Someone Knows Something - S5 Episode 1: Ravens

Episode Date: October 16, 2018

On a cold October night in 1986, 15-year-old Kerrie Brown disappeared from a house party. Her friends and family recall that fateful night and the devastating effect it's had on their lives. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/someone-knows-something-season-5-kerrie-brown-transcripts-listen-1.4850662

We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga, capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music, and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today. This brand new series, created by Visit Mississauga, celebrates a city 50 years in the making, paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse, and dynamic third largest city. Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, This is a CBC Podcast. The following program contains mature subject matter.

Listener discretion is advised. Yeah, this has destroyed my dad. It destroyed our family. It just did. Someone could have just dropped a nuclear bomb on us. It wouldn't have been any worse. And your mother, how did it affect her? It devastated my mom.

My mom was blind at the time already. My mom had a disease called retinitis pigmentosa. I have the same thing, actually. Fortunately, I haven't gone blind from it, but my mom did at a fairly young age. So she wasn't in a good space when this happened, and this just drove her into a darkness she never came out of.

And then at the end, in the end, it was cancer that took her. My mom died 15 years after Carrie's murder. She died at the age of 57. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah, that was tough. She had a tough life, my mom.

Do you have any other siblings? I have a brother, an older brother, Ian. He lives in Selkirk, Manitoba. Yeah, Ian, my brother Ian, he's a survivor. He kind of lives day to day. It's spring 2017, and this is Trevor Brown and our first call from his home in Thompson, a mining town in northern Manitoba. Trevor's 47 and wants to know if I might be interested in looking at his sister's unsolved murder.

She's worth it, and she deserves justice, and we want answers. Carrie Ann Brown was 15 at the time. The Royal Canadian Mounted Police say hers is their largest cold case investigation in Manitoba. I've often wondered, you know, I get crazy notions sometimes. I think of the ravens. They're so intelligent. And there's some old ones around here.

You can tell by the size of them. And they know. And I often think the ravens have all the answers. We just don't know how they can tell us. And I'll guarantee you Ravens saw what happened to my sister, which is going to sound weird. And they would remember the faces of the people that did it to her. And they could pass that information on to everyone in their family that could pass it on, they say for generations.

If somebody, that's crazy, but I often think to myself, maybe the Ravens will show us one day. That's fascinating what you say about the ravens and crows. The corvids in general are, as you say, they have fantastic memories and they do communicate with each other. And they do have memory for human faces. They do, and there's one here that is old. We have one that shows up in our backyard.

There's a family that nests close here because i feed them bacon but they any one of them ever came across that individual in a public place they would they would recognize them as them being the ones that did this even though they never witnessed it themselves which is incredible when you think about it no it is incredible it being such an uncommon event it would stick out in their memory banks but now all you have to do is get them to talk. You know that, eh? Yeah, no. Just get them to talk now.

Say, let's sing Mr. Raven, tell us we did it. Forward to July 2017. It's a pretty compact little town so far. A few signs of it being a mining town. Big tower, big smokestack on the way in. I pass several ravens poised on the hydropoles along the highway just outside Thompson, about 800 kilometers north of Winnipeg, and

then enter the town that Nickel built. Turn left at the traffic light, then take the first left. These are all fairly similar structures, bungalows with vinyl siding, low buildings, small lawns in the front. There's not very many tall buildings in this city, and if there are, they're related to mining, mining nickel mostly, but also other precious metals. And that's what Kerry's father, Jim, used to do.

He used to work in the mines here. He's retired now. Thompson was built as a planned community by Inco, the mining company, starting in 1956. It's actually named after the company's former chairman, John Thompson. The town's seen more vibrant times with some of the best ore deposits in the world, but there's just been news of more layoffs at some of the still-working shafts, now operated by a South American corporation. And Thompson's been at the top of the list of Canada's most violent communities several years running.

The place is actually built on and around the mines, but you can't see that unless you get the right perspective. Mallard Crescent, Pickerel Crescent, Sturgeon Crescent, Wolf Street, Lynx Crescent. And all the streets are named after minerals, trees, or other animals. It's about 5.15. Really anxious to meet with Trevor and his dad. Just briefly, just to say hi. Want to get moving on this. And I know they do too. Over 30 years. Arriving on the left. There it is right there. It's a white row house, brown trim.

It's Carrie Ann's picture right on the door. Hello. Dave? Yeah. Oh my god Dave, I was just thinking thinking about you, man. What do you have with you, brother? Just me and the recording thing. This is my recording device. Yeah, eh? Yeah. Oh, I'm glad you made it safe. Yeah, I did. I'm sorry.

I stepped into a small white utilitarian townhouse, passing through a screen door with a colour photocopy taped to the front. On it, a plea asking anyone with information about Carrie's murder to contact Crimestoppers. A poster like this has been taped to this same screen door since the day Carrie disappeared over 30 years ago, October 16th, 1986. The photo of Carrie taken by a friend on a nearby street just weeks before her murder shows the profile of a light-haired teenager smiling back at me. Dave, please come in. Hey, Dad? Dave's here.

You bet. Trevor is tall, in jeans, with long, graying brown hair, and wearing a royal blue hockey hoodie for the Buffalo Sabres. He looks like a country western star a few records past his prime. He's soon joined by Jim, his father, who's wearing a clean shirt and smiling dourly with pale skin and a soft handshake. Trevor's gregarious and speaks, I feel, almost as fast as he thinks. And Jim's more of a loner. Hello, sir. Mr. Ritgen, how are you?

I'm good, how are you? I'm full of arthritis. You phoned the other day, I was on the bed there, and about four times I said, well, I better answer and see who it is. Yeah. And this is the house Carrie Ann lived in. Yeah. This is the only house she lived in.

This is pretty well all that's left of Carrie's stuff is her teddy bear. Coco. Coco was Carrie's. He's old. This guy's 40 years old. And this is about she had on that night when she was at the party and Trevor just got it from a girl. What about? A few months ago.

Yeah. A few months ago. We've moved into the living room where Trevor sits on an aging love seat with an open beer in front of him and an arm around a large worn brown stuffed bear propped in the corner. Around its waist and draped over its little shoulders, a 1980s style belt made out of metal loops. Carrie lent it to her. She wanted to wear it to a wedding or something the next day. Carrie took the belt off and gave it to her. At the party, she took it off part of her outfit and gave it to her friend. That's the belt. And Carrie just took it off and gave it to her. That's how Carrie was. I notice on the bare wall behind Trevor

an ornately framed photo of a much younger, posed Carrie lit by a dull, incandescent light. The photo is tinged red with age. A single candy cane hangs on a nail next to the picture like a question mark. Then Trevor redirects my attention, tilting sideways, holding his forehead with an intense concentration while looking in my general direction. I realize that he can't really see me. Hey dad, does he have a beard? You shaved your beard.

I do, I do have a beard. Oh, okay. Just a little bit. Yeah. So tell me about your beard. I do. I do have a beard. Oh, okay. A little bit. Yeah. So tell me about your vision. Oh, my RP. I was born with RP. I got it from my mom.

Retinitis pigmentosa. I have tunnel vision. I have tunnel vision, literal. Like, if you want to know what it's like, put two toilet paper rolls over your eyes and just kind of walk around. It's kind of like that's what tunnel vision is. Yeah, I was diagnosed at the age of five because they were looking for it. It's genetically passed along, and all they know is that it generally leads to blindness.

That's the general rule with RP. So when you look at me, what do you see? Outline. I just see your outline. Yeah, your head. I don't see your facial features or anything like that. Well, that's a blessing for me, that you can't see what I see. Well, I've seen your facial features, Dave. I know you well enough, brother. I've seen you in enough docs. Trevor can get around pretty well, guiding himself sometimes with arms held out and his fingers brushing walls or whatever he happens to be passing.

If I put something down or I'm not careful about my feet, though, Trevor can get tripped up. An onlooker might think he's completely blind. Somebody here knows something, and I don't know what it's going to take to draw them out, but I'm curious. And this is, we've never done anything as big as this. This is a national podcast. You have quite a following, Dave,ave right another thing i quickly learn about trevor is that he likes to ask lots of questions are you familiar with the terminology t1 dave t2 okay these are the mines oh yeah thompson's mines are all named t1 is the big one with the smokestack over here i saw that coming in yeah that's t1 t2 is an open pit mine in the middle well t3 is where is where Dad spent most of his years. It's out here behind the train station.

And in the middle of T1 and T3 is T2, open pit mines that they mined out several years ago. What did you used to do there, Jim? I started as a mine beginner. I found it unsafe down there for myself. I didn't like it. Jim's not used to having people around much anymore. He goes out once or twice a week for a drink, but other than that, he's home watching hockey or the Hamilton Tiger Cats or resting.

Eventually I wound up in the dry, which, you know, was only about 12 cents different an hour, and you're warm and no clothes to ruin or anything, a pair of running shoes. The dry, Dave, is the surface. Oh. Working on surface. Oh, okay. In, like, where everybody showers and cleans up after they come up from underground, that's the dry. Mainly nickel, but a bit of everything.

Yeah. They've got a few precious metals as well, and a bit of copper, a little bit of gold. Didn't need a lot of refining. In fact, they used the nickel from Thompson to make the Canada Cup. If you watch hockey, 87 Canada Cup, Gretzky to Lemieux, that cup, yeah, the nickel from that came from Thompson. Tell me about Kerry. I'll tell you something about Carrie. That if there ever was a number 10, and this is not because I'm her dad,

I would say in my whole life with her here, I never once had an argument with her even. But she had a little bit of a temper, but not something like firing stuff around. Anybody was picking on somebody because they weren't very good looking or a little bit stupid, she was right there sticking up for them. She was maybe five feet tall, maybe 80 pounds, and she stood up to this bully that was picking on her friend, and the girl backed away. The toughest chick in our school. I'll'll never forget it i was in grade seven she was in grade six i couldn't believe it because carrie was afraid of her she wasn't afraid of her and she was willing to stick up for her friend

in the face of fear and that was carrie that was her nature nature. She got a hold of my shirts once she was a teenager. My jackets. And she did just take them, put them on, roll the sleeves up and take the both sides and tie it together in a knot at the front when she goes out the door with my shirt on. You can picture it, right Dave, the 80s? Yep. Oh yeah. She was a tomboy, Dave, no question about it. She played baseball with us, football with us, street hockey with us. She was an athlete. She could run. Fuck, she was the fastestoy, Dave, no question about it. She played baseball with us, football with us, street hockey with us. She was an athlete. She could run. Fuck, she was the fastest girl I knew, Dave. And she was my little sister.

She was a year younger than me, and I was quick. Like, I could run. I was in track and all that in high school. And I was an endurance runner. I could run long distance. But she was a sprinter. She was faster than me, Dave. And I was quick. I wasn't slow. Carrie was small, but strong and wiry. And she had a lot of friends. On the night of October 16, 1986,

she went with some of them to a party at Doug Crocus' place. Doug went to the same high school as Carrie, R.D. Parker, and lived on Trout Avenue. It's around 8 o'clock at night, Winnipeg. I'm just heading to talk to Doug Crocus, who hosted the party that Kerry Brown was last seen at. So I'm hoping that Doug can shed some light on what happened at the party and the aftermath.

Looking for Carrie when Carrie was found. Hey, come on in. Doug's a mechanical engineer and has done a lot of traveling since he left Thompson. Alberta, Scotland, Australia, and now back in Manitoba again. He's 47, in a black t-shirt and jeans short white beard and balding there's a brightly lit fish tank bubbling on the other side of the room so why don't we just go with telling me what happened that day or what you can remember leading into was it a party or a gathering or what what was it well party's the word that people use but i i don't think that's really it because that group of people i mean definitely it was a party but it

wasn't like there was invitations or it was planned or we hung around quite a lot through that period of time and it was the exact same group of people all the time so was carrie part of the group or did she? Oh for sure yeah her and Rhonda were very close and and Nicole I think Carrie was staying at Nicole's house that night. Two of Carrie's best friends at the time were Rhonda Tennant and Nicole Zerodny. I'll be talking to both of them. And and so you say that it wasn't a invitation party that wouldn't have been? No we just kind of went we went to my place, into my basement, because it was a place where we hung out quite a lot.

I think my mom was upstairs in a room watching TV. There was beer there. I don't think there was a whole lot of beer, but there was. I mean, we were kind of, you know, of that kind of bridging age. Some of us were 18, some of us weren't. I wasn't. You know, Carrie, Rhonda, Nicole weren't. You know, some of us were older, some of us were younger.

It was, yeah. And we were just having laughs. What kind of stuff would you do at your gatherings? Same thing as anybody. There would be music playing and telling stories. I can't even really remember. What does anybody do at a party other than talk, play music? And there was nobody there that you didn't recognize or anything like that?

No. No, and that got asked a lot. There wasn't. There wasn't. A few people came and went over the evening, but nobody that was unknown. Nobody that was unknown to us. Nobody that didn't attend high school with us or wasn't in class with us.

Nobody that wasn't part of the community. Nobody whose parents we didn't know. That sort of thing. It was a small town. A small remote town. It's different than small rural southern Canada. Northern Canada, it's three and a half hours to the paw. It was a very tight-knit community.

Not a lot of people came and went as far as living there. It wasn't, I think it's more transient now than it was back then. It's tragedy on so many fronts. It's like, yeah, I wouldn't change anything about growing up there other than obviously that kind of ruined it for everybody. Do you have any recollection of what Carrie was doing or what her movements were that night? Yeah, well, I know I talked to her for quite a while and then um she was gonna leave and i remember having a bit of a not an argument but asking carrie to just

wait in the porch and not to go outside until nicole her and nicole were gonna walk home and um i talked to carrie at the bottom of the stairs for quite a while. I may have even gone to the top of the stairs, but I can't remember. And then I went back in to go find Nicole because Carrie asked me to. And then some time later, Carrie was gone. So then when the police came to you, did they come and question you all at once, everyone

together? No, one at a time. They questioned you one at a time. One at a time. And did they DNA test you as well? They did. Yeah, they did me. They did quite a few of us.

I don't know who exactly. It was quite terrible. And I can't help but think that, and I know it's not true, but I can't help but think you would know if you, like if, how could you do something like that. And how could you do something like that and live amongst people normally? So that gets me to know I don't think,

I don't believe, not for a second, that it was anybody with us that night. I hope I'm not wrong. Were you expecting a house, Steve, or a townhouse? No, no, I don't have expectations. You don't have expectations, yeah.

No, I just come and this is where it is. Yeah, this is our backyard. Back at the Browns' place in Thompson, Trevor gets up and moves toward the sliding glass door that defines most of the back wall of the living room. Beyond it, a communal backyard, green space for the whole townhouse block. Yeah, we're down in here in the northeast corner of the city,

and we don't have much in our backyard. Oh, that's nice to have. Nice poplars. I like the wild, eh? of the city, and we don't have much in our backyard. Oh, that's nice to have a backyard. I like the wild, eh? Like the trees, and we have lots of animals. Birds, lots of birds that come visit us that know us, and squirrels. We have squirrels that come inside the house. Really? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Eat peanuts out of the bowl. Oh, yeah, we have squirrels that are comfortable coming in here, and we're okay with it. I'm okay with squirrels coming in. So is my dad. I know you wanted to get some pictures and stuff everybody that came to the house wanted this wanted that i sent everything to trevor and winnipeg because they told me about

four times now that i was dead you know i've been in the hospital i keep telling him he's dying and so uh give everything away pretty much. And Trevor, he moved and moved in Winnipeg, left stuff behind. I lost all our photo albums. How did you lose them? In a move. I'll be honest, I had relapsed. I was in recovery and I had relapsed after three years of sobriety almost.

And I lost my job. I lost my apartment. And when I lost my apartment, I lost everything that I had. Yeah, I lost a lot of family. I lost the Alphodoms, I think, is what I miss most. I had rings. Like, my sister had a daughter's pride ring. I had my mom's engagement ring from my dad.

And I lost it. And I was, yeah, I was saddened by it, but it's gone, so what can you do? Did I bring a beer? No, you did not. Do you want to get it? Yeah, I'm going to grab it. Do you want to sit and chat for a bit? Yeah, if that's okay.

Yeah, for sure. Can I get you a beer? Trevor goes to the kitchen to grab a fresh beer and returns swiftly. I've struggled with immense depression, and after Carrie died, I lost all ambition in life, period. I was, I mean, before Carrie's death, I was an honor roll student. I was involved socially in everything, from high school musicals to track, soccer. I was just active.

I was socially active, very active, and had a lot of friends and spent a lot of time outside of the house. But after Kerry died, I just didn't care. Nothing mattered. Nothing mattered. I mean, nothing. I dropped out of school eventually. of the house but after Carrie died I just I didn't care no nothing mattered nothing mattered I mean nothing I I dropped out of school eventually and nothing makes me happy today nothing brings me pleasure well very few things and nothing consistently I've I've struggled to hold down a job. Like, I don't work today.

I take care of my dad today. And that's why I'm here in Thompson, to take care of my dad. But I've never held a job for more than three years after Carrie died. And I fall back into my old habits, my drug habits, my alcohol habits. And for me, it's the great obsession. My great obsession is who did this that's that's what rents the most space in my mind is who did this because I've told myself that once I know the answer to that question that I'll move on but until then I I've not moved on I turn to Jim, who's sitting in his favorite easy chair near a bookcase. I ask him to tell me everything he can remember about Carrie's last day.

I took Carrie uptown to see about a winter coat. And she's the kind of a girl that likes a little jacket that's not warm enough. And took her to different places up there and we couldn't find one that she liked. So went to the bake shop, picked up some bread. She said, Dad, could I get a donut? The donuts were all fresh there. I said, sure, go ahead. And so she got a couple of donuts.

We come home, had a big supper on the table roast beef and potatoes and vegetables and when it was over these two donuts were there and of course trevor ian my wife what are we going to do with two donuts so it was my fault i should have got a dozen you know and so there was a little conflict, and she kind of went upstairs a little bit. Go ahead, eat them then. You know, that sort of thing. And then it was okay. It blew over, and a little later on, Rhonda come over.

You've heard Rhonda's name, I think. Rhonda Tennant. They went upstairs. Carrie got to make her gear on, pantsuit and that, and they come down. She had her Pittsburgh Penguin jacket. I noticed the belt on her, that belt there, she had her jacket open. The one thing I didn't notice was if she had her purse with her.

If she was staying overnight somewhere, she would have a bag or something. A purse never showed up anywhere unless the police found it in her room and took it. They took a bunch of stuff out of the room, like a telephone and answering service and stuff that that had. But, uh. So you don't know if the police have her purse or if she had her purse? I have no idea. No. Okay. But, uh. What kind of purse was it? What did it look like? It would be just a little black purse, not a big, not a big bag or anything. Okay, so then she went upstairs, donuts, eat them yourself, then what? Yeah, well, like I say, Rhonda come along, she got into her pantsuit and that,

and they come down the stairs, don't wait up for me, Dad, no school tomorrow, which was a kind of a natural thing with her. If there was no school, she slept over at one of her friends places but there was nothing specific. Of course with kids they're all over the place, they're at this house, that house, you have no way of keeping track of them. My wife and I drove the car down to the garage and left it there and walked back home. Took a big walk around Juniper up by the hospital and back up home and eventually the boys were out and I settled down to do my hockey pool and so I did that went to

bed and went to work the next morning got a taxi taxi to work, caught a ride home. My wife phoned about dinner time, she said, you know, Carrie hasn't showed up at home and she's the kind of a girl that would change her clothes very clean, change her clothes pretty regular and not like her to sleep around for a day or two or anything like that. But I said, well, she'll be with one of her friends. So by the time I come and got my car picked up about 4.30 in the afternoon and come around home, Carrie's nowhere to be found. This is Friday.

Yeah. Friday, October 17, 1986, the day after the gathering at Crocus's. So we did what we could, phoned taxis to see if she had left that place in a taxi, and it got on into the evening. I started driving around. I can't drive very good at night. My eyes weren't that good even then, but the taxi said they took somebody over to a certain area,

and I went over there, and there was a gate locked, and I couldn't get it open. But anyway, she wasn't there, and I drove around a little more to another number similar but a little different street, and the door was open in there. So I knocked anyway but no answer so I walked in and it was completely empty no furniture no nothing in there I give it a good thorough look she certainly wasn't in

there so I come back home the police came here after that there was a bunch of visitors here consoling us and what have you that we're looking for we can't find her and but uh the police took me to the police station and a good long interview like asking different questions what colors did she like what did she eat what food did she eat and that sort of stuff. I spent a good time there. Did they ask you where you had been and things like that? Not particularly, no. So you didn't feel like you were being treated as a suspect?

No, not at all. My wife was steady crying and I couldn't console her or anything. It was just all muddled up, God. But I knew the next day as soon as the police phoned, we found a body. They said, we need you to come to the hospital over to identify the body. I took my wife with me, but I didn't take her down there. Like, she was blind anyway, she couldn't see nothing, but I went down. I was with you, Dad.

Jim slowly sinks into his chair and stares straight ahead. Some listeners may find this next part too difficult to hear. I went down there and Carrie's laying there. I knew it was before I left the house it was Carrie. I just knew. There she's laying there. I noticed a sharp cut under her one eye. It wasn't like a branch, it was more like a sharp knife, or razor or something, like

a real neat cut. I told the police about it, no, no, no, that's nothing, there's a bunch of sticks out in the bush there, they were using sticks with blood on them. I give her a kiss, they were just cold as cold could be naturally. I got after the police I said why the hell didn't you get out there and get looking when we told you and but I did I guess they did is they said you got to wait 48 hours before you can do too much because they always show up. She didn't show up when they did.

Different people had been out there and had seen her, said she was popped on the head so hard that her eyes popped. Wow. You told me stuff, Dad, that you witnessed. And David, you might want to know what he told me, what he witnessed back in the day. And that was that you swore that someone had hit her so hard over the top of the head that it forced blood out of her ears. Yeah, well, that's true enough. And it was matted all through her hair. Well, the body laying there, yes, she had blood, a lot of blood on her and in her hair and what have you.

But I mean, she was quite recognizable as my daughter. No, I didn't stick around there too long, to be honest. One policeman was standing out there, and I know I tied into him. The fractures that occurred on her skull were simultaneous. They were one after another. There was multiple fractures to her skull and her jaw and her neck and her chest. Her upper body was completely hammered. And, yeah, to me it was, yeah, it was a mess.

And they used sticks. The cops would have the sticks. But I think they used a tire iron too. I don't know that, but I think. Do you have the autopsy? I used to. It was in that photo album move that I lost all my pictures in. You should be able to get that from the police.

They were all in Winnipeg. Her body was sent to Winnipeg. Oh, so that's where the coroner's report came from. Yes, yes, yes. Winnipeg. All her forensics are in Winnipeg. The coroner's office has the copy. If we were willing to pay for it, I remember the final autopsy report I couldn't afford. I'll buy it for you.

Yeah? Yeah. music, and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today. This brand new series, created by Visit Mississauga, celebrates a city 50 years in the making, paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse, and dynamic third largest city. Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, to learn more. Available now on CBZ Listen. Are you sure you parked over here? Do you see it anywhere? I think it's back this way. Come on. Hey, you're going the wrong way.

Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Whether renting, considering buying a home, or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. I'll sit here. Is that okay? Yeah, that's fine. Start off by telling me who you are and what we're doing here.

My name's Rhonda. I probably lived in Sudbury when my dad moved us here after the murder. I was 16. So I've been in Sudbury ever since. Rhonda Tennant, one of Carrie's best friends, sits across from me at her home in Sudbury, Ontario, at a picnic table set inside a screened backyard gazebo. She's got shoulder-length auburn hair, wearing a v-neck blue and white short-sleeved blouse. So why did you move to

Sudbury? My dad moved us here after the murder because he was a single parent. And I think he got really scared after that. Carrie was one of my best friends, me, her, and Nicole, the three of us. What was it that brought you two together as friends? She was easygoing. Yeah, she was fun. We lived in the same neighborhood, just down the road from each other. What was Thompson like before Carrie was murdered, like as a place to grow up?

How would you describe Thompson? Well, everybody pretty much knew everybody. Like, there were no school buses. We went to Eastwood Elementary, which was probably, and Carrie lived on, me, Carrie and Nicole lived on the same street, but it was probably a good 20-minute walk. High school was probably a 45-minute walk. And high school was, you know, everybody knew everybody.

It had its ups and downs. Like, it was a place where, like, you would have never locked your doors or, yeah, you would have never thought. Well, maybe we were at the age, too. Like, we were only 15 right so at that age you're kind of free you don't think anything bad's ever going to happen i probably can't remember the day but the evening i remember we were walking there's maybe 10 or 12 of us walking to a party it wasn't't very late. You and Carrie, and was Nicole with you too? Yes. Okay.

Yes. Can you tell me anything about the party? I don't think I was there for very long. I think we got there about 10, 9.30, 10. So I had to be home for 11, so. At the party that night, do you recall anybody drinking anything? Oh yeah, there were people drinking.

Yes. Yeah, there was alcohol involved. Including you and Carrie and the rest? Yeah, yeah, there were people drinking. Yes. Yeah, there was alcohol involved. Including you and Carrie and the rest? Yeah. Yeah. How much would you say was being taken in? I don't know. Like, for myself, not much, because I had to be home early.

But for her, even for her, like, by the time I left, everybody was, you know, everybody was fine. So, yeah. When you left, she wasn't stumbling around or slurring speech or out of control in any way? No. And did you talk to Carrie at the party? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Her and Nicole.

And after that, I said goodbye to everybody and I left. Carrie seemed to be kind of mood or state of mind? Yeah, no, she was in a good mood. She was, yeah, she was fine. But then the next morning, her mom called my place. Do you know what time? Oh, it was early morning. Because with me and Nicole and Carrie, we used to sleep at each other's places.

So her mom called me first thing in the morning. So first thing in the morning is? Well, it was probably like 9.30, 10. You know, like asking if Carrie slept in my place. I said, no, I had to leave the party early. Maybe she slept at Nicole's. So I guess her mom had called Nicole, but then Nicole called me and said, well, what do you mean she didn't sleep at your place? I said, well, I left before you guys. I'm just out in the country, outside Winnipeg, Manitoba. And I'm on my way to interview Nicole, Nicole Zarodny, who was with Carrie on the night that she disappeared from the party on Trout Avenue in Thompson back in 1986 October. And I don't think Nicole has spoken about her experience very much.

I know that Nicole had to think for a long time before agreeing to do this interview. Oh boy, there's a Rottweiler. He's bigger than Diesel. Hey buddy. Oh boy, there's a Rottweiler. He's bigger than Diesel. Hey, buddy. Okay. Stop. Hello.

Hi. You're Nicole? I am, yeah. I'm David. What's your dog's name? Harley. Harley? Harley!

He won't bite me if I go talk to him? He probably wouldn't. He probably wouldn't. Okay. He's never bitten anybody. Hello, Harley. Okay. Okay, okay, okay, okay.

Maybe I'll just stand over here. Yeah. Yeah. We'll go in the house. Nicole's got the no bullshit but caring demeanor of someone you feel like you've known forever. She's in a green t-shirt that says, I ain't no yuppie girl, Jack, with blue mirrored sunglasses propped on her brown hair.

So where's comfortable for you to... I don't care. Okay. Wherever you want, wherever you're comfortable. with blue mirrored sunglasses propped on her brown hair. So where's comfortable for you to... I don't care. Okay. Wherever you want, wherever you're comfortable. You can sit at the table, couch, I don't care. Okay. She leads me into her living room where I sit on a leather couch underneath a giant moose's head mounted on the wall.

Above Nicole, a blown up photo of a blue half-ton truck from the 1970s on a backwoods gravel road. Nicole's in the driver's seat, leaning out the window, pointing at something in the distance and laughing. In the back, leaning forward and smiling, Carrie Brown. Couch is good, and your kids are fine? Everything's taken care of? You're okay? Yeah, everybody's squared away. Okay, good. are fine everything's yeah taken care of you're okay squared away okay good i don't like them around when i'm talking about this for obvious reasons have you ever talked to them about it at all before i had like seven years of psychotherapy i think i went into it when i was probably 18

into therapy which was probably when I actually admitted to died because I pretended up until then. So seven years of solid therapy, like I can talk about it, but it just changes you a lot. Like PTSD, survivor guilt, that doesn't go away, no matter how much therapy you have. And how old were you when this happened? I was 14. It was October, I was 14, and I turned 15 in February. Okay. So let's start by telling me what your relationship was to Carrie Ann. And did you call her Carrie Ann? I called her Carrie. Okay. Yeah we called her Carrie

but I mean her name is Carrie Ann Brown. One of my kids is Carly Ann. We were friends. We were best friends. Kind of grew up together. She went on all our family trips with us. My dad is a bush pilot and we took her up north and we had a fish packing plant way off in the middle of the bush and we would take her wherever we went she was a part of our family and went to school together elementary and beginnings of high school and uh then I had to do her eulogy and that's an amazing thing to do when you're a teenager most definitely i i would say that's probably the hardest moment of my life but the phone call was actually probably harder when we uh wow this is this flood of emotions take your time

it's uh it's good to talk but it's sometimes hard and i don't like to be emotional and it's been 30 years but I can see it in my mind's eye like I see you I replay that night so much you uh I can see us skipping down the road arm in arm

going to this guy's house. And, you know, we were going to hang out. There was a large group of people that we actually hung around with. Like, I don't know, maybe 50 people. There was a lot. And so we were at this guy's house, in the basement and we were all everybody was happy hotel california i hear over and over and over in my head and when i hear that song the eagles i see the basement and i was sitting in this chair like one of those old lazy boy rocking chairs and she would always

sit on my lap like I was like the guard dog and that that was how it was and she was sitting on my lap and um we were happy and then her ex-boyfriend walked in and then she wasn't happy anymore and we were leaving and you say her ex-boyfriend showed up what was his name do you know charles charles gregoire and he went by chuck he showed up like he had been dating this other girl before carrie then had dated carrie and then they had just broken up with within a few days or less than a week anyways of this party. And he came walking down the stairs holding that girl's hand, which upset Carrie right away. And then she wanted to leave. And did Carrie exchange words with this guy or the girl?

No, no. There was no arguing or bad blood or anything like that. It was an awkward situation. He had gone back to his ex-girlfriend and we were teenagers. So it was pretty upsetting and we were just going to leave. The ex-boyfriend is an obvious area of interest and later I managed to track down Charles Gregoire. But I'm satisfied that he had nothing to do with what came next. We went out, and I forgot my purse, and I said, no, I'll get it tomorrow.

And we kind of went back and forth, and she was like, no, get it now. And we walked back into the house and I went down to get my purse and okay so then you saw Carrie come back into the house we walked back into the house together and you know like there was a landing at the top of the stairs and she was standing at the landing and I went downstairs when I came back up the stairs my ex-boyfriend was on the stairs and arguing with me and I just remember looking up and seeing her standing there and and how long between the time you went downstairs she was on the landing and the time you went back up would you say because you say you met an ex-boyfriend of yours on the way yeah like it was

minutes you know just a minute or two and i got my purse and then when i got to the stairs i probably argued with him for 10 minutes or something your ex-boyfriend yeah what was the gist of what he was talking about well he wanted to date again i think and. And I didn't. When you were arguing with the ex-boyfriend, did you see Carrie at the top of the stairs? Oh. She was standing there. So she witnessed you arguing with her? She saw me arguing with him, yeah.

And then what happened next? The next thing I know, she wasn't standing up there any longer. She must have just got sick of it and stepped outside I went out when I finally got fed up with him and I went out and PTSD is funny hey because as I talk about it I can feel and smell everything that I did back then and it was just starting to snow it was October but it was Thompson and it was just lightly snowing and I can just feel a little snowflakes on my face and uh I was calling her and and I walked around the back of the house and I could

see her footprints and in this light snow. How did you know it was Carrie's footprints? Well, they were coming from the house, and it had just started snowing. Did you notice any other footprints next to hers from the house? There were no other footprints. There were only hers, and they stopped at the end of the driveway. There were fresh tire tracks, which at the time I thought, you know, I didn't pay a lot of attention to. I just thought they had covered up her footprints. So then I couldn't tell which way she would have gone. I followed the footprints to the end of the driveway and there

were no more footprints. So can you remember anything about the tire tracks? No. I wish I had paid attention to them. I wish I had looked to see if, you know, a drag mark or something. But I really didn't. It didn't set in, I would probably say like for 45 minutes before I started to panic. And she was staying at my house that night. So I walked towards my house and she wasn't anywhere to be seen. And so then I went back, like they're just little areas in Thompson, little bays kind of. And I just walked around there searching for a long time. I went back to the house twice to see if she'd gone back to the house that we were at. And I was crying and I was upset. When you last saw her at the stairs there, when you looked up, what time

was that? It had to have been close to midnight my time i'm not sure of my time i just knew i was past curfew i was supposed to be home at midnight and i got home about an hour past my curfew and i had looked for her at least an hour and a half walking around and going back and you know arguing with people and and then I when I finally decided I needed to go home I went home and of course I had had a couple of drinks and my mom that was may have even been the first time, but it was very, very new. I didn't come home smelling like alcohol or anything beforehand. And so she was upset with me. And as soon as I hit the warm air, I just got sick.

And I was crying and I was saying, we have to go look for her. In those days, you know, Carrie was there, and we didn't get permission, like, for her to sleep over. She just slept over, and that was how it was. So my mom didn't really know that she actually was missing. Then when I woke up in the morning, I said, she's gone. I called her house and asked if she was there. And of course she wasn't. And then I had to tell her parents that I lost her. And then police were called and we made up these posters, just like a little paper with her picture on it, and that she was missing and stuff.

Right away the next day? Right away. On the Friday? Yeah, yeah, because that was Thursday night, and so then Friday morning, right away we did that. My mom was driving us around, and we were talking to the cab company and all kinds of things, knocking on people's doors where cabs had dropped off young girls in the night. And, of course, nowhere to be found.

And there was a moment when I just felt like we are never going to find her, and it was like I was losing my mind and and I was hollering at my friends like we're not gonna find her and they just looked at me like I was insane and I like why did you say that and it was Saturday that there was a body found and that spread through town just ridiculously. You just know, you just know. But I went home and all of my, a lot of my friends ended up at our house i just remember it was almost like your life just left you like couldn't compute i couldn't respond uh for hours i just laid there and then you have to get up and go see her family and tell them how sorry you are.

It's hard to get over stuff like that. Tell me what it was like at the time in Thompson. It was a good place. Literally, like, you're teenage girls. You walked all over town, wherever you wanted to go. You skip all the way to school. You never thought something like that would happen. I suppose nobody ever thinks something like that would happen.

You never heard about anything like that would happen but you never heard about anything like that when when carrie's rape and murder happens like it was a shock wave people were terrified people people were turning on other people and there was lots of accusations there were rumors there were rumors, there were all kinds of things. Lots of people got lost. It's a hard thing, yeah. I know it's a hard thing to explain to a person, but when you're the last person, yet i i always over the years people would always say and all the art news articles the last person to see her alive the last person and her friend and all this and and i would even refer to myself as the last person to see her alive but i really wasn't i was the last person that loved her to see her

when somebody goes missing and and you were their last person and then you have to go to their family and say you couldn't find them and you have a hard time putting that one to bed. And I know, like, it wasn't my fault. I didn't do it. I was a kid. You didn't know any of that was going to happen, but you relive those moments. And for the people who did love her I was the last person and when I talk about forgiveness and stuff I guess that's something I have to forgive myself for

my sister lives in Thompson and when I go I always go stop and see Jim and Trevor. And really, Trevor's like my brother. Trevor changed a lot, too. We all got a little lost. When I become focused on Carrie's case days can pass and I'm I'm there it's I'm stuck and you you just you eat sleep and breathe that you can't get beyond it and probably the only thing that saved me in my life was my children and they will come to get me in the darkness you know if that means they just lay there beside me and and talk to me and and they can pull me out of it but trevor

trevor doesn't have that he doesn't have anyone to pull him out and he is immersed in that world and it absolutely breaks my heart it's been a long road for a lot of people you know the other night i walked outside and i was just wearing shorts and a t-shirt like this, and it was a little cooler. And just as I got outside, the cold air hit me, and just this, it happened so fast. Some little switch goes off in your brain, and my eyes just watered, and I thought, because I feel like she was cold.

Like she must have been really cold laying there. And I can hear her calling me, and I can hear all these things that nobody would ever want to live in that head. But, sorry. It's okay, you got me going too. Hopefully I haven't dragged you. I'm alright. You haven't dragged yourself into the ditch too far nah I'm pretty tough

everybody says they're tough I know I got four really good life preservers go chase them out on the seat we got some little pigs last night I gotta see them before I go they're hiding in the trees

we could go look and see if they're there, but they've only been here for a day or two, so they've been hiding a lot. I've got to look at the pigs. If I can look at the pigs before I go, that'll really help me too. Nicole has created a little therapy ranch on part of their large property. She's a social worker in a school system here, and she says she's at her best with children and with other animals.

I want a smaller little pig pen here, because this is better for the sheep. She's brought in sheep and pigs and built a kind of sanctuary for them, and for her. I wish Trevor and Jim had something similar. I see a pig. I see a pig. Hi pigs. Hi piglets. Oh guys. No, this way. They're so incredibly fast. I want a smaller little thing. One thing that bothers me is the timeframe between Carrie and Nikki. They're both going together somewhere, leaving that party. Nicole went back in the house. Apparently what I understood was to get her purse and for her to disappear,

get out the door and completely disappear. It's the time frame that bothers me. When she came out, Carrie was completely disappeared. I mean, I drove over around there. I'm not good with streets or anything, but I went round and round there. And from that house, you could see quite a bit both ways the way the street run. And I can't see how she could disappear unless somebody just grabbed her into a vehicle and took off. That's just my opinion. But like I say, I can't see her disappear and that quick. That's bothered me quite a bit. When somebody says, I know how you feel, they don't know how you feel

until it happens to you. My psychiatrist, psychologist, whoever the hell she was at the hospital, she said to me, I know just how you feel. My granddad died, 82 years old and asleep. I mean, compare that with a little girl getting her head beat in, raped and scared to death. That's what bothers me the most, is that she was scared. She had to be scared because she's the only one there and there's not one person to help her. And I blame myself, I never trained her to do anything out on the street. Carrie was always with somebody and for her at one time in her life to be alone and she got hurt. My wife was sick all the time long before that

happened and I was giving most of my attention to her as should have been given it to Carrie. And the one time when she needed me, I wasn't there. Carrie was found on the other side of the Burntwood River, just off Mystery Lake Road, on the outskirts of Thompson. How did she get there? I know Trevor wants to take me to the spot. He goes there once a year, each October. And what happened that night after she left Doug's house? The raw ghosts of the fall of 1986 haunt every moment of every interview and it's draining for everyone. But for now, enough questions. I say goodbye to Jim and Trevor for the night and head for my hotel on the other side of town. I need to meet with the RCMP to see if they'll share anything new about their investigation.

Why did Carrie's case become, as they say, the biggest in Manitoba history? In the hotel parking lot, I get out of my truck and, carrying my gear and luggage just before entering the building, a single raven's feather falls at my feet. There's a breezeway roof overhead, so I'm not sure where the feathers come from, but I hope it helps. You have been listening to Episode 1, Ravens. Visit cbc.ca slash sks to learn more about the Carrie Brown case. Want a place to discuss episodes with others and discover exclusive content? Join our new Facebook group and follow us on Twitter at SKSCBC.

Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak, Steph Camp, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Original music by David Fetterman. Our theme song is Thompson Girl by the Tragically Hip. We'll see you next time. and a movie whether it's time to end this it's each together Thompson Girl

Thompson Girl Thompson Girl Thompson Girl Singer Tom Singer