Someone Knows Something - S3 Episode 3: The Hornet’s Nest

Episode Date: November 6, 2017

David and Thomas meet journalist Jerry Mitchell, who has stacks of FBI documents about the case. They speak to people who lived through the terror of civil rights era Mississippi, and visit U.S. Attorney Dunn Lampton to try to get the case reopened. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season3/someone-knows-something-season-3-dee-moor-transcripts-listen-1.4360239

Turn off hesitation. Turn off doubt. Turn off fears. The YMCA helps you turn off whatever's holding you back, so you can let your potential shine. Through our wide range of programs and services, you can turn on confidence. Turn on connections.

Turn on possibilities. Visit our website to see what you can achieve at the YMCA. This will be the day. This is a CBC Podcast. As far as I know, the James Ford with Seals, I see him once or twice a month riding in that white Malibu car, Chevrolet car. That's Kenny Bird now. He's here with us in the van in the moments after telling us that James Ford Seal is alive.

He's been reported as dead in the media. The media, most people think he's dead. Right, no, he's not dead. That's the same James Seals I know of. That's supposed to be him living right down that hill there in that motorhome. And is it well known around here that he's alive and well and living over there? Yes, as far as I know. Everybody knows he lives here and all and where he lives at.

He's been living there for years. You're listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Original Podcasts. In season three, David Ridgen revisits his 2007 documentary, Mississippi Cold Case. Teaming up with Thomas Moore to investigate the murders of his brother, Charles Moore, and Henry Dee, two 19-year-olds who were killed by the Ku Klux Klan in 1964. This is Episode 3, The Hornet's Nest. Now you talk about terror. I think you talk about terror. People have been terrorized all my days. All my days. We ought to go in there and get that son of a bitch.

You know, I've been focusing on Marcus. This is the son of a bitch. This is the guy that did all the whooping and the interrogating and shit. We ought to just come down in there on him and take him over to Harper and say, here he is. He made my day. So we just saw James Forteel's car drive by. We're going to drive by and see if he comes out of it. We'll see if he's there. There was somebody behind the wheel. It looked like it could have been his wife. So let's just get up there. I'll bring the camera up when we get past.

Okay, so let's see what we see here. Down a driveway at the bottom of a hill next to a red brick bungalow, sits a white Fleetwood Bounder motorhome, parked next to an open gazebo, which serves as a sort of outdoor living room. An elderly couple, one a grey-haired, balding man, glasses, with knobby elbows tucked into a plaid short-sleeved shirt, the other a shorter, dark, silver-haired woman, are collecting groceries in plastic bags out of the backseat of a white Chevy. We've got to get over in this direction over here.

I zoom in and try to steady my camera. This has been one of many drive-bys since we first discovered the person's identity at the end of my telephoto. And this would be the best picture I'd get. It looked like him. Yep. Yep. It is him, James Seal, the man who, along with other Klansmen, brutally murdered Henry

D. and Charles Moore. So do you think that he is accepted in the community? As far as I know, it looks like everybody here in this community is accepted. When we started from Colorado, we wanted to speak to Charles Marcus Edwards. Now, with James Ford's seal, we had someone new to focus on. And as we drop Kenny off back at the BP station, our plans begin to shift. Seal in the 1960s was known for his unpredictable violence as a member of the Klan. Edwards was thought of as more of a Klan functionary, even a weak link, since he had talked to the FBI on the

day of his arrest in November 1964, revealing some of the details of the crime. But since their arrest and release on $5,000 bond, Edwards has not admitted anything to anyone. Hey, Jeremy Mitchell. This is Thomas James Moore. Hey, Mr. Moore. I was just trying to call you. Well, I just turned my phone on. Ah, no problem.

Do you want to get together tomorrow morning? Tomorrow would be fine. I need to get those FBI documents out and look at them. Well, I got, you know, you did give me the nine pages, but I understand you have the whole package. No, no, I got a stack of stuff. Okay. Hey, Jerry? Yep.

James Seals is alive and well. Oh, okay. He lives in Roxham, Mississippi Mississippi and I have him on video on camera. How about that? Yeah. Thirty minutes after I hit Franklin County, that's driving 15 minutes and then stopping at a store to get some boiled peanuts. Right. Within 30 minutes I knew that he was alive because the first person I talked to told me that. How about that?

Now, Jerry, you know, I don't know where you got the information. About him being dead? Yeah. I think from his family. I found out later that Seal's son, James Jr., who lived in Alabama, helped spread the rumor to the media that his father was dead. Well, I'm glad to know he's alive and well. Yeah.

He's, uh, he's, uh, if you can get David to talk to him, I doubt he'll do an interview, but man, he's a piece of work. He is a piece of work. Edwards I got a different impression of than I did Seal. Yeah. Seal was just absolutely unreconstructed. I mean there's just no question about it. I have talked to whites and I have talked to blacks. And they both said the same thing. And I cannot understand

how Franklin Countyans can afford to have a renegade, dangerous person that they is afraid of in the community and nobody doing anything about it. I cannot understand that. It took an Army veteran of 30 years in the military that has retired to come back here and just get on the ground and talk to people. Just talking to normal people. I didn't actually print that he was dead, but I had had somebody

in his family tell me that, but obviously that was, they were lying about it, obviously. We made plans to meet Jerry the next day and said goodbye. See you tomorrow. Thank you. Look forward to seeing you. Yes, sir.

Bye-bye. Bye-bye. I beat that. They will not have a bad day down here. Every day better and better, you know what I mean? Thomas wanted to share news of our trip with a couple of others. Trying to respect these graves and not walk on top of anybody. Kind of like, got my way through here.

The old Mount Olive Cemetery is where Thomas' family, his mother Maisie, father Charlie and brother Charles, were buried. We walk over grassy humps and past sun-bleached lambs and angels perched on leaning stones. That's... That's his graves. Charles Eddie Moore's tombstone was etched by hand, weather-worn and modest, hidden in the back right corner of the cemetery grounds. I gotta get him a new tombstone. I don't know why this has been defaced. You see that?

This was a local guy that did this. Didn't spell his name right. I take a closer look. Charles is hand-drawn into the cement as Churley, and last name Moore is missing the final E. I mean, it's even

turned wrong. No, but that's my father's grave. I mean, it's even turned wrong. That's my father's grave. That's my mother's grave. What does it say on the tombstone? It says, Charles Eddie Moore, born August 10, 1944,

buried July 1964. Darling, we will miss you. Then on the bottom it said, anywhere, anywhere in glory is alright. That's what it said. Anywhere in glory is all right. That's what it says. Anywhere in glory. On another trip, a cousin of Henry D's brought me to the graveyard where Henry had been buried.

At the time, the family feared that any headstone could be desecrated, so there's no marker. I asked Thomas about the service that the Moore family held for Charles. It was a small funeral, mostly of the community up here and relatives, a few classmates. It was sad. Didn't nobody talk.

The preacher didn't talk anything about the violent act or nothing like that. Mama requested that I wear my uniform. And she asked me to walk in front of the casket into the church. I don't know why she asked me to do that, but I did that. I had on my class A khaki uniform. He had a nickname, Nub. N-U-B. Everybody knew Nub.

Yeah, that's what Mama and them called him, Nub. I never called him Charles Moore. I called him Nub. If you could say anything to your brother right now, what would you say to him? I always tell him, Charles Moore, you know, I miss you. Your death brought hard things on us. Your senseless death.

So what I'm doing is trying to figure out who is responsible and hold that guy or those people Meadville, Mississippi, Franklin County, and the state of Mississippi accountable. I miss you. I miss the whole family. So rest in peace. I like this word. The day before the day I read on the bottom, it said, Anywhere in glory. It's all right.

As we leave the graveyard in the van, Thomas tells me about the last time he was here, in 1999-2000, during Connie Chung's ABC 2020 investigation. They brought me down. I met Connie Chung over ABC 2020 investigation. They brought me down. I met Connie Chung over in Meadville. We drove up to the cemetery, interviewed, took pictures, and that was it.

The whole thing lasted about four hours, maybe. The drive up, setting up, the little interview we had, and that was it. Compared to what we're doing now, we've been in Colorado three, four days. We've been shooting and talking, get hoes talking. So there was no involvement from me from Connor Chong about the cave. Humid sun and the smell of steamed pine permeates the air. Thomas and I have driven as deep as we can into the Homo Cheater National Forest

without losing phone signal. We thought it was a fitting location for what we planned next. Hello? Hello, can I speak to Mr. Edwards please? Who is this? My name is David Ridgen and I'm calling with Thomas Moore. Can I just talk to you for a couple of seconds? I don't believe you can.

Sir, Mr. Moore's down here trying to... I guess he hung up. He hung up. Our thinking was that phoning first might be the best option, being less confrontational, while still leaving open the option of knocking on Edward's door later on. Hello? Hello, Mr. Edwards, sorry.

Mr. Moore just wants to talk to you for, like all he wants to do is talk to you man to man. Edwards didn't seem overly open to talking on the phone. What do you think? I told you that. Yeah, that motherfucker ain't gonna talk to me. But you tried. Yeah, that motherfucker haven't talked to me. But you try. I don't believe...

I don't believe you can. Coward, man. You didn't do it, why you don't want to talk to him about it? Let's get it all. Let's convince me we should be looking

for somebody else. We decide to try once more, this time with Thomas speaking to Edwards directly. I think the best thing to say to Edwards is to ever tell me why you was arrested

40 years ago. You don't think he'll hang up? Yeah, he gonna hang up. As soon as he, as soon as he said, as soon as I said this is Thomas Moore,

he's gonna hang up. Edwards, this is Thomas Moore, he's going to hang up. Edward, this is Thomas Moore. In the name of our God, will you please talk to me? Okay. Hello, we are not available now. Please leave your name and number after the beep. Edwards, this is Thomas Moore. In the name of our God, will you please talk to me?

I need closure in the killing of my brother 41 years ago. And you was named and you was arrested 41 years ago. One of the two guys. Tell me why the FBI arrested you, why they have so many documents on you. If you're not the guy, then let's close it. There's no sense in you and I both going through hell for the rest of our life. I'm not a violent guy. I want to talk to you in a neutral gown, man to man, face to face. Just the two of us.

We set Edwards aside for now. All right, let's get out of here. It's hot, man. We set Edwards aside for now. Eventually, we decide to proceed along several tracks, try to continue approaching Edwards, the potential weak link in the case, to get him to talk, and simultaneously apply pressure on Seal, whom Thomas felt was more dangerous by using other tactics. But first, we had to make a trip to Jackson, Mississippi. Jerry Mitchell is an appealing mixture of laid-back Southern charm and professionalism dressed in a sharp blue shirt and tie.

Not overdressed, but certainly a fashionable step above Thomas and I, sweating through our ball caps, t-shirts, and shorts. He's also become something of an icon in civil rights-era journalism, reporting on cases and, through that reporting, helping to move those cases into the courtroom. Byron DeLaBeckwith, Sam Bowers, Bobby Cherry, just some of the perpetrators Mitchell has played a role in bringing to justice. So we here to sit down and chat with you a little bit. Sure, sure, absolutely. Figure out how we're going to eat this catfish.

We've got to talk about that. In 1999-2000, Jerry and ABC-TV had obtained copies of some of the original pages from the FBI investigation that was conducted into the Dean Moore case, nine pages of which Jerry had already shared with Thomas. Turn it off. Some of the last stories on this. When I talked to Seal, what Seal said to me. But here's the stack of FBI stuff. Just outside of Jerry's cubicle in the Clarion Ledger's busy newsroom sits a banker's box, and there's a stack of papers piled on top. All this about this kid? Yeah. Told you.

If y'all want to take and make copies of them, it's fine with me. This represented about half of the files that I would eventually lay my hands on throughout the process of filming from various sources around the USA. Mitchell's generous handoff was a treasure trove of unredacted names and addresses for everyone the FBI interviewed, including information about Dean Moore's remains and the day that Edwards and Seal were arrested. Thomas wished he could have had the files years earlier, and with mountains of evidence like this, the question

remains and festers, why did Lennox Foreman, the state district attorney, do nothing? Two months after Charles Marcus Edwards and James Ford Seal were arrested, Foreman asked to have the affidavits against them, the murder charges dismissed without prejudice, saying that he needed additional information or evidence if he was to consider moving forward. Let me ask you, why do you think he didn't prosecute? Well, he insists that he didn't have

enough evidence to do it. But of course, the FBI agents that I've talked to who were involved in investigating the case said that they presented him evidence. And then when that wasn't enough, they went out and got more and brought it back to him. And he just kept refusing. So the case is languished. I mean, it was reopened back in 2000, I think it was, when they found out that the killings could have taken place on federal property, and the FBI looked at that, but they decided not to pursue this case. And so it's just languished all this time. What do you think the chances are?

I mean, I guess what do you think of Thomas' endeavor now? I think it's great. I think the huge plus for this chances are, I mean, Thomas's, I guess what do you think of Thomas's endeavor now? I think it's great. I think the huge plus for this case are these FBI documents, the fact that you've got almost 1,000 pages of FBI documents. That's so much, in terms of cases, that makes it so much easier. It doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but it means it's going to be easier to pursue this case than it would be, say, a Demet Till case or some of these other cases that basically had no investigation at the time. So you do have the names of potential suspects even beyond the two guys that got arrested. So people who might have information about the case, people who can be questioned and potential witnesses and all those kinds of things.

So as with all these cases, it's difficult. It's difficult to piece these things together. It's difficult to prosecute, but it can't be done. And we've seen that. We saw it with the case of the three civil rights workers and the Benchester White case, the four little girls that were killed in the Birmingham church bombing. All those things were basically, a lot of them pieced together because of FBI investigations, the documents that were generated originally.

As a matter of fact, we was on the way here. Right. And David talked to FBI in Washington, and the first thing the guy said, well, first of all, the FBI didn't investigate. What are you talking about? We stopped on the road and faxed him the nine pages. Yeah, exactly. And then he called back the day later and said, yeah, okay, okay, okay.

Well, that's like originally with this case, I don't know if you remember that or not. Originally when I asked the FBI about this case, they said all the documents in the case had been destroyed. Right, right. case, they said all the documents in the case had been destroyed. Well, then I ended up, someone I know had gotten access to some of those documents. And so then I basically wrote a story and said, hey, wait a minute. These documents haven't been destroyed. They do still exist. And so eventually I was able to get copies of the whole thing. With the file in hand, I'd have to read through it all at least a few times and track down all the witnesses I could, including old FBI or Mississippi Highway Patrol agents,

to see what they remembered. I'd have to hope that some of the best witnesses would still be alive over 40 years later. Turn off hesitation. Turn off doubt. still be alive over 40 years later. of programs and services, you can turn on confidence, turn on connections, turn on possibilities. Visit our website to see what you can achieve at the YMCA. This will be the day. You know what makes an eye exam at a clinic in Specsavers amazing? It includes an OCT eye health scan that can spot certain eye conditions early. And you know what's more amazing? It includes an OCT eye health scan that can spot certain eye conditions early. And you know what's more amazing? Eligible seniors over 65 get it at no cost to them.

And you know what's even more amazing? They'll get 50% off lens upgrades whenever they buy a pair of glasses. Amazing. Eye exam costs are covered by provincial health care for eligible seniors at participating locations. Conditions apply. See Specsavers.ca. Hi there. We're here to see Mr. Lampton at noon. Buoyed by our meeting with Jerry Mitchell and our growing pile of evidence, we left for our first meeting with the federal U.S. attorney for southern Mississippi, Dunn Lampton.

Did you know that Thomas and I were in the same unit in the military? As it turns out, Lampton and Thomas had served in the same Army division at the same time, though they did not know each other. Lampton, a colonel, and Thomas, a command sergeant major. I retired, well, me. What did you retire as? E-9, command sergeant major. That's impressive.

Oh, yeah. I'm very proud of that. Well, you should be. Perfect. You should be. Dunn-Lampton, with his dry sense of humor and casual lack of ceremony, all in a suit and tie, made a positive first impression. Is it on?

Could you turn it on? He's sitting behind a wooden desk in a gigantic corner office in the Department of Justice's Jackson, Mississippi, office tower. We were mobilized and we were attached to the 4th Infantry Division. The coincidental connection breaks the ice quickly, and we soon get down to business. Federal prosecutors have to prove that it happened on federal property. State prosecutor doesn't have to do that. And what I want to do and what I will do, and it hasn't happened before,

is to get everybody around one table that has any responsibility or authority and see what we have. A Republican, Lampton was appointed by George W. Bush on September 7, 2001. But he'd never heard about the Dee Moore case until I'd contacted him the week before our initial meeting. I'm going to review that. Then I'll make sure that Ronnie Harper has all the evidence

that I have. And, you know, we owe it to the people that were treated so poorly. And it hurt to just talk about it. It hurt me last night to just read stuff that I, you know, you read about stuff like this. What person would do, what country, what enemy do we have that would do stuff like that to him or me? It's just. We're seeing it today. Oh, yeah. With the terrorists. Yeah.

And we've got to understand the Klan was a terrorist organization back in the 60s. And they had a lot of power because people were afraid of them. And people are not afraid of them anymore. I just need to get a general statement, I guess, or as much of a statement as you can, as to where the case is now and what your intentions are. David, right now, my office has made a decision that there was not sufficient evidence to prove that it happened on federal property. We have to be able to prove that.

And then there's some problems with the proof as to who actually was involved in the murder. But I had not really looked at this file. That decision was made before I got here. And I will look at the file. That decision was made before I got here. And I will look at the file. I was doing it last night. But if there's sufficient evidence and if we can develop any new leads, we'll go with it. And I'm going to take a personal interest to make sure that it, just like you said,

that everything that can be done has been done, and now is the time to right some wrongs that have been just too long without any justice for the family. There's no statute of limitations on murder. No justice was done back in the 60s. It was just a mockery. We're going to take a real careful look at this for you, okay? Least I can do for my old sergeant major. Old sergeant never die.

That's great, thank you. Okay. This will get you there. Okay. Have a good day, sir. A few weeks later, Lampton gathered local, state, and federal authorities to discuss the Dean Moore case.

He announced that in addition to looking at Dean Moore, they would also reevaluate the case of Warless Jackson, another civil rights-era case from Natchez, Mississippi. Warless was killed by a car bomb in 1967. Speaking to the press afterwards, Lampton encouraged anyone with information about the cases, even those who may have played a role, to speak to investigators as soon as possible.

If there's any consideration to be given, Lampton said, it'll be given to people who come forward first. Oh, man. So he said he's going to take a personal interest in it. He said he owed that to his sergeant major. That made me feel pretty good. Lampton is your man. He just impressed me the way he walked and shit.

Like, I'm the bad, I'm the goddamn Wyatt Earp. Wyatt Earp or not, in order to get the case into federal court, Lampton will need an eyewitness to confirm that at least part of the crime occurred on federal land, in this case in the Homachita National Forest. We continued speaking with people throughout the community in search of a witness and to learn more about the atmosphere at the time. It wasn't difficult to find talkers. Often they chose to speak to us, approaching in a friendly manner,

accompanied by a kind of grace I found particular to the South, but also steeped in a healthy dose of suspicion of strangers, particularly northern ones. You just had to stop and see. When you live in a small town, you just stop and see what people are doing. You always stop and see. Because Meeple's a good little town. It's a nice little town.

This is downtown Rebel Clan, Main Street. I'm a resident now of Adams County, but I know everything about this place. Okay, well, let me tell you what happened in 1964. Thomas tells the story of his brother's death again and again, adding new details every time as we slowly uncover them. And those two guys are still alive. That's terrible. It's terrible. It wasn't nothing like that happened around here.

The deal was from down around Bunkley. Oh, did you ever work at a paper mill? No, I worked at Armstrong. The International Paper Company in Natchez counted many Klansmen among its white employees and was a major marshalling space for white supremacy in the region. Charles Marcus Edwards worked there, and the Armstrong Tire and Rubber Plant, also in Natchez, was another main organizing space for the Klan.

You think you're going to hear me stand up here and preach to you about hanging a nigger, or a black man, negro, or Afro-American, or any way you want to put it? There were a number of clan groups. The White Knights, like you're hearing at this rally. Also the Original Knights, United Clans of America, and so on. Sometimes they were connected, sometimes not, and at times fought with each other. And members changed their affiliations often due to disputes over money, ideology and control. The White Knights organize themselves in a quasi-military fashion and different cells of operation.

According to FBI documents, members of the Seal family, including James Ford Seal, were part of the more violent cells. What do the people in Meadville and Roxy think about having James Ford Seal and Charles Marcus Edwards living in their community? I think the general opinion is that they were guilty. And they just got off. I think that's pretty much the feeling everywhere. Blacks and whites, probably. Deep down in their heart, they wouldn't tell you, but I think most of them believe that they are guilty and they should have been convicted.

Margaret King worked as a chancery clerk in the courts of Franklin County in the 1960s. We're sitting in the polished dining area of her home near Meadville. Her hair has recently been styled and she wears narrow glasses. Well-spoken and forthright, she's a force to be reckoned with. It was a very, very tense time. It's a very tense time. It was the first time that you didn't really feel comfortable and free and, you know, not afraid. And so it was pretty bad.

I think the blacks and the whites both were afraid. I press Margaret and everyone else I meet about Edwards and Seal living in Franklin County. How could a community live alongside people who they suspect were involved in a grisly murder for over 40 years? It was the law enforcement. They just, you know, they had a way to do things, you know, to keep from bringing it up and, you know, just postpone and all that kind of stuff.

Some members of the establishment, like Franklin County Sheriff Wayne Hutto, were later found to be sympathetic to or even members of the establishment, like Franklin County Sheriff Wayne Hutto, were later found to be sympathetic to or even members of the Klan. From the moment of the Mississippi Burning or My Burn case onward, the FBI began a process of infiltration that would eventually help to weaken the 1960s Klan to the point where it was difficult to find a member who was not an informant, paid or otherwise. But before that point came, in the late 60s and early 70s, the Klan was able to rule its membership and the citizens it drew from with a relentless threat of violence and terroristic acts.

So much so that Ronnie Harper's predecessor in the position of District Attorney, Lennox Foreman, was directly affected by it. Okay, Mr. Foreman, who was a DA at the time, he was very afraid. And when Lennox had to go to Natchez for a court case or something, which was in his district, he was never alone. He had the highway patrolman with him, or he went to the wait station where the men were working there, law enforcement people. He wanted them to be with him. I think he'd been threatened. I'm sure he'd been threatened. It was all secret, but I think he probably was so afraid, he was afraid of his

shadow. The late former Natchez police chief J.T. Robinson, a man once renowned for standing up to the Klan, but who now sits before me in this interview enfeebled by a stroke, used the exact same wording to describe the former district attorney. What can you tell me about Lennox Foreman? Did you know Lennox Foreman? Yeah, I sure did. Scared of his shadow. Lennox could have put a lot of pressure on the Klan, you know. He just didn't do it. But now, you know, after I got older, I know why. He lost his house, his cattle, and everything else out there in Parkland County. Those sumbitches used to laugh about how they'd drive by and shoot a cow in the belly.

J.T. says that the Klan used to shoot Foreman's cattle with a.22 rifle, wounding them just enough so they would die slowly. With a.22 short, it'd take about a week to die, you know. So you think Lennox Foreman was afraid of the Klan? I sure do. Whether you were black or white, poor or in a high-ranking position in the justice system,

the one word that seemed to sum up the 1960s in Mississippi was fear. Hi there. Are you Mary Lou Webb? I am. Hi Mary Lou, I'm Dave Ridge and I called you from Toronto about the film I'm working on about Thomas Moore's brother. And you said I could look through your archives, your news archives. I said you could go to the library. Mary Lou Webb is a petite white woman with the demeanour of an angry Sunday school teacher.

She's also the owner and editor of the Franklin Advocate, the local newspaper of record in Franklin County. In the days following the national news that James Ford Seale was still alive and free, Mary Lou Webb wrote an article speaking, according to her, on behalf of the community. She writes, in part, The Franklin Advocate has weighed the issues and decided not to revisit the 1960s racial incidents which took place in this county and southwest Mississippi. The editor sees no new evidence, no reason to put a new generation through painful memories. In my mind, now this is my mind and I can do this because I have the paper and I have

to think about everybody's welfare. And my husband and I lived through hell here before. We really did. The whole county lived through this before. Okay. That was years ago. People have moved on. And it doesn't do any good, and it's not going to do that dead man any good for his ancestors to get in a squabble with the whites again. There's no good in that. So you think the people in the town agree with you? By and large.

Really? I do. Because everybody, you know, there's too much trouble in the world to bring this up again. You know, every time I go to an airport and try to buy something from a vendor or I use the restroom and it's clean, there's nobody speaking English. We have given every single solitary job that once belonged to Americans to somebody from overseas. And if we went over there, they wouldn't do that.

They'd have better sense than we do. That's what we ought to be from overseas. And if we went over there, they wouldn't do that. They'd have better sense than we do. That's what we ought to be worrying about. Not something that happened 50 years ago, almost, but something that's happening here and now. You're welcome to look at those things. They're over there in the library. Okay. And you're welcome in this building,

but I just think we're beating a dead dog. We're just beating a dead dog in pursuing the DeMoore case, says Mary Lou Webb. Is it fear of kicking the hornet's nest or anger that it's about to be kicked? You figure out how you're going to do it. You think that's him? Huh? You want to do it? Hell yeah, I'll do it.

We're going back to the intersection and turn around and we're going to approach Jane Ford's seal from the public highway, then I would confront him and tell him, I would tell him who I am and ask him would he be willing to talk to me about the death of Charles Eddie Moore on neutral ground. Anxious to move forward despite the fears and doubts and perceived inaction that have pained him so over the past 40 years, Thomas and I head to James Ford Seal's place, or rather the roadside on the hill above the RV where Seal stays. Even people in Mississippi, Franklin County and other that, when you mention the word James Seale, it's kind of like, you know, this is an outlaw. But yet, he's accepted in this community

because nobody want to encounter him. Well, let's do it. Fuck it. Fuck, let me go. Give me my goddamn stick. I just want the stick to be assembled. Once I make the confrontation, we're going to have to get on out of there now.

Fearing Seal might have a gun at the ready, Thomas decides to surprise him from a safe distance. Hey, sir! Hey, sir! With his gun at the ready, Thomas decides to surprise him from a safe distance. Hey, sir! Hey, sir! Hello? I'm calling for James Ford Sill! I'm looking for James Ford Sill! My name is Thomas James Moore. I'm the brother of Charles Eddie Moore. Some bitch ran inside, a whole bunch of them. All of them.

They ran inside. Why don't you come out and be a man? All I want to do is talk to you, punk. I'm not going to do you like you cowardly did, though, guys. Charles Moore and Henry D. I hope to see you in court. I had followed Thomas at a distance with my camera to give him time to talk to Seal without being a distraction.

After Seal and the others he was with ran inside the RV, Thomas paused for a moment with his walking stick, then began running back to the van. I feel good doing it, bub. I feel good. I shit. The inscription on Charles Eddie Moore's headstone says, Anywhere in glory is all right with me. So confronting him anywhere, anytime, is all right with me. All right.

We'll come back here to James Ford Seals, but next time we wouldn't be alone. And we'd be seeing Charles Marcus Edwards soon too, though not in the way I first expected. What a day. What a day. You have been listening to Episode 3, The Hornet's Nest. Visit cbc.ca.sks to see a detailed map of the locations relevant to the case. And subscribe to SKS on your favorite podcast app. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen.

The series is also produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kampf, Amal Dudlich, Eunice Kim, and executive producer Arif Noorani. And mixed by Cecil Fernandez. Our theme song is Terrorized by Willie King. Now you talk about terror I think you talk about terror People have been terrorized All my days All All my days All my days

Ain't scared of nobody Cause I want my freedom I want my freedom I want my freedom Ain't scared of nobody cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I want my freedom. Ain't scared of nobody cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom now. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.