Someone Knows Something - S3 Episode 6: Reckoning

Episode Date: November 6, 2017

In the aftermath of the Dee-Moore case, questions remain. Years later, David and Thomas return to Mississippi to meet old friends, mourn those who have passed and to try meeting the Klansman turned church deacon, Charles Marcus Edwards, one more time. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season3/someone-knows-something-season-3-dee-moor-transcripts-listen-1.4360239

Does it feel like years since you felt good about a mortgage rate? Let Dominion Lending Centers help. If your mortgage is coming up for renewal, we can find a better rate and help you save. It's your mortgage renewal. Get the right rate for you. Find a mortgage expert in your area at dominionlending.ca. This is a CBC Podcast. These are blackberries. Eat them.

Mmm, good. We used to pick these and make blackberry pies. It's been 40 years since I picked blackberries. 40 years since I picked blackberries. 40 years. We're standing at the edge of a gravel laneway, looking out over a knot of trees and vines. The tent top right here is the house that Charles Moore and I were born in. It's a real small house, no inside bathroom. We had three rooms, a bedroom, mama's room, and the kitchen. Up ahead, in the middle of the bush with trees growing out of it,

a rotting structure with rusty roof mostly detached and bowed over like a bedraggled weeping figure. A mildewed rocking chair, Thomas' mother Maisie's, sinks into the tilted remains of a front porch, almost frozen in time. Well, I came from Vietnam in 1966. I made it from

the road to about here. Mama must have seen me coming. She started running down the hill, way back up there, running down the hill. She almost fell, arms out. I dropped my duffel bag. I took my bag off

and threw it down here because I started running towards her. When we embraced each other, she was crying and I was crying. So glad to see each other. I was glad I made it back from Vietnam. And of course she was glad that her only son was back alive. I'm proud to be here because nothing happened here but good. Colorado, New York City, Germany, Vietnam, Korea, Panama, Spain. No place I have ever been, have ever been able to wipe out the good memories and the bad that I experienced over here. So this is the place that Mama used to sit on the steps, on the porch, and she'd be crying late in the afternoon.

I would ask her, what's wrong? She'd say, well, I'm just hoping Charles Moore walked down the road. So I wouldn't even ask him where he'd been. That's all, man. You're listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Original Podcasts. In Season 3, David Ridgen revisits his 2007 documentary, Mississippi Cold Case. Teaming up with Thomas Moore to investigate the murders of his brother, Charles Moore, and Henry Dee, two 19-year-olds who were killed by the Ku Klux Klan in 1964. This is Episode 6, Reckoning.

Now you talk about terror. I think you talk about terror. People have been terrorized all my days, all my days. Thank you for that live report. And a suspicious package was found near Federal Court where the SEAL trial is going on. It was in the Edison Wampa Hotel where many of the people involved in the SEAL case are staying. Farm threats, Klansmen, Jesus. It's June 14, 2007, and we're watching the local news. Tonight's lead story, the jury in James Ford Seal's trial has now been deliberating for 90 minutes.

A hand-delivered package about a foot long was found near my van in the hotel parking garage, loaded up with papers and racial epithets. It was a bomb threat. Police said much of what was written inside targeted the U.S. government, but it didn't stop the trial. Bomb threat over, Thomas and Henry D.'s sisters are sitting in a room of the Edison Walthall Hotel in Jackson. My brother Charles, you were not a wrong body. While we waited for the jury to reach a verdict on the James Ford seal trial, Thomas made use of his nervous energy to work out a statement that he wanted to read.

And you have never been forgotten. Because you saw more of my brother. Amen. That's good. Man, that's the good remarks. Both the families of Henry D. and Charles Moore seemed confident that Seal would be found guilty. And I'd like to think the same, but anything can happen. The case hinged on the testimony of former Klansman turned church deacon Charles Marcus Edwards.

It was astonishing testimony, but would the jury believe it? We wouldn't have to wait much longer to find out. Hello? Thomas? Yeah. It's Paige. There's a verdict. Come over as fast as you can. Okay. Come on. Come on, y'all. I gotta get this band one more time. To me, a quick verdict means you get the verdict. Yeah, you turn it off. There's a little light of mine I'm gonna let it shine

Oh, this little light of mine On June 14, 2007, at 6.30 p.m., James Ford Seal was convicted by unanimous decision on charges of conspiracy and two counts of kidnapping where the victims were not released alive. Let it shine, let it shine. Remember what Johnny Cash said, that God's going to cut you down. You're going to run, but you can't hide.

One of Seal's attorneys, a man by the name of George Lucas, wasn't happy with the jury's decision. We're very disappointed with the verdict. We expect to appeal. What did this case come down to, to you guys? I think the credibility of Charles Edwards. And so you guys said you will appeal? Without doubt. Those appeals would eventually be exhausted and Seal would remain in prison.

He was given three concurrent life sentences to be served out at the federal penitentiary at Terre Haute, Indiana. How is your client? How is your client? He's very disappointed as well. James Ford Seal would serve four years of his three life sentences, then die in prison on August 2, 2011, at the age of 76. I'm so much. But I helped out. And I'm thankful and glad. All right, Mr. Moore, just real quick, just your reaction. As I stand here today,

I am satisfied that what we did has caused the verdict to be run today as guilty. There's no doubt in my mind. When David and I came down here and woke up some ghosts, shook the bushes, were called troublemakers, but we never fear. So I want everybody, I want the world to see that it took a little old black guy that came from this little old raggedy place to Franklin County. On Charles Moore's grave, there was a sign, there was a thing that Mama had put on there where he said, Anywhere in glory.

I can imagine right now him and Henry did probably walk around rejoicing. Are you? I am. For their sake. You're rejoicing. I'm rejoicing for justice in this country, but the joy has been coming a long time. Co-lead prosecutor Paige Fitzgerald, who was instrumental to the success of the case, wouldn't speak on record during the proceedings.

Hey Paige, maybe give me a quote now. That's all. We're just very, very, very pleased that the jury was able to reach a verdict on this case and come back and render some justice for the families in this case. It's been a long, long time coming, but the wheels of justice may have grinded slowly in this case, but they finally, finally reached where they needed to be. Good job.

Thanks, Dave. Is this one of the last civil rights cases we're gonna see in Mississippi? They will become, obviously, fewer and fewer. It was just a remarkable set of circumstances that we're going to see in Mississippi. They will become, obviously, fewer and fewer. It was just a remarkable set of circumstances that we were able to pursue this case. Mississippi has made huge strides, lots and lots of progress. I got a final stop with me before I get out of here,

and me and Charlemont will have a few words. My mom, I want her to be resting in peace Before Thomas returned to Colorado and I returned to Canada, we drove the now familiar road from Jackson down to Meadville. Like Thomas said, our multiple returns to Franklin County had stirred up some ghosts. But can they ever be truly laid to rest? And maybe they shouldn't be. We return to the Meadville Cemetery

where Thomas' mother, father, and brother Charles are buried. Well, I guess I'm going to have to address my dad at first, since I never had an opportunity to know him. Dad, I think you'll be proud of me today. For what I tried to do. I was probably about two and a half years old when you died. But you left two boys. We lived 18 years, 19 years together. Mama did a good job.

I think you'd be proud of that. So I hope you're proud of what I did. I see you on the other side. Mama, for you, I wish you were here today. I wish you were here today. I wish you were here today to witness what I had a part of doing. I want to thank you for what you did for me. The love, the care, pushing me to be somebody. And too, I will see you on the other side. Today I'm going to address you as Mr. Charles Eddie Moore.

I always wanted to do something to revenge your death. I wanted to kill people. I wanted to hurt people. But Mama's word kept me focused and eventually changed my way of thinking. You know I know your love, but not a whole world know who Charles Morell is. I've thought about the pain, I thought about you crying, I thought about your hollering, I thought about how you probably wished that I was there. You know, they said if you were forgotten, a forgotten body, but I guarantee you today you're not forgotten.

I still love you and I'm always missing you. So brother, you take care. I'll see you on the high ground. So long. In June 2007, mere days after the seal verdict was handed down, U.S. Attorney Dunn Lampton was in a Jeep accident at his Muscadine grape farm, which left him partially paralyzed, the results of a severely bruised spinal cord. Dunn never fully healed from this injury.

In 2009, it forced him into retirement and on August 17th, 2011, Dunn-Lampton, the man that Thomas and I thought of as a sort of mirthful, swaggering Wyatt Earp, passed away. He was just 60 years old. What do you think of all this, Owen? Well, it's... It's sad. I... I wish I could have... I wish we could have gotten a... a bit more together for our memorial.

But, uh... I suppose... I suppose... as long as we remember them. Back at Parker's Landing, Mississippi in 2017 with my son. I've lived and breathed the Dean Moore case for 13 years, most of his life. He's been dragged through Mississippi many times, knows the case well,

and has met many of the people involved, including Charles Marcus Edwards. But this is the first time he's visited what Thomas and I call the kill site. Do you think they would have been happy to see the flowers you put out for them? I'm sure. I just wish I could have met them. Me too. Me too.

It's less creepy here now than it was at the beginning but I still feel creeped out down here. It's a lovely place. Lots of egrets. Lovely wildlife. All sorts of beautiful natural wonders. God, you sound like me. Thomas and I have stayed in close touch in all the years that followed, speaking on the phone at least once a week, if not every day. But you would never have that opportunity to do work like you and I did because it was a one-time affair. But it was clear throughout that something still felt unfinished, perhaps unanswered. So in 2011, we decided that it was time to make one more trip down south together. We're going to Meaver, Mississippi.

My old hometown. Main Street of Meaver. It looked the same to me, other than a couple of stores that had been restored. I don't really know how much the citizens in Meadville have changed or want to change. I don't know. I don't know who I'm going to get to cut this damn grass. During our visit, we upgrade and repair the memorial that Thomas and I had set up across from the Tasty

Freeze where D. and Moore had been picked up. Dave, I think what we need to do is repair this sign permanently. The pictures has only been up there for about a year and they already faded. Thomas and I found the only known photo of Henry D. just before the trial. It had been placed in an old yearbook by one of his Franklin County friends. Now, Moore and Dee's photos are etched into this memorial. This is for you, Franklin County, and other parts of the world. There is still a lot of unjust going on in this country. Whether you're in Colorado, Chicago, it doesn't matter. As you drive by this, this is to remind everyone as to what happened on the 2nd of May, 1964.

Yep. Good job. Listen complete. Not much seemed to have changed physically in Meadville since 2007. I asked a few people what they thought four years after the seal conviction. I met this man wearing a Hawaiian-style shirt in a Brookhaven, Mississippi parking lot. Yeah, it's really amazing. My wife and I have watched the documentary several times, and we're both amazed by the fact that we had never heard of these murders. It's inspiring to see a man such as Mr. Moore stand up and fight for his family.

And another man in Roxy. One of the impacts of Mr. Seale going to trial was we were able to see the country at large, was able to see some of the atrocities that took place in Mississippi during the 60s. And this young woman in Meadville. I was extremely grateful. That was my first reaction, was thank you, Jesus, because I felt it was overdue. And it was time for all his skeletons to be revealed and him to answer for the things that he had done.

And I commend you for the documentary, and also I commend the justice system for doing the right thing this time. The deal primarily is the same. I mean, they still have this sense of superiority over us, and I don't think that will ever go away. I don't know if that spirit lingers here or what, and I don't think that'll ever go away. I don't know if that spirit lingers here or what, but I don't think that'll ever go away. Not here in the South.

Not this deep South. And the local newspaper, the Franklin Advocate, was still going. It hadn't changed much either. Mary Lou! Hold on a minute. That shit is right there. going. It hadn't changed much either. Mary Lou! Hold on a minute. That shit is right there. You all for the day? Franklin Advocate owner and editor Mary Lou Webb is the woman who wrote an editorial against reopening the case and told us that pursuing it was like beating a dead dog. We wanted to return a photo we had borrowed from her, but Thomas also wanted to ask a few questions about a continued lack of coverage in the paper of his brother's case.

The discussion quickly digressed. Well, I'm just saying the fact... You're playing my husband to you. I'm just saying the fact... Because he was a good man and he was... I'm not taking your husband. All right, good for you. I'm just saying that Frank and Albert case, the two weeks prior to... Let me tell you something,

what you need to do now. You need to take that chip off your shoulder and get on with your life. I ain't got no chip. The Franklin Advocate didn't report on Dee and Moore being missing, but did publish something shortly after their bodies were discovered. The article quotes a false story from Sheriff Wayne Hutto that Dee and Moore had been in Louisiana visiting relatives. I am champion for the people, not just for one guy who's still got something going. Mary Lou's husband, David Webb, now deceased, is listed as being the publicity director for The Americans for the Preservation of the White Race, on a July

1964 information sheet I found. The APWR helped support the Ku Klux Klan, and also attempted to establish whites-only private schools in Adams and neighboring counties. The Franklin Advocate also regularly featured mentions about the APWR on their front page. The baby's been born now. It's been in the birth canal with Thomas for 40 years, but it's been born now. Let that baby lead a good life and shut up and go on and let's all try to live together. The enemy is not here, it's overseas.

Pretty sure this is the house. When in Mississippi, it's not such a long journey to visit an old friend in Louisiana, Henry D.'s sister, Thelma. There's Thelma. Hey, Thelma. Nice to see you. Oh, it's David. It's David.

Oh, man, I didn't know who you were. How you doing? I'm doing well. I'm doing well. It's so good to see you again. Oh, man, Lord have mercy. Glad to see you too. I had been asking Thomas about you. And he would tell me you was all right.

And every time me and him talk, we talk about you. I keep up to date on you through Thomas, too. So I'm interested in just talking to you about what's been going on in your life and how things have gone for you in the last years and since the trial and all that. Well, I ain't going to say I've been feeling the best. You know, the case was good, but sometime the problem will come back, you know. But it pays over, just one of them things now and then, all kind of shit until then that's, you know, going by.

Try to even get it. about Charlie Forget It. Because I guess, I mean, we have justice, we have Seal. Mr. Seal was in jail, he died in jail, but it doesn't, obviously, it doesn't negate those horrible things and the loss of Henry. But Mother don't know the day that he passed. Isyphine still doesn't know. She don't know the day we hadn't told her.

Henry and Thelma's mother, Isyphine, has resided in a psychiatric hospital since the 1940s and will likely never be told of her son Henry's murder. And I ask them to don't tell her because she was already sick. And I told them, I said, whatever y'all do, don't tell Mama. I said, because she got to know, you know. Yeah, yeah. And she don't know that. How's she doing? She's doing fine. Mama don't better than me, to tell you the truth.

She's just old and everything, but she gets around good and everything. Mm-hmm. Yeah. What did you think? I've always wanted to ask you this. What did you think about when Thomas and I started looking into this case? Well, I was happy because I didn't know what to do on my table. All I know to do was just worry. And before y'all got this case started, my brother used to visit me with an angel. I ain't told nobody this before. I'm telling you this. He used to come visit me with an angel. I ain't told nobody this before. You know what I'm saying?

I'm telling you this. He used to come to me on an angel. And I'd be asleep, but he would be on that angel all the time, playing with me. And it would worry me a lot, you know. But I could see my brother in the water and stuff, but I didn't know where he was. I could see that. I could see it in different dreams I'd have, but I didn't know where he was. But after that trial, my brother stopped coming to visit me on that angel.

So it must have quieted him down or he must have been satisfied. Because I hadn't seen that angel since. And that's kind of odd. I often wonder, I say, well, I often say to myself, that must have been why he kept visiting me like that. Head to be. Did you ever find any more pictures of Henry, by the way? Because we found that one. Did you ever find any more pictures? I never did get no more pictures of him. No.

Have you ever given more thought to when Charles Edwards asked for forgiveness and you and Thomas went to talk to him and accepted his apology and his offer for forgiveness? Have you ever thought about Charles Edwards since the trial? Yeah, I believe he meant it. I believe if he could do it over, he wouldn't do it no more. I don't believe he would be involved in that kind of stuff. But I believe that he meant what he said.

I do. Thomas was somewhat less certain, and I think this is at the root of why we came down here, to see Edwards again. When he asked my forgiveness, that opened up that little tiny door for me to walk right on through and leave the chains of pain behind me. The guilt, the frustration,

when I walked through that door, it released me. Now, if he lying, then that's him and his God got to worry about that. In 2007, Thomas had been surprised and moved by Edward's courtroom apology. But by 2011, he was interested in having a more in-depth conversation with the former Klansman, turned Baptist Church deacon.

What we're going to do this morning is talk to Charles Marcus Edwards. If there's some questions we want to ask him, finish it up with a conversation. We would try to visit Edwards one more time at his home just off the Bunkley Road. Grand Lane? Yeah, that's it. There were still gaps in the story of what went on that day in 1964. Gaps that could only be filled in by the one living man who was there. When it comes to mortgages, after these last few years, you might feel like it's time for a change.

Let Dominion Lending Centers help. We can change your rate, mortgage product, even the lender, all for the better. It's your mortgage renewal. Change it. Find a mortgage expert in your area at dominionlending.ca. Oh, that coffee smells good. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing? That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee.

Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with mortgage payments on their minds. If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank. The earlier they understand your situation, the more options and relief measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. So here we're going down to this guy's house.

He done isolated himself way down here in the community. I guess he just didn't want to be around nobody else. After all that shit. There's an old truck there, so he's at home now. Remember to park up by the mailbox. Fucking dog come out of that box. C.M. Edwards. The first time we were here, Edwards angrily ordered me off his property, crowbar in hand.

Thomas had stayed in the van, filled with anxiety. How would both men react this time around, five years later? There, you're right there. Okay, let's go, man. Hey, fella. Mr. Edwards. Charles Edwards was in white shorts and a t-shirt with a green camel hunting cap. Despite it being early in the morning, Edwards was already up and at work on the floor of a small aluminum fishing boat. How you doing? What y'all up to? Talking to you. Come see you. How you doing?

Doing all right, Q. Can we go sit down somewhere? We head over to a brown, wooden, swinging chair in the breezeway of Edwards' parking garage, and the two men take a seat. The original dog I met the first time I came is nowhere in sight, but a smaller dog that looks to be a Jack Russell Terrier jumps up onto Edward's lap. It's something that I always wanted to do.

I just wanted to just, you know, we both... You know, I don't know how you feel about it but when you stood up in the court and actually forgive that that that gave me an avenue yeah oh man I hated you dude I'm gonna tell you right off I said I'm gonna get him you know I just and I and I didn't even know you I was sincere when I asked you and this days to give me to you. And we believe that. I seen her yesterday. We talk every week.

We kinda like accepting each other as brother and sister. As tragic and bad as this war, it was a God thing. I looked at that too and I said, probably if this tragedy hadn't happened, I wouldn't have been back here. And I came back here and home and helped build a church here

and all that, just the way life is. God's in control of our lives if we belong to him. For me, you know, that was the childhood with my only brother. And we were raised without a dad. I'm gonna tell you for sure, your mother, I cried many a night wondering how she felt about knowing that her son wasn't gonna come back. And I'm gonna tell you another thing for sure, if I knew that was gonna turn out like it did,

I would never have been part of it. I wouldn't have. They sort of conned me into that, telling me that them people had rifles and machine guns and everything else. Did you think it was just gonna be something, just a confrontation? Yeah, I didn't deny being a member of the Klan. I didn't deny that. But what they had said about that was that we'd pick D's up and question him about it. I thought that was all that was going to be to us, you know. I didn't know.

But James Seals means some guns, fella, I'm going he mean I know but your brother he was just a victim of circumstances they told me well let me ask you about that now I guess they had identified D because he was running in and out of Chicago with his other sister up there and he had that hair thing. Yeah, he had that hair thing. He was identified, you know, maybe as a black Muslim. Him in an Irish car going back home, you know, he was one of the people that we were sort of looking at by the gun running deal. See if he could have any connections up there and down here.

But it wasn't nothing to it. No, D was a good fella. He was, he wasn't rowdy. You know, I knew him. I mean, I picked him up. He rode to town with me several times from down on Berber Hill. See, I think, I try to think that the shock and that they was on, how bad they were beating up, I don't know, but just the fact that I know... Well, they got a pretty good whooping, but they wasn't nowhere near death or nothing

like that. I mean, they was good and alive when they left there with them and took them back down to the sea or the place down there. After that happened, how long did you hang around with them crazy jokes? How long did you? That just about ended it. Oh yeah. But the FBI done got really involved in all that stuff.

I got the shock of my life when I found out that over half of the people that was in the Klan was informants. They had more informants than we did at regular meetings, the FBI did. It just went on and on, you know, the top people, they had informants and they knew more about what was going on than we did, and I did probably. After that, it wasn't very many meetings. I went to them. It hurt my family, it hurt my wife, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah.

Did you ever think about what if that had happened to my son? Well, sure I did. And I wondered, you know, I wondered. I had four boys and I wondered, I said, what if so many people might retaliate and take one of my sons, you know, I wondered. I had four boys, and I wondered. I said, what if so many people might retaliate and take one of my sons, you know? And I wondered about that. Edwards feared retaliation by the African-American community,

but he goes on to talk about retaliation from a different source. You know, God worked in this serious way, and my oldest son was, he was some kind of athlete. And a good Christian boy never raised his mouth. And one evening I went to work, and I borrowed a gun from my Uncle Robert down here to let my third boy have a gun to hunt with. They came back from wrapping up,

and he was sitting there by the bathtub in the bathroom, and that boy come by there and pulled him with that gun and shot him. He killed him. An accident. His oldest son killed by another boy using Edward's own gun in his own home. When did that happen? That happened in 1973. He was 14 years old, 14 and a half years old. Eventually, the conversation moves from Edwards' family tragedy back to Thomas'. James Seale was in jail because of the consequences that he did.

You know, I got that feeling too, you know, that maybe I should have been in there too. But that wasn't part of God's plan in my life, you know, so I didn't go. We went seeing Seale, me and David. We went by his place in 2005, and I called him out from that road. I wasn't going down there because I feared he'd shoot me. I know because see we called him out. He ran in. I said, oh I can't go down there because he couldn't hit me with no pistol from where I was at. Well he was going to get that dog on rifle. We didn't, I'd never seen those FBI files until 2005.

Never seen them. And we knew, as we read those files, me and David, and he was in Canada, I was in Colorado, we were talking two or three times a day. And we said if we could get to one of you guys and confront, and one of them may return against the other guy. That was the only way that that would work.

That's the only way it would happen, because I wouldn't have. No, no. But he had the way that that was going to happen. That's the only way it would have happened because I wasn't there. No. No. But he had the opportunity to do just what you did. Oh, you reckon? Yeah, well, we went to him first. We didn't, I mean, we went to his place. We didn't come to see you until 2006, one year later, because I didn't have the nerve to come talk to you. I said, now, what if I go up there and you were like, nigga, get off my place. What am

I going to do? What, What am I going to do? How am I going to respond to that? So me and David rolled by here a couple of times. I said, no, I'm not going in there. That was in 2005. I'll offer y'all a cup of coffee if you want. Dave, you want a cup of coffee? I'll have a cup of coffee, sir.

I said, you got pieces in there. I got all kind of fruit, man. I got more pears and peaches and stuff than I'll have a cup of coffee, sir. I said you got a piece of them. I got all kind of fruit, man. I got more pears and peaches and stuff than I'll ever do. I want a cup of pizza for a leave. Okay. I don't want anything in your cup. No. I'll have a bit of milk, please.

Edwards invites me inside to make some coffee while Thomas heads outside to check out the garden. It's still early in the morning, and Edward's wife, Betty, dark-haired with glasses and a light dress, is just waking up. I'm standing in his kitchen, watching Edwards make me coffee. What you doing? I'm just talking to more of this other guy, yeah. Don't be worried, come sit at the table if you want to. Where'd he go off to? We walk back outside with coffees in hand,

a pastoral scene that would have been unimaginable just five years before, and head for the garden in search of Thomas. a pastoral scene that would have been unimaginable just five years before, and head for the garden in search of Thomas. Hey, Dave. Where'd y'all go? You get your son? Yeah, I went and got me one of your pictures. Here you go.

Oh, thank you, bro. Let me ask you something. It's about 931. We've been here almost an hour. What does this talking that you and I are doing today do for you today? If you knew it, we'd be friends. Yeah. For me it's a completion. I have no more, there's nothing else that I want to do on this case. I want to be able to, and I have put it all behind. Do you remember the first time I came?

Thomas was in the van, and I said, he just wants to talk to you, and he told me to get out of here. Yeah. What did you think at that time? At that time? Well, I had never made no kind of confession or nothing. I don't know. I just didn't want to be bothered with it, you know what?

I wasn't gonna confess to nobody because I denied this for years when people would ask me about it. But what I really denied was taking part in really putting those boys to death. That's what I didn't deny. And people didn't ask me did I have a part in it. What they asked me was did you kill those boys? I still want to know what happened in the woods. Well, I reckon you could say, because of myself,

we did the little strapping that went on with James Seals that he held a gun on this guy. And that's the reason I said that they wouldn't really be as bad as people made out like they were. But Curtis lived there with James wherever they went. But Curtis didn't go to the river with him. Because he was back that night at the Klan meeting. What happened at the Klan meetings? Well, it was just like any other business. You can't just go to that. You, uh...

It wasn't always all against blacks, too. They done some good things. They tore some white people's butts up that wouldn't work all against blacks too. They done some good things. They told some white people's butts off that it wouldn't work and support their family. They got them and they give them a good whooping, you know. And they, but that's what it's all about. I told, what was the lady, prosecutor's name up there? Hey, hey, hey, Fitzgerald.

It's Miss Fitzgerald. I told her, I said, Miss Fitzgerald, I'm not a hypocrite. Now, that's one thing. And I said, I have nothing against any black person. I don't hold anything against them. But the only thing I said, they ought to to have good jobs and a good home and everything. But the one thing, and I'm not a hypocrite, I don't believe in intermarriage. I don't believe in that. And I tell you that too. I said I've worked with them and I've trained with them and I've invited them to my house and they've eaten at my table and whatever. I said that's the one thing that I still have a problem with and maybe someday I'll overcome that.

I think they'll have a problem with that because, the reason is because you know, it might not be in Colorado or wherever you're at now, but when you, and I've got a niece right up the road here that's married to a black guy, and she's got two kids. Well, they really don't fit in with the whites or the blacks, you know, as far as social stuff, not going to school. As an observer, I stay silent, reflecting on how some things have not changed. So what about your, how your community feels? Well, when we went up there and I testified and I come back,

you know, Sunday morning when I got up to teach my Sunday school class and our dear church service when they had the announcements, I stood and I told them. I said, y'all know who I am and what I've done now. And I said, I'll give up my Sunday school class, and I'll give up my deaconship. Anything y'all want me to give up, but I won't give my church up. I'm going to still come to church and serve God.

I said, I've done what I thought was right. And y'all can do whatever y'all think is right about you. Well, the other deacon stood up and said, Charles, we can't do nothing but accept your apologies and we want you to keep teaching Sunday school and still be the chairman of the deacon. I said well if that's what y'all want now you be sure. I tell you what, and I look back at the day that y'all came to church up there and I thought about it a thousand times since then.

Why didn't I just ask them people to come on in church with me? That would have been the proper thing for me to do. You'd be welcome if you come out to serve God. Yeah. But if you come out to stir up a racket, you wouldn't be welcome. I think you know that that's parents on me. But you'd be welcome to

come. What time is your church service on Sunday? The service is at 11 o'clock. If you want to come, you come. I think you and I are setting up a church. It's going to be a testimony for all people. And then Thomas and Edwards walk back into the garden to pick some more fruit and vegetables together. Yeah, what about, you ain't got no tomatoes? I see a couple laying right there. You ain't got no tomatoes? I love them things. Get some salt and pepper. Come on, Dave.

These are young. Yeah, I got five. That's good enough. We gather Thomas' pile of peaches and tomatoes and get ready to leave. So we'll be down there. We'll meet you at the church. Okay. Good seeing you, fella. I remember the old word we used to say, y'all get off of here now, go home.

You take care of yourself. Yeah, you go too. All right, so we'll see you Sunday. Okay. Dave, you got, no, I got the key. And so, the following Sunday, we made our way to the Bunkley Baptist Church. Good morning, everybody.

Good morning. We're proud to have Dave and Brother Thomas with us here today. Yes, sir. Y'all just feeling, huh? Like I told Dave a while ago, we're pretty informal, so. That's good. Thank you. I like that.

Thomas and Edward sit together near the front of the congregation, while the pastor dressed in Sunday best stands at the front. I'm an atheist, but I grab a hymn book too. That turn in our hymn book is the number 634. I guess the one day of the year when we sing patriotic songs, we ought to sing them probably more often. I know tomorrow's my birthday. 6.30, folks.

Suppose July's my birthday. Yeah. Yeah. And there, in Bunkley Baptist Church, at its inception a whites-only church that James Ford Seal himself and other Klansmen from Bunkley community helped to build, Thomas Moore and Charles Marcus Edwards sang together.

From every mountainside, let freedom ring. I have many people to thank for both leading to and making this documentary happen. To see the list, go to our website at cbc.ca slash sks. But no other person need be thanked more than Thomas Moore. You have been listening to Episode 6, Reckoning. Visit cbc.ca slash sks to watch David's 2011 documentary, Reconciliation in Mississippi. And subscribe to SKS on your favorite podcast app. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen.

The series is also produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kampf, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim, and executive producer Arif Noorani, and mixed by Cecil Fernandez. Our theme song is Terrorized by Willie King. Now you talk about terror I thought you'd talk about terror

People have been terrorized All my days. All my days. I will trust in the Lord. I will trust in the Lord. I will trust in the Lord until I die I will trust in the Lord I will trust in the Lord I will trust in the Lord until I die. That's what I'm going to do. That is my theme song for the rest of my life.