Someone Knows Something - S4 Episode 3: The Deer

Episode Date: February 19, 2018

Danielle and Justin meet with Ed Galick who was Wayne's former employer and mentor. He was also a person of interest to police. Ed and Wayne were like father and son, but then things took a turn in their relationship. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season4/someone-knows-something-season-4-greavette-transcripts-listen-1.4517196

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Hi. Oh, hi. I don't know if you remember me. Do you remember me? No. My name's Danielle. Get out. No, you don't look anything like you used to. Oh my God. I haven't seen you in so long. Ages. Come on in.

This is a friend of mine, David. Hi, I'm David. I'm from CBC. Oh, okay. And we're actually doing a little piece on my dad. Oh, okay. Ed Gaelic's partner, Alfrin, has opened the door and looks surprised. She appears to be in her late 50s, long, light brown hair tied back, wire-rimmed glasses and rubber sandals. He's so afraid of your dog.

Actually, he's out cutting down trees, believe it or not, in the rain. Ed's not here, but we're invited inside to wait. Almost immediately, Alfrin begins a process of apology for she and Ed not going to Wayne's funeral. Like, when the funeral, like, we sort of wanted to go, but then with all the shit that had happened, it was like, well, geez,

maybe we shouldn't because, you know. Alfred says they didn't go because people were pointing the finger at Ed. And also we had heard stories in town that people were saying

that Ed had something to do with it. Alfred takes us inside where Danielle, Justin, and I eventually meet her husband, Ed, Wayne's old business partner. We talk for hours in a wide-ranging, intense conversation that at times seemed friendly but was filled with unseen tensions that Danielle described to me afterwards.

The intention was to try and get as much information and keep him talking as long as possible. He described my father as a pig, and we had to sit there straight-faced and laugh about it. But that's not what I was feeling inside at all. That's not what my brother was feeling inside at all. I just don't want this to look like we're not concerned about those things, because it does. It cuts me to the bone. You are listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Original Podcasts.

In Season 4, David Ridgen continues the work he started nine years ago on the Wayne Gravett case. This is episode three, The Deer. You look old, don't you? Hair's not yellow. No, but it's very white. No, mine is. Ed Galick Sr. is dressed in a white short-sleeved shirt with a collar and blue stripes on the sleeves. He says he's 67 years old but looks younger and has medium-length wavy gray hair, perfect-looking teeth, light blue eyes, and a hearing aid.

Ed moves deftly and speaks loudly with an almost overwhelming confidence, a man used to being in charge of any situation. So explain everything, why the hell, I know you love me to death if you can't even see me, but it's just been a million years, so tell me the story. According to the Gravettes and the Gaelics, their two families had been very close and had worked together for a long time. But despite this, they hadn't spoken in the years leading up to Wayne's death or after. What was the nature of the disagreement between Wayne and Ed Gaelic? You know what? I think we all got to talking about doing this

because obviously, you know, it's been so long since Dad passed away. Well, if somebody's out there, that shouldn't be out there. What you just said is exactly why. We've climbed some stairs back at Ed's split-level home and are now gathered round a wooden dining table on a coal-tiled floor. The room's painted a shade of mint green,

and above us on the wall, a large wooden cutout of a word. Family. I mean, we started talking about it. To start at the beginning, there's only really you two. You guys knew us so well, and our family so well. We wanted to be able to sit down with you and get an understanding of what was my dad like? The good, the bad, the ugly? Oh no, there was a lot, a lot of good times.

Oh, we had tons of good times. I can't remember all of them. I mean, they were all good times. Yeah. We just had our little marriage dispute come to the end of that. Yeah. But, you know, to be truthful, he did get screwed up a little at the end there anyway. But don't forget, I had him since he was 16 years old. Oh, that's how many years. I don't even know how old he was when he passed away.

But we worked our asses off. We did what I did to get from my poverty line and his poverty line at that time. Like, how did you guys meet? He was working at 7-Up. I was a mechanic and I became the head then. Put Wayne in charge, right? Because Wayne was a good worker. He was a really hard worker, right?

Yeah, we spent about, I think, a good year disciplining because he wasn't really into going to work. He was doing other stuff at that time, you know? But once he got that habit, he's the first there and the last to leave and the hardest worker guy you ever want to meet. Wayne followed Ed from 7 Up to the Pop Shop, a soft drink company. Then Wayne stayed on there while Ed left and started his own business. They kept in touch and one day Wayne went to work for Ed again. We've been together years now, so we sort of thought even a life run. We got along great, like our brains were working together and all that. We were just working all the time.

Right. I said what we're going to do is we're going to go away for a couple months, Wayne, and I'm going to leave you in charge. Ed would leave Wayne in charge of Serge and then go on vacation. It worked okay. We went away for a couple months, came back and checked the books and everything. It was just great. But sometimes when Ed returned from vacation, he says, it wasn't always rosy with Wayne. He recalls Wayne, on one such occasion, had began treating workers harshly.

He ruled people. Yeah? Did he start to feel that way? Yeah, I'll tell him that you can't treat the people that are making us money like that, right? Because that's what he'd do. He'd people. Yeah? Did he start to feel that way? Yeah, about how you can't treat the people that are making us money like that, right? Because that's what he'd do. He'd treat them like dirt, right? And I'd go, why would you do that? Where in the world did you get that?

You were dirt, I was dirt. Like, we're not all... But I don't know where that came from, right? Yeah. We sort of straightened it out, like, you know, because I said, I don't want people coming to me telling me about you and then leaving because you're too hard on them, right?

Yeah. So he caught on to that pretty quick because I said, I'll i'll get rid of him man because i don't need that more like employees or was it customers and employees like so he was losing the respect of his crew he just yeah he went power nuts he went power nuts for about a year and we got put the bed right yeah and that was okay so then we decided we're going for six months right yeah so and i was a little apprehensive about it. I said, why don't you just move into the house, in this one, I guess you guys were living here, right,

for about six months. And we're just going to be gone. And I'll call you once in a while. That worked out okay. So it comes up with this bright idea of we're going to put Diane in there, right? Albert and I worked together, so he thought that would be the next natural step.

But in Ed's opinion, Diane he thought that would be the next natural step. But in Ed's opinion, Diane wasn't working out for the business. She's got her opinion, I've got my opinion, you've got your opinion, but unfortunately or unfortunately, I own the business and here's where we're going. And I can't explain it any better. So that happened for about two, three months, and then they rebelled on it, right? I'm just going to tell you how our marriage split it up. Yeah, I didn't know. So I come back, and I guess through all the jobs I've ever done,

part of your job is the worst part is you don't work here no more, right? Eventually, Ed says he asked Wayne to fire Diane. So I said, I think you're going to have to let her go. Well, why don't you do that? I just said, I didn't hire her. You did. So he fired her? Yeah. I asked Diane for her version.

She says Ed and Alfred were the ones who fired her. I was let go. And I don't know why. I was let go. And they said that they didn't need my services anymore and whatever. And I worked really hard. And, you know, Wayne worked really, really hard. Wayne had said to me, the two of us, between me doing that job and him doing that job,

Ed wasn't happy. Diane having to leave caused a lot of friction. And another factor that led to Wayne and Ed's final falling out was to do with a company she and Wayne had developed. Serge had acquired a company called Conveyors Unlimited, and Diane says she and Wayne worked hard to manage the company while Ed was away in Arizona. She says it was Wayne's understanding that he would own 50% of Conveyors Unlimited, but when Ed returned, she says Wayne was only getting paid his usual 10%, as Ed considered Conveyors to be part of Surge.

So Wayne and Diane planned to start their own company with Lisa that they would call D&L, and Wayne began the process of leaving Surge himself. I just caused a lot of tension. So I said, since we're not working out together, give me a number and adios amigos. And so he goes, okay, I want this and that. And I go, no problem, right, you can have that. And then Spike came in really bad.

I got him just really not happy with me because he had to fire his missus and then he gets canned, right? And I understand the feelings. I've also heard Diane's version of the situation. When Ed came back that year, Ed decided that he was going to put it all together and basically pay Wayne his 10%. Well, Wayne was pissed off with that

because he said, that's not right. Like, I'm 50% of Converisa Limited, 10% of Surge Beverage. That doesn't, you know, it's not right. You can't just take that money and throw it in with that. Ned said he could do anything he wanted to do. That disagreement ended in court with Wayne seeking compensation for the value of his share of the business. In the end, in 1993, Ed and Wayne went to court-ordered mediation. Wayne owed Ed money for a previous loan, and Ed owed Wayne money.

In the end, Wayne netted around $100,000, according to Diane, and then roughly three years passed without the family speaking a word to each other. Wayne used his money to help buy the farm, and then Wayne was murdered in December 1996. We sort of ended all that anyway, just my regular lawyer stuff and all that. But we never did get engaged to being friends again.

So what happened, it took about a third of my life right out of me because that was always there. And vice versa. Oh, for sure. Yeah, like we were always there. Counted on each other. How's the kids? How's that? Where's the kids? I pretty well lost him for two years after that. Like I know it was a three-year difference,

but the first year I sort of kept tabs because he was calling on our customers, but, you know, he's trying to survive. So on a business aspect, no effect whatsoever. Personal, big effect, a big hole in your heart. Like, well, why? How did that happen? We used to have our domestics together, but we were always number one. Here, Ed downplays his disputes, which he calls domestics together but we were always number one. Here Ed downplays his

disputes which he calls domestics with Wayne and moves to a story about them getting into a scrap with someone else. He was a feisty little son of a... I don't know where he got his balls for his size. Well we were at Newmarket, eh? Having a beer. There's me, my brother Roy, and we stand the size we stand, right? Got little Wayne with us, right? So this guy over here, he's just a y the size we stand, right? Got little Wayne with us, right? So this guy over here, he's just a yip and a way, right? And he gets pushing somebody, and they bumped into it and spilled our beer, right? Well, we paid for this, and now we're upset, right? And this guy didn't offer to pay for it.

Wayne gets up, grabs the guy by the hair, just like that, the guy was right there, big, big, about four times, and the guy was gone. And I go to Roy like, aren't we ashamed? No, he would take shit for nobody. No, he didn't really walk away from anything. But he did walk away from responsibility in the last three, four years. Yeah.

Like specifically, what way do you think? I know what he was doing, but I don't want to say that. I'll be blunt here. Not knowing hurts us a hell of a lot more. I mean, even coming here was a little bit nervous because we know that there's going to be things that we don't want to hear. But you know what? We hear it in the press. We've heard a lot already.

I know, but sell your pot. The stuff you don't know is probably good because then your memories will stay the same. And then if you know the other side, I don't like to steal some of your memories. We're trying to remember him as somebody who died of natural causes. We're trying to remember and we're trying to figure out

what might have happened to him. Lost that lousy two years. Like, I just didn't stay in contact and know who, where, what, and how. And I lost that, so a lot of it became guessing. But on the same part, the what, who, and how

was just still in the circle that we all lived in. Well, that's it. You left a lot of people wondering what the hell happened to them, right? He certainly did. And with Danielle and Justin pressing for more, Ed tells them something about their dad they have never heard before. You start moving in different directions.

Like, we had a philosophy. Like, we weren't no angels, right? It was kind of easy to rip people off. And job as we did you were very capable because there's a million people out there so you can just rip off that guy rip off that guy well I never wanted that right I wanted us to have the biggest name the best name and they're calling us because we're the most honest hardest working selling the guns and yeah we want our money and that's just the way it is yeah right near the end there that's why I had to do something with him uh he took a little money yeah right then I even told her because then she would tell me well why did

you kill him or something like that you don't use those words you use that word all the time yeah and why wouldn't you just tell me you're taking that and just take it in advance or take it as a bonus and just sell more or something like that why would you just go and take it and not even tell me like I will find out when you approached him about that like what. Why would you just go and take it and not even tell me? Like, I will find out. When you approached him about that, like, what was his answer to that? He just denied it flat? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It was like a lousy, I think it was $10,000 or $15,000. But he was running into this hiding problem when he's still with Serge. And I'd never done all that stuff, right? I just smoked pot. I love pot. You know, you get so wired,

I had to come down. And that's why I did a lot of pot and did a lot of drinking. He ventured off to experiment with his other stuff. It just affected his work terribly, because he'd be late for work, which is super unusual. Yeah. Because that's just totally, because he lived there.

Like, you know, even if he was sick, he was there, right? Yeah. Ed says Wayne took $10,000 or $15,000, something I cannot verify, but also says that Wayne denied it. And Ed also says he observed a new change in Wayne's behavior, a kind of paranoia. One Ed attributed to harder drug use, though Ed says he never actually saw that kind of use with his own eyes. Diane says that beyond pot, harder drugs may have only been used recreationally

and then very infrequently. So if he was into the coke scene, that's an assumption? It's an assumption and not an assumption all at the same time. It was just like night and day, like looking through my eyes. I mean, just knowing this guy for 20, 30 years, I would give him time of day. I mean, the guy's head was all over the goddamn place, right? Yeah, yeah.

And there was no more reality. It was just like, get out of here, go hide, don't answer the phone, never answer that phone. Yeah. Well, that's what we do. Without that phone, we got no business. It wasn't like today's world, right? Was it more like a paranoia, did you find, or was it more like he just was running in?

I don't know, but don't people on coke hide away and all that? So Ed's story is that Wayne starts acting strangely, possibly stealing from him and not answering phones. Ed fires him, and in the process of leaving, Wayne maybe tries to take Surge customers for a new business of his own. Their disagreement over percentages is dragged into court where the suing happens, and Ed says he heard in the rumor mill of the beverage and packaging industry that money may have played a part in Wayne's death. Then I started hearing stories like,

oh, you want me to do your conveyor, your job? Yeah, okay, give me like 50 bucks or whatever the big number might have been. And not do that job. Just give me money. bucks or whatever the big number might have been and not do that job just keep the money well yeah then you go see as a business guy you got away the lawyers in the court against losing five thousand dollars you're gonna say ten thousand dollars is gonna chase five thousand dollars no because your time you want to build your business swallow hard and never deal with that person again and anytime you can get them you you can get them, that's fine. And that's the way most, if you start to rip off the lower numbers, right? Now, if you graduate to a higher number, ouch, like, you know, I don't know what's going to

happen. But then on the same tune, I could steal your earrings and that could piss you off so much you might do me in just for a lovely set of earrings. If Wayne was taking money for jobs he didn't do, could that be enough to enrage the wrong person into sending the package? Ed says he got word from some of Wayne's customers who were unhappy. I'm going to tell you, I knew the customers came back. And they're going, Ed, the guy's with you.

I go, no, he's not with me. He's got their own company. He was just a salesman for me after a while because the more he screwed up, the more they'd come back. I don't know if what Ed says he heard about Wayne cheating customers in the business is true. Ed goes on to say that Wayne became involved with people in the industry who were less than honest. He surrounded himself with people who were crooks. And eventually that, I mean, if I'm to gather what you're saying correctly, you know, you're kind of saying he surrounded himself with crooks. He turned into a crook. That's what you think went wrong there.

I'd chase that. Yeah? I would chase that because I don't know about killing people and all that. So he's either ripped a lot of people in that last two years, like just because of money, plus I don't know what the habit would cost you. You know, like you need to throw all that in there. See, that's what he started doing, surrounding himself with these characters.

And Ed mentions another case that is also of interest. I'll give you another for instance. I guess you're aware of like Paul Henton. You know Paul Henton? No, he's in the same business as those guys, right? Plastic belt? Plastic belt, but then he started... Pavel Paul Henton was another man in the packaging industry involved in a different partnership. And he got in the same business we're in. And he went the wrong way.

Like, he was doing weird things, right? But that's the nature of the business. There's a whole bunch of it. If it's too good to be true, it's not true, right? So you don't worry about it. But I did a lot of deals with the guy and all that. Played poker with him. Good drinking friend.

Same thing, right? He got stabbed 14 times. Got killed right in his own shop. They followed the next day. It's been a long time since you might have felt in control of your mortgage. Let Dominion Lending Centers help. With access to hundreds of financial institutions, they shop for the best rate and the best product for you.

It's your mortgage renewal. Take control of it. Find a mortgage expert in your area at dominionlending.ca. Are you sure you parked over here? Do you see it anywhere? I think it's back this way. Come on. Hey, you're going the wrong way.

Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Whether renting, considering buying a home, or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. On Friday, May 17, 2002, just after 9 a.m., a cleaning lady found Paul Hentonen dead in his apartment on Rosetta Street in Georgetown.

He had lived and worked there, the owner of a scrap metal and vending machine repair business. The 54-year-old man had been stabbed repeatedly with a kitchen knife. He was last seen when he was dropped off by a taxi just past midnight after spending an evening at the Barbertown Pub, also in Georgetown. He was a father of three and was said to be well-liked. In reports on the case, Halton Regional Police have said that a large amount of money went missing around the time of the murder, although they don't think robbery was a motive. They do think it was personal, though, and that Paul knew the person or people who killed him.

The police developed several DNA profiles from the crime scene and discovered blood from the person they believe is responsible, and they have a palm print from Paul's green 1997 Chevy pickup that was found two days later a few kilometers from his home. To this day, no one has been charged with Henton and his murder. Yeah, he's gone. Holy shit. There goes Wayne.

There goes another guy. I better retire. I'm probably the oldest guy in the business right now. They never found that guy. Diane says Wayne knew Henton and two and got along well with him. They bought parts from him and Diane thinks Henton and Wayne used to drink together. Police hadn't connected Henton's murder to Wayne's when I spoke to them in 2009.

And in 2017, the new caseholder gives the same impression. Danielle brings the focus back onto Ed Galick and her dad's murder. Oftentimes, I think we thought, you know, that maybe there was a possibility that you might have done it. Like for six months, they're tapping my phone, the van's parked up there, I did four lie detector tests, I gave my hair to the forensic people to do DNA,

and then the guy goes, how would your DNA get at their house, right, on the farm? And I go, I don't know where the guy goes, how would your DNA get at their house, right? On the farm. Yeah. And I go, I don't know where the farm is, but I don't know how it would ever go over there. But they did live in my house, and that Wayne there, he was a crook and a half. He'd be stealing my ball hats all the time. Well, he had a thing about, oh, I like a ball hat.

And then he'd be wearing it, and I wouldn't have a ball hat, right? Yeah. Because it was just like friendly stuff, right? Yeah. Like, I had nothing. There was no reason to lie. I sort of told him truthfully, number one is it would take a 45 foot truck to build a bomb. If I was building a bomb, I have no idea how that even works, right?

I'm not that intelligent, so I'd have to shoot him. I don't own a gun, but I'd have to shoot him, right? It's like a bang bang. Why would I go to destroy a company that's just starting? You know, like, oh, I'll underbid them and stuff like that. Why would I bother? Like, I'm already busy, right? And I'm not wasting my time. I don't have that time for the hate or the revenge.

There was no revenge. Ed says police didn't come to talk to him right away. See, the cops never even come to see me for two, three weeks, right? Yeah. Which is totally unusual, because I'd be the first guy there. Like, you know, if I was a cop, I'd go see that guy. They just broke up, did their court, da-da-da. There's the best friend

family would say that someone had gotten screwed us over. Like, any stories or whatever, the hateful, the good things would come out. Yeah. So I got, I noticed the cars parked. So this guy did his van there, like, every morning, I'm going to work, there's the van, right? Come back home, there's a man over there, and I get over here, and then the phone starts clicking. Then the phone starts clicking at work there, right? And I go, wow, and nobody's coming to see me.

And I go, like, you know, and I'm starting to put all this, and I'm getting paranoid, I guess, right? And then I'm thinking, I wonder if that was, like, the surge or the wane. Like, I don't know the information yet, right? Yeah. Alfred, you go get the mail. I don't know the information yet, right? Alfred, you go get the mail. I ain't touching it right now. Were you afraid for your life?

I thought about it. But it took them so long. You know, like, you waited three weeks. Like, everybody's following. Ed, I just got interviewed by the police. And I go, whoa, they never come here. A week later, somebody else told me. Yeah, they were down at our place interviewing.

I go, why aren't they coming here? He interviewed his sister. Everybody, but not me. Amazing the people. So I go, let me see. Best friend, been in business forever. I'd be the first person. I'd be going right to God right away.

But why are you guys waiting three weeks? And here I am into this mess and we just got rid of the mess we were just in, wasted a whole bunch of three years or two years in court and now I'm back again. And all I want to do is just forget it. The business is going down, because people naturally,

everybody, that guy, that guy. Well, the more I say it's not me, the more it is that guy. He got away from this, no, it's not me. Believe anything you want to believe, man, I don't care. Why am I defending myself against what? What am I defending myself against? Finally, Ed says the police got in touch with him and asked whether he'd be willing to take a lie detector test.

My lawyer goes, don't even do that lie detector test or nothing. I just drove right up there slapping on. And I was only supposed to be there for half an hour. I was there for four hours, and they locked me up. They wouldn't let me out of the room, right? And then I freaked out on them, like either arrest me. And then your mind starts doing weird things, like how can I get myself out of this?

I didn't even get into this. How can I get out of something I didn't get myself into? Yeah, well see, I think they forgot that we hurt too. Probably drinking more than you should, because you're scared. You sit there and think about, how am I gonna convince them that I had nothing to do with that? What can I say or do? You're like, come in the house, just take everything out of the house.

Take everything, everything. Just satisfy yourself and go find the weird guy. You're wasting too much time on me. That's the way I looked at it. Don't waste your time on me. Go get that weird guy. Do I blame him? No, I don't blame them for that.

As long as you're doing a good job, and apparently they did because they didn't come back to do nothing to me. Police will not verify whether Ed undertook a lie detector or any other form of cooperation with their investigation. No, we never, never, ever heard from them again, like after those few months and stuff. And you're always curious, like, you know, have they found anything? But now you're scared to go check it out.

After Wayne and Ed parted ways, Ed Galick put his son Ed Jr. into Wayne's position at the company. Ed Jr. had worked at Surge in various capacities over time and knew the Gravettes well. But Ed says that his son didn't like Wayne. I know my son didn't like him because he thought he's stealing my paw and all that. Get off your butt, do what he does,

and we're going to be one, right? It's that easy. I treated everybody the same. Well, with all due respect to little Eddie, he had his tries. Yeah, exactly. Little Ed, Ed Jr., or Eddie as some call him, worked in the beverage and packaging industry too, but didn't stay at Surge for long.

He only lasted about a half a year and I fired him because he got... That's a whole other story. That's a whole other story. Well, he went to Coke too. He went to Coke, meaning Ed Jr., according to Ed Sr., went to cocaine. Ed brings up his son Ed Jr. again later when he's asked who might be capable of making a flashlight into a bomb. Okay, let's switch it around differently.

What is the profile of somebody you would think? Okay, let's say if it was in the industry, what people in your industry, I guess, would have that knowledge? My son? Your son? You think? He's smart. He can do electronics? He's smart?

Oh, he's smart. He's smart. He can do anything. He can read a book in like 30 seconds. Was he really that pissed off with my old man? Oh, no, no. I'm not saying my son would do that. No, no.

Where did he get that sort of knowledge from? I'm just saying that someone would do that. Where did, like, where would he get that sort of knowledge from? He's smart. He's a computer guy. Yeah, yeah, I guess computer guys, you know, I'm just trying Can't you find that stuff on a computer? Yeah, you guys didn't even have internet at Surge. No, no. I'm just wondering specifically

what type of businesses that maybe Surge did business with that would have that maybe electrical or computer sort of experience, maybe somebody. Darling, we work for everybody. Yeah. Like from huge breweries to craft. I mean, like, there's a million people out there that would know that stuff.

Like a lot of smart people, right? A lot of times we would get engaged with the engineers naturally if you're going to bid on a job and all that. Do they have enough brains to do that? Of course they do. Yeah. Yeah, so what profile? I mean, you're talking to some on a job and all that. Do they have enough brains to do that? Of course they do. Yeah. Yeah, so what profile? I mean, you're talking to some sick dick, right?

Like, what profile? Yeah, like, I don't know what profile would be. Like, it could be anybody. So do you think that your son could have done this? No. Are you saying that you think your son could have done it? No, I'm just saying it's just another person. No, that would be terrible.

Like, I would have the capabilities or like, you know, anybody, but no, he's just a factor in that whole web. If I knew he did, he'd be in the Crowbar Motel. Yeah. I mean, that foolish is a pair. So I can't, I can't honestly tell you, you know, that I would suspect him or anything like that. I would call the cops I suspected him, right? But I didn't tell him that because I didn't. But he's just weird. But he is a weird dude. Like, Eddie is very warped. Like, there's something wrong with that kid.

So are you talking to your son now? Like, Ed, are you? I know. We're sort of, like, better off not doing that. You know, there is no salvaging him anymore. Like, you know, he might give me all that. I'm clean stuff and da, da, oh, Dad, I'm cleaning stuff, and da-da-da. I plan never on seeing him, but I got great-grandchildren. I got great-great-grandchildren from that, from whatever they did.

He did give me a good present that way. Ed Jr. is someone I'll need to talk to. Your ideas have either been ripping customers off or he was moving stuff. As you know, in this business, it's a pretty common thing. All the little shivers are doing that. Very easy. Number one is I would, like, I'd love to get the books. Yeah.

And trace the work, right? Just trace all that. Like the writing down, it has to be in those books. I'm assuming you told this all to the police. Oh, no. No? No, no. Like they were trying to develop, the police take a look at the books because the police did it anyway.

In fact, police say they went through all the available records and found nothing. Whoever did it is a complete coward, number one. And then the other part of that is the little message on the bottom, and I'm trying to recall, I don't know what it is. Have a good day or something. Have a Merry Christmas. You never need to buy another flashlight. There you go. That's right, yeah. How sad has that person got to be

knowing what the end result is? So I got a man, we got reading that letter thing there, right? But the important factor was they knew Joe and Lisa worked there. Okay. Where did you get the names? It's on that letter.

It was backed down. These girls figured it all out, that's what it was. Oh, okay, so he was just speculating those names. Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure. Yeah, because it wasn't just until recently that they actually came out and released the names. Yeah. Originally, the letter was released to the public with the two names redacted as holdback, information that only the killer would know.

Ed is saying that the women working in his office were able to figure out the names based on the context of the redactions. I even told the cops that when we were doing the line detector. And my crew figures that's Joe and Lisa, and Lisa's about Rob. And that's what he said, how do you know that? I said, I don't know that. My girls know that. Faces. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Knowing who worked there.

Yeah. But then you get the guy who sends you the letter has privilege to that. Like, who in the world would even care? Number one. Like, how weird do you got to be to wipe out a whole family who had nothing to do with your problem? Danielle and Justin push Ed into telling them more stories about their father. What was he like

when the women weren't around? Like, what was he like when you guys went out in? He was a pig. He'd rape a snake, man, if you tried to lose him. I don't know if the women seen him, but he sure

did catch a lot of them. Yeah. Yeah, he did catch a lot of them. I guess you guys did enough research to know that. I mean, you know some, right? That's what we're hoping for, is somebody says, yeah, it was this one girl. Or, you know, she had a husband. It doesn't come in mind, and that would be the furthest.

That'd be so far out, like the jealous husband thing. Rumors of infidelity had filtered through the gravettes in the years after Wayne was murdered, and it's an area that Danielle and Justin are interested in finding out more about. I don't want y'all thinking that he's like a really bad guy or not. No. All bullshit stories.

Well, see, and that's the thing, you know, we're taking the good with the bad, obviously. But what people don't understand is the way he was at home is not the person. I mean, you couldn't be more night and day, really. Because the way he was at home with us was very different. I think he was a good pa. He was amazing. He was a fantastic pa.

I think he was a good pa, right? When we were at the farm, he became very family-oriented. Everything was about what we were going to do collectively as a family. Before we go, I have a few more questions I want to run by Ed Sr. How has it been for you? I mean, we got a little bit of that. It scares the hell out of you. How your life has been as a suspect.

It scares the hell out of you. I didn't have any faith in the justice system. Well, it was a scary feeling. I mean, you know you had absolutely nothing to do with it and yet all these people are thinking that you do and you just sort of want to go and scream like, like, no, no. And there's still people out there believe that I did.

Then you read in the newspaper, there's my name, there's my company. Well, that's going to be hard to sell. I'm going to come and want to do something for you and you just blew up that guy? So it was really bad, because you are number one suspect and all that, right? They never actually said to us

that you were a suspect. I know, I asked, please, am I number one? He said, close. Ed Galick Sr. says he didn't kill Wayne, but he again muses about his own son, Ed Jr. So now, even hypothetically, Wayne, but he again muses about his own son, Ed Jr. so I'll do weighing in they're going to go after my pa so I get rid of weighing my pa and I got the business there you go, kill two birds with one stone

I don't think I'm capable of harming a person because I'd have to sleep, I mean I get angry like everybody else but that would be the farthest thing out of my mind, right in fact why would I even hurt you if I got to go to prison the rest of my life, I'd lose anyway right, why would I do that I don't have that capability it's just not in me I have to shoot to prison the rest of my life, I lose anyway, right? Why would I do that? I don't have that capability.

It's just not in me. I have to shoot the deer once in a while, and I don't even shoot them. I have to bring somebody in to shoot them because I can't kill them. I just cannot do that. I cannot take a living thing. We have problems squishing bugs sometimes. Well, we do really appreciate you guys taking the time. I appreciate you all coming down and talking to us.

Going down to meet the deer? Yeah, absolutely. That's the baby deer we had in the house. We were raising it. I told them all about it. After a conversation that weathered almost four hours, Danielle and Justin get up from the kitchen table. We walk outside and down to the deer pen.

Well, thank you very much. Thank you. It was a pleasure. It was a pleasure. Oh, I enjoyed seeing you. Take care. Thank you very much. I will do. Be in touch. Let us know how things go.

Absolutely. And you guys got our numbers too. Okay, Mr. CBC. Nice meeting you. You take care. Thanks a lot. In the van, Justin and Danielle reflect and gather their thoughts on the man they once called Uncle Ed. Just because Ed shared a lot with us and talked with us

and gave us hugs and shook our hands, until the person's caught, they will always, always be a person of interest to me. Well, I don't trust anybody either. Do you think Dad took money? Most definitely. Yeah. I was going in not wanting to have to paint a bad picture of Dad. What I'm realizing now is that I can't be naive to the point where I can think that

he was a great man to everyone else outside of his family, because by the sounds of it, he wasn't. He was an amazing father, and by the sounds of everything I'm learning, that is the extent of it. He was a good family man, and then anything outside of his family, it is turning into story after story of crap. How much of that is true? Well, I guess we're going to have to find that out.

Our intent was to go there with the sole purpose to try and keep the man talking. And I think we did that well, but in the process, I've walked away thinking that I betrayed him by just, you know, not sticking up for him I don't believe he was as bad as Ed made him out to be he lived and now he's dead and he can't defend himself against these accusations inside I hate to think that he might have ripped somebody off

and that caused his death or that he was abusing drugs that he might have ripped somebody off and that caused his death or that he was abusing drugs and that might have caused his death. He may have gotten mixed up with people and he may have taken money from people. That's a given. I think that it's very likely he did. And we have to come to terms with those facts but he wasn't a pig and he wasn't a thief as people might take that if he got himself in trouble and that's what killed him so be it it doesn't mean that you package up an explosive and send it to somebody's house and blow them up in front of their family.

You know, you don't do that. You don't have to do that. It's too severe for anything that he could have done. I'll be honest with you, this process is kind me, because I didn't really realize that there was so many avenues that were going to be opened up. I think he did steal money from people. I don't know if I believe the drug theory. I think he was scared. He was scared for his life. He was paranoid. And I think that's why. Did Wayne steal? Did he cheat?

Did he owe money, and if so, for what reason? The meeting with Ed Galick Sr., so difficult for the Gravettes, answered some questions, but brought many more with it. And walking away from it, other people have come to light that I need to speak to. In particular, Ed's son, Ed Jr., Eddie, little Ed. Smart, capable, weird by his father's definition, but a bomb builder? Facebook tells me that Ed Jr. lives somewhere out in Western Canada. I reach out to him with a message.

I'm hoping that you are the Ed Gaelic Jr. I'm looking for. Apologies if you're not. I'm creating a program for CBC about the case of Wayne Gravett. I'm looking for people who knew Wayne who might be able to tell me more about him. If you can spare some time, I'd be grateful if we could chat a bit about him. Thanks for your time, David Ridgen. Ed Galick Jr.'s reply comes quickly, saying, it's about time. Honestly,

when that happened, I was shocked. Should be interesting to find out what the hell happened there. I'd never ever wish their family or Wayne harm or anybody dead in my life. You have been listening to Episode 3, The Deer. Visit cbc.ca slash sks to learn more about the typewriter and daisy wheel

used to compose the letter and to find out how to submit a tip to the podcast. You can also join our listener community on Facebook and Twitter and be the first to hear about new content. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kampf, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Our theme song is Higher by Olenka Krakis. There's a road in the distance

That ends in a pit. Where a weeping was whimpered and fired. Someone Knows Something is a proud part of CBC Original Podcasts. Another podcast we think you'll like is Personal Best, a self-improvement show that helps you be your best you as best they can, given the constraints. My prediction is that I will be wholly unsuccessful five out of five days. You just went stone cold. You honestly think you're going to go 0 for 5?

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