Someone Knows Something - S3 Bonus: Return to Mississippi

Episode Date: September 23, 2019

In this special episode, David and Thomas Moore reflect on their search for justice and what they’ve learned in the years since their investigation into the 1964 Klan murders of Henry Dee and Thomas’ brother Charles Moore.

We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga, capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music, and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today. This brand new series, created by Visit Mississauga, celebrates a city 50 years in the making, paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse, and dynamic third largest city. Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, This is a CBC Podcast. Hi there, I'll get a diet coke please, with fries. What do you want Thomas?

Yeah, give me a catfish sandwich. Alright, you want everything on your fish sandwich? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Do you see a lot of people stopping out here? No, not really. Not really. Do you know what that is?

No, I don't. What is it? Well, that's the memorial of my brother, who's on the left. Uh-huh. My friend is on the right. They got killed right there? They got picked up by a Klan. Oh.

Jammed for a seal. Oh, I remember something about that. Yeah. More. More? Yeah. More. More.

More. More. More a clan. Oh. Jam 4 Seals. Oh, I remember something about that. Moore. Moore? Yeah. They were picked up in 1964, 19 years old, hitchhiking. And that's where they were picked up, right there?

They were taken down to the home, to the Nazarene Forest and beat up, interrogated by five clansmen from here. And then they loaded them in the trunk of a car and drove across the river and threw them in the missing room. Oh my gosh. Yes. You are listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. In season three, David Ridgen teams up with Thomas Moore to investigate the murders of Charles Moore and Henry Dee, who were killed by the Ku Klux Klan in 1964.

As a result of their investigation, Klansman James Ford Seal was convicted of the crime and later died in prison. In this episode, some of which was recorded during a live presentation in June, David and Thomas reflect on their search for justice and what they've learned in the years since. This is a Season 3 bonus. Return to Mississippi. Now you a season three bonus. Return to Mississippi. Now you're talking about terror. I think you're talking about terror. People have been terrorized all my days, all my days. day. Thanks very much for coming, everybody. So many people. You know, I'm usually in the dark

talking on my own into a mic. I'm not usually in front of a whole bunch of people like this, but I kind of like it. People always ask me the question, what made you get into investigation? And the seeking of honesty became one of my lifelong driving forces. And I speak here in a way that makes it appear as if I know where I've been and where I'm going. But I'm not going to pretend. My opinion is that we never really know why we do most things. Everything else is the story filling in the space between, to me, the empty space, always filling the space with story. The empty space is what drives everything human, how we fill it, how we make it make meaning for us. And the definition of honesty and truth, well, problematic. But let's agree that

seeking honesty starts with being honest about ourselves, starts with the understanding that the act of telling others truth can offer a kind of release. Some people brand themselves with authenticity to make money because authenticity sells, but it's not the same as truth. Authenticity is the blush of truth. Once you find it, you know it, and it will change you. I was changed by working on this case with Thomas Moore, the 1964 murder of Henry D. and Charles Moore by the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in Mississippi. And today we're all fortunate to have Thomas here with us, one of my greatest friends and one of the smartest people I've ever met. Thomas Gore. Again, I want to thank everyone for coming here and putting over David and I. I wish I had the time to tell you how I put over him and he had to put up with me. In 2005, I retired from the military, and I was living a good life.

I became comfortable thinking about Charles Moore. Never knowing the facts. Who, what, when, why, how. Living on rumors. David Ridgen contacted me. Like there was actually sometimes you picked up and hung up, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Finally, I sent him a FedEx letter because I thought there was something wrong with the phone. So what was going on with that? Well, it seemed like every year someone would contact me. Los Angeles Times, ABC News. They asked me to give them some details about the case. And I said, hell, I don't know nothing about the case.

You know, I'd never seen a document. Me and my mom didn't want to talk about it. So I just got tired of people asking me what happened. And so I just stopped answering phones and David happened to call. And then I went up on the mountain piece and got that letter that he had wrote several months ago. And he made a plan to come to Colorado Springs to meet with me.

And I was reluctant to meet with him because I had made some pretty serious threats. And I said, I don't know whether this guy is a Klan man or not. But then he showed up with his wife and his son. And I said, well, I think I can take them all out if I have to. So David began to tell me what his plan was to go to Mississippi.

He asked me, would I go to Mississippi with him to try to find out something? And I asked David, I said, what can I expect to get out of this trip? He said, well, maybe we would get a little bit of truth. And that started the journey. Oh, I think of Charles Moore all the time, but I think of him totally different. I can have a bad day, and I think about what David and I was able to do and my day turned around. I often ask myself, and I talked to David many, many times, what if when David asked me to go to Mississippi in 2005, what if I had said no?

I'm used to living in pain. What if I had said that? Then I wouldn't be standing here today. Because I'm free. And got some justice. Please drive to highlighted route. What did you think of this lady not knowing anything about the memorial that's about 40 feet from her front door? I take it for granted. They don't want to know. I guess you're going over there to look. There's somebody going across to look right now.

That's the cook. That's a cook. That's a living cook. In one kilometer, turn right on Highway 556. I'm surprised that she never took the time to look at what's right across. I mean, you can't look out that front window without staring at the thing the whole time. I'm wondering why people stopped there. That day we rolled down this road going to Franklin County. Just think about it, we had our mind on Charles Marcus. Little did we know,

within 20 miles of where we are right now, we would be told that James Ford's seal was still alive. That's amazing. And all we were doing was looking for a little truth. That's why we left Colorado, brother. That's all we could look forward to. But this road here led us to the truth. This is a picture of Thomas and I standing next to one of several memorial signs

we put up in and around Meadville. It's changed since then, several iterations. Some of them were ripped down. David and I wanted to remember Charles Moore and Henry D. in such a way that so many people have forgotten about or didn't want to come to the realization. So we built handmade memorials. And for a long time, until 2007, there were no pictures of Henry D. Henry D's family just split up. But through our effort, we found Henry D's pictures, so we put it up. And as I made speeches to people that I continue to do, I tell them that, look, the memorial that David and I built is not for Charles Moore and Henry D. It's for you, to remind you every time you pass by this spot that this crime happened right here.

Another friend of mine two months ago invited me on a tour in the Civil Rights Museum in Montgomery, and she has worked so hard to get a state memorial built to honor Charles Moore and Henry D. And we will place it right by the one that David and I put up. This is the site where the memorial is, where Henry D. and Charles Moore were hitchhiking on May 2nd, 1964. Charles and Henry were murdered by members of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan on May 2nd. My feeling is that some of the sort of more insidious aspects of racism still exist in the South and in the North.

I don't know if you feel the South has changed much since we left. I think there has been some change. The people that wanted to change, they have made some change, but not nearly enough. When David and I were going running around over 20 times in Mississippi, nobody invited us to have a hamburger or lunch.

They wanted to stay away. I think there's still a fear. I mean, if you look at it, if you look at America right now, we're still separate. You have the blacks over here. You have the whites over here. I still have the little small cup

that Mama used to put in her purse that we went into Meadville to get some water from the fountain, where it said colored and white. They don't have that now. But there's still separation. And will it ever change? I don't know.

We were traveling the road that Henry D. and the nobles in the car were sealed in. This place right here to the left is old County Fairgrounds. Yeah. That was the first time I had made out with my girl right back there in the back of the car. Amen. I'll never forget that. I knew she was with new family that live over here. This is the hospital over here to the right.

And they moved that old tank. See that old tank right there? That's the tank I was planning on climbing up. What were you going to do? My plan wasn't to go up there and pause in the tank. Because everybody in Meville drank water from that tank. And my plan was to go up there and poison the tank, because everybody in Meville drank water from that tank. And my plan was to go up there and poison the damn thing. We was approaching downtown Meadville, Mississippi. That last day of Charles Morton's life,

he walked on down here. Trouble started. We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga, capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music, and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today. This brand-new series, created by Visit Mississauga, celebrates a city 50 years in the making, paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse, and dynamic third largest city.

Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, to learn more. Available now on CBZ Listen. Are you sure you parked over here? Do you see it anywhere? I think it's back this way. Come on. Hey, you're going the wrong way.

Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Whether renting, considering buying a home, or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash It Pays to Know. A message from the Government of Canada. Growing up in Meadville at that time, my dad, our dad died when I was two and a half years old. Charles Moore was one and a half. My mom had to get on the welfare. And the match that we received when I was 18 was $12 a month.

Hitchhiking was a way of life. Every time I left home, I would either walk in a road or wagon. People would drive by and take pictures. But I'm so glad that Mama raised Charlie Moore and I to respect each other and respect what she did for us. You want to talk a little bit about your experiences in Needville growing up? Yeah. I always wondered if Thomas knew about the Klan and was it like everyone was afraid of the Klan and I was surprised by your answer. We plowed garden for David and I found out later was actually Klan's one.

And if it was lunchtime and we plowed their garden, they invited us in to eat the dinner. When we went into the table, we didn't eat with them. They brought us in the back, but they had collard greens, cornbread, chicken, and everything that black people had. But I didn't know that they were planning. And later on, I am convinced that everyone in Franklin County, black and white, knew what happened. And they were either Klansmen, or Klansmen sympathizers, or afraid of the Klan. That was Franklin County. This is all was open and this the house was like sitting right here facing that way when

mama could look and see all the way up all this was open and see up to the road and that's where she thought he would walk down this road. I told her, Mama, he won't come back. But this is where she died, April 29, 1977. When I come in, I didn't know she was dead. I drove down this road, and as I approached where I could see the house, I seen two or three cars parked over there. They'd been told she was sick. And I come to see what I could do, get her in the hospital. I spoke to everybody and I asked her how mama was doing. And she said, boy, your mama did. When we got to the church,

I had my uniform on for her funeral, and I walked in front of her casket and to the church. So from working on Mississippi cold case with Thomas, I developed all the hallmarks that would become part of my later work in investigating murder. I learned much of what I know from this case, your case really, and have transferred it into any of the other work I've done for SKS. So first, family must form the main pillar of any investigation. Integral, meaningful family involvement can be proof against exploitation, because it's often leveled at podcasters like me that you're just exploiting cases to make millions. I'll tell that to my sardines that I brought on my trip with me.

And to some extent, I see family and their confrontation of darkness and potential healing that may come out of this as the main reason to do this. I don't really do it because it's true crime or whatever. Courtroom justice can only take you so far. Once your suspect is convicted and everyone goes home, you still have that empty space to fill, right? How do you feel about the experience working with me on this, Thomas? It's not a loaded question. I didn't, I mean, I'm not, we didn't plan this question. I never will be able to express the friendship that we have developed. Matter of fact, I told him that he just takes a place of Charles Moore.

As I was walking this morning, I heard this Mark and Brewer singing. You know, it's amazing that all the time that we came down here, I never was peaceful-minded enough to hear a Mark and Bruce sing. You know, it's incredible. The peacefulness and the completion. Now you can listen to the Mark and Bruce sing. That's powerful stuff right there. Mark and Bird song. Well, that's powerful stuff right there. Mark and Bird song. David know me.

David know what to say and when to say it. David kept this picture of Charles Moore's skull for years after we met, until he was convinced that I had made a change. David made sure that when we went to Mississippi, I didn't have that.30-30 or 12-gauge shotgun. David knew when he was getting to the point of pissing me off. It's not too hard. And I knew when I was getting to the point of pissing him off. So David, I have said it many times,

but I want to stand here today and tell you that I am what you helped produce in helping me find the truth. You produced yourself. We did it together. Thank you. up. What did you think of that crime con thing? Well I thought about it. I was most impressed with the fact that we were able to come in here and

let the people know what a true common individual could do. I think it was a great thing. I think these kind of conferences are always good to bring people together. I think it should more be about how people find justice and truth for themselves, but it's a different kind of way of looking

at allegedly true crime, yeah. And of course, you never get over the pain, but you live with it, and each day you get more comfortable. Like Dr. King said from jail in Alabama, they wrote him, said, how does it feel in Alabama? He said, well, they're still throwing stones at me, but I learned how to duck. So you don't get over this. Please drive to highlighted route.

We talk about meeting you in 2005 and what we was able to go out and do and how I was able to grow. Experience, knowledge, confidence, and all of that. But we never talk about you. We never talk about what that case did for your personal life, your growth, your outlook on life. You know, we never did talk about that. The most important thing for me is just that I was able to make something happen.

That there was something that I did that had some ripple effects beyond us as well, right? So with other cases, other people, other journalists, other families, made me feel like there was a wave that we had formed that kind of splashed against a lot of different shores, you know? Yeah. That's what's important to me and people wanted me to do more true crime that's for sure but the personal satisfaction of actually helping people like yourself and other family members is what makes me interested in these cases even though they are taxing as you know for your own reasons but for my reasons they're taxing as well because they never kind of end, right? The mission will never end. It's just a continuous thing until we die, whatever. But it has been a great journey. But it does have a sense of finality to it, this trip. It does. It does.

Yeah. You got the flowers? They're in the back. Okay. I remember coming into this graveyard many times. Oh yeah. We've been over here many times. Oh boy, you'll be stepping all over the grave. Daddy was buried behind here. Mama was buried over there.

So Charles Moore should be over there. I don't know. He should be buried right here. Okay, well. It's all through you guys. I hope that you guys are looking down on me. Keep your fingers crossed that I'll continue to press on. I'm at peace. I'm at peace.

I just hope you all rest in peace. Especially you, Charles Moorlachar. Your life was cut away so short, so early. A lot of good work have come out of your death. So I'll be back. I'll come back. I'm going to have some people come up here and trim these trees, trim that old bush down too. Charles Moorlachar, the Moorlachar being built, I come back, I'm gonna have some people come up here and trim these trees, trim that old bush down too. So, it's a lot more of a memory being built. No one's already there, but another one being put up there too.

In memory of you. Well, we'll see you on the high ground. Okay Dave. See you, Charles. Another trip. You have been listening to a Season 3 bonus. Return to Mississippi. This episode was recorded live at CrimeCon 2019. Visit cbc.ca.sks to hear how the Dee and Moore case unfolded and to see images from the investigation. And subscribe to SKS on your favorite podcast app. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen.

The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak, Eunice Kim, and Mikala Rana. Tanya Springer is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Arif Noorani. Our theme song is Terrorized by Willie King. Now you talk about terror. I think you talk about terror. People have been terrorized. All my days.

All my days. All my days. Lord, you brought me, Lord, you brought me from a mighty, almighty long way. Lord, you brought me from a mighty, almighty mighty long way, a mighty long way. Lord, I thank you. Lord, I thank you. Lord, I thank you. Lord, you brought me from a mighty, a mighty long ways, a mighty long way. I had to cry sometime, but you brought me. Lord, you brought me from a mighty, a mighty long way, a mighty long way. Pretty good, Mr. Sergeant Major.