Someone Knows Something - S4 Episode 4: D & L

Episode Date: February 26, 2018

A disturbing piece of information about Wayne's past is revealed and the Greavettes meet one of the people mentioned in the death letter. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season4/someone-knows-something-season-4-greavette-transcripts-listen-1.4517196

Does it feel like years since you felt good about a mortgage rate? Let Dominion Lending Centers help. If your mortgage is coming up for renewal, we can find a better rate and help you save. It's your mortgage renewal. Get the right rate for you. Find a mortgage expert in your area at dominionlending.ca. This is a CBC Podcast. Hello?

Hey, is Ed there? That's me. Hey Ed, it's Dave Ridgen calling from CBC. Hey, how you doing? I'm good. Is this a good time? Yeah, no worries, man. After receiving Ed Gaelic Jr.'s Facebook message, I arranged to speak to him by phone. Ed Jr. lives in Western Canada, so it'll take some more planning to actually get him in person. But having him on the line was a good opportunity to ask a few preliminary questions.

I think you probably knew Wayne pretty well, right? I knew him very well. I grew up with him. He was like my dad's son at that point. I mean, with my dad's relationship with Wayne, that was his son. You know what I mean? He was my boss for a very long time. But I mean, Serge was a family back then. It was all uncles and brothers and these guys always out drinking together and partying. I mean, you couldn't separate those guys. I asked Ed Jr. for his thoughts on Wayne's murder. Honestly, when that happened, I was shocked. I was shocked because I didn't know Wayne all that well.

We had been disconnected for a while. Because you've got to understand that when that was going on, I had left Surge, right? And I did. I started my own business and all that. And I'd left my dad as well. That's some years after Wayne left. He'd been in his own business. And I knew, because you hear in the industry, right, because there's all these people. And I knew that they got that new place there and they were trying to get into spring water. And I knew he was in the machinery business because I knew they were work, because we'd run into each other, that type of thing.

And I, you know, I'd driven by the house, and I thought, wow, that's a pretty neat place. You know, and then when that happened, I was blown away. Ed Jr. speaks quickly and with a bluntness that reminds me of his father. Both of the Eds were considered persons of interest by the police. I got questioned by the police. They came to my place. They wanted hair samples of this. I'm like, holy fuck, man. How many times did they question you and how much depth? Twice. Not very deep. Because I told them, buddy, get out of here, man.

If you're knocking on my door, you guys are way off base. You know what I mean? If you guys are coming here, you're way off base. Because I hadn't been in that circle for years at that point, you know? Like I said, I barely even knew where Wayne lived at that point. Do you have any interest in coming on camera? Sure, man. I mean, I don't know what I can help towards this day. I got to tell you something, man.

I can't believe nothing's been done, you know? You are listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Original Podcasts. In Season 4, David Ridgen continues the work he started nine years ago on the Wayne Gravett case. This is Episode 4. D andL.

Oh my, look at it out there. Hello David. How are you doing? I'm doing good. Wow, what a nasty day though. It was quite the ride up here. So what I'd like to do is drive, just drive by a couple of times. You can drive standard.

Yeah, oh no, I can't drive standard. Well, maybe, do we gotta go on the highway? It's not very far. No? You're taking a real chance with me. Okay, where's the seat thing here? Here, here, here. Okay, so there's that, there's the clutch.

Whoa, you're taking a real chance. There's my second straight down. Yeah. After speaking to little Ed on the phone and making plans for a more formal interview with him, Diane and I search for old friends and acquaintances who might be able to help with Wayne's case. Stay over to the left here a bit. Recording audio and driving manual is difficult,

so Diane has offered to take the wheel. Okay, now you're going to just kind of keep going straight onto that road. Okay, go straight up, don't make the... That's right, you're going straight. And the train track is brutal, so you've got to really go slow when you go right into first. You're doing great.

Oh, yeah. Seasoned professional. Seasoned professional, eh? Yep. Am I going too fast? Uh, not yet. At the moment, Diane and I are out looking for a man named Richard Lapp.

Richard Lapp was a friend, but a trucker. And he used to truck a lot of stuff around for us, like machinery and equipment. And he was over at our house lots. You know, he'd go and have beers with the guys like Ed and Wayne and the whole gang from Surge. They'd all go drinking. So you think Richard is just, again, he's another one of these guys that might know something. Richard is mentioned by several people we've spoken to

as someone I should talk to. Lep was never at the farm, according to Diane, but some have said he bears a resemblance to one of the sketches of the two men asking for Wayne's address at the Acton post office. But that doesn't mean much, if anything. Many people I've spoken to have different opinions of who the sketches may look like. You know, he was from a Mennonite family, or he was raised by a Mennonite family. Richard Lapp?

Yeah. I haven't talked to any of these people since it happened. Because, no, I don't want to call them. I don't want anybody to know where I live or nothing about me, man. Like, I can't keep going on this long. There's no closure. A lot of times I think about everything that the police have checked into, and we're probably talking to some people that they may have already talked to a hundred times,

and I ask myself, well, what more would we get out of them than maybe the police already got, right? But it's that many years later that maybe just something comes up, you know? Diane and I couldn't find Richard Lep, but I kept trying. Recently, I was able to find an address for Lep, but the fresh, untracked snow surrounding the place every time I visit suggests that no one actually lives here. It's mid-December. There's lots of snow on the ground. It's 2017. A week before Christmas, I've come down to the same southern Ontario town where I was looking for Richard Lep before. He worked in the beverage and packaging industry, knew Wayne, and some people have said that he may have something to say. Now here's the house and it didn't appear that anybody was living there the last time I was here and that looks like the case now.

I don't see any footsteps in the snow. There's a package delivery slip here for Richard Lep. Hmm. He doesn't seem to be answering the door. There's no footsteps except for mine leading up here. I don't think Richard Lep's living here, but his mail goes here. So I sent him a couriered letter but have yet to receive a response. I'm hopeful that the podcast of this case will reach the right set of ears. If you know anything about Wayne or his case, please get in touch.

I'll keep looking for Richard Lep. Luckily, there are others to find and speak to, like the two surge employees mentioned by name in the letter. You did some work for a company I was with a few years ago, and although you won't remember me, Lisa and your delivery man Joe most likely will. Police believe that the letter writer named two people Wayne knew to lull him into a false sense of security. But if the murderer knew of Joe and Lisa, was the reverse also true? Did they know of the murderer? And then Joe, do you remember Joe's last name? Yeah, Zatich.

That's a pretty easy name to find though. Yeah. Probably not very many Zatiches around. No, really. Okay, and then... Joe's given name, I discovered later, is actually Giuseppe, but everyone calls him Joe. Zatich, okay. Yeah.

Where did he... he used to live on that fish farm property. Yeah. And then he moved somewhere? I don't know where he moved the last time I knew he was on the fish property. There was a fish farm next door to the Gravettes farmhouse where Joe happened to live in a trailer. And did he live on the fish farm property before you moved there? Yep.

That's interesting. Did he never tell you about the spring property? Did he ever tell you about it before you saw the ad or anything like that? No. I was only just going through the papers, sitting at the house in Afton, and I happened to see it and thought, hey, there's a great thing. I mean, being that we were all involved in it, right? Interesting. It's very coincidental, isn't it, that he lived there, right? And he was also one of these guys mentioned in the note. I think that's just so weird.

Police say that it was just a coincidence that Joe lived so close and was also mentioned in the letter and that there was nothing untoward about it. Yeah, he had a trailer and that there. No, but he didn't tell us about the property at all. But it is weird that they would mention Joe.

But, you know, there again, you know, he worked for Surge and he worked for D&L. Yeah. So, you know. And it wasn't hard to get a delivery guy's name, right? Yeah, really. Well, you know, it's hard to say. But he was a great guy. He was our driver and he would get our stuff to the places.

And, you know, he was a good man and I hope he's well. Joe's been a tough one to find, so if anyone in the audience remembers or knows Giuseppe Joe Zatich, please write us at SKS. And then there's Lisa, who spells her name L-E-E-S-A differently than how it appeared in the letter, L-I-S-A. Lisa worked for Wayne and Ed at Surge and also became close with Diane. Her and I got to be friends and then she started coming over lots and then we'd always go every year for a girls' weekend where a bunch of us girls would go away. And she was my very close friend at that time.

We did everything together. In fact, when the Gravettes began their own company, it was called D&L Equipment Locators. D for Diane and L for Lisa. And it was called D&L for her to come and be a part of this company because she was my best friend. And I figured we'll all do it together like when Wayne got let go from Surge

after whatever happened over there, you know. I went out that week, got the company registered and did it in D&L. But after Wayne's murder and the subsequent police investigation, Diane discovered that there was more to Wayne and Lisa's relationship. Wayne, it turns out, had an affair with Lisa for years. I just was really disappointed to find out.

Apparently, I guess that she had been messing with Wayne since she started at Surge in Milton, from what I understand. And then I guess she carried it on when we were in Acton. She spent a lot of time at the house. She was always at the house. I started getting a little pissed off with Wayne because of his flirtatiousness with her. And so then Wayne and I started to argue a little bit in regards to it. I wasn't liking how things looked,

and he just thought it was just, you know, like I was wasting his time over something so trivial, you know, like so stupid, right? And police discovered that Lisa wasn't the only woman Wayne had affairs with while he was married to Diane. I mean, I knew him since I was 15, like 23 years we were together. And by the sounds of it to me from what the police he was a very active man out there with a lot of other women so I just like I'm where he found the time to do it for Christ's sake like at first I was devastated actually I felt like a real twit to be honest with you like how could all that go on and me not know? And then you find out all these things,

and you think that you knew somebody so well, and yet you didn't know them really. Sometimes, some nights he didn't come home, and it would be the next morning he would walk through the door, and his excuse would be that he had too much to drink and stayed over at someone's place. A lot of times there, I questioned that. You know, I thought maybe he was messing around.

And he said to me, Diane, why would I take that chance? He said, I've got you and the kids. Do you really think that I would give all this up just for being with another woman? That's why I don't understand this other life that he had. Like each time the police would call me and say, well, do you know this girl? Or do you know this girl in Brantford? And, you know, Wayne had a thing going with her. And one time there, the police had said to me, they had called me in regards to this girl in Brantford. And apparently Wayne had stayed there for a couple weeks.

And what I was told was that he confided in her that he had a problem. And so now I'm in there digging. Well, what do you mean? Like, you mean he told her and he wouldn't tell me his own wife? Like, I came home from the police station, and, you know, I was bawling my eyes out. And I phoned my girlfriend, and I phoned any girl I knew because I wanted to find out who else did he.

It was almost like he was like a predator. He was predating on my girlfriends. So I phoned my girlfriend. I said, I just come back from the police station, and I told her about Lisa, and I said, I got to ask you, I said, did he come on to you too? And she didn't say anything for a minute. And then I said, like, did he come on to you too? And she said, Diane, I don't want to talk about it on the phone. She said, I think, you know, I'll grab her husband and we'll come up together. And she said, but I'll have to explain it to the phone. She said, I think, you know, I'll grab her husband and we'll come up together.

And she said, but I'll have to explain it to him first. So they came up, both of them. And what she told me was that she was lying in bed and Wayne had come in there and crawled in beside her and started to neck with her. And then she realized it was Wayne and told him to get the hell out or whatever. That's all she said. I don't know if it ever went further than that. Could Wayne's affairs have had something to do with his murder? I kept thinking that we're thinking it's all the springs and everything but then I

also think that maybe it's the part where there's a jealous husband and the husband found out that Wayne's been after these girls and I talked with the police and that about it because they said like maybe if he's excuse my phrase fuck that many. And one of the husbands found out, for what I knew, my life was way, I loved him. And you know what? Sometimes he wasn't a really nice guy. Sometimes he was, you know, very, he was very dominating and he controlled my life. And he pretty well told me what I could do and what I couldn't do. But he was a good father. He was a good husband.

And I looked up to him so much. Like, he was just so smart. Because we were a team. That's how I looked at it, because we were a team. That's how I looked at it, always. We were a team. I went through a real bad depression there, and I'm working on it. I just thought that maybe I was such a bad wife and everything else that my way would have to go out and do all this stuff

and blame myself for it. It took it real personal for a while because I just didn't understand, you know, and so mad at Wayne. But I'm not feeling sorry for myself or nothing. I've said I had a life and it was taken away, you know. And even if it was miserable sometimes, it was my life, my choice to be there. And somebody took that choice away from me. They took it away from all of us, really. The news of Wayne's affairs, though difficult to hear,

hasn't deterred the family's search for the truth behind his murder. Danielle questioned Detective Constable Paul Johnson about this area of the investigation. Do you find that that's the area that you have the least amount of information on, is his affairs? Yes, because I mean, we've got bankers' boxes full of business records,

and we know all the people they did business with. If it was a business-related, we have the files we can look we can go and talk to these people but the private side of his life the side of his life that he kept to himself we don't have any information on it but obviously you guys would have names because obviously you know that he had affairs so you would know that somehow by people who have come forward and said that they've had affairs with him. We have talked to some, but there's the potential for there to be more, and if that's the case, then what we're hoping for is for somebody to come forward.

And someone needs to come forward, even if confidentially. Police say they investigated all the affairs they knew of to no avail. But maybe there is one out there they didn't know about. a mortgage rate? Let Dominion Lending Centers help. If your mortgage is coming up for renewal, we can find a better rate and help you save. It's your mortgage renewal. Get the right rate for you. Find a mortgage expert in your area at dominionlending.ca. Oh, that coffee smells good. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing? That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee. Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with mortgage payments on their minds. If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank.

The earlier they understand your situation, the more options and relief measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. Keep going. It's past this bunch of shrubbery and stuff up here. Danielle and Justin decide to visit Lisa to talk for the first time about the case and about her affair with their father. Yeah, front or side doors?

Hi. Hello. Hello. Do you remember me? No. It's Danielle. Gravette. Oh my God.

Where are you guys? Oh my God, are you grown up? How's it going? You knew I was here? Well, we figured it out. We didn't know if we would talk here. This is David, actually, from CBC. Hi, how are you doing?

Lisa is shorter with curly blonde hair, a sleeveless dark shirt and hoop earrings, and perfectly manicured nails. She invites us into her kitchen for a chat. What would be, like if you were to speculate, what would be the direction you would say that we should take? I don't want to say it, but I'm scared about saying the drug part because all we smoked was dope, like pot.

But you might have to go money-wise. Because I thought at one point maybe Richard had something because he was the driver and I don't know about that, right? Richard? Richard that was from St. Catharines. Richard Lep? Yeah. Yeah, okay.

I thought maybe, right? Richard Lep, the man Diane and I were already looking for, comes up again. A friend and co-worker of Wayne's, someone to try talking to. And Justin asks about another name that has also come up. Ed Gaelic Jr., also known as Little Ed or Eddie. What about Little Ed and my dad's relationship? Bad, very bad, very, very bad. How bad? Like, do you remember?

Very bad, very bad. Wayne and Eddie just didn't work together. They fought a lot on the quotes and pricing and Wayne wanted it run a certain way and Eddie just did it his way. Were there any major confrontations between the two? Yeah, yeah. Physical? No, no physical. There was never any physical.

But yeah, they had good fights in that building. Yeah, yeah. Physical? No, no physical. There was never any physical. But yeah, they had good fights in that building. And I do know that when Ed came back, it didn't matter about Wayne anymore. Ed took over the back. He got right involved back again when he came back. Especially the last time, when things started to get going and shuffling. I could feel the tension. Justin and Danielle ask about the odd behavior that Ed Sr. says he witnessed in Wayne

and how Wayne seemed to change at work. Did he kind of go into the same kind of habits that he did while he was at Surgis? Oh, he got lazy. I found your dad got lazy. Just lazy. Didn't want to push anymore. Now he was having trouble answering phones. He never wanted to answer. And that goes with the laziness. Oh yeah. But, you know, was there people calling that were angry to you?

Oh yeah. What were they angry about? Because he wouldn't return his calls. He was always out. Would he take money first before doing the jobs? We were on the 50-40-10. 50-40-10 meaning that D&L would ask for 50% of payment up front before a job commenced, then 40% upon delivery, and then the final 10% 30 days later. Ed Galick said that in some cases Wayne would take that 50% payment and not complete the job.

So he would take 50 and then just not deliver? Yep. And then what? He just seemed like he gave up? Yeah, he gave up. Yep. Your dad gave up. Did Dad steal money? I can't say no. He did sell things and pocket it, yes. Well that we've heard.

Yes. But he wouldn't have brought it there. He would have done it on the side and but through it so through search or no no it wasn't D&L it would be on his own and he would just do cash on the table that would be it okay no I don't know who but yeah he did do deal like what kind of amounts would would we be talking about I would only do it I would say that I don't really know but I know like maybe five thousand it wasn't big huge amount yeah your dad wasn't greedy he just wanted money for the family and basically that was about it did he confide in you at all like you were kind of a best friend on the side

kind of maybe things that he didn't want to tell his wife we didn't really talk about things working you know like he was always doing business. I mean, yes, he would pick me up and go to some place. He would drop me off and then pick me back up so I wouldn't be seen. Or he'd do night things and go to like a place that was broken down. So see, I've thought about it too, you guys, and see, it's unfortunate because I broke away from them, right? So whatever they did after I had broken my wings from them, I've lost that, I don't know, year and a half, two years, right? How did you find out? Newspaper. And when I came home, there was a Sergeant Detective detective card on my front door. Oh really?

I didn't know anything about it. I was at a skating competition in Acton. Walked up my front door to a police car. Didn't know what was going on. Walked in the house. Shocked. Shocked. What was your experience like with the cops? Oh very intense. Extremely intense. Because I apparently What I... experience like with cops? Oh very intense, extremely intense because I apparently, what I, what was I, Rocky was the jealous boyfriend and I was the jealous girlfriend. That's what it came out as. Rocky, a trucker, had also been seeing Lisa. But like by then I was a Rocky and I like I had broke strings from your parents so whatever they did like that's totally up to them I you know are you still in touch with that rocky guy? Do you have any knowledge of where he might be? I'd be interested in talking to him. It's a trucker right long distance cross-country

Yeah, he was do you what do you think rocky? Yeah? No, why not? What makes you say no? Why would he leave me with a eight-page letter saying that he's having an affair with a lady down the street? Why would Rocky be jealous of Wayne, Lisa reasoned, if Rocky was also seeing somebody on the side? Did they grow you pretty hard? Oh my God, yes. Did you take a lie detector test?

Uh, no. Did they ask you to? Uh, yeah. And you said no? Yeah, I said yeah, of course. Oh, you test? Uh, no. Did they ask you to? Uh, yep. And you said no? Yep, I said yeah, of course. Oh, you would? Oh, absolutely.

There'd be no reason why I wouldn't. Why wouldn't I? Yeah. No, I'm just curious. They pulled hair out of my head. Oh, they did? For DNA. Lisa also says they took Rocky's DNA by plucking his hair.

Justin turns the conversation back to Wayne. Did he ever write you letters or anything? Lots. Do you have them? I will look. Try. Please try. Oh yeah, I've got letters. Oh yeah. Okay. We would love to take a look at them. Yes. And there's going to be letters when you find them that you're going to say, you know what, it's going to hurt the kids if they

see this or it's not. No, it doesn't matter, right? It hurts a heck of a lot. We were well aware of it. Do you realize how I felt knowing that your dad was gone and how you guys must have felt that I was his mistress? I feel like this big. I thought that secret would never, ever, ever come about. I'm sorry. It happened.

Yeah. But I'm quite sure, as you know, I'm not the only one. Yeah, absolutely not. And you just break it off and he moved on to somebody else. Lisa is open and helpful, even though in the wake of Wayne's murder, she was and remains frightened. Her name was in the letter.

And then finally I went over to DML. As we continue talking Lisa remembers something else. If I look in my, I will get it out this weekend, in my computer I have that old 286, I don't know if you remember that. Holy crap! And I should pull it out and see what's on there. Did the police ask to see it? No. It's a long shot, but if there are files on that ancient computer

from Lisa's days at Surge and D&L, maybe they'll be helpful to police. We're not upset with you for that stuff. That was him doing what he did. So we just, like I said, any help you can give us would be awesome. Okay. Awesome. Thank you very much. Take care. Nice to see you.

Nice to see you. I don't understand. It's frustrating. We've been waiting 12 and a half years, and one of the aspects even the police think could possibly be is his affair stuff, yet after 12 and a half years, they wouldn't ask her a five-year affair, whether or not he wrote her letters, or check her computer, or check to see if she had a typewriter possibly. Like, I mean, it's just, it's ludicrous.

It's crazy. Yeah. But Lisa is unable to find the letter she thought she had. The windows are fogged up. Let's try and see if we can unfog them. And so Diane has decided that she too would like to visit Lisa, on her own, to see if she can draw more information out of her that could help the case. We're on our way to go see Lisa. Yeah, of course it's hard.

Yeah. But it's got to be done, right? I'm not looking forward to it, but you know what? I'm okay with it because I want to get this case solved. So you do what you got to do, right? I'm ready for her anyways. Don't worry. I won't freak out on her. Oh, that's it, yeah.

Okay. Well, pal, here it goes. Side door, eh? Here she goes. Side door, eh? Hello stranger! Hello! Oh my God! Oh, Diane! You didn't recognize me?

Oh no, come in! We've arrived at Lisa's an early evening. You know, really we need your help. So we were hoping that maybe you could sit with us for a couple minutes. Come on in. Would you mind? Yeah, come on in. Okay, that'd be great.

Not as awkward as predicted, at least on the surface. But enough time has gone by that Diane and Lisa are able to begin delving into Wayne, the past, and the case almost right away. Best buddies, man. We went everywhere together. God, we did everything together. We went everywhere together. We knew how each other was feeling. We were sisters. So, if you don't mind me asking, how did it end up being with you and Wayne?

Like, how did all that happen? He addressed it. Did he? I certainly did. He was the aggressor towards that day. And to be honest, I remember Dean. Remember my boyfriend Dean? Yeah.

He made me break off with him New Year's Eve when I went up to Edna Alfrance. Wayne was so mad. And then every time Dean came over, I'd have to hide the car in the garage. And yeah, because he was going to fire me. Oh, yeah. And I needed that job. Lisa says that Wayne was angry that she was also seeing a man named Dean and that Wayne wanted her to break up with Dean or Wayne would fire her. Lisa says because she needed the job, she complied and broke up with Dean. I dumped him on the phone and that was it. Never saw him again. Never called him, never saw him, nothing. Never, ever again.

And Wayne made you do that? Yep. Oh yeah. Lisa says she finally broke things off with Wayne, but not until she had already left D&L. According to Lisa, Wayne didn't take it very well. Oh, he was mad. Was he? Yeah, and he kept phoning. I wouldn't answer the phone. He kept knocking. I wouldn't answer the door.

Oh, he was not happy. And how long would that have been before he passed away? Do you think that you broke it off? I don't know because I broke it off. Well, I had left D&L. Yeah. Because I got laid off. Yeah. And then it was like then when I said that this is enough. Like I have to move on with my life. Yeah. And I had said that to him, it's over. I can't do this anymore. No, because, no, no, no. I would say May-ish, June-ish.

Of 96? Lisa says she ended her relationship with D&L, and following that with Wayne, around May or June of 1993 or 1994. But they sporadically kept in touch, and Lisa even visited the farm property once in 1996. Diane continues talking about Wayne's behaviour around the time of the farm purchase and after moving in. And I know that when we bought the farm, Wayne had been quite depressed prior to that. And miserable. He wasn't very happy, you know.

And then when I had found the springs and presented him with it, first he had no interest. And then I got him and Ma to go for a drive and go over there and take a look at it. Well then, you know, he was all keyed up again. Diane didn't learn about Wayne's relationship with Lisa until after the murder investigation began in the wake of Wayne's December 1996 murder. The chances of the two of us ever getting together, back then I could have choked you, you know. Here we are being able to sit on the same couch and talk about a man that we very much cared for,

which obviously you did too. But I wanted to break things off many, many times, many, many, and he wouldn't let me. What do you mean he wouldn't let you? He just kept coming over and kept coming over. Did he ever get physical with you? No, never. Never? To you, at least, it would be volatile like that, right? Did he ever get physical with you? No, never. Never. Oh, to you, at least it would be volatile like that, right?

At any time he was like... No. No, that's... He was not a violent man. No, that's not necessary. You knew how he treated me sometimes. Well, yeah, but he wasn't violent. No, not violent.

He never hid or... Well, he hid, but he didn't leave marks or stuff like that. You know, I mean, I got a good few shots, man. You didn't know that? No. Oh, Jesus, man, yeah. I got thrown out of the house. I got so many things.

But you know what? It was just he was the only man I ever knew. I loved him, you know. He was my everything. And, yeah, I got smucked a couple of times. No, I didn't know that. It's in the past now. I only want closure from me and my kids.

I don't give a shit now anymore because I've heard so much about all these relationships. It's not a big deal anymore. It hurt me big time, but right now I just want closure, you know. I want to move on, and so do the kids, and we need help. Bye. Thank you for letting us come in and talk, okay? Yeah. Diane's visit with Lisa comes to an end and as we drive away

it's clear how hard it has been on her I'm thinking that I'm really I don't really have anything to say right now you know I really don't know how I feel. I just... We drive to Diane's home in silence. Investigations like this one bring forward information that can't be unknown. Pictures in your head that you cannot unsee.

Revelations about people you thought you knew that forever change you. And it's through this process that cases must be approached by family members. Like willfully walking through an unmarked minefield. The gravettes keep moving forward but stepping carefully, and I can see that part of the reason is that they need to do this. It's as much about freeing themselves as it is about anything for Wayne. For Wayne. Visit cbc.ca slash sks to see crime scene photos and to find out how to submit a tip to the podcast. You can also join our listener community on Facebook and Twitter and be the first to hear about new content. Someone Knows Something is a proud part of CBC Original Podcasts.

If you're looking for more great podcasts in other styles and genres, check out Alone, A Love Story. Alone is a memoir by Michelle Parisi who takes you on a journey from new love, marriage, and baby to betrayal and loneliness. Subscribe in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to SKS.

Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kampf, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Our theme song is Higher by Olenka Krakus. Baby, oh baby, where shall we go? In my dreams there's a house on the bed. Okay, we're ready. Well, it'll be interesting to see what these guys find on this computer. All dad's evidence isn't here, right?

I'll grab the monitor. Okay, got it. Hi. We're here to see Paul Johnson. Hi, Paul. Hi, Connie. Everything on Lisa's computer here. And this is the computer that she used back during the time that she was working with you on D&L?

Yeah. Okay. computer that she used back during the time that she was working with you on dna yeah okay will they be able to dig in there and find out like when she was last on it and oh yeah let's do the property reports and bob's your uncle for more cbc podcasts go to cbc.ca slash podcasts