Someone Knows Something - S5 Episode 10 Part 2: Sumner

Episode Date: November 19, 2018

Trevor Brown speaks for the first time with the man who was accused of murdering his sister. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/someone-knows-something-season-5-kerrie-brown-transcripts-listen-1.4850662

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Listener discretion is advised. Most people I've spoken to have strong opinions about Patrick Sumner. We all knew he was guilty. I think he knows something. I think he got off lucky. But I don't really know him. But for the cops to have somebody there had to have been some kind of

evidence or he knew something and John and some members from the GIS team would come in and look out these windows with binoculars and keep watching Patrick Sumner who they figured was the person

and let him know that they were watching him, and it just got to be tunnel vision. They had overlooked things that they shouldn't have, and this is where they were concentrating their resources, was on this one person. Trevor, too, has had his opinions about Sumner, but now feels it's the right time to set the record straight. We could probably go and try Sumner again as soon as we're done here.

I'm just going to hit some lights here, Dave, and roll a spliff. Dave, do you want a bottle of water or anything to drink? No, I'm good, thanks. Okay. Have a seat, please. Trevor's obviously a bit nervous about the meeting. Roll a joint. So you want to go see if Mr. Sumner's home, eh? I think we probably should.

Are you going to smoke that joint first? First? Yeah. Is that cool? Yep. It's up to you. It's your... Yeah, I'm gonna go out back....your gig. Let's see if we can get Sumner here. Yeah, let's hope. I sometimes find myself thinking about us sitting here

sneaking out to Sumner's house that day and then I thought about you sitting out here for six hours that morning by yourself. That's how it goes. On the short ride across town, Trevor's anxieties express themselves in idle chatter. Whenever I see a camper like that, I think of Yogi Bear. Why? Because of the ones where he comes crashing in through the fucking roof of the fucking camper. Oh, yeah.

And he's trying to get those picnic baskets, and the fucking woman starts hammering on his head with a fast iron pan. Ding, ding, ding, ding. Hilarious. And then I used to laugh. All right, here we are. Let's go see if Patrick's home. Alright? Oh yeah, thanks.

Check, check the door. Hello. Hey, is Patrick here? I have talked to him before. Yeah, okay, hold on. Yeah. Well, come on in. Okay, oops, watch it. Hey, Patrick, how are you? Come on in. Oh, it's okay it. Hey Patrick, how are you?

Come on in, I just don't want to go out. Oh it's okay, it's okay, I know he wants to get out. So Patrick, I've... Can I come in with you? Yeah, I brought Trevor. I just wanted to see if you guys could chat for a bit. Yeah. Come on in, Trev.

Yeah. Yep. Look who's here. So Patrick, Trevor, you guys have never talked before. Never. We've never met, have we? No. Not once.

How's it going, man? Not bad. Yeah. I never knew you. No, only time you would have ever seen me was in that courtroom, that's it. Yeah. It's just bullshit. It was bullshit over and over.

That's it. It's bullshit over and over. Like I said, nothing I could do. I cooperated. I did all I could do. You were being held in the PAW, right? No, here. That was here.

Here. They're allowed to hold you here in this holding cell for three weeks. You never spent any time in the PAW? Yeah, I did. But they're allowed to hold you here three weeks, even in the holding cell, under the law. So they did. How long were you in jail for? long they keep you in they arrested you on the Thursday month 16 days about 23 and a half hours so after the prelim you

were released in March and February oh and February of March yeah did they make you do a lie detector no No. No, I volunteered. I said, for sure, why not? Yeah, I must have answered eight questions about 16 times. Rosalie is sitting on the top step, carefully watching the meeting unfold below. I take the opportunity to ask her a few questions. So did your mom, did you testify at the prelim as well then?

No. They didn't? No. There's no family or nothing. Because anyone they subpoena wasn't allowed to be in court. That's all I have to testify, right? But no one was fucking called. Only Curtis and Lindsay were the only two people I knew that were called.

Hello? Oh, hi. Can I speak to Lindsay, please? This is... I was finally able to track down Lindsay Lang to ask him about what he remembers from that night. Oh, Lindsay, it's Dave Ridgen calling. I work for CBC Radio. Okay. Yeah, I'm working on the case of Kerry Brown, and I have interviewed Patrick Sumner and actually Claire Dubé quite a bit.

And they spoke about you as being somebody who was with them or with Patrick on the night that Carrie disappeared. So I just wanted to ask you if you could talk to me a little bit about that. I'm in the middle of something right now. I can't talk right now. Okay, when's a good time? Later on this evening or something. He promises me another call when he's less busy, but before he hangs up, I try to get a couple of questions in. Later on this evening? Okay. But just one question though, you were with Patrick that night at some point, right?

Like there was some point when you were with Patrick? Oh, okay. So you don't recall being with Patrick on the night Carrie disappeared, on that Thursday, October 16th? Okay. Okay, well, what time's good to call you? Okay. Sorry to disturb you now. I'll call you after supper.

Thanks very much. Okay, bye-bye. I called Lindsay back, but nobody answered the phone, and then for subsequent calls, the number simply stopped working. But I'd like more detail here, Lindsay, if you can call me back. If Lindsay Lang was not with Sumner the night Carrie disappeared, it tends to call that part of Sumner's alibi into question.

Please try again. Thank you. Back to Sumner. You told me last time that your car wasn't on the road that night. There was no car anywhere near there. You weren't even in your car. Not in my car, no. And as a matter of fact, Curtis and Lindsay and myself stopped her here at at the Burntwood. I think it was 8.30ish show. And your dad was there.

So your dad actually even seen me that night. That's interesting. Later, I run this by Jim Brown. He says that he was definitely not at the Burntwood Strip Club that night. Jim's recollection of the evening was that he and Carrie's mother drove their car to a local garage and left it there to get some work done. They took a leisurely walk home, then settled in for the night, Jim filling out his hockey pool.

Did you know Jim before? Well, I didn't know him. But now I know him, Well I didn't know him. But now I know him, see him after I know him. So I know, I seen him there that night. Because I wasn't facing the stripper. They were. Because the tables only had two seats on each side, right?

So Chris and Lindsey grabbed those so my back was the stripper. So his dad was off further over that way. Again, I'm not sure what to make of this. Mistaken identity, a mis-memory on Jim's or Patrick's part, or something else. Another one of Sumner's alibis is sitting right next to us, so I return to asking Rosalie about her recollections of that night. At what time would you say you got home? Oh, God. On the Thursday or Friday mornings?

I can't remember, to be honest. I have it marked down somewhere, but I know it was later in the evening. OK. And he came home at that? Because I was just making a snack to get ready for bed or something or other, and he come in and he was home because I was just making a snack to get ready for bed or something or other and he come in

and he was making a sandwich for his to eat or to take to work to school next day

I'm not sure which anymore but you were Patrick's alibi is that yeah that night so Patrick was with you

that night didn't care well they're your parents they don't count it came up that was his exact words they're your parents they don't count it came up that was his exact words they're your parents they don't count very hard you can't well I can't get a job in town for one thing doll there's still people who think he's guilty did you work at the hospital? I worked at the hospital for 28 years. Wow. What department?

I worked down in the kitchen and cafeteria. Oh, okay. Trevor takes over the questioning, asking Patrick Sumner things that he's been wondering for over 30 years. Were you familiar with where they found Kerry? Did you know about that stable road, that back access road, that hydro line? Were you familiar at all with that area? Well, growing up here, yeah, you know where it is.

But, I mean, familiar? No. It wasn't a place that you frequented or anything? No, never went there. You were just aware that it was there? I think I went through there once. Me and my friend in a truck. Right, just to check it out. And he just went through the hydro line to go back onto the road.

Just to see if he could get through with his truck. That's all it was. Do you think I would have to be... Joyriding? No, I wasn't there. Period. Not that evening. That's for sure.

And not for a long time, I'm sure. I had no reason to go out that way. I lived at the dump. I mean, the'm sure. I had no reason to go out that way. I lived at the dump. I mean, the other way. Yeah, like on the highway all the time, yeah, to the dump. Did you freak out when they were arresting you? Like, I didn't do this, fuck, what's wrong with you? Well, no. It was midnight. You were 22 at the time? Yeah, I was 66.

I watch Trevor as he talks to Sumner. He's pretty good at this. Friendly, but trying to draw information from a man who's connected to him through tragedy forever, it seems. You weren't angry? You weren't angry, Pat, that they were accusing you of this? Oh, of course, but what are you going to do, freak out? I did, but in my own way, and they just told him to do his job.

Yeah. You didn't know Carrie either, anyway. Like, she was younger, right? No, no, younger crowd than mine. And she had never been in your car as a Lyft or hitchhiking or anything? No, no. Did you ever drive by them at a bus stop? Do you ever remember driving by the girls?

Yeah, something about that. I don't remember it, but it came up in court. Another thing I want to ask Sumner is about a story I've heard from Carrie's friend, Rhonda Tennant. Before Carrie got murdered, Nicole, Carrie, and I were waiting for the city bus, and Patrick Sumner, in his car, drove by about three or four times. So when we went to court, that's what we were trying to explain. And how did you know it was Patrick Sumner that drove by three or four times?

I think because it was a gold or brown car or whatever. And then after she was murdered, a picture of him was shown. I don't know where it was shown, but then that made us think back. That's the guy that was driving that car. And then when we went to court, Nicole and I, we testified and we were ripped apart. And it was thrown out of court, which at that time was hard to believe because there was like 30 or 40 pieces of evidence.

The defense lawyer was awful, yeah. He just kept, you know, and we were 15 at the time, right? But the defense lawyer kept saying, well, how do you know he drove by three times? How do you know he drove by six times? You know, like he just, honest, honest, honest, honest. According to Rhonda, this incident was not entered into evidence because the girls couldn't be specific enough. It's circumstantial evidence at best and doesn't prove anything,

but Sumner remembers doing it. So you're driving by looking at the girls kind of thing? I was driving by to my friends and I picked them up and I drove back down and gave my ride to Ingo. Sumner says the passenger in his vehicle was a man with long hair and that the three girls testified in court that he was female. He always had long hair. So whatever that girl was in court that said she thought it was a girl I picked up or whatever, because he was doing this with his hair out of his

shirt, because he was leaning against it on the seat. Stories like this one about Sumner have circulated around Thompson and area for years. Mixes of truth and fiction. For me, it doesn't go away. I don't know how it did for you, really, because the police really haven't been any help. We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music

and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today. This brand new series created by Visit Mississauga celebrates a city 50 years in the making, paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse and dynamic third largest city. Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, to learn more. Available now on CBZ Listen. Oh, that coffee smells good. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing? That's salt, not sugar.

Let's get you another coffee. Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with mortgage payments on their minds. If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank. The earlier they understand your situation, the more options and relief measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada.

You maybe don't remember, but way, way back in the day, not long after Carrie's death, you were coming out of Chicken Chef with a friend, a girl I knew from high school, and he started yelling at you from a car. Probably didn't hear you. No, what I said is, if I ever got my hands on you, I was going to kill a car and I threatened probably didn't hear you no, what I said was if I ever got my hands on you I was going to kill you

and I wanted to yeah, I wanted to apologize for that I did and I'm sorry I did that to you I appreciate that, I didn't actually hear you oh, that's good, I'm glad you didn't because you didn't miss much the cops, yeah, I'm still pissed at the cops

from back in the day yeah there was nothing I could do about it you didn't miss much. The cops, yeah, I'm still pissed at the cops from back in the day. Well, yeah. Yeah. There was nothing I could do about it. I did all I could do. I cooperated so they could eliminate me as a suspect, but that's not what they did. Yeah. Obviously I had no control of that. Nor did you. No, no. No? I've never moved past this. No? No. I've never, I don't have a family, I've never got married, I have no kids, I have, I've never moved past this. No, I get it. No. I get that. It's not over. No, it's not. It's not over. It's far from over. Chances are I'll be dead and that's the only thing that'll be over. Before I get any clear answers. Or you get any clear answers.

I'm optimistic we're going to have some before then. I hope so. I have to be. I have to be. Well, Trev, what do you think? It's rock and roll. Are you good? Are you satisfied? Do you have all the questions you needed to ask this guy, Mr. Sumner? Yeah. You can talk to me if you really want to.

If you want to talk to me, don't say hi. Don't be surprised because it's probably... I know. I've seen you a few times. I know you can't see well. Because I have tunnel vision, literal tunnel vision. Take care, Trevor. Yeah, you too. Thanks, man. No problem.

No problem. And with a hug of sorts, this first meeting between Trevor and Patrick is over. Have a nice evening, you guys. I will. I will. Thank you. You too. I'm glad I got that over. First time when we went to the house this morning, I was a bit nervous. Yeah. Remember I said it feels cold out here?

Yeah. I had a bit of a shiver going on. I think part of it was nerves. Yeah, probably. Body temperature drops when you get scared. I don't know. But I wasn't scared. I was just a bit nervous.

I'm going to talk to him. I just hit me. I'm going to talk to him. And then I heard you knock and you went inside. So here we go. He doesn't strike me as the type of person that could have carried this out. He just doesn't. Careful. Yep. Watch the mud there you all right yeah i'm good okay his body language was very relaxed and kind of non-threatening but definitely my body feels like i'm carrying a bit of stress from that conversation. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I'll be honest with you, it's a conversation I probably thought I'd never have. What do you think Jim's gonna think of it? Well, my dad used to threaten him. My dad's told him in the past he'd blow his fucking head off. Yeah, I gave him a hug. I was surprised how small he was. Given how small he is now, it gives me an idea of how small he was back then in 1986. And he is only about 5'8", 5'9". Not a big guy. If that had been him and my sister back in the day,

she would have left him with some distinct injuries. Because she was tough for a little chick. Like, she didn't fight, she didn't go looking for trouble but I used to wrestle with her she was strong for like 5 feet 115 pounds but boy she was tough, she had good endurance too yeah I'm sure if she had tangled with him back in the day

he would have had marks to show for it for sure I'm left with a mix of thoughts in the wake of all my sumner encounters on one hand he seems open and willing to talk and to argue forcefully about his innocence taking on the various allegations against him he says he didn't see carrie that night and didn't take part in any killing that his car wouldn't have been in the area where simmons says he didn't see Carrie that night and didn't take part in any killing, that his car wouldn't have been in the area where Simmons says he saw it and him. But on the other hand, some aspects of Sumner's alibi,

in the absence of others to back it up, such as his father or the friends who were with him after he dropped Claire Dubé off, seem questionable or at least misremembered. Passage of time and lack of a transcript and police verification make assessments here speculative. An autopsy report might help figure out the timing of Carrie's death, dispel some rumors about how she was found, and give clues as to number of perpetrators and, as Urbanovsky says, victimology. But Trevor's feeling, without completely exonerating him, is that Sumner probably didn't kill Carrie. I won't go out of my way to talk to him.

If I see him or if he comes up to me or something in public, I'll talk to him, sure. I won't seek him out. Trevor and Jim both feel that it's been a necessary and worthwhile Sumner summit. And removing some focus from him helps to bring other evidence and people into view. Did the occupants of the muscle car and the white van that Simmons saw with their lights off leaving the stable road that night have something to do with Carrie's disappearance? What about the red van Max Coombs saw with Saskatchewan plates? The man with curly hair and the terrifying stare in the white van described by Donna Kovic?

Or her current husband, the trucker, who says he heard screams the night Carrie was murdered? How many voices did he hear and what genders? Does Fred Spence, whose ex-girlfriend claims he said, when we killed that white girl in Cree, no more? The two brothers and the man named Eagle, who reportedly had been seen in a white van with an air mattress in it the week before Carrie's murder. Where are they now and will they come forward to tell us what they were doing the night Carrie disappeared?

And the 2 a.m. Friday morning phone call Marnie took from the distraught man who said he had just killed someone. Is he listening now? Will he speak again? If you know something, or are one of the people I've been trying to contact, please get in touch. I'll continue investigating Carrie's case for as long as it takes, and will provide updates whenever necessary, but for now, this is the end of regular episodes. Steppen Thompson. It's July 2018. I'm on my way over to see Trevor and Jim.

I wanted to come up and see Trevor before we broadcast Carrie's case, season five. Just touch base, see how he and Jim are doing. And there's Trevor right there, sitting on his porch. It's like I never left. Good to see you, man. How you doing, brother? Good, good to see you. Good, good, you all mic'd up or something there?

Yeah, yeah. Nice. What do you think? What do you drive it? Did they give you this different Jeep this time? Trevor likes to call me brother. He likes to laugh hard and speak fast. He's loyal to a cause and to his friends and family and kind to strangers, to me. You want to go in?

We going inside? Sure. Trevor is everybody's brother. You have been listening to Episode 10, Sumner. To catch up on past seasons of Someone Knows Something, visit cbc.ca slash sks. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kemp, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Additional transcription by Mikael Arana.

Fabiola Carletti is our digital producer. Evan Agard is our video producer. Ben Shannon designed our artwork. Tanya Springer is the senior producer for CBC Podcasts. And Leslie Merklinger is the senior director of Audio Innovation. Thanks to Justin Heinrichs for his shoe print expertise, and to Ken Jackson and the APTN for their assistance in this investigation. And special thanks to the researchers at the CBC Reference Library.

Original music by David Fetterman. Our theme song is Thompson Girl by the Tragically Hip. I'm Angeline Tedueo. my car as well looks like Christmas at 55 degrees this latitude weakens my knees Thompson girl girl

somewhere between dream and duty Broken through with all them shoots of beauty Thompson girl walking from Churchill Across the icy world with polar bears, but it's mostly uphill But when she saw that nickel stack She whistled hard and I whistled back Thompson girl I'm Whistleback Thompson, girl. The grower.

Time between dreams, state and duty. Poke it through with all the shoots of beauty. The grower Somewhere between dreams and duty Pull me in Through with all them shoots of beauty Thompson girl, we're down to the dead ass plant Thank you. Wait till you see it poking through with them shoots of beauty. It's the end of an animal view weather. It's time to end this siege together.

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