Someone Knows Something - S4 Episode 5: Jr.

Episode Date: March 5, 2018

David and the Greavette family track down every available lead, investigating whether Wayne's murder is linked to the water industry, biker gangs or organized crime. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/season4/someone-knows-something-season-4-greavette-transcripts-listen-1.4517196

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This way? Room one? Al? Yeah? Did you know a guy named Wayne Gravett? Yeah. You knew a guy named Wayne Gravett? Yeah. And did you used Wayne Gravett? Yeah. You knew a guy named Wayne Gravett? Yeah.

And did you used to work with him? Yeah. Can I talk to you a bit? I work for CBC. I'm doing a program about him and I wanted to talk to anybody that knew him. No. Because I heard that you knew him very well and that no, no, I have no comment to make about that man, I don't like him I don't want to know about him I don't want to have no business

with him he screwed me over and that's it no, that's it I don't want no more, that's it I'm done, goodbye, thank you I'm at a dingy motel that appears to be made solely of concrete blocks in southern Ontario. The man who just slammed the big green metal door in my face is Alan Unruh. Al is just one of Wayne's many former co-workers and associates I'm trying to find,

and apparently Al is ex-military with experience in explosive ordnance. Maybe he knows something. On the door, staring at me, a crude chalk drawing of a smiley face sticking out its tongue. There's not much left to do but leave. Back in my car, I sit stewing long enough to see Al emerge from his building and walk down the street. Did something happen

between Al and Wayne? I decide to approach Al again and follow him into a bar that he's gone into. You owe me an apology? You owe me an apology? Yeah. Who are we talking about, Wayne Gravett? Wayne Gravett.

Yeah, okay, I know Wayne Gravett. I started thinking I thought we were talking about somebody else. I understand that you were good friends with the Gravett family. Yeah, actually, we were. Like, I was working for a conveyor or something, but I heard about that. And I heard it was like a flashlight. You got a package or something in the mail, and you open it up, and boom. Al looks to be in his 50s, disheveled but clear-eyed, in a green collared golf shirt.

We settle at a corner table near a pinball machine to talk about Wayne and his murder. How does it strike you, the way that he was killed? I mean, if someone really wanted someone dead, why would they do that with a bomb? That I find really strange. It would be a better way to off somebody than that way. Be a next military to myself. What were you in the military?

Combat engineers. How long were you in the engineers? 17 years. Where were you? Petawala? Yeah, Petawala, Chilliwack, Jeremy, Cypress. What kind of explosives did you work with anyway? Oh, plastic and foresight, trowel, trained to go in, look for them, defuse them. Now was there anyone else that you knew in the industry or the business that had military experience like you or that had been able to handle plastic explosives or anything like that?

Not what I was in there. I guess the police were probably interested in that too, right? Oh geez, yeah, they got involved one side and down the other side. Did they make you take a lie detector? No. I wouldn't lie to them, man. They'd say, yeah, I know about that stuff. I'd say, nah, I wouldn't do it.

At some point, I spoke to somebody that said that you had heard someone say that the killing was related to drugs or something like that. Well that could be, but we don't know that. It just surmises me. Did you hear from somebody else that? Well, you know, the fire talk and all that, that we're trying to figure out, okay, the guy gets a flashlight bomb and they mail. Now, what's this all about? Now, who's going to mail it? Is it the mafia? Or is it the bikers?

Part of the speculation. Nobody came up to you and said, I have information that says he was killed. No, nobody in particular. We were just sitting, talking, discussing. And we're trying to wonder what. Or what happened. I talk to Al for about an hour, but don't hear anything new. Okay. Thanks very much.

Good. Good to meet you. Sorry about the hard time. No, no, that's okay. I'm used to that. That's what I do. Get the hard time. that's okay. I'm used to that. That's what I do. Get the hard time. That's okay. You are listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Original Podcasts. In season four, David Ridgen continues the work he started nine years ago on the Wayne Gravett case.

This is episode five, Junior. Just say a few words in this one. I'm sure you can get this audio sort of out of here. Hello, David. I'm happy that you're here helping us. I am happy, so happy you're doing this for us. Any positive that comes of telling Wayne's story will come from the Gravette's involvement in the investigation, getting all the details out. Someone listening now definitely knows something about this case. I realized after Wayne died,

there was a couple of dates, like a truck that pulled in the driveway when Wayne and I were there. The more Diane and I were there. The more Diane and I go over the days and months leading up to Wayne's death, the more memories seem to shake loose. Diane says Wayne was exhibiting some paranoid behavior. Did Wayne know his life was in danger? And my husband was really jumpy there for a little while,

you know, running to check and see who pulled in the driveway. And he seen this truck out there, and he used to call me Dino. Dino was my nickname for him. And he said, Dino, come on, let's go, because the truck was pulling out. Let's go, he says, let's go see who that was. And he grabbed the end of a pool cue stick with a hard brass end on it. And he grabbed it and we ran out the door like I'm just following him, you know.

And they said, oh, okay, let's go see who it is, right? And he went burning out the driveway and we made a left. And he was bombing up the road to try and catch whoever that was. Well, we must have went the wrong way maybe because we didn't see anybody up there. And or whoever it was may have went the other way. So he was very uptight to know who that was that pulled in the driveway. Close to the time of Wayne's murder, Diane says she received a phone call from a person who said they worked for Bell Telephone.

Wayne's reaction to the call seems out of place. Diane tells me about it as we drive on the country roads around Moffat. But it's the same as the call from Bell Canada, saying that this was before Wayne died as well, that they had noticed that our company name in the book and, you know, wanted to know exactly what it was we were doing and what we did. This is Bell Canada?

This is, the guy said he was from Bell Canada and wanted to know what it was we did. And I was explaining that we rebuilt and serviced packaging machinery and built them there. And then Wayne walked in when I was talking away on the phone and he got really pissed off and he told me to get off the phone. So I did, I got off the phone and he was yelling at me just don't

tell everything about our business and everything else like I forget exactly all his words but he was really mad Wayne was really mad at you yeah people about the business and this was when you were in the farmhouse at the farmhouse somebody calls and they want to know what you do in business well you know you don't think twice about telling them what you do. I mean, to be honest, I thought it was strange at first getting the call from Bell Canada, thinking that, you know, what would make them be going through and pick out our number to call. Remember I was telling you about Justin got this call, it was from a trucker, and the trucker was going to send him a T-shirt.

When was that? Was that before the bombing? Before the bombing, yeah. According to Diane, in the weeks prior to when Wayne was murdered, Justin had taken a call at the farm from a person saying they worked for a trucking company. The person wanted the Gravette's new address, and in return, according to the caller,

they would receive free t-shirts. Justin started to give it to them and then I said no, like you don't even know who they are. So he didn't give it all. Other examples of Wayne's odd behavior occur. Wayne leaves the farm to pick up a horse in another town. He plans to ride it back. When he leaves the farm, he's in a great mood, Diane says, but when he returns, Wayne is completely changed as if something dreadful has happened on the road, and he's inconsolable. Hi there. Hi Diane, it's David. All these stories about Wayne's behavior and the phone calls can seem odd in retrospect. Everything seems weird in the wake of a flashlight bomb.

And in December 2017, I received a call from Diane about another troubling call she says she received just weeks before. Sorry about that. You know what, I just sometimes get a little bit spooked, you know, when we're doing stuff and everything. And all of a sudden that call just came out of the blue and the way that the guy talked and everything. It just spooked me. Tell me about it. Well, the phone rang and I, like, I don't have have because I very seldom use my regular phone so I picked it up and the guy's voice was real deep and you know and he says uh is this Diane Gravett and I said yes and that's what he said I'm calling from Bell and he said you're entitled to get three movies

or whatever and that's how the, I didn't keep it long because I just said to him, no, I said, you know what, if I'm interested, I'll call Bell Direct. And then I hung up from the guy. But just even answering the phone and talking to the guy, it spooked me right then because the guy's like, just, you know, I can't even say it, but his voice was real deep and it just was not a Bell rep.

Bell is one of Canada's largest phone, cable, and internet service providers, so on its face, a call like this isn't all that strange. And so for a couple of days went by, and, you know, and you and I are chatting about different stuff and everything, and I just thought, geez, I just wonder, you know, and you and I are chatting about different stuff and everything. And I just thought, geez, I just wonder, you know. So I decided to call Belle. And so I was talking to Belle and I told her what had happened. So she put me on hold for a couple of minutes and then she come back and she said,

no, Diane, she said, it wasn't us who called you. And then I just thought to mention it to you because, like, it just was unusual and just the way the guy spoke and everything. And I thought, like, you're digging right deep into things. And, you know, because I always remember that bell call that came before Wayne passed away. And then it was right after that when Justin got the phone call from the trucking company. And then it wasn't a week or two later when everything happened. So it just caught me weird that this person was calling from Bell and saying that I was going to get free movies and stuff like that.

And it just brought me back to that time when Bell called D&L. Did this person or did another person ever call again talking about this? No, it just happened all so quick. It just spooked me a little, that's all. Police have been told about this new 2017 call. And back in 1996, whether Wayne was just being careful about his privacy or something more is hard to know. Wayne Gravett was a good personal friend of mine. Very small, timid, shy person. Outgoing.

He was energetic. He had a motorcycle and a boat. He tried to enjoy his life. Danny Sheltgen, a former colleague and associate of Wayne's, says he spoke to Wayne on the morning he was killed. Was Wayne acting paranoid then? I got to know the family quite well. They were very good friends of mine. Sheltgen is sitting in his living room on a lawn chair, striped shirt, short hair, graying at the temples, and glasses propped on top of his head.

And he's smoking a cigarette. I was talking to him an hour before it happened, and I still had equipment over at his farm that I had to pick up from his shop after he was killed, and it was a pretty bad scene. So when you called him on that day, Danny, did you notice anything different about the way he was talking? Not at all.

Actually, he made jokes with me that morning. I can't even remember the joke that he told me, but it was pretty funny, and my boss laughed about it too. But I had called him about a piece of equipment. It was a cap sorter that he was rebuilding for us. It was supposed to be ready, and it wasn't delivered yet. So I called him, and he said he was bringing it the next day. So tell me a bit about the beverage and packaging business back in the 90s in Ontario, at least,

or in Canada. Well, I started back in the 80s in the beverage industry with Original New York Seltzer. And that's where I met Wayne Gravett because I was purchasing equipment from Surge Beverage Equipment. Surge was the largest food and beverage equipment company in Canada. They service the United States and Canada. So they're quite a large operation. They built Aberfoyle Springs, which is now Nestle's Waters Canada, which is the largest spring water manufacturer, I believe, in Canada. And they also built pretty well every other bottling and beverage plant in Ontario and quite a few of them in

the United States and I always dealt directly with Wayne and Wayne worked with me his nickname was Wiener but he worked with me finding me employment anytime I was out of work he wanted to get me into a plant where I could buy his equipment. So tell me what you've been thinking about the case since it happened. I didn't know what to think at first. You know, all these allegations and rumours about Weiner or Wayne. You know, to me they were unfounded. Shortly after Wayne's murder, some news articles came out

suggesting that his killing was somehow linked to his alleged involvement with a motorcycle gang. But this notion was quickly discounted by police. It was media hype saying he was involved in drugs and hanging out with the motorcycle club and what have you. I didn't know Wayne to be that way. I've been to his place many times. I've known him for many, many years.

I got to know his wife personally, his kids personally. So I was totally shocked with what happened. But I also knew that there was other things that had happened. I call it a jealousy rival. Ed Sr. had a son named Ed Jr., and Ed Jr. was basically a few years younger than Wayne. Wayne would have been, I think, around 40, and Ed Jr. would have been in his late 20s or early 30s. And Wayne Gravett was ordered by his dad, Ed Sr., which was Wayne's boss, to throw Ed Jr. out of the shop. And who do I suspect? I always thought that it was a paid hit, but by whom, I didn't know.

Danny Sheltkin says he bought Surge from Ed Galick Sr. and that he also worked with Ed Jr. So I joined forces with Ed Jr. Within a year, I had purchased his dad's company, Surge Beverage Equipment, and all their assets. So I just couldn't win. No matter what I did, somebody was out to get me out of the business. I found out that my employees went into cahoots with Ed Sr. and tried to steal the company back and take over and open up their own business.

I went to the police. I mean, I explained to them all that was going on. And I told them, I says, you know, this guy's... I've heard rumors that people have died around him. There's people that have died suspiciously that have known Ed Sr. through their business years. Here, Danny is referring to Wayne's murder and also that of Paul Hentonen.

Hentonen, who also worked in the industry, was stabbed to death in May 2002. Here, it's important to remember that Ed Gaelic Sr. has denied any involvement in the murder of Wayne Gravett. It was fairly suspicious to me. I was fairly nervous, you know, and I went to the OPP and they did an interview with me and I explained to them my suspicions and they said, well, why don't you just get away from this guy? Danny says that the business relationship he had with Ed Jr.

at the time became strained. We owned it together as a company, T&E. I was the sole owner. Ed Jr., I used him to manage the company and manage the business. He knew the business very well. And he recommended that I move into this building. And I did that, and when I did that, everything was fine. I hear a few weeks later, I'm working down in Michigan

doing an installation for a fella, that the OPP are looking for me because there was a flashlight planted in the building. And they cordoned off the building, and they did their investigation. It was just a flashlight, but it was suspiciously left. I don't have any information about this supposed additional flashlight from the OPP.

When you say the flashlight was suspiciously left, what does that mean? Well, that's all the police told me. I never seen it. I don't know anything. I really don't. I was never back to that shop after I was locked out by the landlord. But it's too scary when they're saying, well, that was a suspicious flashlight. So there had to be a reason for it being suspicious. They wouldn't go into any detail. Oh, my phone. Hello?

Hello? Not bad, what's up? I've actually got the interview going on here. Yeah. Okay, oh. All right, okay. That's Ed Jr. What a coincidence, eh? He's at the shop. That was Ed Jr.? Yeah. Isn't that a coincidence? Yeah, he said give him a call when he's done.

Ed Jr. calls Danny during our interview. A coincidence, but from the call, it's clear that Ed Jr. knows I'm interviewing Danny. After Danny hangs up, we leave the suspicious flashlight incident on the back burner. Police have never said that the incident led them anywhere on the Gravette investigation. Cash is nothing in this business. $5,000 doesn't mean nothing, but $5,000 can get a person killed.

Now, my son, who's got a bad record, was dating one of the Hells Angels' daughters in London, Ontario, and I'm still friends with this guy. This guy knew the outlaws were paid to do the hit. That's all I know, and, you know, even saying that, it's like I would have to reveal this outlaw, former outlaw, Hell's Angel biker who's semi-retired. He's a good fella and his

daughter's already gone. And, you know, there's a lot of sentiment there. But anybody could have paid that money. It could have been an angry person who bought a bunch of equipment and lost their business. It could have been and all these, it could have been an angry person who bought a bunch of equipment and lost their business. It could have been, and all these, it could have been, but I always thought it was such a rivalry between Wayne Gravett, Ed Jr., and Ed Sr. Speculations about Wayne's murder have covered a lot of ground, from rip-offs to other women, and now to biker gangs. I've even been told by a credible source that Wayne was some kind of informant and that his killing was related to organized crime,

but they won't go on record or provide their sources. And a former OPP officer has told me that, to the best of his knowledge, Wayne never helped police in any investigations. Sheltgen's assertion about hearing Wayne's murder was a paid outlaw hit seems significant in my ears, but it's difficult to get information directly from bikers, especially the 1% variety. Detective Paul Johnson, for one, doesn't buy the biker connection. One of the neighbors had been interviewed by the radio or some newspaper back around the time of the explosion, and they had said that there was a lot of motorcycles in and out of this barbecue.

So the newspaper made the connection that it must be biker-related, you see. Right. Just because the guy rode a motorbike. Yeah. Okay. In a 1999 book, Canadian reporter and biker specialist Yves Lavin also connected Wayne's death to bikers.

The author claimed that Wayne was killed because he did not want to become an outlaw biker at a local club. But Diane says she never saw anything that indicated Wayne could be a one-percenter or part of a violent biker club. You know, that they had said about Wayne and everything, being involved with the bikers and all of this stuff, you know, that they had said about Wayne and everything, being involved with the bikers and all of this stuff, you know. And I just think that the press sometimes, they just made life hell. I guess it's all about selling a story or getting the publicity from the story

and not thinking about the people that are left behind. Again, OPP detective Paul Johnson says their research has been exhaustive and that there is no biker connection. We flogged it like a dead horse. Because it's just the pro job, right? Like cutting out the EPC code, all that stuff. Yeah.

The use of the explosives. When you say it's flogged, I mean, you must have some contact within the network, right? You actually talk to the bikers and stuff? Yeah, there was a huge amount of time and effort with special units put into looking down any traditional organized crime connection. I reach out to Peter Edwards, a Toronto Star reporter and the author of over a dozen books on topics from bikers to organized crime to get his take.

Edwards has graying hair, navy shirt with a navy coat, with a reporter's pad spilling out of his pocket. The death of Wayne Gravett was a big news story at the time, so average people were talking about it. Definitely bikers would have been. It was in the news. I don't see a major biker club connection. If someone had passed through a biker club and done it,

that's possible, but I really doubt that this was anything organized by a biker club. I know several people who were in the Satan's Choice at that time, and they're extremely proud that they weren't subtle. One of the worst things you could call them is a conniver. And this is a sneaky way of doing a crime and kind of a cowardly way.

And they like to be right up in your face. This is who I am. Like they would be in your face. You'd see them. They'd pride themselves on letting you know who's doing it and why. Was Wayne actually a member of a biker gang? I don't know of him being a member of a biker club. I'm pretty much positive he wasn't a member of a 1% club. A 1% club is one of the heavy duty clubs.

So you're talking Hells Angels, Outlaws, Banditos, the bigger clubs. He wasn't in anything like that and the satan's choice were a one percenter club i just don't see it as a satan's choice type of thing outlaws either like i just well unless someone was actually hired to do it but just the old bikers i know the big part of their mindset is um this is who i am deal with me like the idea of sneaking around is almost an admission that there's something wrong with you that's why they wear the huge patches on their backs. They wear identification saying who they are. Like they, rather than sneak around and deny who they are,

they scream it from a block away. If you want to get an outlaw biker upset, say he's not in the club. If you say he's in the club, yeah, I've never had a Hells Angel get upset with me for saying he's a Hells Angel. If I said they weren't a Hells Angel, that they're a former Hells Angel, they would get upset. So you think rather than blow Wayne up from afar or with an indiscriminate bombing, they would go to the door and say... Go to the door, drag him out, beat him up, and maybe put him in a lake. Like, it would be... It's not a complicated process,

and it would be easy enough to do. And bikers, the ones I know, they have absolutely nothing against dealing with someone they consider an enemy, but they have wives and children, and they don't like the idea of dragging what they call civilians in. They like to keep it sort of person-to-person. You don't get that many bystander shot and outlaw biker things. Generally, they're close up.

You don't even get rifles used that much. Generally, it's a pistol close up. You don't even get rifles used that much. Generally it's a pistol close range. I can't think of anything similar at all from the Satan's Choice, Henchmen, Vagabonds, all the clubs that were big back then. I can't think of anything like that. Maybe someone passed through one of those clubs. A lot of people passed through them. Maybe someone who passed through them did do that sort of thing. Like there was a really fluid membership. This sort of idea that you're in a club and you're in it for life is just not true. All sorts of people leave clubs and you can leave a club and leave it alive. It's also something that would catch the eye of people

who later turned informant. You know, a new guy was in the area who was getting his explosives, the guy got blown up and then he left. Like, that's something that would be told to police. There were two people who went on to get a fair bit of money from police who had been in the Satan's Choice as informers, and I really, really doubt that they would have passed up on the chance to make money on this. This would have been very lucrative for them, and it would have been something that definitely would have attracted police attention. So could bikers have been ordered by somebody to have done this, do you think? Bikers are really hard to order. Like the reason they're bikers is they don't like to be ordered.

Tell me about organized crime and how organized crime may relate to the case or not. Because I mean they're involved in the water industry, they're involved in food and beverage. With organized crime you would get pointed to someone who could do the job. A lot of times, someone who's getting released from jail, someone who someone knows who's trying to work his way up, maybe someone who's trying to get into the drug trade a little more. And so what an organized crime person could do would be refer you to someone who would do it and take a commission for that.

But the organized crime group would not have ordered this, you don't think? I just don't know. I don't think it passes the smell test for bikers. It just doesn't seem the way they do it. Other groups, I mean, organized crime is a very, very broad thing, so possibly. There was a time when there were a lot of businesses being bombed, like in Hamilton in the 70s. Well, in Woodbridge, we're still getting that.

I mean, we had a cafe, Corretto, had the wall blown out. So it's not that they've stopped doing it. The bomb in the mail is, I don't know of anyone who did crimes that way. Like, that's an unusual way of doing it. There were people who blew up houses and businesses, but not through the mail. The mail is a different thing. And the mail adds a real sociopathic element that even these guys, a lot of them,

would turn up their noses at. Plus, I mean, you can hire someone to plant a bomb at a business or under a car or blow up someone's porch. You don't have to... It doesn't cost that much, and you'll get it done. So why do this extra? And especially since you're doing it

in a way that no one else will know that you did it. I mean, you're not going to benefit from the fear that you generate from it. It's only for the perpetrator's sole satisfaction. Yeah, it strikes me as a loner, and not a loner as in the bike club loners, but just as a loner personality thing, that it's something someone plots and does by themselves. If you're trying to do it from such a distance, you're dragging in another person if you hire someone to do it for you. And it's not that complicated. I mean, this isn't rocket science.

There is a cowardly element to it, too. Anyone who had access to the explosives with a minor knowledge of them and no conscience. If this is ever solved, my feeling is that it will be solved through water, through the bottled water business. There are all sorts of reputable people in it, but it's also a pretty easy business to be a scammer in. All you need is a tap and a hose and you've got a business.

Tips and information have started coming in to our SKS inbox. One message was from a man who says he was a former intelligence officer with CSIS, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, which is the Canadian equivalent of the CIA or MI6. Chris Moore told me of a memory SKS triggered in him about seeing a gruesome crime scene photo during a training program in the spring of 2010. It kind of stuck in my mind. It was such a horrific image. I could not get it out. And I

didn't know any names. I didn't know who it was. We weren't given that sort of information. But when I heard your podcast, I thought, wow, this sounds really familiar to what I saw. Chris is certain that the photo he saw was of Wayne Gravett. And then so the shot of Wayne on the couch, Wayne's remains on that pink couch. Yes. You remember? Yes. Oh, very, very vividly because it wasn't set up in any way. They just showed it. I couldn't figure out what we were looking at because it was like a kind of like an auditorium with a big screen. So it was like a large, large image and couldn't make out what it was at first and it was so awful and so it really stuck in my mind so how did you come to see the crime scene photos i

was an intelligence officer with csis and so we were in our training program that's pretty in depth it's about six months long and at the end of it a couple of opp officers who are working on some sort of inter-agency gang and guns unit had come in and kind of briefed us on explosive devices, weapons, that sort of thing and they kind of gave us a slideshow of pipe bombs, IEDs, things like that they had sort of taken from gangs they had been investigating, things they had come across and they're running down how they're made, what goes into them and they're showing some crime scene photos also at the same time and at the time you were not told wayne gravette's name or any circumstances no nothing at all other than well we we weren't

didn't we weren't given any name we were i didn't even know when it had happened this was april of 2010 that i was in the program okay so i had no idea how long ago it happened. I sort of thought it was recent. I thought it happened just before that. And all we were told was that it was something to do with a biker gang. We were led to believe, and I don't remember the exact wording, so I can't be 100% certain of it, but I was led to believe that they had arrested someone. They knew who it was.

And so the person leading the workshop was an OPP officer? Yes, I believe there were two of them, and they were OPP officers, but they were part of an interagency task force. They worked with other, I would imagine like RCMP, other agencies, on some kind of gangs and guns thing. You don't remember the names of the officers? I don't at all, sorry. Yeah, that was, it was like a one-day thing where they showed this stuff,

and then another day where they came and showed weapons like guns. And that was it. Did you get the feeling that they were using the photograph as an example of what could happen if somebody opens an IED? Or do you get the feeling it was an example of a gang violence hit? Yes, I definitely had the feeling it was an example of a gang violence thing. I definitely had that feeling of it. Did they mention anything about which particular gang or biker gang or mob group or whatever may have been involved? No names of any gangs. I don't remember any mention of any particular group. It's funny, I've been thinking about this for the last week since I listened to your podcast. I've been thinking about why did

they show us that photo? Because everything else had been photos of destroyed cars, maybe, and then actual devices. You know, here's what debt cord looks like. Here's what TNT looks like. You know, that kind of stuff. So I don't actually know why they showed it. Police have consistently said, almost from the beginning, that Wayne's murder had nothing to do with bikers. And yet, according to Chris, the OPP instructors were using the photo of Wayne after the flashlight exploded as an example of a biker war going on at the time. I'm not sure what to make of that information. Police trainers may have used the photo as a general example of a mail bomb, or they might have known more.

This would have been less than six months after my original TV documentary aired about the Gravette case in 2009. I'm going to continue to pursue this angle of the investigation. Thanks very much, Chris. You bet. Not a problem, thank you. Okay, bye-bye. But for now, there's one last person that we need to talk to.

It's been a long time since you might have felt in control of your mortgage. Let Dominion Lending Center's help. With access to hundreds of financial institutions, they shop for the best rate and the best product for you. It's your mortgage renewal. Take control of it. Find a mortgage expert in your area at dominionlending.ca. Oh, that coffee smells good.

Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? What are you doing? That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee. Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with mortgage payments on their minds. If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank. The earlier they

understand your situation, the more options and relief measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. Hello, my name is Ed Jr. I'm the son of Edward Sr., the owner of Surge Packing Equipment. I finally connect with Ed Gaelic Jr. for a more thorough interview. I'm asking the questions from Ontario while he's being filmed in B.C. He's a larger framed guy with blue-grey eyes in a yellow t-shirt and jeans, sitting on a worn leather couch next to a lit fireplace. Every time there's a partnership with my father, there seemed to be a bad breakup,

including myself. So we'll get into that in a little bit, if you don't mind. I just wanted to first tell me as honestly as you can about your personal relationship with him and what you knew of Wayne. Honestly, my personal relationship with Wayne was always tenuous. I mean, I was the son of the owner. Wayne was, I would suspect, I mean, and it's well known, Wayne was my dad's buddy.

From, I guess, Wayne started working for my dad when he was 18 at 7 Up. And from what I guess, from what I gather, Wayne was involved in some drugs and stuff like that. It was like weed and drinking. It was a pretty hard running crew, I would think, back in the days of 7 Up. And Wayne was the guy that supplied the dope, from what I understand.

I mean, don't get me wrong, he worked his ass off, and everybody worked hard back then. But that was the main association. But Wayne would also do what my dad told him to do. If he said, be an asshole, Wayne would be an asshole. If he said, steal that, he'd steal that. Wayne was my dad's Joe boy. I would almost suggest that Wayne was my dad's son, so to speak.

And I think that's what my dad looked at him as. More so than me, because I really did not grow up a lot with my father. Basically, whatever my dad wanted done, Wayne would do. They were the best of friends, the closest of friends, and they drank together, they partied together. It was just a really good, hard drinking crew that worked really hard.

And I gotta tell you, built some good bottling lines too, so I don't wanna make it all sound bad. the story that I heard there was a story about Wayne once was asked to throw you out of the plant or something did that happen you know what I don't quite remember I never really had a lot dealings with Wayne I mean Wayne was my boss and I was you know I was young 17 18 and yeah I mean I got fired a few times from surge because I was a mouthy person and I knew my job and it was my dad's business well I mean I got fired a few times from surge because I was a mouthy person and I knew my job And it was my dad's business. Well, I probably thought you know a little bit more than I should have back then I don't ever recall Wayne actually throwing me out of the plant

He's such a small individual and I was a big bruising hockey player back there. I wouldn't have gone I'll tell you straight up. The only person that would ever that I ever feared was my father. I've never feared Wayne I mean to me He was just he was my boss and I had to do what. I mean, to me, he was just, he was my boss and I had to do what he said because if I didn't do what he said, it'd be my paycheck. And my father would most definitely take his side, not mine, regardless. I don't recall ever being thrown out. I definitely was thrown into a situation with Wayne through my father, that's for sure. But I don't recall being thrown out. But I'm going to tell you something. With Wayne, it was never Wayne.

I mean, working for Ed Senior, you're never in charge, and everybody knew that. He's in charge, and that's just the way that is. So tell me about your dad, then. Tell me about your relationship with your dad and over the years and what it's like now. My situation with my father now is why I live out here. I basically don't want anything to do with him.

I had a bad business situation with him. He's just money. Basically, if he makes money off you, no matter who you are, that's all he believes in, that's all he wants. I mean, I see my father try to destroy my life when I'm a single dad with two kids. How Ruthie was over, I think it was like seven, eight grand. It just blew me away what he would do to, I mean, his own son and his grandchildren, just over $7,000, $8,000 on a business deal.

Ed Jr. claims that when their business relationship ended, things got ugly with his dad. I just couldn't believe it. I've never seen that side of him before. I've never seen him that angry. I just couldn't believe that guy. I mean, that was like someone I've never seen before. And it blew me away at his age, the kind of reaction that happened in that plant that day. Like, he basically told me he would, you know,

he would do the same, he'd kill me. And I asked him, said, go ahead, just take your best shot, this doesn't end here. I'd never seen him that angry. Just tell me a little bit about what your sort of theories of the murder of Wayne Gravett are, because first of all, the police must have come to talk to you. Yeah, they did, they came to my office. I was in Guelph at the time, bit about what your sort of theories of the murder of Wayne Gravett are because first of all the

police must have come to talk to you yeah they did they came to my office I was in Guelph at the time they'd come and ask me some questions and basically they wanted hair samples and that type and I I basically flat out told him I said if you're looking at me you guys are way off base because I had really didn't have anything to do with Serge Wayne I didn't even know what they were doing you know I knew it Wayne had moved on but I didn't even know what they were doing. You know, I knew that Wayne had moved on, but I didn't even know where. I had so little contact with that part of my life. I was surprised with the Wayne thing, but, you know, Wayne had a lot of history of drugs.

When I was younger, I remember then he had a guy that was a big Coke dealer. We used to go visit, mushrooms, all that kind of stuff, and that gentleman was busted just outside of Georgetown. So he was a dealer. Whether or not he had more connections than that, I'm not really sure. So when the police came to talk to you,

did they talk to you for a long time? Did they do a polygraph with you? Did they ask you if you killed Wayne? Like, what did they do with you? They just came in and asked me certain questions, where I was, what I was doing, that type of thing. They came into my office, and they asked me for hair samples.

I told them no. Polygraph never came up. The first time I heard about a polygraph was my dad bragging about how he took one. I heard that through a third party. What else was there? Honestly, Dave, it was such a nothing thing to me that it was more of a gossip,

more of a soap opera thing to us, thinking, wow, we couldn't believe that something like that happened. But honestly, Wayne did have a habit of pissing a lot of people off, and he would tell you, if you owe him money, he'd tell you to go screw yourself. So we're hoping, we're not hoping, but we're assuming that he pissed the wrong people off. And there was a lot of Italians that he dealt with at the time.

And he was into that water business, which is, at the time, I think, a little shady. How many times did they come and talk to you, and for how long, the police? They came and talked to me for one, I believe it was one time. And maybe twice. I mean, I maybe talked to the police regarding this maybe 10 minutes. That's it. I was, they just never came back. 10 minutes?

That's it. I, you know what, that's Dave, you're asking, I mean, obviously when something like that happens, if you had an interview like this, it'd be something that I would remember. And believe me, it was just, you know, I was so busy trying to build my company. Basically, they came in, I answered some questions. I bet you I never talked to them more than 10 minutes. And they never came back. I basically told them and said, listen, if you're looking at me, you guys are way off base and I prefer you not bother me anymore. And they never bothered me again. And when was the last time you had seen Wayne? Like he died December 12, 96. The last time

I would have seen Wayne would have been 93, I think. I think in 92, I think it's when my father took me out of college to come to replace him at Surge. He came up to Confederation College, told me his business, that Wayne was ruining his business, and asked me to come back and run it, which I did. And actually, he left me there with Wayne. Wayne and Diane, I think Diane departed. I think we worked together for six months or so. And that was pretty much the last I seen him because I didn't last too much longer after that myself. My father started playing the games on me

that he was playing on Wayne. He never fulfilled up to his promises, let's put it that way. I think after the second year, 94, I was done with my father as well. And I knew Wayne had had his own business at the time. Tell me about the other flashlight and how it came to pass that one was at that other shop. Again, Dave, my information on that other flashlight

came from Danny. I got a phone call, Danny wasn't in Ontario at the time, you have to understand, we had closed up that other business basically due to what my father had done to us, and he gave us no choice. And for some reason, Danny had called me up and said, you know what, he got called in by the OPP, and somebody left a flashlight, very similar sort of thing at our plant, which was right around the corner from my dad's plant. That, quite frankly, was really weird. It was really different. I would never suspect it to see something like that.

And I don't know who would even play a joke like that. But that's strange. I couldn't see my father doing something like that. Maybe drunk, yes. But he does, I don't know. I don't know who he hangs around with. I don't know his character that way. I went to speak to your dad.

I went with Justin and Danielle, actually. And Alfred was there. This was in the summer father about who could have done this to Wayne. Who do you think would have had the smarts to pull off killing Wayne Gravett? You know what the first word out of his mouth was? Me? Eddie Jr. No way. Well, there you go.

Well, then you know what? It's amazing that somebody would say like that to me because if you've heard of anything else that he's talked about me, that's kind of strange. So it's basically an Ed senior, Ed junior thing. Dave, I'm going to tell you something. I've never heard my father point a finger anymore in my life. I've never heard him say anything like that towards anybody. But for him to say that to me he kind of quickly qualified it because i asked him directly are you saying i said wait a minute are you saying that your son had and he said no no no no i i i mean he he would be smart enough to do it he'd be a smart guy well then buddy i'm gonna tell you something hearing something like that i am utterly amazed because the only difficulties that i had with wayne were through my father and Quite frankly at that. I mean, I don't have bad blood in my system

I mean, I have a pretty bit animosity towards my father as you can see But just based on what he's done to my family under my sons and and how he's interfered in me raising my children over over time, but Wow Wow, that's amazing. You blew me away. Well, that's interesting, Dave. See, it's funny that you've just blown me away, Dave,

because like I said, I never really had any problems with Wayne or Diane. I was basically the tool to get rid of Wayne and Diane. You just, you know what, to hear something like that come out of somebody's mouth that would know damn well that I wouldn't even have the smarts to do something like that. I've never been a violent or been involved in any of that type. I wouldn't even know how to deal with something like that. For someone to say, you just blew me away, Dave. You just floored me.

I know my father's pissed off at me because basically I stood up to him finally in my life and I don't think that went over well with him. I've always bent. My father, whatever he said, I would bend. Last year or the year before in that plant, I stood up and you know what? Had it been for a better judgment, my kids, I probably would have beat the living crap out of the guy for what he was doing to us because he just came in and pushed his way into the plant. You know, we rented from him and he was just ignorant, just an ignorant person. I just could not believe that this person would do this over money to his own son. And not even that, I mean, I have two young sons that I raised by myself.

I mean, so that was my living. My father took my living away from me in one day. So if, and I'll say this on camera in case it ever happens, and I hope not, if there's somebody I'd want to blow up, that'd be the guy. That'd be the individual. He had his inner circle. And you know, I'm his son, he would spend more time with the Waynes of the world and stuff than he would with his own family. But that's the way he is now. I don't know, I mean, I partied with Wayne.

Honestly, I think even Diane will tell you, I think I tried to contact Wayne and them to do business with him when I was with EDJ, which was my company then've never had I see I never I don't know how to say it I mean I've never had a financial linking to Wayne and with surge the only problems I ever had with surge was basically my father he promised you something money and he just never would give it to you but honest to God I could not see my father risking his whole life to kill somebody. He seems a lot smarter to me than that. So I got one question about the letter that came with the flashlight in Wayne's package there.

Did you know what the letter said? I know what the rumor had said. I can tell you that from what I understood. I heard, and what I got told was, maybe this be the last flashlight you'll ever need. That's what was told to me. Other than that, I don't know. I also heard that his son went to open it first or try to get it running and that he had taken it away from him because he couldn't get it to go on. That's, that's the only things that I've heard.

That's all. Right. The letter has been published. It's public domain now, so you can access it. Oh, I don't even, I, you know what? I couldn't even tell you what it said. What did it say? Well, it says something like that. It says, may you never have to buy another flashlight. Right. And it names Lisa and Joe in there. Who? Joe? Lisa is the secretary at Surge. Right. Yeah. And Joe, old Joe? Joe's teach would have been the delivery guy, right? Wow. It named them? Yeah, they're named in there. Wow. I have no idea what they're associated. I mean, it sort of, you know, if I was looking at my dad, I don't know why he would name him. Because I don't even think they were.

Well, Lisa was at Surge at the time. That's correct, yeah. But old Joe? Joe Giuseppe, I think. Yeah, I know who Joe is. I remember him. He used to live in a trailer at a game farm or something like that. They were like all tight.

You know, he's just his go boy. You know, go's go boy. It's, you know, go do this boy. I just wonder why the letter would have been written in the first place, you know? Why would the bomb be sent in the first place? Why not just run him over or shoot him or beat him up and kill him that way? Like why a bomb? What kind of person do you think sends a flashlight, this kind of creepy?

What kind of person sends a flashlight from what I understand came out of Acton? Is that correct? Wasn't it delivered from the Acton mail postal service or something? It came through Acton. Ah, okay. I heard it was mailed out of Acton, which made me thought about my father. But then I thought, you know what? That's just too close for comfort there. I think the family would be relieved to hear you say similarly to what your dad said, just to kind of... Well, I'm not going to say that. I mean, to me, I don't need to say something that is just so obvious. But what I will tell them is I'd never, ever wished their family or Wayne Harm or anybody dead in my life.

Even to the extent that my father is treating me in the way he's done me in my life, I don't even wish him dead. I'm incapable of wishing anybody dead. So yes, no, I did not have anything to do with the murder of Wayne Gravett. And you know what, quite frankly, I'm quite surprised that nobody's found out what's gone on yet. It blows me away that in this country

that we can't find out who did this. You're convinced that it came from within the industry then? Oh, most definitely. I believe that. I do believe that this death was a result of a bad deal within the industry. Of maybe somebody putting down a large down payment on a packaging job. It could have been their life savings. And they basically, it didn't come to fruition, which is why I said if you can get a look at their their invoicing and who they because in our business if you did a million dollar job you'd get five hundred thousand dollars up front to do it and there's a lot of mom and pops out there people that sunk all their money into this new product and if you took

that money and it didn't pan out that person's broke do you understand and you take somebody's savings that could cause a lot of people to do a lot of crazy things. Okay, so I'll probably be in touch with you again, and thanks very much for your time. I've heard from some people that Eddie, at least Eddie of the past, looks like one of the men from the police sketches. I have no way of proving who's in these sketches one way or the other without someone coming forward with personal knowledge. I've also heard about other acquaintances who look like one of the men seen at the Acton post office asking for Wayne's address. I have their names and I continue to seek them in person person, over the phone, and by writing them letters.

Eventually, I'm hopeful I can speak with each of these people. To see images of the Gravette case, including the intriguing police sketches of the men from Acton, the letter to Wayne, and other evidence, visit the SKS website at www.cbc.ca.sks. Do you want to know something? I mean, I just felt so alone out there trying to figure out what the hell happened and who and why somebody would want to do this to us. And, you know, it's a strange thing

unless you've ever been put in that position. I think the kids kind of just realized how much work and energy I've put into it over the last 12 years. And the hurt that I feel inside that, I wasn't able to come up with anything. And they felt that it was their turn to step up. And if we can't get anywhere this time,

I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know how much more any of us can take, really, to go through all this again and again and again. I figure someday, maybe, you know, when this could get all settled and we find out and that I might be able to rest enough and it won't be all about Wayne anymore. It might be about me now and the kids and what's good for me.

And with that, I head back to the farm with Diane and Danielle. Well, it still looks as beautiful as ever in here. Yeah, it does. Reminds me of horseback riding. Oh my, it does. It reminds me of horseback riding. Oh my, so beautiful. I figure pretty short time. We moved in here in June and... He didn't get much time here. No, he didn't.

And everything from there was just a big gigantic struggle. That's true, eh? We tried everything to try and keep on to this place and hold on to it. And, hey, we worked hours upon hours, the two of us, to try and... We tried for four years. It was hard. It just looks so different, you know? I don't understand any of this, but... I really want to go back to the springs, you know?

Let's walk back this way. You can hear it. You can hear the water. Hear it? It's the little things, you know? Like in the corner there, there's tiger lilies, and over there, there was huge, huge marigolds, like massive marigolds.

We used to have these gigantic parties and big outside gatherings, and we used to have a big corn roast. And this is what my dad built to have our corn roast. He took the bottom of this, and he made made this stand and this sat over the fire. And we used to take pillowcases full of corn and we'd slap them in with a rope on it. Back in the day when we used to live here, this was all just fields. It was all just grass. That's all it was.

I mean, there was so much open space here that you could just walk forever. I couldn't even imagine what we would be doing right now if we were still alive. We'd have everything go in the water. We weren't looking to be big huge bottling people, you know. It's okay. What a sad story, isn't it? Let's get out of here. This is depressing. Before we part, Danielle tells me she has something else to say. I have to wonder if somebody is sitting there knowing information that could help us through this turmoil,

I have to wonder if they're not feeling guilty, that they haven't come forward. Because at the end of the day, your conscience will eat away at you. And I think that's important, you know, to do some good out of the information that you know. This is our real life. It's too easy nowadays to pass it off like it's just a movie. I'm just afraid that people will do that

and forget why they're watching it in the first place. Watching it to catch a murderer, a real one, who really killed somebody in a really horrible way in front of his family. I don't want that to be lost in the mix.

It's not lost in the mix, but it's an impossible story to hear without it feeling like a movie, a thing we can turn off or eat popcorn to. Put yourselves in the shoes of this family, and if anything you've heard sounds familiar or if you think you know something about Wayne Gervatt's murder now's the time Send us an anonymous message at sks at cbc.ca or call your local police station I have received some tips that I continue to look into that I'm hopeful I can report on soon. You have been listening to Episode 5, Junior. Visit cbc.ca slash sks for photos of the Gravette family home and the surrounding property.

Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kampf, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Our theme song is Higher by Olenka Krakus. Baby, oh baby Where have you gone? I've been lonely and tired and angry too long I've been passing my time with my memories of you

But your image keeps fading, whatever the view Baby, oh baby, what have I done? Turn my eyes from your eyes just to stare at the sun I've been burning with shame since the day it set And I ain't seen it rising in remedy

yet In remedy, yeah Baby, oh baby Where shall we go? In my dreams there's a mountain And desert below Where you cling to my bosom And sing with the choir And wait for the sun To rise higher and higher Where you cling to my bosom and sing this little choir And we wait for the sun to rise higher than us

Someone Knows Something is a proud part of CBC Original Podcasts. If you're looking for more great podcasts and other styles and genres, check out Other People's Problems. Normally, therapy sessions are totally confidential. But Other People's Problems reveals what people really sound like when they talk about traumatic births, turbulent marriages, eating disorders, and tough childhoods. Subscribe in Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to SKS.

For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.