Someone Knows Something - S5 Episode 10 Part 1: Sumner

Episode Date: November 19, 2018

Patrick Sumner was arrested and charged with Kerrie's murder, but discharged after a preliminary hearing. He has never spoken to the media to give his side of the story. Until now. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/someone-knows-something-season-5-kerrie-brown-transcripts-listen-1.4850662

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Listener discretion is advised. You are listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. In Season 5, David Ridgen travels north to Thompson, Manitoba to investigate the 1986 murder of Carrie Brown. This is Episode 10, Sumner. I was at an apartment in Highland after Kerry died. And I'll be damned if Patrick Sumner doesn't walk in. I didn't know it at the time because of my eyesight, and it was dark in the apartment. And it wasn't until Mike,

Mike the proprietor of the apartment tells me isn't that Pat and when I hear his voice and I hear that name I immediately put two and two together I'm sitting in the same damn room as the guy that's been charged with my sister's murder. And I say to my buddy, I gotta go. And he says, what's wrong? I said, I gotta go. And I walked out of the apartment into the hallway, and he said, what the hell's wrong? I said, don't you know who that is? We know that Patrick Sumner was discharged and did not proceed to trial after his February 1987

preliminary hearing for the first-degree murder of Carrie Brown. DNA testing does not appear to have linked Sumner to the scene or the murder. And I've discovered other possible suspects and avenues that may well have been overlooked. But it's still impossible for Trevor, and perhaps many who have followed the case over the years, to not suspect Patrick Sumner, much less be in a room with him. Sumner, I threatened to kill him once from a car. I was with my friends, we were all in the parking lot at Chicken Chef, and he walked out with a girl that I was in high school with, and I started yelling, do you know that you're walking with a murderer? Of course, this is all based on

what I believed to be true, and I said to him, if I get my fucking hands on you, I'm going to kill you, you fucker. And my friends would not let me out of the backseat of that car. I was angry. That was the closest I came to getting my hands on him, I think. I used to have dreams about him. Fighting him. Wake up sweating hard. Yeah, I was sitting on anger. I internalized it. I still sit on it. And I told you that I'm not a,

I'm a pacifist, but I have a special place inside there for these people. And it's not nice what I want to do to them. Well, maybe you'll get a chance to ask all the questions that you have in your head. I'd like to speak to Patrick Sumner myself, hear his story of the night Kerry disappeared in the aftermath, probe further. Does he know something?

Was he there? You know, my dad asked me, do you actually think Summer's going to talk to him? And I said, I hope so. My dad says, I don't. I don't think he's going to. My dad still believes he knows something. And the cops will tell you he knows something.

But they can't connect him to that crime scene. And that's what we know. Just sitting here on Patrick Sumner's house, waiting for an opportunity to go and try to talk to him. He's really something of an enigma in this case. Trevor helped me find this address, and since then I've been back at all times of day to try to find the right opportunity for a non-threatening approach while Sumner's alone. I think I'll wait until Patrick's mother leaves.

The premise is it might make it easier for him to talk if he doesn't have somebody he knows around. Might be a long wait. But the situation soon changes. Just approaching Patrick Sumner's house. I just saw him out front. Let's see if I can have a chat with him. I've just watched Sumner's mother pull out of the driveway. Then a person I'm certain is Sumner himself, wearing a grey tank top, shorts and sandals,

appears in the front yard. Now would be the best chance. Shit, he's gone inside. I didn't have time to grab my full recording setup, so I'm approaching Sumner's place with my phone and a voice recorder going. Sumner just went back inside his home. It's a semi-detached house located down the road from one of the last remaining active

mine shafts in Thompson. I pass what looks like a brand new blue Ford Mustang in the driveway and head for the door. Oh hi, How are you? Sorry. Oh, sorry. What's your dog's name? Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Come here, come here. And just like that, because neither of us wanted Booker the dog to escape, I'm inside Patrick Sumner's house with the door closed.

We're at the bottom of a flight of split-level stairs, and Booker is bustling and friendly at our feet. So, Patrick, I'm David, and I work for CBC, and I wanted to see if you would help me out on the Brown case. I want you to talk to me about how you... I got fucked over? Well, not right now, but I don't have a problem with that. Here's my card.

Sumner seems agitated and not quite ready to deal with me, so he turns away and walks down the stairs. It's called PTSD. PTSD? Still there every day, right? Yeah. It doesn't go away. I follow him and we move into a room with a couple of couches, a bicycle leaning against one, blue dog blanket on the other, and a large TV. There's a bedroom off to the right, with a giant wolf's head image on the bedspread. Sumner heads left to a kitchenette and lights a cigarette. He's not very tall, about 5'9", with blue eyes and a coarse, light brown mustache. He puts on a pair of glasses and starts shuffling through some papers I see,

strewn across a small breakfast table. What you looking for? Spread out on the table are various articles, copies and originals, about the Brown case. Sumner had no idea I was coming, and I think these have been here for a while. Some are marked up with doodles and writing in the margins and highlighter. I've sort of marked it. It was sort of in here where I said, and they did a thing. Oh, I just had to sit in there because I've been making some notes. That's you writing that. Did you write that?

I just wrote this other. What did you write? Sumner arguing back at the claims of the past 30 years in solitude. These are some other ones. Oh, here's a copy. Oh, you've got a paper right here with the story on it. Can I take a picture of that? Glasses. One of the headlines I can see is from a photocopy of a Thompson newspaper dated March 1987 that reads,

Sumner freed after preliminary hearing. The words, not her hair, are printed in blue ink with an exclamation mark. So this is a paper that you've marked up here. Oh yeah, something about a hair. A hair? They're saying a hair on a seat, which was not true. The hair the experts said they found was under the factory carpet. A hair that had some likeness to Kerry's hair, according to Marilyn Simmons,

who said that information came out during the preliminary hearing. Because that's what was said in court. It was found under the factory carpet. Under the factory carpet of his car, implying that it would have been there from the date of manufacture. Detective John Toast told me that a Crown witness testified that there were a number of hairs that were removed from the vehicle that were consistent with Carrie Ann Brown, with her hair. But Toast also says he didn't actually hear this testimony because he was a witness himself, with Carrie-Anne Brown with her hair. But Toast also says he didn't actually hear this testimony because he was a witness himself,

and he acknowledged that hair analysis isn't always reliable. Like, that's what I mean. These are lies that our newspaper printed. Back to the articles on Sumner's kitchen table. So what's this doing on your table? Are you just looking at this all the time? No, I just have it sitting there because I've been making some notes or whatever. This is from March 2nd, 87. In another part of the same article, a section about a witness testifying is X'd out in

yellow and has the words outright lie printed underneath. A detail about stains the same blood type as Carrie's is altered so that it now reads Dad's t-shirt instead of Sumner's t-shirt. Sumner's shirt, which I wrote Dad's there, but it says Sumner's t-shirt. During the hearing it was determined, not my shirt, not her blood. Yet they still wrote it in the paper as though it was my shirt and her blood. According to Sumner, a t-shirt was seized by the RCMP during a search of his home. It was discovered in his parents' laundry hamper, and Patrick's mother told officers that it belonged to her husband.

The shirt had blood on it, but Sumner says it was his dad's blood, caused by pimples on his back. My dad was probably a lot bigger than me at that time, so I would wear like a small or medium, he was probably wearing an extra large. It was his undershirt, he'd get pimples on his back. The article that Sumner has been marking up has a slightly different version of this story, and a possibly erroneously reported one, saying the shirt was Patrick's,

that small stains matched Carrie's blood type, and that larger stains matched Sumner's father. The same blood type as hers, but no medication or alcohol in the blood on the shirt, which they would know from orthopsies, was in her blood. So they knew when they went to court that that wasn't my shirt and not her blood, but they still presented it as though it was to the judge. So they misled the court. According to Sumner, and in the absence of a hearing transcript, the blood was revealed to not be Carrie's and in truth mustn't have, because if it was, someone would be in jail, or the case would have at least proceeded to trial. This is 87. Yeah. March of 87, after the

prelim. Yeah. Do you have other papers that you've gone through and written on, or notes that you've made? Not that these at the library. Oh, let's see those. It's just small little stuff. Have you ever had anybody here really interview you about all that? No. You're kidding. No. Nobody's ever interviewed you about that?

No. I think they tried early on a little bit, but it was like, I wanted them to fucking figure it out, so I would keep my mouth shut. As in to not be charged with interfering in an investigation. Nobody, save for police at the time, has interviewed Patrick Sumner. Well, I'm really interested in talking to you about it, because I think it will...

That would be good. I would talk to you, but I can't right now. When's a good time to sit down and chat with him? Yeah, you should. Sumner is trying to bail, or at least reschedule. I would enjoy a proper interview with a better recording setup, but I don't want to waste this opportunity, and I try to keep him interested in talking.

I've got to go. Oh, sorry. That's okay. Maybe later tonight, if you're interested, I'd like to do a real good interview with you, and I think you would benefit from unloading whatever's on your mind about the case. I don't know about tonight either.

I'm supposed to be going out here. Oh, it's a Friday night, isn't it? Right. Well, even an hour of your time. It's fucking bullshit. That's what it is to me. If you talk to me in a longer interview then the story will be known. But of course I have all kinds of thoughts because I just wish they would figure out who the fuck did it. In reality I just wish they would figure it out. Who the hell did it?

I mean what was the main reason that they kept focusing on you? What was the main... You'd have to really ask them. I have been asking the police about their focus on Patrick Sumner since the beginning. And I've heard from Sean Simmons that he's still 9 out of 10 sure that Sumner was who he saw that night. And as far as the RCMP are concerned, Patrick Sumner still hasn't been completely ruled out. Robert Urbanovsky. And I'm reluctant to say anything about Pat Sumner. I think it's clear when you look at the judge at the time at the preliminary inquiry said there simply wasn't enough evidence to proceed to trial.

It's not a finding of guilty or not guilty, just not enough evidence. And you have to go back to square one and go, what are we missing? You just got to figure out who's got that name. And I think you know who does. I might. My impression here is that Urbanovsky is referring to Sumner as that person. John Toast also equivocates on his feelings about Patrick Sumner. There's a difference between, of course, a discharge at hearing and an acquittal.

And Patrick Sumner was not acquitted. A court never determined that he hasn't committed the offence. In other words, he was not found not guilty. We never got to that phase. court never determined that he hasn't committed the offense. In other words, he was not found not guilty. We never got to that phase. They just said that we didn't have enough evidence to proceed to trial at that point. We certainly didn't establish a conviction. But you know, the legal system, it's all we've got in this country. Dennis healed.

Do you still have your doubts about him? Do you think that Patrick Sumner might know something? Well, I think there's still something there. And Constable Jana Amaro. Like I said before, I can't really narrow down our suspect pool. I would say that it's still quite vast at this point in time. So I can't say at this time whether anybody really has been eliminated. So Patrick is in the pool?

I would say anybody is pretty much in the pool that was involved, or possibly, sorry, brought up as being part of the investigation. Back at Patrick Sumner's place, I try to get into Sumner's alibis, always one of the most important parts of any investigation. You had alibis for that night? Yeah, and we're told to go, well, I was with people earlier, yes, a woman and then a couple guys, and yeah, and then my parents. So at the time, at the time Carrie Ann would have been murdered, you were with your parents? According, from what I understand. From what you remember? From their questions.

Oh. No, but you must... From the police's questions from that time slot. Oh, I see. Okay. But earlier in the evening, I was elsewhere, and I could show it. I see. I wish I could press further here, but I sense that time is limited, and I don't want to leave without asking the obvious question.

So this is your opportunity to say, like, unequivocally, when I ask the question, did you have anything to do... No, absolutely not. ...with killing Carrie Ann Brown? That's right. Absolutely not. Would you ever contemplate such a thing? No! What for? It doesn't make sense. And with that, my visit with Sumner comes to an end,

with Patrick insisting that it isn't a good time for him, but agreeing theoretically to an interview at a later date. Take care, and have a good day. It'll be a good story, I don't know. We can get together and you can chat and we'll have another mic. Anyway, thanks very much. Take care. I found Sumner to be open, but perhaps overly focused on details of the case rather than a bigger picture.

The hairs, the father's shirt, the bloodstains, proving he didn't do it by catching mistakes that he says police or prosecutors made. I try to imagine how it must have been for Sumner under the investigative glare of suspicion over 30 years ago. I still can't believe nobody has interviewed him about it. Yeah, Sumner, that's one thing I wanted to chat about with you. So, I've gone to see Patrick and talked to him quite a bit. I've come back to touch base with Jim and Trevor about my first meeting. But I still feel that I need to ask a few more questions to get a few more direct results. I've thought many times, like, his DNA did not match,

so maybe he did see something, maybe he was there at some point in time. That's what I thought. Or maybe there's some weird parallel part to the story where he plays an initial role, innocent role, and that's why I want to go back. So then the question is, what's the best approach with this guy? What do you guys think?

Well, I think if you think there's something he hasn't said that he may say, then yeah, you go back and see him. So it's like, I just want to get another stab at him. And I'm not sure if anything I can do is better than just knocking on the door. You know? Hello? Sir, come here. How you been doing?

Good. Still going. Yeah. Months later, I have an opportunity to see Sumner again and I'm again inside his home following him down to his apartment he heads for the kitchenette as before the main goal is to help Sumner feel comfortable enough to tell me his version of events in as much detail as possible. So what are you up to here? Sloppy Joe.

Sloppy Joe? Sort of. Breakfast? Brunch. He finishes stirring it all up on the stove, and I wait for him to finish eating and drinking his V8, a tomato-based vegetable juice, which he's just poured from a bottle into a glass. I still drink it with every meal. V8.

The reason I was arrested. Funny, but not funny. The reason that you say you were arrested is because there was V8. V8 on the floor where my lunch from that day was. There was V8 on the floor, right, of that day was. There was V8 on the floor of your car? A little tin can, lunch size. Yeah. That's the reason you used to arrest me.

It wasn't blood. According to Sumner, John Toast used the vegetable juice stain as a pretext to make an arrest, saying that he believed it to be blood, despite the empty V8 can sitting next to it. A thorough search of Sumner's car was conducted, but as far as I can tell from my interviews, no actual blood was found. And if he did wash his car all day, as Roley and others have stated, this stain must have come afterward. But I'll get to the car washing later.

Yeah, I see people now getting compensated for jury duty because of post-traumatic stress. Yeah. Those were horrifying pictures. Try being the guy they're accusing of those horrifying pictures. You know, one thing. That caused post-traumatic stress. But who cares, right?

Nobody cares about something you didn't do. It's in the sum. Nobody cares about something you didn't do. It's in the sum, and it's true as could be. The way he gives it down, you're not considered a victim. Sumner's cat, Rascal, walks over and jumps up beside me on the couch, nuzzling the mic. Go ahead and give me a sense of who you are. A lost soul. I'm the guy that was wrongfully accused in the death of Kerry Brown in 1986.

I'm not sure what else I can tell you. And that's the fact of the matter. What was it that brought police to you, in your mind? What was their big piece of evidence? As far as I know, false statement, testified in court. I can't remember his name. But one of the young fellows in the truck, the guy driving. Yeah, it was because of him. Clean and simple.

Sumner is referring here to Sean Simmons, who, along with Larry Leapheart, testified about the vehicles they saw emerging from the stable roads the night Kerry was killed. Simmons says he's 90% sure he saw Sumner behind the wheel of a car that looked like the one Sumner owned. I have no reason to disbelieve or disavow Simmons' recollections. I've not been able to verify what Lepart might have seen that night. And while I'm not aware that either Simmons or Lepart made any kind of false statement, I do know that Larry Lepart was I don't know what else. That's the only reason that I can figure the police bothered me. I don't know what else. The driver of the truck told me he said it was a 9 out of 10 in his mind that he saw you in the car driving by.

Still says it's 9 out of 10. Yeah, well, if you believe something in your mind, you're going to believe it, I guess. Again, I wish a transcript of the preliminary hearing existed. It would have been invaluable to compare what was said 30 years ago to what's being remembered now. Still, there would be a lot of things I couldn't help with. Patrick says he didn't testify at the hearing. You didn't testify at the hearing? No, I didn't need to.

It is normal for defendants not to testify on their own behalf at preliminary hearings and sometimes during trials. So did you ever have to provide, this is one thing I was unclear about, did you ever have to provide through your lawyer your whereabouts on that night no no I gave statement before that long before I was even under arrest I told them where I was who I was with whatever so far Sumner's recollections seem

formed in the bitterness of seeing himself as a victim and maybe he is a victim and innocent. But the bottom line is, I need details and facts that can serve as proof. Where was he the night Carrie was murdered? What did it say in the statement? Oh God, where I was and who I was with. Can you remember the basics of what it was? I was with the girlfriend, Claire. I know she says that we might have had the time a little bit off. We might have been at the store a little earlier than we thought. But, yeah, she was stopping for a couch, and we went here and there, and Bronze Furniture and Woolworths and the Bay. Yeah.

And I dropped her off, dropped by a friend's house, and the two guys were actually outside in his car, Lindsey and Curtis. What time was that? They went for a ride for coffee. Yeah, that's got to be around 8, 8.30. So you dropped Claire off around 8? Somewhere there.

Because I think we were at the Burntwood at 8.30 for the show. You were at the Burntwood with Lindsey and Curtis? Yeah. Curtis Didluck, I later found out, passed away in July 2016, so he's no longer much help as an alibi. Trevor, Jim, and I made a long series of calls to try to find Sumner's other friend, Lindsay Lang, but so far, no luck.

And then how long did you stay there? I had one beer. I think they had two. Curtis might have had two. Yeah, well, they were buying, so I wasn't. Yeah, I had the money. I was going to school. Right. And then I went home. And then you say that you were never anywhere outside of the town or? Well, I was at the dump. Okay, but you didn't go to Mystery Lake Road that way? Nope. You didn't go past the cemetery road or stable road? Nope, not at all. So then when you got home, what time was that? Hmm.

I'm sure it was before 10. By 10 for sure. But I'm pretty sure it was before that. But it's kind of hard to remember because I had no reason to. This is that Thursday night, the 16th. That's what they were asking me about, yeah. When Kerry disappeared. I guess.

And was murdered. Recall that according to police, and possibly based on the timing of the vehicle Simmons reports seeing, Kerry was killed sometime between midnight and 1 a.m. So you're saying you were home before 10 or around 10? Yeah, about 10 at the latest. And what happened when you got home? What do you mean, normal day? Like, was there something?

Got home, had a shower, made lunch for school the next day, had a bedtime snack, went to bed, 0 to 11. Was there someone here? Mom was home, yeah, and then Dad showed up. Oh, the game was still on in extra innings, I guess, yeah. And Dad came home by 11 to catch the news, which wasn't on. Patrick mentioned seeing a baseball game on the night of Thursday, October 16th. He recalled all the channels showing the playoff game, which was going into extra innings.

He had said something to this effect when I saw him before, just prior to me leaving, so out of interest, I asked one of my producers, Amal Delich, to look into this for me. Hey Dave. Hey Amal. I'm up in Thompson. I just need confirmation from you. The 1986 World Series took place between the New York Mets and the Boston Red Sox. I asked him to check if there was a game on the night Carey was murdered.

On the 16th? 16th. No, they didn't play. Sox-Mets World Series game one started October 18th. The series started on October 18th? Yeah. Okay, so what baseball was on on the 16th? Game 6, Mets-Astros went to 16 innings.

Oh, yeah, yeah. On October 15th. Oh, on the 15th. Yeah, man. And was there a game on television on the 16th? Hold on. No. There's no games on the 16th. Hold on. No. There's no

games on the 16th. The 16th was an off day. Travel day. Travel day. Okay. There's no baseball. We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga, capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music, and incredible individuals who have from Mississauga, capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music, and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today.

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visit Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. According to my producer, there was no baseball game on TV the night Kerry was killed. So this was a baseball game? Yep. Now, I looked, the baseball game was on the Wednesday night in extra innings. Aye. But there was no baseball game on the Thursday night.

Well, there was something on. See, never again. How do you remember something you have no reason to remember? No reason to remember? I'm not sure what to do with this. Patrick says he's not a baseball fan. He just remembers a game going into extra innings on TV. Perhaps he's just confusing it with Wednesday night's game.

But that's my best recollection at the time. What were you doing on the Friday? Oh during the day till four o'clock I was at school. I went home, grabbed a shower, bike to eat, probably went out by about six or so, picked up Claire, picked up Kathy, went to Trapper's for a while, took a spin around to by the head frame, went there for a drink, got a stamp, and laughed. So we wouldn't have to stand in line later. Right. No car washing on Friday?

No. No, no time. And I believe the weather was not conducive. Rolia told me he'd seen Sumner washing his car for an inordinately long period of time on Friday, October 17th. Sumner doesn't deny that he washed his car, but insists it was on the Saturday. Because it was a nice day, and winter was setting in. I just figured it might be my last chance to actually wash it outside. I didn't have a garage to wash it in.

I don't like washing it in the winter. Everything just freezes up. So I washed it because it was a nice day. Saturday. Prior to that, I'm not sure about Friday, but I know prior to that, most of that week, it was freezing rain, a little bit of snow minus temperatures so there was no way you were using a garden hose outside

it was frozen it was a nice day that's it Saturday I was off school in the driveway traffic going back and forth because I was trying to hide something

then you were washing out the interior and the exterior yeah i washed the outside and i wiped down the windows and there's two sides to the window so i washed the inside of the windows yeah i vacuumed the floor and whatever so it was a nice day so yeah gave the car a cleaning took my time whatever that came up in the prelim about the car washing I don't know maybe I think it did yeah I thought it was relevant because it looks suspicious I think right they were trying to make it look that way yeah I guess that's what their their effort was towards you felt suspicious then it's suspicious for anyone who washed a car that day. Well, I'm going to say, whether it was at home in your driveway or whether it was at a car wash.

If I was trying to hide something, I wouldn't be in high traffic washing my car. It's a public facility dump. And you bought your car from Roley? I think it was a guy that worked for him. He did tell me that it was... No, I mean, it was trashed. You sold it to Roley after? I sold it after, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, okay. He told me that it was... It was trashed. And since that time, Patrick, have you had any run-ins with the law or any kind of charges of violence against you or any kinds of... Oh, yes, I've had false charges of this and that, yeah. You have?

Well, it's harassment, yeah. Man, I was pulled over one time, two cops. They didn't even ask me for my license or registration or nothing. My girlfriend, who I was living with in the passenger seat, they were all concerned. Are you okay, man? Are you sure? Like, are you here of your own free will, kind of?

Like, yeah, oh, yeah, just harassment, general harassment. I've pulled over lots of times, dragged for an embressalizer. Just FYI, I've never had an impaired charge. But any of the charges that were leveled at you in the past, have they been regarding violence? Or assault? I guess once, that was the same girl I was living with, whatever, yeah, it was all, whatever.

Well, what was the charge? I don't have a record. Let's put it that way. Okay. I don't have a criminal record. When was that charge? Oh, that was, I don't know. Would have been out. Mid-90s maybe. Mid-90s? Maybe, yeah. Was it assault based? Yeah, I guess so. I guess so. It's a simple assault. I don't know what they call it. Okay. Whatever. Based on a complaint by your partner? I guess so. A record check for Patrick Sumner does show an assault charge dated July 6, 1992, which resulted in an absolute discharge. Shortly thereafter, in February 1993, Patrick was placed under a one-year peace bond.

A peace bond is similar to a restraining order and is often used by those who are afraid that someone will harm them or damage their property. Sumner appears to have violated this peace bond in July of 1993. He was charged with uttering a threat to cause death or bodily harm, a charge that was stayed, and charged with mischief for which he had to pay a fine. He was then placed under an 18-month conditional discharge. It does sound like a lot, but most of the charges were dropped. You're here talking to me, and from what I understood from talking to you, sir, the police

still are leading you to believe I have something to do with this. To this day, 32 years later, even though their own investigation, they basically refuse to acknowledge their own investigation. Concerning me, anyway. What it is, is when police, when I ask police if they still have a suspicion about Patrick Sumner, the answer is always given as a, he's not been excluded kind of thing. Really? So DNA doesn't exclude them when they don't want it to? But DNA does include somebody for sure, 100%. But it doesn't exclude.

See, isn't that a double standard? You tell me. The DNA testing. Did you ever voluntarily give police your DNA? Well, I guess so. Knowing it was for a DNA test. You pull hair out and it's got a skin pull up on it. They have DNA. Well, they didn't say what it was for, but that was actually my idea after about three hours or so. What do you want from me? You must have something to go on,

some evidence. What do you want? You don't want to believe me and I can't make you. What do you want? So it was my idea. And they said, oh, give us this. Yeah, really? Yeah. I've been telling you for hours. I have nothing to do with this. If this will help you eliminate me as a suspect, what do you want? So they took what they wanted.

They asked. I said, here you go. Not under arrest. Not charged. Didn't have to give them anything. I certainly wouldn't have had to after I was charged. Not on that day. My lawyer would have said, nope. Right?

But you never gave blood to them? No. Okay. At the time, in 1986, DNA testing was in its infancy, so any gathering then would have been prescient thinking on the part of police. Sumner says that when he was locked up, for the first few weeks without being able to brush his teeth, an officer gave him some gum to freshen his breath,

then asked him to spit it out, so he thinks this could also be a source of DNA collection from him. I asked him, like, at that time, I said, like, what do you want? I said, I don't know anything about the science of it, but, I mean, exactly, blood, saliva, what? What do you want? And if they came to you today... So they asked for what they wanted. You would give it to them today if they asked?

They have it already. It wasn't until the 1990s when DNA became a centerpiece of criminal investigation that RCMP began collecting samples in earnest from people regarding the Kerry Brown investigation. Yeah. Sumner moves on to talking about John Toast, one of the original investigators. He simply didn't do his job, plain and simple. In my interview with John Toast, I asked him about the interrogation techniques he used with Patrick Sumner.

What kinds of strategies would you use when you're questioning people, say, like Patrick? Methodology there would be the same as anybody else. When we're doing an investigative interview, your goal, your only goal, your ultimate goal is to obtain any evidence or information that's going to further your investigation. And basically, that's the only answer I can give you. People are personalities. Personalities may require different approaches.

Different personalities require different approaches. His own words. You might as well confess because your life's over anyway. That's before he ever seen me before in his life, never talked to me yet, even. And he had decided at that point in time I was it. There was nothing more I could do. It's unknown if Toast did say this to Sumner, but it's not uncommon for police to use a variety of techniques to try to get a confession. I did tell him at one point, you know, just because you think it or you say it doesn't make it so. I just told him, do your job, you'll find out you're wrong. That was pretty much toward the end

of it. And I finally said, yeah, I'm going to use the phone. Did you have a lawyer present during any of that? No, no. I had nothing to hide. Told them it repeatedly. Like I said, it was my idea. What do you want from me? Whatever you want. I don't know how much more I could have cooperated. Did you meet Dennis? I couldn'tated. Did you meet Dennis Heald? Oh, he was there the whole time making notes. Same.

Two peas in a pod. Same shit. They don't care, right? They dug their own hole in the ground, I guess. I mean, I don't know how else to put it, right? They dug themselves into it. I steer the conversation back to Sean Simmons and the allegation made by him and his mother, Marilyn,

that their vehicle was being followed. So one of the witnesses, the driver in the red truck, and his mother actually said that some of their family members were following them around after this all happened. Really? Behind their red truck. Oh. Yeah, I didn't know the truck, so I couldn't tell you.

So that wasn't you? Maybe it was the cops. They were following me around, tossed and healed, following were following me around, and Heald's family car. Funny-looking thing, a Phoenix or something, it was called, funny-looking car. And your brothers at the time and your dad, you don't know anything about them following the... I have no idea. The red truck.

If I wasn't with them, I wasn't with them, so they had their own vehicles. I don't know if my older brother even had a vehicle then, to tell you the truth. Neither did your brother. I don't think he did. Patrick had two older brothers, Shane and Kelly, who both died recently, in 2013 and 2014. Their father, Robert, died in 2016. Would your brothers have driven your car that night?

No. No, they lived in town. And did they have access to it? Have they ever driven it? Nope. No, they lived in town. And did they have access to it? Have they ever driven it? No. No, actually. Okay. My sister did once. She was up here from out of town with her first son. Did your brothers look like you? I don't know. Not really. They were both bald already by then, half bald. Right. And mustached.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they lost their hair young. But did they have mustaches? I don't recall, to tell you the truth. Just trying to figure out if someone else had access to your car or something. Would have been a family member, probably, but... No, no.

Did you have anything to do with Carrie's disappearance? Absolutely nothing. Did you have anything to do with Carrie's disappearance? Absolutely nothing. Did you have anything to do with Carrie's murder? Absolutely nothing. And do you know anything about the murder? Do you know anything about... Other than me being falsely accused? No.

Do you know anything about who was there? No involvement whatsoever. No. I don't know any of her, her friends, any of them. I was not at no party on Trout. That was not a group of people I knew. You weren't driving in that area? At all. Nope. Not even. Nope. Nobody else had access to your car? I'm pretty sure they didn't.

It had an alarm. Oh, even back then? Okay. I put an alarm in it from Radio Shack. I saw some photos from the crime scene that the RCMP actually shared with me. One of the pictures shows a footprint, so a shoe print. Recall that through our analysis of the shoe print found at the crime scene we felt it looked similar to the pattern on the sole of a 1983 to 1986 Adidas brand named the Concord or Centennial the size is estimated to be at least a US men's 8 or 9 but could be longer because the heel of the print cannot be fully seen what's your shoe size this will help Oh God from 10 to, depending on the brand name, I guess. 10 to 11, so pretty big feet for a shorter guy.

10 and a half. Well, then would have been 10, maybe. I've gained a bit since then. What, in length? Your feet have gained? Well, your feet do. You get heavier, your feet will tend to over time. But I kind of like my shoes loose though for the most part maybe wore a size nine and a half to ten I would say maybe then

maybe ten and a half at tops depending on who made them I guess what was the kind of shoe that you like to wear what was the brand that you like Oh God I don't know they were just sneakers I wore all the time. I don't, oh God, don't remember. That's what I wore all the time. How tall are you? You're like five, eight? Maybe nine.

Maybe nine? Yeah. All you're doing is helping with the investigation by talking right now. That's all I tried to do right from the start. It's called cooperation. There's a I tried to do right from the start. It's called cooperation. There's a lot of effort was put into trying to take you through the system,

and it's important to know what the production is. Well, as the judge stated, you had no reason even to arrest him. I ask again about Patrick's alibis, Curtis, Lindsay, and Claire. None of those people's statements were submitted or put into the prelim? Oh, Curtis and Lindsay went down there when they found I was arrested and they were told to go away.

And Claire, she wasn't involved. No, they didn't call her. So, according to Patrick, Claire Dubé was never called as a witness. So, I called her myself. Hello? Oh, hi. Can I speak to Henderson Dubé, a real estate agent in Thompson. I spoke to Patrick Sumner, and he had mentioned that you were with him on October 16th, 1986, and on October 17th. Yes. So can you tell me about that?

Okay, well, at that time, Pat and I were like best friends. He was going to school for mechanics down the road from where I worked. So just about every day, we went for lunch and then went for supper. On the day that Carrie disappeared, Claire asked Patrick Sumner to come with her to Wolko, a local discount department store. Wolko is a subsidiary of Woolworths and has gone by both names, so this may be why Sumner told me that he and Claire went to Woolworths that day. And I put a couch and chair on layaway that night, actually. It was the first time I bought furniture and Pat was with me to pick it out. Thursdays were the one time the stores were open late till nine o'clock. So it was between seven and nine, probably by the time we got out there, it was just before closing. And then what happened after that? Well, we went to the bar for

a few drinks and then I had Pat drop me off at home. Normally I would have stayed out later, but I had gone home a bit early that night. I think I had stuff to do for work in the morning. Just back up a bit. So the Thursday night when you went out after you went to the Wolko to get the furniture, where did you go and what time did you arrive and what time did you leave on the Thursday night? Oh, that's a good question. Probably would have arrived there between 9 and 10. And it would have been the head frame at that point in time.

And I don't know when, it probably was around midnight, I'm guessing, between 11 and 12.30 probably that I had left. With Patrick? Yes. Okay, and he dropped you off at home, you said? Yeah. Okay.

Might have been slightly earlier than that. I mean, that was a long time ago. It was all in my police statement, though. And do you recall any of the other explanations for Pat's whereabouts sort of after he dropped you off? Do you remember what he told you he did after he dropped you off? Oh, yeah, he went back to the bar and had a few more drinks and then he went home. Okay, and that was the Thursday night? Yeah. So there's some major discrepancy here. Claire says that Sumner dropped her off between 11 and 12.30, perhaps earlier. But Sumner says he

dropped her off around 8 or 8.30 and that he was definitely home by 11. Both agree that he didn't go directly home afterwards, heading back to the bar instead. So depending on the timing, Sumner could still be unaccounted for around the time that Carrie went missing between 11.30 and midnight,

at least by his and Dubé's alibis. Okay, so then Patrick took you home. Where did you live at the time? Paint Road, 11.59, Paint Road. Okay. In the old trailer court. Paint Road in the old trailer court is in the more southerly area of Thompson, just

under three kilometers or a six-minute drive from where Carrie was at Trout Avenue. If Sumner went to the Burntwood Bar after dropping Claire off, that would take him back into the downtown, where he would still have been about two kilometers from Trout Avenue. Okay, okay. You don't remember driving with Patrick out around the area of the stables that night? Oh, definitely not. I guarantee you we weren't out there. And then the next day we were together for lunch. He had wrote an exam the following morning. That would have been Friday the 17th you are talking about? Yeah, yeah. And he had an exam that morning. And then we went for lunch after that, and then we went out for drinks that night.

Drinks again, eh? Yeah, we were partiers. There's no doubt there. We used to like to go out. Where did you go? That was our social club. So, according to Claire, it was a run-up to a weekend like any other. A few drinks on Thursday, another night at the bar on Friday. And she implies that Sumner was in school

during the time Rowley says he saw him washing his car on the Friday. But then on the Saturday, word began to spread through Thompson that a local girl had been murdered. At that point in time, when I heard what had happened, I was just shocked. She was only two years younger than I was. It's hard to believe that'll happen in our community.

I really had no thoughts on it besides just feeling bad for the family and friends and wondering what had happened to her until they found her. And then once the cops had picked up Pat, that's when I found out to what degree that they thought I was involved. Because Pat, I talked to him, did something every day together, and I couldn't find him. So I talked to his mom, and his mom told me,

no, Claire, like the cops came and picked him up like a day ago. And I was like, what? So then it was a hunt to see how we could get into jail to go see him, find out what the hell was going on. And yeah, so I know he was already in custody when they came to talk to me. Claire tells me that the RCMP visited her at her family home, parking their squad car in her driveway and conducting the interview there.

Their theory at that point in time in which they told me was that I was very similar to Carrie Brown, hair coloring, size, age. And yeah, their theory per constable Post was that Pat had an ongoing crush on me and what she was never able to approach, I guess. I don't know what the right word is for it. And his frustrations over me was why he went after Carrie Brown, supposedly,

which I knew was total bullshit. Pat and I have been friends since I was, yeah, 15 years old. And, yeah, no, it was like they were grasping at straws I was just totally shocked at what their theory was and explain them there's no way like I mean Pat couldn't hurt a dog he couldn't kick a dog for god's sakes he's one of the most gentle people that I know anti-conflict and stable you know like you'd have to be whacked to be able to do what somebody did to that poor girl. It's just not fair. Did you ever wonder if Pat, not that he was involved, but might have seen something and just had to be quiet because he was afraid? Or did you ever get

the feeling Pat might have been there but didn't participate but saw something? No, not at all. No, he couldn't have stood by and, no. The cops at one, the last interview I had with them was when my daughter was six months old. She's now 23. They called me in. I was just finishing my MAT lead. And again, they told me how wrong my statement was and I had conflicted with Pat and how if anything that did more damage to him than good. And I refused to change it. And he

said, well, here, do you want to see Pat's statement? And I said, yeah, sure. So they had a file, they spun around and when they opened the file, it was four by six losses on both sides of the crime scene at that point in time i lost my temper and i told them i didn't and pardon my language told them i didn't give a fuck if it was my father that had done it if i had known who'd done it i would fucking say so because they should be punished plain and simple and that was my last interview with them and i've never heard from them again. That was after they'd taken, like, they'd already had DNA from you long before that. And they had done the DNA for a hundred and some people or whatever. I know when that happened because they took DNA from my late husband and a number of our friends. I have no idea what happened that night.

All I know is from the pictures I was shown, there's no freaking way in the world it was one person did that to her. There was more than one involved. I mean, it was brutal. Absolutely. And whoever did it should pay, should pay severely. Nobody on God's green earth deserves that to be done to them. And the cold-hearted bastards that could do that should be dead. If I knew somebody did that to another human being,

I don't care who they are. They should pay. Are you still friends with Pat? Oh, yeah. Yeah, to this day. How did the whole thing affect your friend, Pat? Oh, it screwed his life. It hands down.

The next morning, he wrote that exam at 8 a.m. He went to start a class at 8. He wrote that exam, got like 90-some percent in that exam. He was halfway, if not more, done that year course. And to be picked up, he never finished the course. He was thrown in jail. He was ostracized from 90% of the community. Like he got dirty looks and rude comments and people not knowing any better and believing what the RCMP were saying. So a lot of people probably to this day somewhat think he's guilty. I mean, it's stunted his life from future being able to gain meaningful employment in Thompson,

where you want to look after and stay with his family. But in the meantime, there's somebody out there that should pay dearly for a young girl's life. Claire Dubé speaks forcefully of her friend Patrick Sumner's innocence. She was with him for much of the evening Carrie disappeared, but possibly not for the crucial time period when Carrie would have been actually murdered.

A different approach to Sumner may help draw more information out. A first ever meeting with Trevor Brown. Pat? How's it going, man? Yeah. Yeah.