Someone Knows Something - S2 Episode 9: The Appearance of Force

Episode Date: January 23, 2017

David takes a closer look at the New Year's Eve proposal video with a forensic psychologist and the TV host who was there that night. We also hear from people who say they witnessed violence between Michael and Sheryl first hand. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season2/someone-knows-something-season-2-sheryl-sheppard-transcript-listen-1.3846237

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Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. This is a CBC Podcast. The following episode contains graphic language. Listener discretion is advised. You are listening to Season 2 of Someone Knows Something from CBC Radio. Previously on SKS. I said, what happened?

She said, the police just left. She said, Mike started an argument. He grabbed her throat and it was scratched really bad here. It was bleeding. Gerald and Sharon Davidson, they lived in the same building. They ran into Lavoie in the underground parking again. And he had bags of clothing. And what kinds of things did you experience with Mike? Broken cheekbones.

It seemed like once a year, something would happen where I was physically hurt. I believe he went too far. I don't know how it was Cheryl and not me. This is Episode 9, The Appearance of Force. Just arriving at Mike Richards' place here. Mike Richards was the host of the New Year's Eve bash

where Michael Lavoie proposed marriage to Cheryl Shepard. The answer was yes! I want to examine the December 31st, 1997 New Year's Eve marriage proposal between Michael Lavoie and Cheryl Shepherd a little more closely and Mike Richards is a good place to start. He's in the video standing right next to Cheryl and Michael. Does Richards remember anything specific about that evening? And what secrets, if any, might

this video hold? Hi, how you doing? You're the same guy in the video. Ready for my close-up. Mike's the same guy, but now with thinner hair, a bronzy tan, and a thicker waistline. But he still projects the aura of TV host. He invites me into his backyard, and we sit on lawn chairs next to his swimming pool.

My name is Mike Richards. I work for TSN 1050. Back in 1997, I worked on a show with Jeff Lumby on Y95 in Hamilton. And so they wanted to do this satellite New Year's Eve show that was going to be broadcast via satellite, was my understanding. The person I was seeing at the time, because I was separated, I decided, like a lot of unstable men, to put her on camera. She had no broadcast background whatsoever.

And the best part of this, it was all going to be live. Richard's girlfriend Tracy was the co-host that night, and she can at certain moments be seen with a microphone and heard loudly describing the Lavoie Shepherd proposal. Tracy had never been on camera before, and Richard's was worried about how drunk everybody was getting. The weird thing was they left me totally unprotected, and I ended up being like a Chippendales dancer on free rye night.

And they were grabbing me, molesting me, literally, both men and women. It just got so weird. At one point, I remember when they go to the wide shot, I'm screaming, I said, they're grabbing my nipples. Hamilton's a blue-collar city, and it's one of the reasons why I love it, and have been a Hamilton Tiger Cat fan since the moment I was born. So I get the nature of what is fun for them. It's not a Harvard high tea club.

So for Mike Richards, the evening was as surreal as it appears now, 19 years later. The moment Mike Lavoie proposes to Cheryl Shepard. People in party hats, holding drinks, stumble through the scene or try to be part of it, performing for the camera. Mike Richards says he had never seen Shepard or Lavoie before or after that moment. So would they have just been pulled to you by an associate producer or did you just find them? No, no, they'd been brought to a spot for the shooters, for the camera, to make sure that you were in the right

place at the right time to get the right shot. Whatever was going to happen live was going to happen and there was nothing to stop it. There was no delay. It was live. So to your knowledge, Michael Lavoie proposed for the first time to Cheryl Shepard on that show in front of you. Wasn't a rehearsed act? That was not a rehearsed act. Wasn't rehearsed. No. The only thing that would have been prepared was the fact that that was going to happen with those couples. Right. From what I understand,

there was more than one that night. Until we called you, did you know that she had disappeared? No, because that name wouldn't have meant a thing to me. Okay. Not at that moment. Okay, interesting. So the police never came to speak to you?

Never. No. No. I was never involved in any police investigation. I've never been a part of this. That was 1997, and this is jogging my memory, but I know for fact, 100% clarity, that I was never approached by any police services. At first, I'm surprised that Mike Richards had never heard about Cheryl's disappearance prior to being contacted by us, but he goes on to tell me that he was based out of Toronto at the time.

I'd like to see if the video jogs Mike's memory about anything. It's been over 19 years now. Okay, so let's have you just sit and watch it next to me here. I don't know if you can see the screen even. How's that? Oh, I can see it. Okay, good. This is going to be weird.

Let's not stop it or talk during the first one, and then you can start and stop and tell me what you think. So here we go. If I tell you to don't do this to me, okay, come on back. That's a little better. You're in great bed. What's your name here? Yeah, put the drink down. Thank you very much. Very little better. What's your name? Put the drink down.

Thank you very much. What's your name? Mike. Your name is Mike LaVoy. The video starts and Mike Richards is glued to the screen from beginning to end. Apparently Mike has a very, very important question to ask this young lady, or this young lady. In 1998, I'd like to ask you to mirror me, Cheryl. Do you remember any of that?

Oh, I remember him. I remember him. Yes, I do. She looked like so many of, I mean, the way that 1997, even the hairstyles and how they looked. But I do remember him. That is remarkable. You know what? As this jogs your memory, looking at that moment, seeing that couple.

But to say that I remember a disappearance a short time later, it still does not register with me, strangely enough. But you remember him. Oh, yeah. What do you remember about him? Well, I remember he had a look of not an easy life. Like a lot of people in that area, as I said. You know, I've, you know, my mom is from that area originally. And I've been going to Hamilton since I was born.

And there are parts of that area that live a tougher, harder life than others. And economically, it can get crunched pretty good. And so there are guys who look like they have lived a tougher life just by appearance. And then she was hammered. Like I do recall that she was excited, but alcohol was just pouring this night. Right.

It just was that kind of night where, as they said, in the hammer they were going to let it go. This was a big event for them. This was a big night for a lot of people. So you say you remember Michael. Did he speak to you afterwards? Do you remember sort of the whole proposal? No, because as soon as those shots were done,

then they would be moving us during the video to the next spot, to the next scheduled break because this was going live this was live television so once that was done on to the next spot i wouldn't have spoken any words to those people ever again ever again she's obviously inebriated to begin with so I'm sure it seemed a little surreal for a starter then he moves in for that Ron Jeremy like moment where you know there's all of a sudden flickering tongues and you know that goes on for a longer period of time than I would have thought. And she's still stunned. Like, she's obviously, again, the combination of alcohol and by at least looking back at this now, you know, almost 20 years later,

that she seems almost ill-prepared for. That would be my take, just looking at this as an outside observer watching a 20-year-old video, is that she is stunned by this. If she was waiting for this to be her magical moment, the moment it comes out of her mouth, she would have screamed, yes, that's what happens. That's what happens.

She would have lunged at him. I mean, that's your hallmark moment. I love you, marry me. Of course I will. Boom. This was I want you to marry me, and people are like, oh my god, and then she's just frozen by the whole thing.

That's what it looked like to me. Let's see. We watch a few moments from the video one more time, and I encourage listeners to do so, too, on the SKS website. He's the one that's happy. She's out of it. Look at it. Just overwhelmed in the moment how odd to see that all these years later.

But see, you know, a kiss like that, though, at least to me just looking at it, is one of domination and sort of ownership, like a victory, like he won something there. That wasn't a romantic kiss necessarily. Now, I joked about it at the time, because I have to, it's live television, you have to say something. And now it's turned into a soft porn film. But that... It's not a warm embrace.

Yeah, very odd. And as I said, upon seeing this now, I do remember him. But I do not remember the actual news of this probably that would come out, what, days later? Richard's take on Mike and Cheryl's body language in the video leads me to wonder if his perception may be tweaked because he knew before watching that Cheryl would disappear less than 48 hours later. It's important to note here that Michael Lavoie denies having anything to do with Cheryl's disappearance,

and I hope that he will agree to talk to me. He may have important clues about the last time he says he saw Cheryl. In the meantime, I want to consult with someone who doesn't know a single detail about the case, an expert in analyzing body language. Oh, hey David. Hey Stephen, how's it going? Not too bad, long time no talk. Stephen Porter is a British Columbia-based forensic psychologist who specializes in reading micro-expressions from someone's behavior,

including face or body, in tandem with their word choices to determine whether someone is being truthful. In other words, Porter is a human lie detector. It's a phone call, but I've met Porter before. He seems younger than he is and has thick, dark hair and a penetrating gaze. Previous to this call and before we started to air Season 2, I asked him to take a look at the short New Year's Eve segment featuring Cheryl and Michael without telling him anything about them or the case.

Porter also promised not to look up any information online or elsewhere. I simply ask for his opinions on the couple in the video. What I propose to do is to basically go through chronologically my observations of the video and then sort of summarize my impressions at the end.

Does that sound good? Okay, that's great. So actually, I've watched this thing probably ten times so far and spent a couple of hours analyzing it yesterday and this morning. So, yeah, I have absolutely no idea about the backstory. I didn't, you know, I'm glad you took that approach. I had no preconceptions. It was very mysterious what you even wanted me to be looking at.

So anyway, this is some of my observations of this very interesting clip. I've watched this video many times myself and made my own observations, but Stephen Porter goes way beyond that with virtually a frame-by-frame timed breakdown of the action. So at 28 seconds, I note that Mike makes a half-smirk bit of contempt while he's looking into the camera. At 32 seconds, he grasps her neck tightly with a strange finger grasp. His smile is not real. She seems to be pulling back from him at that point.

He almost looks wary about him. He says, marry me, Cheryl, at 35 seconds. Marry me, Cheryl. She looks extremely intoxicated and put on the spot, quote unquote. 42 seconds, he starts to kiss her. She seems hesitant. He le 42 seconds he starts to kiss her she seems hesitant he leans in and starts to kiss her aggressively and now it's turned into a soft porn film 48 seconds he looks into the camera with an aggressive this is mike looks into the camera with an aggressive possessive stance almost a look of revenge or quote unquote she's mine like he's sending a message to somebody

and he does that again at 51 seconds there's actually there's three distinct instances where he looks into the camera and he's got this what i call aggressive glare possessive stare cheryl never does say yes until the host asks her and and she says, Yes, then, in an almost sad or reticent tone, like she's playing along. She doesn't look at Mike when she says yes. When she does look at him, Mike looks almost angry or skeptical, as if he doesn't really quite believe it. Another note, Cheryl looks drunk or dazed or out of it the whole time. Some kind of tattoo or injury on her right shoulder, I just noticed.

At 55 seconds when she says, quote-unquote, yes, he lifts his arm in a victory and hoots. 56, 57 seconds, he looks again directly into the camera before looking at Cheryl. It struck me as a sign that he was communicating with somebody else who might be watching or is communicating to the world that he kind of owns this woman. At 57 seconds, he again leans over her to kiss her and she leans back, back away from him. 58 seconds, she's looking at him but doesn't seem as happy as somebody who just said yes to a proposal. He's looking at her kind of creepily, possessively.

She continues to hold a drink in her right hand the whole time, possibly to avoid having to embrace him. At 1.24 to 1.30, she never looks at Mike, which I found odd. 1.28, she's smiling, but she looks more like a deer in the headlights, almost like a fearful smile. 1.28, Mike glares into the camera with a weird smirk. 138, it appears that she may have two engagement rings on her. So those were my specific observations,

my general observations relating to Mike and Cheryl. I wrote down Mike is not only proposing to Cheryl, but he's communicating possession or ownership of Cheryl to somebody else specifically who may be watching or just to the world in general. He's not really as happy as much as he seems victorious. So to sort of summarize the whole thing, I feel like there's a whole lot more going on than a man just proposing to a woman who he genuinely loves, and a whole lot more going on with her than a woman who's happily saying yes to the proposal, almost like she's afraid of something.

So that's it. Porter's observations, while striking and conducted without any prior knowledge of the case, are not something that necessarily proves anything. Rewatching the video with Porter's observations in mind tends to bring them forward. I notice Cheryl leaning away instead of leaning in, and she barely looks at Michael after he proposes. And Michael does look straight into the camera.

Is there something going on in this video under the surface? I need to find someone who actually saw Michael and Cheryl live in person with their own eyes outside of a drunken party in daily life. Oh, hey there. Are you Bill? Ooh, hello. I've approached Bill Branton, Pamela's father. I met Pamela at the propane tanks in Episode 3. According to her, Bill used to be a member of the Red Devils Biker Club,

founded here in Hamilton in 1948, but he retired many years ago. Bill knew Cheryl when she was younger, and his twin daughters, Pamela and Paula Paula were two of Cheryl's closest friends. So far I've spoken to Pamela but her sister Paula has been more elusive. Paula used to dance with Cheryl and, I think, knew her the best of anyone. But she's reticent to talk. I'm hoping that she'll be here today. Hi, I'm Dave. I'm Dave Ridge and I work for CBC Radio.

And I'm doing a doc about Cheryl Shepard. And, you know, anybody that has any information at all can really help. I don't know much about Cheryl, but I know she was standing around with Paula all the time. But she's working. So you knew Cheryl. I knew her. Yeah. And when did you meet her? Oh, that's got to be 92, 93, 94. And when this happened,

did you have any sort of thoughts going through your head about anything other than... No, I just thought she just took off somewhere. My daughter keeps talking about it all the time. She might know something. I don't know. That's great. Well, thanks very much. Sorry to bug you on a nice windy day.

It's supposed to rain a bit later. Okay. No luck here, but in the process of looking for Paula, I eventually come into contact with her daughter, whose name is Kara. Kara, whom I have met only on the phone, is now in her mid-20s, went to university for anthropology and gender studies. And Kara knew Cheryl, too.

Hello. Hello. Oh, hi, Kara. Yes. So thanks so much for calling. To start from the top, how did you know Cheryl? I knew Cheryl because she was basically like my aunt. She was always like my aunt. She was always with

my mom. I remember my mom would drop us off with my Aunt Pam, and those two would be together all the time. Kara Branton was just a couple of months shy of her seventh birthday when Cheryl went missing, and she has some very fond memories of Cheryl at that time. Cheryl was the most loving person. She treated myself, my siblings, like we were her own children. I remember her always coming and hugging us, so happy to see us. She just was the biggest lover, and she just was always there bringing us, you know, little gifts, always saying, come sleep over. And I remember, you know, Cheryl always taking me out. My brother and I, she'd bring us to Tim Hortons all the time, get us each a bottle of

peach juice and a pack of 10 Timbits. And we'd share that in the back of a convertible. I think it was, I don't know, it was my mom's convertible, somebody's convertible, but we were always there and the happiest kids ever. She was always smiling. She was always so excited. She was always so positive. But it's a bit of a different story when Kara turns to her memories of Michael Lavoie.

I have witnessed him very angry. I was sleeping at her house, I remember, one evening. And it was the winter time and I was in the living room and watching TV. And they were in the kitchen which was attached to the living room area. And they were yelling about something. I could tell that Cheryl was trying to kind of hide away from me and, you know, keep their voices down. He was raising his voice. And I remember kind of peeking out in the middle, like corner of my eye, like a little child would do when they're curious. And I remember seeing him, you know, with this like angry look in his face and her back was away from me. So I was,

I could only see her back. And I just remember him slapping her in the face. And she yelled something at him. She turned around. She looked at me. She said, let's go in the bedroom. And then I just was so scared, and I was looking at him, and he had turned away. And I went into the bedroom, and I remember shaking.

She started, you know, laughing kind of. It looked like her tears, like her eyes, like she was sad or something. And I'd never seen Cheryl that way. And I was scared because I had never seen her scared or upset. It was always happy. And she tried to, you know, put on a smile and, oh, it's okay. Don't worry. It's nothing.

It's okay. Don't worry, Kara. It's okay. And then she left the room and then there was more talking, yelling, and then it kind of all subsided. And I don't know if he left or what happened, but I stayed in the bedroom and continued watching TV. And I remember always feeling uncomfortable around him. And I never grew up with a father, so I never had that really comfortable feeling around a like an older man as a young girl so to see that and later on I saw my mom be abused by men so it just like it was scary

to me and it it triggered something in me that you know like I never trusted men and and this whole idea of you know this hairy scary man and i remember her coming in and still smiling her eyes were watering but she was still smiling like it's okay carol don't worry it's okay it's like on her arm i remember seeing you know a couple of bruises but at the time that i didn't correlate anything because i didn't think anything of it you know it's right well you're only seven so you know you got an adult saying it's okay so you know it's hard to i remember that this it was cold outside and it was right before she had disappeared in the months before i remember going home and telling my mom about this incident like um you know asking her why was she upset and And I remember my mom saying, well, that's why she has bruises on the phone, when she was on the phone.

Well, that's why she's got bruises. That's why she's got bruises. Even Kara was telling me last night. Kara says that the bruises she saw on Cheryl were something she remembers her mom discussing with Cheryl on more than one occasion. Cheryl had bruises on her, but she would always cover them up. And I remember my mom actually said, what the fuck is this, Cheryl? They swore a lot. What the fuck is this, Cheryl? What's going on?

And Cheryl was very ashamed about it. Very, oh, nothing. Don't worry. And then my mom's like, is it that fucking guy? He's a fucking idiot. Why are you with him? Get rid of him, Cheryl. He's a fucking loser.

And I remember my mom saying, Cheryl never covered up her body or was ashamed around my mom they were always very open with each other there was never anything to hide and then once she started dating him especially you know near the whole end situation my mom realized that Cheryl was hiding a lot and Cheryl became a lot more passive I remember another another time, it was about a week before she went missing around Christmas time and I was supposed to sleep over at Cheryl's house again. And Cheryl came to pick me up, but Mike was in the car. And my mom had walked to the front door so that I could go out and she saw him in the car and she wouldn't let me go. So Cheryl got out of the car and she was like, Paula, let's go. Like the car and she was like Paula let's go like what's going on and my mom's like she's not going my kid's not going with you

not with that guy she's not going around that guy no way I don't fucking trust him and you know there was swearing and I remember crying me like mom please please I want to go I want to go see Cheryl and Cheryl's like oh she'll be fine care is fine with me don't worry you don't trust me come on come on Paula like blah blah and my mom's like nope she's not going care get in the house she's not going and then you know her and cheryl kind of had a little match between each other that i was not going and she did not trust me around him and she refused to let me go and then um shortly after i remember my mom crying and it was this whole situation. I remember my mom saying, this is why I didn't let you go.

Now we don't know where Cheryl is. Wow, and that's a really distinct memory you have. Yeah, and I remember crying. I remember I was in my Pocahontas nightgown. I was just so excited to go over. Regardless of what had happened before I was a little kid you know Cheryl always gave us like Tim Hortons and candy and she was basically like an aunt so and to see my mom say no my mom you know was a very carefree you know go with the flow like

let things happen but she refused to let me go that night because she saw him. And I remember that because my mom never said no to me. My mom never yelled at me. She never said no, ever. And I remember crying and being so upset with her. Oh, hey there. I'm Andrew Fung, and I want to tell you about my new series with Via Rail. Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard Via Rail's new fleet of trains.

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I remember hearing, I guess in retrospect, it's somebody, it was somebody that was ringing their bells, but I remember my mom trying to cheer me up and saying um Kira come outside look at look at and I came outside and I heard bells and she's like that's the reindeer and I was like oh my gosh like really and I just remember the amazement and I'll never forget that because I literally in my heart as a child thought that Santa existed and that, you know, there were sleigh bells and he was out on Christmas or, you know, this time the reindeer were out and I could hear the bells. Wow. So this was definitely Christmas time. Yeah, 100% Christmas time. Yeah, Christmas time. And it would have been,'re saying that christmas before she disappeared yes i know

cheryl cheryl would not be in a situation that like cheryl was a very like okay fuck this i don't want to deal with this you know like i'm not going to put up with this her and my mom were two peas in a pod they were the exact same they were both in this in the sense that you know not going to put up with shit and that's why my mom, I feel, got so upset with her because it was very out of character that she was still with somebody that, you know, was clearly not making her happy. And I remember the whole engagement. It was so furious because my mom was like,

what the fuck? This is not Cheryl. She does not want this. I know Cheryl doesn't want this. And I remember saying, she's smiling, Mom, she's happy. No, she does not want this. I know Cheryl doesn't want this. And I remember saying, she's smiling, Mom, she's happy. No, she does not want this. This is not right. Even though young at the time, Kara's memories of Cheryl and Michael seem fresh and emotionally raw. To her, things were not right between Cheryl and Michael. Okay, thank you.

You too, bye-bye. The call with Kara ends. She says her mother Paula is stubborn and that she won't likely change her mind and speak with me, but I still feel it could happen. It's a rainy day now, and I'm on my way to meet someone else who knew Michael and Cheryl. A man who lived in the same building named Gerald Davidson. The same man, Detective Forgan says, witnessed

Michael with garbage bags sometime after January 1st, sir. How are you? I'm looking for a guy named Gerald Davidson. That's me. It's you. I'm working for CBC Radio on a program that I think you can help me with. What is it? A case of Cheryl Shepard in Hamilton.

Dark hair turning white, stocky with a goatee, glasses, and a confidence underscored by bygone bluish tattoos on both forearms. Davidson says he used to hang out at Satan's Choice and Red Devil's Biker Club houses in the Hamilton area. Now he rents a big yellow-bricked century farmhouse somewhere in southern Ontario. A small group of white Muscovy ducks stroll past searching for grain along the rough driveway I drove in on, and a gleaming Harley is parked in a dilapidated garage.

In! In! Come on! You shut up and get in. Cork, get in there. I step into Davidson's place and am engulfed by a motley crew of dogs. How many dogs does this person have? Oh, we've got three of them. Come on, you little ghoul. Are they still investigating, Cheryl?

Well, you know, it's been almost two decades, right? Davidson sinks down into a broad-cushioned, fold-out love seat in front of me, and his dogs settle down on him. One's a chihuahua named Corky, and he sits gnawing on Davidson's hand as he talks. My name's Gerald Davidson. I lived at 851 Queenston Road, Stony Creek.

I met Cheryl, oh, jeez, about five years before the incident where she disappeared. Davidson lived on the second floor. Cheryl and Mike lived on the seventh. It's, I don't know, she always dressed nice. She always had nice clothes and stuff. She was always nice to me. You know what I mean? I got along with her really good.

You know, she used to go out with another friend of mine. That friend was Brian Sweeney, Cheryl's second husband. I did her wedding. I had limos. I supplied a limousine for her wedding. And we used to hang out at Tim Hortons at Main and Wentworth and I call it my central office, that's where I park my

limos all the time and just sat there and that's where I met her actually but I knew everybody in there and everybody talked about Cheryl because I had the pictures up there and everybody knew that's where she hung out. So that's where I first met Cheryl, was at Tim Hortons. Then Davidson tells me the story of how he witnessed Michael Lavoie with garbage bags.

Well, about three days before the police came to the apartment building, I was in the underground parking, and I was getting out of my car and he was coming into the underground parking, like there's an elevator then a door, and he was carrying two garbage bags in one hand and some clothes in the other. When he was carrying the bags and stuff out, I asked him, I said, well, where's Cheryl? And he said, she's sick. She can't get out of bed and she can't even call her mother or talk to her mother, right? So, you know, I said, well, I hope she gets better. And then he threw the stuff in the car and out of the underground parking. So this is sometime after January 1st, three days before the police get there. Davidson dates his story so that it could have occurred between Friday, January 2nd and Monday, January 5th.

Police say that in Davidson's statement he made at the time, it was simply sometime after January 1st, 1998. He couldn't get out of there fast enough. I had no idea where he was going with stuff. And you think this would be after January 1st? Oh yeah, it was after New Year. Like right after like New Year's Eve. Okay. It was close to New Year's. And you say that he had women's clothes in the bag. Well, I don't know what was in the bags, but carrying on hangers. There was, you could tell they were women's clothes, like, like dress pants. Like, I knew the clothes that Cheryl wore,

and it looked like women's dress pants. There was a skirt and a couple of blouses and stuff, and he was throwing them in the back of the car. From Davidson's garbage bag story, it's apparent that Lavoie was transporting at least women's clothing. But what else was in the bags is unknown and why. Lavoie said that Cheryl was sick upstairs and voluntarily added that she could not even call her mother.

This is what Davidson reported to police at the time. But Cheryl did call her mother and relatives on January 1st around midday and didn't seem sick or mention a sickness. On January 2nd, Cheryl was seen at the bingo between 9.30am and 12.30pm, again, not sick in the apartment. And later on January 2nd, according to Lavoie, he drove Cheryl to the Concord Hotel in Niagara Falls to dance. So, if she was sick on the 2nd, and Lavoie did drop her at the Concord Hotel in Niagara Falls to dance. So if she was sick on the 2nd and Lavoie did drop her at the Concord, one wonders if it would have been even possible to dance. Unfortunately, no clearer date is available for when Davidson may have witnessed Lavoie

with the garbage bags after January 1st as he he told police at the time, or three days before police arrived at 851 Queenston, as he has just told me. The further away from January 2nd that Davidson may have seen Lavoie with the bags, the stranger his comment that Cheryl was sick upstairs becomes, because it was clear that Cheryl was missing across the weekend. I've witnessed him a couple of times. He's a pretty violent person. But Davidson's garbage bag story is not the only thing he wants to talk about today. In the weeks leading up to Cheryl Shepard's disappearance, Davidson witnessed other interactions between Cheryl and Michael Lavoie.

One incident occurs just before Christmas at the main entrance foyer to Cheryl's apartment building. So what did you witness between Cheryl and Mike? He was in a foyer arguing with her. But I never realized at the time what Cheryl was into, exotic dancing or whatever she was doing. I never knew her as that. I never even knew she did that. But apparently, that's what they're arguing about.

You know, she wanted to get back and do it or something. And I heard them arguing in the foyer. So I just stood there to make sure that he didn't, you know, hit her. He just took off. She went back upstairs. And the argument was about, tell me, see if you can remember any snippet of the conversation. All I heard her saying is, I want to do it again.

And he was saying, I don't want you dancing. So I knew right away what it was, right? He said, I had enough of this stuff and you ain't dancing. We don't need the money and all this crap. And she said, I'm doing it whether you like it or not. Davidson goes through the story again and a few more details emerge. I came in from the underground parking to check the mail at the boxes in the building and I came out of the elevator and they were standing in the foyer and they were screaming.

She was screaming more than he was but she's getting back into it. He said, you're not getting back into it, you're not doing that anymore. And he grabbed her by the arm and tried to pull her outside, but she went back in the building and shut the door and he just took off like it has a lock. So I don't know if he had a key or she just got in the elevator and went upstairs. So he took off and that was the end of that. And what was their understanding of what they were talking about?

I guess she wanted to get into this dancing again and he's, no, no, no. I don't know. And that was? Just before Christmas. They were arguing and that's the last time I saw her. So it's just, but I'd known her for a long time. It's not like I just met the girl. But I knew her before she was going out with this guy.

This altercation in the foyer was not previously reported to police. Here we have Cheryl arguing and jostling with Michael just a couple of weeks before she disappears, according to Davidson's observations, because Cheryl wanted to return to dancing, and Michael, angrily, does not want her to. And then the other incident was just a little bit before that. Yeah, it was about a week before that.

Like the garbage bag incident, this third event happened, Davidson says, in the underground parking area, a week or more before the fight in the foyer. So sometime in December before Christmas, just weeks before Cheryl disappeared. When I came into the underground parking, I heard people arguing. So I drove down, you come down, you come around the corner, and they parked maybe 100 feet from where I parked, my parking spot. I just had a Cadillac painted, and I came over to the underground, and I heard somebody arguing, and then I heard her scream. She was pretty boisterous, too.

She wasn't no mouse, but she was screaming at him, so I just got out of my car and stood there and leaned against the car. And then he grabbed her, put her up against the wall, and he said, if you keep fucking around with me, excuse my language, he says something's going to happen to you. And he had her up against the wall in the underground parking by the throat. And he threatened her, like it was around Christmas time. Police have not heard the verbal part of this threat before that Davidson says he observed. And I left. You know, I watched to make sure he wasn't going to beat the shit out of her. And then I just took off. I really didn't

want to get into that kind of mess. Davidson's statements to police do include another detail that I don't hear in my interview. In Davidson's original statement, he says that when he saw Michael Lavoie grab Cheryl by the throat in the parking garage, Cheryl was wearing her Tim Hortons uniform. And then she just all of a sudden disappeared. The mention of throat reminds me of Odette's story of returning to the apartment one day and seeing the aftermath of another grabbing incident,

reportedly involving Michael. Cheryl is crying and her throat is scratched and bleeding. We haven't been able to find the female Hamilton police officer who allegedly took Cheryl's statement, so if you're out there, please get in touch. I return one more time to the garbage bag incident and try to get Davidson to focus on the timing one more time. And while he cannot pinpoint it, going back over his memory again does bring out something else. It was after the New Year, I know, and the New Year, that just brought something back too.

They went out for New Year's, and they had a big fight then, right? This is what he told me, that they had a big fight at New Year's, and she never told me, I never talked to her about it, but that she wanted, she was dancing with somebody or something, and they had a big fight. Gwen, Michael's former partner, also told police that Michael said he and Cheryl had an argument. Is this the same argument he allegedly told Davidson about, or a different one?

Davidson says he knew Michael and Cheryl well, and the discussion about the argument makes me wonder what Davidson might have noticed about Cheryl's temper. Well, Cheryl was all right. She was a nut. Like, she was a crazy woman. I got one over there, but, I mean, she was, if you pissed her off, she got violent. She'd scream and yell and throw stuff, and, you know, so I don't know if this led to them getting into a fight. I was up to the apartment when the police were there.

I'd seen all the spots on the wall where they circled and stuff. I talked to the police then, but I told them the same stuff I'm telling you. And what did the police tell you about the spots on the wall? They said they were Coke. Coke? Yeah, it was Coca-Cola. I'm not sure police knew exactly what it was on the wall at the time that Davidson was there. But adding together what Gwen said,

Michelle was asked by police about food or grease fights, and Detective Tom's answer about no substantial blood found, the range of what the spots circled on the wall could have been becomes a bit clearer here. I don't know if they had a fight and something was thrown around, but you know what they were doing because of the circles on all the little spots, right? So obviously they were looking for blood, you know, splatters. And they said that there were signs of altercation in the living room there.

She didn't wear glasses all the time. She did wear them once in a while, but it just didn't clue on me about glasses. And her contacts. Yeah. Everything was found there. Yeah, she wore contacts more often than glasses. I've seen Cheryl almost every day in and out of the apartment. And then she just all of a sudden disappeared.

You know, usually when you see somebody all the time, you wonder where the hell they went, right? Right. Especially when you know them. But he just, he kind of shunned me off if I tried to talk to him. And was there ever anybody that you met that thought that Cheryl might still be alive? No, no, no. I don't think one person's ever said, you know, she just took off. It wasn't like her to just do that.

Because her and her mom were close, eh? So I can't see her just taking off and leaving her mom like that. You know, no nice people. I like her mom. He's always pissed off, this guy. Like he was always in this, you know, like somebody jerked me off mood. You know what I mean?

Like he never talked to you. He was a very nice man. He did talk to you, but I didn't associate with him too much. I know I talked to Cheryl one time at Hortons. I mean, it went with. And he gave me the look like, you know, stay away from her kind of thing. But I knew her a long, long time before, like four or five years before that. But I never had a problem with her. I've seen her

in fights at Tim Hortons. I've seen her in fights with other women or other guys. I've seen her punch a guy right in the mouth at Hortons. Really? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. While she was on the job? No, no. If you started arguing with her, she'd jump right on your ass. And I don't know if that's what happened.

If he got in her face and she just went at him. I don't know. He was a lot bigger than she was. She was just a tiny, she had to weigh about 100 pounds. It was so long ago, it's hard to remember. As you were talking, you start thinking, and it's a shame too, I liked her. Yeah.

I really liked her. Davidson and I move outside. The rain has thinned, but the sky is still overcast. I want to know more about the incidents I've heard Davidson talk about, so I have an idea. I'm just thinking, can you show me, like on my body, how he was grabbing her? Just demonstrate to me how, when you saw him grab her arm,

how did you do that when he grabbed it in the foyer there? Well, the door's like, the door opened this way, and the other one opened in. Yep. So he grabbed the door, he grabbed her by the arm like this. Right there? Davidson grabs my forearm where it meets the elbow and yanks hard while holding onto a bricked column

that supports the porch with his other hand. And he tried to pull her, and then she went for the other door. Like that? It was open. And he was holding on? Yeah, and he let go. He let go. So she went through the door, and then she shut the door and went to the elevator,

and he just went out the door. Just left. Yeah, I don't think he had a key to get in. Then I asked Davidson to demonstrate how he saw Lavoie grabbing Cheryl by the throat. He had her like this. Yeah, right up against. And then up against the wall. One hand on the throat.

Her feet were almost off the floor. Really? Yeah, yeah. Davidson demonstrates Michael's hold on Cheryl's throat by pushing me against the bricks and lifting with his hand. It's firm and abrupt and horrifying. When he grabbed her and went back with her, like her little feet run like she was a small girl. You know, I would have had no trouble doing it, but I don't know. I never liked the guy from the time I met him. There's just something about him. You get that feeling about somebody. It's just never liked the guy from the time I met him. There's just something about him, eh? You get that feeling about somebody,

it's just never liked me. It kind of haunts you, because you don't know. You know, just to have closure. For the mom, I feel bad for the mom. For friends it's bad enough, but for a parent? Like if one of my kids went, I got six kids, one of them went missing like that, you know, it would drive me nuts. I just wouldn't stop.

And I know her mom won't stop. The rain's picked up again, and I'm on a long, straight road driving home. It's flat country because it used to be at the bottom of a shallow sea. You can still find fossils in the limestone around here if you dig beneath the soil or kick at some of the riverbeds from the Devonian era. I wonder how long memories like the ones I just heard from Gerald Davidson or Kara Branton remain etched in your brain before they're found or come to the surface, maybe simmered there forever. And how do you know when you've found the whole memory or just exposed the leading edge of

an ember to air for the first time? The stories I've heard from these people are startling, along with Porter's analysis of the proposal video. But is there still more to unearth? I'm certain there is. Because I've met people who are even closer to Michael Lavoie than we've heard from yet, and who have never spoken before. Like Pat Lavoie, his mother. You have been listening to Episode 9, The Appearance of Force. Visit cbc.ca slash sks to see a video of the New Year's Eve proposal. Subscribe in iTunes or your favorite podcast app.

If you like the show, please tell your friends. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen and mixed by Cecil Fernandez. The series is also produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kampf, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Our theme music is by Bob Wiseman, with vocals by Mary Margaret O'Hara and Jess Reimer. I will never stop my love I will never sleep Something here is precious