it was quite a time. The second of January, yeah. On January 2nd, that's when your grandmother died?

Yeah. Yeah, the same day. Oh. Does Michelle remember when... Oh, no. God, I don't know what to say, my dear. Odette, it's okay. Just breathe. The moment has suddenly piled up on Odette and become a bit much. She leans back from the speakerphone and signals me with her hand to jump in while she gathers herself. I have a question about Michael Lavoie's timing on the Friday night of January 2nd.

So the timing of that, what time did he pick them up, the kids up on Friday night? You know what, I don't remember the exact time. But it was in the evening? Yeah, it was in the evening. Okay, okay. Yeah. And then the girls went with him. What happened then? He picked them up and they went?

From what I understand, he took them to his mother's for the night. And then what did he do with them Saturday? They stopped at the apartment. I believe the kids waited in the car. And he went up. I don't even remember how long he had them. Michael Lavoie left the girls at his mother Pat's place on the evening of Friday, January 2, 1998.

Lavoie would take his children to his mother's place from time to time, but according to information I've received from Gwen, Lavoie returned to pick up his children from Pat's later the next day, on Saturday afternoon. And according to Gwen, this timing was not normal. Then, and again, this is something Gwen says the girls told her about their experiences 18 years ago. Michael took them to a Tim Hortons parking lot.

There, the girls remember Michael telling them a story about an axe murderer. It's an odd detail and unfortunately nothing more is known about this alleged story right now. Thereafter, the girls say, Lavoie drove them to 851 Queenston and told them to wait in the car for a while. He went into the apartment

building, then came out a while later to take them inside and up into the apartment building then came out a while later to take them inside and up to the apartment. Interesting. Okay and then on Sunday he brought them back to you? Yes. And do you know what time you would would have done that? It would have probably been about seven o'clock in the evening I believe. I was actually he wanted to talk to me. I was in the tub trying to get some quiet time because of everything that was going on with my grandmother. So I didn't even get to talk to him. He talked to my mother. And what was his behavior like when he picked up the kids on Friday? He actually, that's when he told me about his and Cheryl's engagement. I didn't know about

it until then. And I asked where she was. I wanted to see the ring. And he said she was at work. Oh, he said she was at work. What did you make of the story that Mike had told the police and the public, I guess, which was slightly different than what he told you, that he had dropped her off at the Concord Hotel to dance. Well, he had told me that he had dropped her off at work, which at the time, I know I was thinking Tim Hortons. Right. And I did know or had heard that Cheryl had danced before. So, like I said, back then, I wasn't, back then I wasn't the brightest.

Wasn't the brightest. I didn't really think anything of it. And there was actually a girl in my complex that worked there. So I went and asked her to, you know, fish around for something. And she said that Cheryl had never worked there. Cheryl had never worked at the Concord? Yeah. Was it different for him to come on his own or did he usually come with Cheryl to pick up your kids? Both. Okay. Most of the time I believe Cheryl would have been with him. I see. Okay.

Interesting. And you would let him have the children alone as well? Like with or without Cheryl? It didn't really matter? No. At that time we were getting along fine and Cheryl was great. So I had no problem letting big children go with him or him if you know he was going home to Cheryl right right right what can you tell me about Cheryl you knew her and you mentioned some things in the web or on Facebook but Gwen what do you recall about Cheryl I would just remember being very happy that it wasn't a evil stepmother type situation. She was great with the kids, she was great with me. She'd come back with beautiful hairdos and happy. Michelle talks about her perfume to this day and

dancing around to any man of mine. It was just, it seemed normal. You know what I mean? And I was very relieved by that. She took a lot of pressure off. Gwen met Michael Lavoie in Toronto when she was 16. She says she was a runaway at the time and that they stayed together off and on from the time she was 16 until she was 25.

And what kinds of things did you experience with Mike? Broken cheekbones. It seemed like once a year something would happen where I was physically hurt. To be clear here, Gwen says Michael Lavoie broke her cheekbone. It wasn't an all the time thing. Things would just start to seem to be getting normal and something would happen again. When I was 18 we had gotten into a fight and I went hitchhiking and

his brother got me back by telling me he killed somebody And another, similar incident a few years later, strikes much closer to home. he called and turned himself in for murdering me and the kids. And the police showed up at my door and wanted to see that my kids were alive. So can you just expand on that? Do you know what was the circumstance around him saying that kind of stuff? That was the first time I ever fought back. I had hit him and after that he had taken his TV and I guess what I was told is he fell outside with the TV and bumped his head and next thing you know he's telling a gas station attendant that we're in the trunk. How I found out is his brother Tommy phoned to make sure I was alive, and then a few minutes later, the police showed up at my door.

Wow. Going forward with that incident, what happened with you? Did you bring that up to him and say, what gives? Why would you say that? You know what? At that time, I don't even know how to explain it my upbringing was pretty crazy at that time I didn't even really question it I didn't even understand that I was in an abusive relationship it was just another thing

in a long string of things that happened it sounds ridiculous I know but I just wasn't educated. Right. And abuse was just a normal part of life. The incident Gwen is talking about happened in January 1995. Michael Lavoie was charged with public mischief

after falsely telling an employee at a gas station and then Hamilton police that he had killed his wife and children. According to reports, Lavoie was then taken to St. Joseph's Hospital for psychiatric assessment. The charges were later withdrawn. This particular incident happened when I was 25. It was right before him and Cheryl got together. It wasn't long before that? No, and I think they may have already even been seeing

each other. I just didn't know about it yet. No kidding. So, that's interesting. What's your understanding, Gwen, of when the timing is of Cheryl getting together with Mike? Well, I ended things with Mike in October 95, I believe it was. And they were together, I'm sure, probably within six months of that. To my knowledge, it might have been before he was always going to Hamilton. And when Mike started seeing Cheryl, I lived in Stratford. Stratford, okay. The Downey Street address, right? That's on the insurance forms, was this Downey Street address in Stratford. Is that...

Downey Street address. Yeah, is that where you lived? No. Oh, okay, that's interesting then. So I wonder who lived at the Downey Street address because that's where the cars were insured. That's where Cheryl's car and his van were insured in. Downey Street. Oh my, I'm wondering. Yeah, I didn't even know that Mike had friends in Stratford, to be honest with you. Okay. I don't know who that would have been. Do you think that if Mike had something to do with Cheryl's disappearance, he would have told somebody else about it? Um, I've

often wondered about his brothers. There was one guy at Stratford that he worked with that I've wondered about, and I don he worked with that I've wondered about, and I don't even know why I've wondered about him, but I have. What was the guy in Stratford's name? I don't remember. They worked together at a concrete company. Do you know the name of the concrete company? I don't. When Mike worked at that concrete company was around the time he started fantasizing about murdering me and told me about it.

And I've told the police that already, that I've wondered if that company, that guy, came into play at all. He's been pretty serious, man, at least. Oh, hey there. I'm Andrew Fung, and I want to tell you about my new series with Via Rail. Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard Via Rail's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze. No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore.

From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences. For your next trip, do yourself a favor. Skip traffic and take Via Rail. Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. At Desjardins, we speak business. We speak equipment modernization. We're fluent in data digitization and expansion into foreign markets. And we can talk all day about streamlining manufacturing processes.

Because at Desjardins Business, we speak the same language you do. Business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business. Fantasizing about murdering Gwen. This is something I cannot verify. What was the guy's name? I wish I could remember.

I'm wondering if it was either Mark or Mark, because for some reason I think he had the same name as one of his brothers, Steve maybe. Yeah, I'm wondering if his name was Steve, because I always, I've met this guy like once or twice. I know he had dark brown curly hair, and I think he had the same name as one of his brothers. I'm thinking it was Steve. Hopefully I can find this friend that Gwen is referring to, but it's hard to know where to start on that. Maybe a listener can help. Someone who worked with Mike in concrete

in or around the town of Stratford, an area known for concrete production. Yes. Yeah, sorry it took so long to, you know, to keep in touch with you. It's just that, you know, it's been quite hectic for a while, eh? Yeah, and I know it's hard.

You don't know if you should even try, or you just don't know what to do, right? That's it, yeah. Yeah. This isn't the first time Gwen has cooperated in the investigation into Cheryl's disappearance. Retired Hamilton detective Don Forgan interviewed Gwen 19 years ago on Wednesday, January 7, 1998, just five days after Cheryl disappeared. I meet Forgan in yet another parking lot to hear what Gwen said back then. We'll return for more of our phone call later.

So tell me in your own words then what you found out about the conversations that you had with Gwen on, I think this was the 7th you interviewed Gwen, after Cheryl disappeared. That's right, I took a statement from her. Forgan's come with a summary of what Gwen told him back in 1998. Gwen said that Lavoie had the children from December 23rd to the 26th. So over Christmas? Over Christmas, yeah. Michael and Cheryl spent Christmas together with the girls.

Forgan continues with Gwen's interview. She said that on Friday, January the 2nd, Mike had picked the kids up between 7 and 7.30, and he told Gwen about the proposal on TV. Gwen was excited to hear this news and wanted to see Cheryl's ring, so she asked where Cheryl was. She asked where Cheryl was, and Lavoie told her that Cheryl was working. Mike Lavoie dropped the kids back off at 6 or 7 o'clock on Sunday, January the 4th, and Gwen said that that was earlier than usual.

And Gwen asked her daughter, Michelle, if Daddy told her the good news, and Michelle said that Cheryl was missing and they hadn't seen her all weekend. Nine-year-old Michelle knew that Cheryl was missing by the time she was returned to Gwen on Sunday around 6 or 7 p.m., but Lavoie never reported Cheryl missing. The next day, Monday, after Odette reported Cheryl missing to police, it is known that Lavoie went to Niagara strip clubs with Cheryl's picture, but he also went back to Chippewa to see Gwen and his kids. And on Monday, January the 5th, Gwen was out walking in Chippewa,

and Mike Lavoie pulled up. He was driving the white Buick of Cheryl's. Gwen got in the car. She said that Mike Lavoie was upset and she wasn't sure if he was angry or if he was hurt. And he said that they hadn't found Cheryl yet. He also said that Cheryl had been fired from her job at Tim Hortons. He also said that they received a welfare check and Cheryl had wanted to go to the bingo. He also said that Cheryl and him had had a fight, and Cheryl told Lavoie that she was going to go get her own money and she was going to go dancing. On the Friday before Cheryl was reported missing, Lavoie says to Gwen that Cheryl is at work. On Monday, after Cheryl was reported missing,

a different version of events is related to Gwen. The Monday version is more in line with the story Lavoie told Odette on Sunday night. But for Gwen, he adds that Cheryl was fired from Tim Hortons, and details about bingo and a fight between him and Cheryl. We know from Chrissy Cowley that Sammy Valeri left a message for Cheryl firing her on the morning of January 1st, 1998. And we know from Odette that only Cheryl had the code for the answering machine. So either Cheryl told Michael she'd been fired

or he got the message himself somehow. But why choose to tell Gwen about the firing now? Did it have something to do with the argument he says he had with Cheryl? Any idea what the fight was about? Did you get a sense? No. Okay. Okay, Gwen said that, and this is Monday, January the 5th, that when he came to pick the kids up on the Friday, he said that Cheryl was sleeping. That's why she wasn't there.

Meaning she was asleep in Hamilton, I'm assuming? Like, not in the car, obviously? That's what the inference was, yeah. But then there was another one where he says that she was working. That's on the Friday. So on Friday he says she's working. And then on Monday he said she had been sleeping. Okay, interesting. Two different stories for Gwen, then. Okay. Mike Lavoie had said to Gwen that Cheryl's mom, her sister, and him were supposed to go down to Niagara and check out the bars together.

And Odette's since confirmed that that was untrue. Odette says there was never any plan at the time to go with mike to look for cheryl in the niagara bars or anywhere else uh lavoie drove gwen home when they got there he went up and saw the kids on the front step michelle asked lavoie if he had found cheryl yet and gwen wasn't able to hear what his reply was. Later, Michelle told Gwen that Daddy and Cheryl had broken up, and that Daddy said that it was for good this time. On the front step, he hugged and kissed the girls and told them that he loved them,

and he started to cry. Gwen told him that he needed to get his life together. Lavoie grabbed Gwen and said that he loved her and gave a hundred dollars. He said it was for the kids. Gwen later said that he never gave her money for the kids. Gwen was concerned that he was suicidal and said something to the effect of, don't pull any fast ones on me tonight. And Lavoie was Gwen on the Monday, he eventually would make his way back to his mother Pat's place, and thereafter to Casinorama, the Cheers bar, and then the storage locker.

Gwen's information on the phone now, and in her interview with police back then, reveals points on the case timeline, Michael Lavoie's state of mind, and also that Lavoie told different versions about where Cheryl was on Friday, January 2nd. We also know that Michael Lavoie has denied having anything to do with the disappearance of Cheryl Shepard.

I return to the phone call with Gwen. She's turned to talking about her life since Cheryl disappeared and since she decided to take her family out west. For a long time it was hell. The kids just seemed to get sicker and sicker for a long time there. I had to actually learn to put special holes on them because they would just start screaming like dreams you would not believe. If something was moved in the house, they couldn't shower alone or bath alone for years. What do you think has led to that?

Like, what's the precursor to that? I have a lot of assumptions. I'm making a lot of assumptions. For the year that we stayed in Ontario after all this happened, when we stayed with my dad, they didn't seem too bad. Like they were, they were messed up. Don't get me wrong, but they could have a bath, have a shower. Michelle would scream if she heard change jingling.

She would just start screaming. But it wasn't until we moved that the screaming and the terrors got really, really bad. Michelle has been convinced, she's convinced she knows something that could help but she has racked her brains, had counseling drove herself stupid got tattoos trying to come to terms with all this because she was with

him of course right over that weekend right? have you ever broached the topic with Mike? Did you ever say, look, did you have something to do with Cheryl disappearing? Before I moved away, I tried to bring it up several times, and he just said his lawyer told him not to talk about it. Interesting.

Even as far as Michelle one time told me she could see Cheryl, and I told Mike about that, Interesting. That's all he had to say about it. Like she had kind of a dream or something about her? time Michelle felt like she saw Cheryl. She would go pitch white and just stick because she said she saw her. Interesting. You know what? The girls were so close to Cheryl. Yes. Gwen is saying that Michelle would have visions of seeing Cheryl. And have your kids ever asked Michael anything about it? Um, I believe they did.

When he first came out, nothing came of it. It didn't help. At that time, Michelle was still very hurt, and it was a useless question. Right. Pretty much. Do you think your kids, or at least Michelle, thinks that he had something to do with it? I know Michelle felt that way for a very long time.

Right. And it must be difficult to keep holding on to that, you know? It must be hard to, you know, there's a certain point where you have to kind of continue your life right with Michelle it was every year around that time she would find herself just in unbearable pain and and throughout the year too but particularly around that time her whole life life would crumble. And she just really wanted to get it together for her daughter. Right. To some degree, she has.

She still has Cheryl's picture up. I don't know if you remember, Odette, but you brought teddy bears. Yeah. Odette brought teddy bears to Gwen's daughters shortly after Cheryl disappeared, and one of Gwen's younger daughters still has hers. It's wrapped in plastic because it's falling apart. Oh. But yeah, she named it Ted Wobare.

Oh. The storage locker business, did you ever talk to him or did he ever talk to you about that whole incident in the storage locker? Um, no. It's so strange because he brought all the kids stuff to me on the Monday. All the kids toys from the apartment. And I just could tell by the way he was acting that he was suicidal and I just said don't do this to me I'm I'm burying my grandmother tonight and it was the next day that he did that I believe it was a while after that before I seen him. I think he was hospitalized. Right. From what I understand.

And I mostly dealt with his mom for the next little while. And what was she like? What's Pat like? I am so torn. Pat was like my mother from the time I was 16. Wow. She's hardcore. She's a bit of a...

It's hard to explain. She loves her son. I mean, our dad's already spoken to her, but... Oh, really? Good for you. Yeah, she came to my house. Wow. She seen when I had to give up my apartment for 10 days,

the police did, they moved in, they did forensic tests in the house, and what they find on the wall. Here Odette breaks down when trying to tell Gwen about the circle she saw on the wall in the apartment after police finished their forensic examination. It was, um... Peter Tom has said that no substantial blood was found in the apartment,

but the mention of the circles on the wall triggers a memory in Gwen. It's that why I remember, I remember Michelle said the police asked them if they ever had a grease fight or a food fight or, and I thought that was strange and I felt like they must have found something in that apartment. Is it possible that from this question put to Michelle about food or grease fights that something was thrown in the apartment? Something that hit the wall? And the relationship Mike has with your girls now? Instagram, baby. He's here right now. He's with your girls now? Since the grandbaby, he's here right now. You now?

Not me, no. He's never around me. Okay, okay. He is with the girls right now. I never see him, ever. I never will. The girls have all been off and on with it. Since the grandbabies.

It's been more steady. And do you have any issues with your relationship with Mike? Do you see that he could have had something to do with Cheryl's disappearance? Yes. Yes. Looking back on mine and his relationship there is no doubt in my mind i always thought it was probably he went too far i don't like ever think he purposely set out to do that. Not that it matters. Gone is gone. But I believe he went too far.

And it was just by luck that it was, and I felt guilty about that to this day. I don't know how it was Cheryl and not me. I'm stunned by Gwen's matter-of-factness here. Her life with Michael, she says, was violent, in an on-and-off relationship that spanned several years. And her life and the lives of her daughters after leaving Michael has been deeply affected by that time. And it seems only recent, in the last few years from what I can gather that

Michael has started to reach out more to his family. in touch and I'll send you some pictures and you tell the girls I said hi you know when you talk to them when he's not there okay absolutely yeah they won't call me when he's around so I won't hear yeah okay then thank you so much you're welcome oh dad okay okay okay take care bye-bye she's obviously willing to help. Oh, is she ever. I wish I would have went down, but I'd like to meet her in person. Oh, my God, yeah. Yeah, that would be a big thing. You satisfied with that?

Yeah. Good. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's a lot. But what about this guy, Steve? He worked with him. Well, that's what she thinks, that there's another guy named Steve at the cement factory or plant or cement business that might have some information. So I need to find out who that Steve would be.

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting that the grease fight that she was talking about, because that could equal the spots on the wall, right? So something else hit the wall other than blood, maybe. Spattered. Odette asked her partner Ron to sit with her for support during the call, and up to now, he's been silent. He leans forward in his easy chair. The interesting thing is with that little kid.

Michelle, yeah. Why does she have any dreams? It's playing on her mind because Cheryl has not been shown and not knowing what happened to her. That I could understand that. A child would have nightmare. Be interested to talk to Michelle, but I'm not going to push that. Well, she's got a family right now

and that would be hard for Michelle. That would be very hard. Yeah, yeah, and I don't want to do that. Okay, well, let's call it a day and we can ruminate over this and talk about it another time. But would be very hard. Yeah, yeah, and I don't want to do that. Okay, well, let's call it a day, and we can ruminate over this and talk about it another time, but I thank you very much. I think it was very successful. Good work. I am pleased. I am pleased what I heard. Well, we'll see what we can prove and what we cannot prove.

Gwen's stories about life with Michael include allegations of psychological and physical violence and the aftermath of it. Police have said that the incidents Gwen described about the broken cheek and the false utterance that Michael made about killing his family did happen. If Michael behaved this way in his relationship with Gwen, could he have also done so during his time with Cheryl? It's virtually impossible to know how their time together actually went, except through eyewitnesses. And I've found some of those people to talk to. People who knew Michael and Cheryl and saw them together. But we'll also examine in detail

another source where we can actually see and hear Michael and Cheryl's relationship with our own eyes and ears. I can't believe this! The marriage proposal. The answer was yes! We have a marriage! The marriage proposal. The answer was yes! We have a marriage!

You have been listening to Episode 8. Gwen. Visit cbc.ca slash sks for more photos, articles, and videos about the case. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen and mixed by Cecil Fernandez. The series is also produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kampf, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Our theme music is by Bob Wiseman, with vocals by Mary Margaret O'Hara and Jess Reimer. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.