Someone Knows Something - S3 Episode 5: The Bridge

Episode Date: November 6, 2017

The investigation continues, leading to the doorsteps of more former Klansmen. Then, a surprising revelation from Lampton. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season3/someone-knows-something-season-3-dee-moor-transcripts-listen-1.4360239

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visit Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello? Hey, how you doing? I'm doing pretty good. Look, how you doing? Fine. I'm doing pretty good. Look, I did see Marcus yesterday. Okay, what happened?

Well, I gave him some documents and he's very, very, very nervous about it. What documents did you give him? I gave him the FBI document, about seven, eight pages. All the names, most of the names were blackened out. Yeah. But it's the FBI document that named him and James Ford Seal. That's the only name that I left out. His name and James Ford Seal.

The rest of Ernest Parker and Gilbert and all them guys' names were blacking out. He was trying to unlock the church door, and he was awful nervous, almost dropping the keys. Did he know who you were before you introduced yourself? Well, no. He asked me, who are you? I said, my name is Moore, Thomas James Moore. All right. Okay, when I asked him, did he pick the boys up, he did not answer that question. He did not answer the question when I asked him. And that's when he appeared awful nervous.

I was totally cool, calm, and collective. I mean, it wasn't no threat on my part. I told him, all I want to do is talk to you, and I can send you the document that we gave to him. Okay. I think the guy's ready to turn over. I think he's ready to go, and I think you... I know you're the busy man, but I think you should rush on down there and talk to him.

You're listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Original Podcasts. In Season 3, David Ridgen revisits his 2007 documentary, Mississippi Cold Case. Teaming up with Thomas Moore to investigate the murders of his brother, Charles Moore, and Henry Dee, two 19-year-olds who were killed by the Ku Klux Klan in 1964. This is Episode 5, The Bridge. Now you talk about terror. I think you talk about terror. People have been terrorized. All my days. all my days.

Every trip to Mississippi before and after confronting Edwards at his church turned up new information and kept the case moving forward, if only incrementally. The more I looked through the files, the more I realized how strong the case was against the Klansmen involved. That is, if District Attorney Lennox Foreman had decided to pursue the case. On May 2, 1966, Foreman was told by FBI agents that a Klan informant named Lester Dickerson had come forward. Dickerson told the FBI that while amongst a group of Klansmen and Natchez, he had overheard Ernest Parker confess to chaining Charles Moore to the Jeep engine block and dumping him into the river. One of the other Klansmen present during this admission was James Ford Seal.

The more living witnesses we could find, the better it would be for our case. I needed to find Lester Dickerson, the Klan informant. Hello, tweeting the message after the tone. Oh, hello there. I'm calling from Canada. I'm looking for a man named Lester Dickerson. According to Lester Dickerson's 1966 statement to the FBI, there were a few other people present during Parker's revelation, people identified as Klansmen.

James Ford Seal was unlikely to talk to us. And Parker himself was dead, having been killed when a tractor he was driving flipped over in March 1996 on Parker's Island. But there were two other Klansmen mentioned that were still alive. George Rouse and Lane C. Murray, or L.C. as he was known. Hello. I was able to get in touch with L.C. Murray on his cell phone. L.C. had morphed from upper-level Klansman in the 1960s to private investigator later in life, undertaking contracts for various departments of justice, according to Dunn-Lampton and others. And L.C. seemed willing to help at first.

You know, I've got nothing to hide about it. I wouldn't ever need any violence or anything, you know. But if I didn't find time, too much, I'd be glad to talk to you. Just call me Fred. Thank you, sir. Every time I called L.C., he seemed just as friendly and eager to help. Hello? Oh, hi, is this Mr. Murray? Yes, sir. Hi, Mr. Murray, it's David Ridgen.

I called you a couple days ago about possibly getting together there. But there was always an excuse not to meet. Are you back in Jackson yet, sir? No, I'm not. All right, well, I hope I can maybe hook up with you another trip. I would continue calling LC Murray, but he was very good at saying nothing. Bye-bye. Thank you.

Bye-bye. I wonder if I should take my other little bag, too. Probably not going to find the old bastard, anyway. I turned my attention toward the other former Klansman. Hi there. Looking for somebody that lives down here named George Rouse. You got him, I did. Here, Mr. Rouse?

Nice to meet you, Mr. Rouse. My name's David. Rouse is repairing a door frame when I walk up to him. White mustache, blue t-shirt, ball cap, toothpick and mouth. He waves a screwdriver in front of him as he talks. I'm from Canada. I'm working on a documentary, a film down here. And I was wondering if I could just ask you a couple of questions because there's a case that happened in 1964 down here in Mississippi involving the murder of Charles Moore and Henry D.

Do you remember that case? I'm not going to come in. Do you remember the case, though? I'm not going to come in. I'm sorry. But the people that was involved in it were personal friends of mine. All I can tell you is this. I wasn't involved in none of it. I don't believe in that kind of shit. I don't believe in none of mine. All I can tell you is this, I wasn't involved in none of it. I don't believe in

that kind of shit. I don't believe in none of it. But they were personal friends. I went to school with Ernest Parker. I was raised with him. And you're standing on land that belongs to his people right now at one time. You're probably an honest good Christian man, but let me tell you this right off the bat, I trust no newspaper people, you understand? They will distort the truth. Not all of them, but a good majority. I've seen it done. Can I show you the document where your name is mentioned at least? Sure. You can see what it says. See this part? Lester Dickerson stated he had heard Ernest Parker of Natchez, Mississippi, admit in the presence of James Seal, George Rouse, you, L.C. Murray, and possibly others,

that he, Parker, was the individual who put the Jeep block and chains on one of the Negroes and jumped and threw him into the river basically been on that island been on palmyra island yeah i call that davis island too right yeah best deer hunting in the world on that island do you know this guy here james seal yeah yeah i don't know where lester dickerson is you remember that guy too yeah you don't know where Lester Dickerson is. You remember that guy, too? Yeah. You don't deny that that conversation happened, then? No comment on that, no. Yeah.

Because you lied to be an agent, FBI. I would tell you if I was. So do you remember hearing anything from anybody about that case at the time that you would comment on? No, sir. I sure don't. It just wouldn't be a good thing for me to comment on. Right. It really wouldn't because,

well, you know what I'm trying to say. My sister-in-law's first cousin, they're trying to pick him up right now on account of Dees. Remember Dees? Something happened to him out there in Franklin County. Henry Dee?

Yeah. And who's that? Who's that? Your sister-in-law's first cousin. Oh. Charlie Edwards. Oh, right. We end the conversation,

and Rouse promises to answer my questions by nodding or shaking his head next time I meet him. I'm going to talk to you one day about something, but you're going to ask again, despite years of trying, and George has now passed away. I finally receive a reply to my message for Lester Dickerson, but it wasn't the news I was hoping for. Lester Dickerson's daughter tells me that her father had passed on some time before. Dickerson's family was interested to know what their father's exact connection

to the K clan was. We always knew there was something. My dad, on his left arm, had a tattoo down by the bottom. And dad's arm, the tattoo, it had RRR on it. But that's the extent of it. Like, I knew nothing. Do you really want to know this stuff, right? I mean, yeah, I do. I would like to just know what...

And my dad was like... I mean, me and my dad were very, very, very close. Yeah. I mean, I would just to just know what... And my dad was like... I mean, me and my dad were very, very, very close. Yeah. I mean, I would just like to know, yeah. Right. Okay, well, your dad was in the Klan at one point. The KKK was written on his arm. It's written here with the tattoo, actually. It says that he had it changed to RRR. I guess he decided to get out, and he came forward on his own account,

and there's a quote in here of why he came forward. It was done as a means for getting things straightened out. I mean, I would like to know a little more and find out everything that happened. I promised to help her search for more information about her father. My dad was an awesome person. I promised to help her search for more information about her father. My dad was an awesome person. I tell you, my dad would have given the shirt off his back to anybody who needed it. Well, it's interesting.

I wish that he had been alive to talk to today. I'd like to... Oh, don't we all. Dickerson's information could have been the break the case needed, but incredibly, District Attorney Lennox Foreman still chose not to act in 1966. Foreman advised the FBI that he still did not feel he had sufficient information to justify presenting the case to a grand jury, adding that he hoped more witnesses would eventually come forward. In light of this, the FBI closed their investigation into the Dean Moore case, adding that he hoped more witnesses would eventually come forward. In light of this, the FBI closed their investigation into the Dean Moore case officially in May 1966.

It's August 2006 now, over 40 years after the case was originally closed. I've been in Washington. What you doing there? Just putting out fires. There's just more crap going on. And Lampton has something else to tell me. He's not very good at keeping secrets. He may have finally found a way to prove federal jurisdiction

in the Dean Moore case. Yeah, I mean, I think we can prove this thing happened in the National Forest, didn't we? Wow. Okay, well then, something must have happened there. I don't feel real confident because that's fairly secret,

but we wouldn't talk to Edmonds. Lampton had gone to see Charles Edwards after all, less than two weeks after Thomas and I had seen him on the front lawn of the Bunkley Church, and Lampton's meeting with him went very well. Yeah, I think Mr. Cantor made the right decision. Oh, yeah. Goddamn, sir, I'm proud of you. Goddamn, I'm proud of you.

Edwards had confessed his role in picking up Dean Moore and torturing them to Dunn-Lampton. Lampton tells Thomas about it first. He said he picked him up? Yeah. So he owned up that he picked him up? Yeah. Are you going to ask him to take you to the location? Hell yeah.

And he told you he'll cooperate fully, huh? Yes. You don't want to go to jail? Shit, I wouldn't either, goddamn. I want to drop my social security too? Shit.

But I'll be in touch. Put things a-movin'. Okay. If Seal were to be indicted and the case went to trial, Edwards would testify against him in federal court.

Bye-bye. So he accepted immunity? Yep. Wow. That told Lampton he ripped up the pages Thomas gave him at the Bunkley Church and didn't read them. I mean, who knows about his psychology? But, uh, I mean, that's the first positive thing that's been happening in years. I mean, if this thing is over, it'll be over one way or the other. Despite what Lampton is saying here, it isn't immunity exactly that the government had going on with Edwards. In the USA, witnesses have the right under the Fifth Amendment to not incriminate themselves, and that means they can refuse to answer questions if a truthful answer would incriminate them.

In some circumstances, though, people can be ordered to answer questions in American courts. In those situations, the witness's testimony cannot be used against him or her in any criminal proceeding. And that's what happened with Edwards. So he's either just not prosecuted anybody, or cut the loaf in half. Still, Lampton obviously has mixed feelings for not being able to prosecute both Edwards and Seal. Are you able to tell me what Edwards said about why they picked those boys up at that particular time?

He said that they were after these because they thought they were looking for guns. Edwards left the beating and interrogation of Dean Moore to search the basement of the Roxy Baptist Church for guns. But there were no guns. Well, I appreciate your time and your frankness, and let's keep in touch. All right. We'll talk again.

Bye-bye. Bye-bye. Several weeks later, outside the James O. Eastland Federal Courthouse. What's going on Thomas? Well, we were going into the federal courthouse in Jackson, Mississippi, where I would testify in front of a grand jury in the murder case of Charles Moore and Henry D. 42 years ago. It's September 2006 and 42 years after D. and Moore were murdered and a grand jury has finally been called to look into their case.

Grand juries allow prosecutors to gather evidence from witnesses and at the end of the process, indictments are usually handed up. The case will then either go to trial or not. I waited for Thomas and Dunn Lampton outside of the courthouse. Hey David, it was great. Great. I feel good. After 42 years I feel that I have did something. And so I want to thank you because I think there's no doubt in my mind that the three of us made all this happen. I wish you Godspeed. I'm not going to be bonding too much on the phone.

I don't believe that. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you, sir. Wow, man. What a fucking day. I did it. It was a great shot, man. I mean, we did it, man. We did it. We did it. Damn. This is the result of 15 months of work that you and I performed. And I'm so grateful, I'm so thankful, and I feel good.

I mean, where do we go from here? I don't know. But at this time and this time in my life, I'm more, this is one of the most exciting times that I've ever had. If there is an indictment, Lampton will need to familiarize himself with the geography of the area and potential witnesses. So the next day, Thomas, Dunn, Lampton, and I took a trip down to Meadville to take a tour of the case.

The way I look at it, you're Wyatt Earp, and he's Doc Holliday. That's the way I look at it, you're Wyatt Earp and he's Doc Holliday. That's the way I look at it. But I wouldn't have done anything if you hadn't come to see me. I understand. And you're saying that if David hadn't called you, then you wouldn't have done anything. Right, because I didn't trust anybody down here. When I first seen him, I didn't want to trust him. I said, I don't know who this guy is.

He may get out on the road and kill me. I don't know what he's going to do. But then we built that. This is the best and the right time. The right people involved. There couldn't have been anybody else. As we get into Franklin County, we pass by an abandoned part of the highway

with a derelict concrete bridge over a river. And Thomas' mood turns darker. This would have been the route that they drove down. The old highway went right through here, the long white bridge. And there was a couple of times me and Noah walked down this road and some white guys be drinking, and they pulled behind us, and we'd jump in the ditch.

One night they kept on messing with us so we threw some rocks in the windshield and come back with about five cars and we had to jump off that bridge down there. Bridges in the south represent a lot of shit. A lot of people got hung off bridges and shit. Dunn, Thomas and I enter Meadville and pass a small memorial sign that Thomas and I had built on the site where Dee and Moore were picked up. A small sign with some flowers. The first sign we put here was ripped down and thrown in the ditch. The second appeared to have blown down. This third iteration seemed to be

still standing but it needed some upkeep. Thomas put up another memorial sign at his homestead, but it eventually disappeared. This is the memorial right here. I saw that. It's a taste of breeze. Right up here is the little gas station was somewhere. Would have been right up here. Off Newport? No, no, right there. The cleaners were right here, and this is what Joe Lee dropped them off at. This is the outskirt of Meville. We stop in town, and Lampton asks to speak to Thomas privately. Since the chances of the case going to trial had become more and more real,

Dunn had become more cautious about what he said around me because he knew I was always recording. Just remember, we don't have a gun among the four of us. But he wasn't always serious. I'm going to save myself. I'm going to get my dog on sausage. And then, Lampton gave us a tour of his own.

After Edwards turned into a witness, he was asked to indicate where certain events had taken place, prime among them where D.N. Moore had been taken after being abducted from Meadville. Edwards took the FBI and local authorities deep into the Homochitto National Forest on several gravel back roads. There, he pinpointed the exact location where Henry D. and Charles Moore were beaten and interrogated.

He said, we're right up in here. We're standing in the middle of the beating site of Charles Moore and Henry D. Two small plastic yellow flags had been pushed into the ground by the FBI, showing the spot off the narrow roadside that Edwards had indicated. We knew that D.N. Moore had been stood up against pine trees and tortured. Informant Ernest Gilbert's statement said they were tied. Thomas walks into the woods up an abrupt hill, overgrown

with vines and shrubs, determined to find the exact trees. The idea to have two guys tied to and beaten at the same time, tie a coat together. I'm saying that I believe that that is the exact spot right there. Those two trees. So if these two flags represent where they walked up in here, this is a disruption in the growth of that tree. Those are indications that something happened at an early age of this tree, because once a tree is scarred up, it never just goes away. So something happened here, in my mind, that caused these two trees to be different. Thomas knows about scars, and he takes pieces of bark as a memento.

After, we head back to Jackson, then to our homes, to wait for news of what might come from the grand jury. I never dreamed, I never believed that after 42 years, we would be this close to getting it true.

It would be another four months until we'd hear any decision reached by the grand jury. Four long months. I feel like a prisoner. I feel like a goddamn locked up, bullfucked up. Like a mushroom, kept in theed up, just like a mushroom. Kept in the dark and fed a lot of bullshit. All this bullshit here is just not allowing me to be who I want to be. It's January 2007 now, and Thomas and I are waiting in yet another hotel room for yet another phone call from Dunn-Lampton.

I mean, the wait is okay if the news is right at the end, but if the news ain't right, I don't know what the hell I'm going to do. I don't know. Word was that the grand jury was going to reach its decision, but if they decided against an indictment, then we'd be right back where we started.

2007. January. And we're dealing with a crime that was committed 42 years ago. It was the 27th of January. And we're dealing with a crime that was committed 42 years ago. Hello? Thomas? Yes. Don Lincoln.

Yes, sir. A couple things, I think they're gonna let us proceed tomorrow with the indictment. Okay. I doubt it. I think they're gonna let me bring you and Thelma to Washington. We would leave sometime tomorrow. Uh-huh. I just have to tell you more in the morning.

But I don't know that for sure. I talked to Thelma. Let me ask you a question here. So you're saying it's absolute that you're going to be able to indict them all? Thomas, has there been anything absolute? Nothing was certain as we loaded into the rental van and traveled into the night and on through the next day towards Washington, D.C. And then, partway through Virginia, the call came. James Ford Seal had been indicted on federal kidnapping charges and arrested. We picked up speed, and Thomas cried for the first time, he says, in 50 years.

Hello? Then he called his wife, May Lee, to tell her the good news. Well, it's all over, and I just couldn't help but cry. I've got my composure back some, but I just... Finally, finally, hopefully Henry D. and Charles Morgan said, thank God. When news broke of the indictment and the impending trial, phone calls began flooding in,

many of them requests for interviews. So if you did get a new call, I would really appreciate it. Thank you. 3-8-4, message erased. Ha ha ha. Message erased, you son of a bitch. No one called me from Kansas City. I was always trying to contact them.

That's that New York Times or some shit, 4-4. We're about 50 miles outside of Washington, D.C. right now, driving like hell. We done got all kinds of goddamn phone calls. CNN, NBC, ABC, fucking whoever else. Our phones didn't stop ringing all the way to Washington and afterwards for over a week. Hi everyone, this is the two-minute warning. The next day, at the Department of Justice,

Alberto Gonzalez, Attorney General for the USA at the time, stood at the podium. Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy once said that nations around the world look to the United States for leadership, quote, not merely by strength of arms, but by strength of our convictions. One of those convictions is that racially motivated violence will not be tolerated and will be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Accordingly, we are announcing today that James Ford Seal

has been indicted by a federal grand jury for two counts of kidnapping resulting in death and one count of a conspiracy for his participation in the abductions and murder of two 19-year-old African American men in 1964, Henry D. and Charles Moore. If convicted, Mr. Seal will face a maximum term of life imprisonment on each count of the indictment. Public and governmental interest in the murders of Moore and D. had been renewed by the activism of the brother of one of the victims.

That brother, Thomas Moore, is here with us today. Then, it was Dunn-Lampton's turn. The most important factor in my mind was Thomas Moore coming to see me. At that time, I had not really looked at the file. And I had, you know, the case had lain dormant for years, and I thought that there was nothing we could do about it. And finally, then-FBI director Robert Mueller. These tragic murders are straight from among the darkest page of our country's history. And while sadly we cannot right the wrongs of the past,

we can pursue justice to the end. And we will, no matter how long it takes until every living suspect is called to answer for their crimes. Thomas Moore is here with C réalisateur David Ridgen de la CBC. After more than four decades, a man is in jail awaiting trial. The first sure step has been taken toward justice. Alison Smith, CBC News, Washington. Look like TV? Yeah. That's good. All right, let's go to Al Jazeera, dude.

What is that? What is that? What is Al Jazeera? What is that? It's the Arab TV network. From CBC to Al Jazeera to CNN. Yes, we're here downstairs. We're for an interview with Palazan. This is for David Ridgen and Thomas Moore. Once the media whirlwind died down somewhat, we went back to waiting. It was another four months for our next trip to Mississippi for the trial of James Ford Seal. Oh, that coffee smells good. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished?

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How you doing? How you doing? Two of Henry D.'s three remaining sisters, Thelma Collins and the now late Maynell Byrd, came to Jackson ahead of the trial. U.S. Attorney Dunn-Lampton invited all of us to his office to discuss jury selection. Been in this office quite a bit. Yeah. Have a seat, ladies. You sit over there.

You sit, well, you sit right there. I sit over here, I guess. To select the 12 jurors for the trial, 300 people were contacted across the state of Mississippi. I've never tried a case that's this old. I've never tried a case where there's so much evidence that is no longer available. If it depends on the jury, it depends how Edwards does in the witness. So much of it depends on him. I told Thomas that I would do everything I could do, and I can't promise a conviction, but I promise you a trial and every effort. Over the next few days at the James O. Eastland Courthouse, jury selection with African-American federal judge Henry T. Wingate presiding. One time during jury selection in court,

Seal strode in wearing blue shirt and khaki pants, shook hands with his legal team, poured himself a glass of water and sat down. As jurists were called and evaluated, excused or accepted, Seal played with his water, sloshing it back and forth, and made a little soft accordion out of post-it notes on the defense table in front of him. On another occasion, Seal entered court from the wrong door and walked within five feet of Thomas Moore. Seal waved at members of the court audience and seemed quite comfortable, though Judge Wingate cautioned against that happening again. Later in the well-worn lobby of the Edison Walthall Hotel,

where we're staying in downtown Jackson, Mississippi, Thomas and I are sitting drinking coffee out of styrofoam cups in the lobby. Suddenly, a door opens and out walks Charles Marcus Edwards. At this point, it had been almost a year since Thomas and I had visited Edwards at his church in Bunkley. Thomas and I watch him pass by and out in Bunkley. Thomas and I watch him pass by and out of sight down the hall toward the elevator. Edwards is staying at the same hotel. In fact, three doors down from our own rooms and just steps from the Jackson Courthouse where

Edwards will be the star witness in the trial against James Ford Seal. James Ford Seal, on the other hand, was staying at the Madison County Jail. We're standing at the Janmore Eastland Federal Courthouse in Jackson, Mississippi, waiting on the arrival of James Ford C. He arrived here every day in a police vehicle. Often an African-American officer would help Seal shuffle into the back of the building in his cuff and ankle chains, prison orange jumpsuit, and flip-flops. Thomas and I watched alongside a row of photographers and a dour security guard in a flak jacket. The first time I ever looked at him, that close, face, looked at his face.

He didn't look at me, so I guess he didn't want nobody seeing him. I think I wanted to say something, but it's not the right time. I didn't think it was the right time to interfere with the proceeding. But my time will come. After hours of preliminary hearings and jury selection, the trial began on May 30, 2007. During those preliminary hearings, it was determined that confidential FBI informant Ernest Gilbert's statement

detailing the events of the DeMoore murder as he heard them from his fellow Klansmen would not be admissible into the trial. Since the eyewitnesses in the Gilbert statement were all dead, CO would not be able to be confronted by them or cross-examine them. Whatever the verdict is, Mr. Simpkins would never be the same. I'm sitting in a hotel room with Thomas and Thelma. If it's a guilty verdict, then the people would look and say, well, Mr. Simpkins, you done come a long way.

I cannot see how a person could do a person that bad and then can walk around and smile. I can't see. I think Markle had trouble with it. I don't think Seal had no trouble with it. He ain't having no trouble now. He sits over there and he looks like he don't really care. All through court he been laying over the benches and waving in the back. I just don't know what kind of, I don't know how his heart is. I just would like to know what kind of heart he got. The prosecution went after C.O. on two kidnapping charges and one of conspiracy.

Paige Fitzgerald was the co-lead federal prosecutor on the case, along with Dunn-Lampton. At age 40, Fitzgerald is smart, well-spoken, and straightforward. She lays out the basics of the case for the jury, showing them the same chunk of 16mm film that started me on my quest to find Thomas Moore in the summer of 2004, the film of the wrong body. The finding of a negro male was noted and forgotten. The search was not for him. The prosecution, amidst a mountain of other goals, had to prove that the beatings occurred in the Homochita National Forest. They had to prove that there was interstate transit of the victims

across the Mississippi River. They had to establish and prove that Edwards was a believable and truthful witness after years of denying anything to do with the crime. And they had to show that Edwards had participated in the beating, the search for the alleged guns at the Roxy Church, and as it was revealed by Edwards' confession to the DOJ in 2006, that he had also heard James Seal talk about what had happened to Dean Moore afterwards. Edwards, essentially, became the only living witness to all aspects of the case.

If he did what they accused him of, he needs to go down. During the trial, Thomas and I also met, for the first time, witnesses who had been brought in to testify, like the Reverend R.W. Middleton, a former acquaintance of Seals, who used to be the pastor at the Bunkley Baptist Church and who used to live on pastor at the Bunkley Baptist Church, and who used to live on Archie Prather's property, where many Klan meetings were held. They didn't call it a Klan, they called it Rod and Gun Club.

Middleton told the FBI in 1964 that 10 to 14 carloads of men would come each week. Would you describe James Seal as a violent person? I would prefer to use the word unstable. Middleton testified at the trial that he saw Seale with a sawed-off shotgun, similar to the one that Edwards would later testify was used to threaten Dean Moore. But of all the people to testify during the trial, Charles Marcus Edwards was the main event. Edwards testifies that he was a member of the White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan in the Bunkley

Clavern, and that Clyde Seal, James Ford Seal's father, had sworn him in. He says he signed a clan constitution and took an oath, and that's why he lied about his involvement in D. and Moore's murders for many years. Edwards also testifies that it was his idea to target Henry D., and that it was discussed at one of their regular weekly Klan meetings. D. lived just down the road from Edwards in the Kirby community and became a target of the Klan because he wore a black bandana on his head. The Klan also knew that Dee had recently returned from Chicago, which apparently added to their suspicion. On the morning of May 2nd, 1964, Clyde Seal, Archie Prather, and a man named Curtis Dunn came to see Edwards, saying that Dee had been seen

downtown. Edwards, who is working his garden, drops his hoe and gets in the back of their truck, riding the roughly seven miles to Meadville. When they arrive, they stop at the Franklin Bank to see ahead of them James Seal in his white Volkswagen. Henry. comes out of the bank and somewhere after that hooks up with Charles Moore. Edwards goes on to say that Charles Moore was just a victim of circumstance. Edwards then points out on a large map the route they took down Providence Road to reach the backwoods of the Homo Cheater National Forest. Edwards tells the jury about beating Charles and Henry with switches the size of a finger and interrogating them. And he admits that he, Curtis Dunn, and Clyde Seal did most of the whipping. James Seal holds the gun. During the

beating, Edwards asks Dee if he is right with the Lord. I figured he wasn't going to make it, Edwards tells the court. James Seal later admits to Edwards that he had personally participated in transporting Dee and Moore across state lines through Louisiana before brutally murdering them. But then, midway through Edward's court appearance, something remarkable happens. He said that he would, well, he first said he would like to address the court. And then when the judge gave him permission to do that, he said he wanted to tell the Moore family and the Dee family that he apologized and he's sorry for what happened.

I think he cracked it. I think his voice cracked it. I can't undo what was done 30 years ago, Edwards tells a stunned, silent courtroom audience. And I'm sorry for that, and I ask you all's forgiveness. I ask you to forgive me for my part in this crime. The issue of forgiveness weighed heavily on Thomas. A spirited reverend from Butte, Mississippi named Ricky O'Quinn, who had attended the trial, could see Thomas' struggle and invited him to a service at his church.

Muhammad Gagande said one day that to really get ahead of your enemies is to love them when they hate you. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., the great advocate for freedom of all mankind, stated that the image of Charles Moore, went together to see Henry D's grave. They don't have a stone to mark it. His sister don't even know who it says that now. It's kind of sad. This is awful shocking to see Henry D.'s grave here. But at the same time, it's a great blessing. Thomas turns to Jeffrey and looks him in the eye.

But I'm saying when you get an opportunity to correct some wrong, then you take that opportunity. Back in Jackson, Thomas dug deeper into the idea of forgiving Edwards. It took a man to say that, you know what I mean? He realized, I think, I mean, what he did is wrong. What he did, and for me to go around and hold it that I'm not going to forgive, that's not going to bring child more than he would be right. If I continue my belief in my God, then I got to forgive. And so Thomas came to the decision, after consulting with family, friends and the Bible, that he would speak once again to the Klansman Charles Edwards, the man he struggled so long to finally confront

at the church, and the man who kidnapped and tortured his brother. Thomas knocked on Edwards' hotel room door but no one appeared to be there, so we sat next to the hotel pool waiting for Edwards to return to his room. The microphone on my camera had snapped off just minutes before and I had just finished rigging a small voice recorder to the camera with duct tape when Edwards rounded the corner. Thomas sprang into action. Hey, bud. how you doing? It took a big man to do what you did yesterday.

I am. I'm turning to Charlie. Edward says he's truly sorry as they shake hands. I appreciate what you did. I stayed there this last week, and I wanted to move on in my life. And I believe in the same God that you believe in. 18th chapter of Matthew, Peter asks how many times you used to hear your brother. He actually said, I've been given several times in Jesus Christ, and not only several times, but several, several times. So you ought to do it.

God bless you. God bless you too. I hope this is closure. I hope this is closure, Edwards says. Did it. I think it is. In all this time, I've been not talking to you. Yeah, I know. I just want to.

Okay. Appreciate it, brother. Thanks, sir. And I am, I'm truly charged. And I've lived with this junk for 42 years. You know, for months. And it wasn't a day in my life that I didn't think about it. And your brother was just over there.

He was a victim of circle. Shouldn't have ever happened. I got caught up in trouble that I didn't need to be in. God bless you. God bless you. And a short time later, Henry's sister, Thelelma Collins would also forgive Edwards for his role in Henry D's death. I'm truly sorry. You're Henry's sister? Yes. Well, I knew Henry. I called him to town a lot of times. Yes.

Edward says he knew Henry and remembers giving him rides into town. I'm sorry it came to this. I shouldn't have gotten mixed up. I can't undo that. No, sir, you can't. I am sorry. Yes. I couldn't have imagined when I began this journey three years before that we'd ever reach a point that would look like this. And I probably one day will see her, but not right now.

You got to be tearing up a little bit, buddy. Huh? You got me tearing up a bit. First buddy. Huh? You got me tearing up a bit. First time. You got to be a man. Well, we're going to court another day. The prosecution and the defense rested their case yesterday. So the verdict is near to come any time, within the next

six or seven, eight, ten hours, I don't know. This is the beginning of the final pages of the final chapter. However, on June 14, 2007, just as the jury begins deliberating, there's a commotion outside of the courthouse that seems to be centered around our hotel, the Edison Walthall. The street is blocked off at either end by a police blockade with flashing lights and cop cars. I grab my camera and try to figure out what's going on. Ahead, a man in full bomb disposal gear disappears around a corner into the parking garage connected to the hotel.

I ask the nearest officer for more information. Sir, can you just tell me what happened? Suspicious package, that's all I can tell you right now. Do you know if a threat was called in or if someone just noticed something? Any of your employees come, they can't go this way. They can't come to the parking lot or nothing, okay? They'll help us out, all right? It's for their safety. I go back inside the hotel and enter the parking garage from there.

Ahead, I can see the bomb disposal officer in his huge green suit walking up the ramp towards something on the ground. I walk out into the garage with my camera, but am quickly ordered back by a number of police. The suspicious package is sitting next to my Ontario-plated rental van. You have been listening to Episode 5, The Bridge. Visit cbc.ca slash sks for more information about the Klan hierarchy and a list of the people associated with the case. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The series is also produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kampf, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim, and executive producer Arif Noorani,

and mixed by Cecil Fernandez. Our theme song is Terrorized by Willie King. Now you talk about terror I think you talk about terror People have been terrorized All my days. All my days. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound That saved a wretch like me I once was lost, but now I'm found.

Was blind, but now I see. That alright? That okay? That was great. Thanks very much.