Someone Knows Something - S5 Episode 5 Part 2: Mad Max

Episode Date: October 29, 2018

Another muscle car, similar to the one seen by witnesses near the crime scene, was out driving through Thompson on the night of Kerrie's murder. The driver of that car was known as Mad Max. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/someone-knows-something-season-5-kerrie-brown-transcripts-listen-1.4850662

We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga, capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music, and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today. This brand new series, created by Visit Mississauga, celebrates a city 50 years in the making, paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse, and dynamic third largest city. Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, This is a CBC Podcast. The following program contains mature subject matter.

Listener discretion is advised. You are listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. This is Episode 5, Part 2. Mad Max. Hey, I'm looking for a guy named Max. What's that? I'm looking for Max. That's me.

Oh, you're Max. Sorry, how's it going? I'm looking for Max. That's me. Oh, you're Max. Yeah. Sorry. How's it going? I work for CBC Radio. I don't know if you're the right Max Coombs, though. Did you used to live in Thompson? Yeah.

Okay, maybe you can help me. Do you mind just chatting for a sec? I just have two questions for you. I'll be like... Yeah, yeah, and I'll just stay here. All right. Okay. I've heard that there were three cars in Thompson that match the description of the car Sean Simmons says he saw leaving the stable road the night Carrie was murdered.

Patrick Sumner's, Derek Herkert's, a.k.a. Grimace, and another one driven by a man people called Mad Max. This seems to be the Max I'm looking for. He drives away in his truck but returns a short while later. He stands before me at the edge of the path leading to his house beyond. That's got to be the smallest

compressor I've ever seen. Max is a scrapper who likes to find things, fix them up and sell them and he's handy with tools. Is that for paint? No actually that one will run two guns. Oh really? Like staplers or actual nail guns? Nailers. Okay here's my card. So I tracked you down. I'm looking for someone

named Max Coombs who used to live in Thompson. I'm working on a case, Kerry Brown case. Oh yeah. And I was wondering If the police ever came to you Because you owned a car That looked similar to the one That was seen that night Actually yeah We give interviews I was even

I even give an interview here Oh really Yeah We were actually driving around that night Oh okay We were where they found her We were not We fucking turned around

Not too far away from there Is that right Yeah And so what kind of car did you own 69 GTX And what color was it Green They found her, we were not, we fucking turned around, not too far away from there. Is that right? Yeah. And so what kind of car did you own? 69 GTX. And what colour was it? Green.

Was that GTX a floor shifter? Yeah. At what time were you out there? Oh, I don't know, midnight, something like that. Really? And do you remember coming out of the stable roads with your lights off? No. Okay.

Actually, I got stopped with the GTX, so we had to take it home because the exhaust was too loud. So we were driving around in Vega. Max had been driving his GTX around, but was told to take it off the road by police, he says, because it was too loud. He then got into a 1973 dark red Vega and resumed driving around Thompson. I want to know if Mad Max was the guy who may have passed Simmons on the right, as Roley Becker implied. Oh, first of all, okay, so did you ever pass anybody on the right side that night? No. Did you ever pass on the right side? No. Did you have a nickname back then for driving? Well, yeah, people call me Mad Max, but it was just...

I heard the nickname and I thought, I wonder if he was the guy, maybe some other time of the night, passed on the right or something. No, I was the one that got passed on the right. And that was a satellite that, about a 7273 satellite. A brown satellite. I could have swore it was fucking Sumner's. Hang on, you were passed on the right as well? Yeah, on this side. When were you passed on the right?

We're coming back from the airport. A car come out of the stable road and come out, just about hit us, but pulled out on the right and then pulled in front of us and left. Oh, so it pulled out and then pulled out a little bit. So it wasn't like you were... And it come off the stable road and... And just peeled right out. If what Max is saying is true, he also saw a car that looked like Sumner's. Coming out with the lights off, with no lights on, and buggered off down the highway.

What time was that? Fuck, I can't remember, man. That's a long time ago. Were you in a GTX at that time? I think I was in the Vega. So you took the GTX home because it was too loud. You went back and got a Vega. Yeah, we were out driving around. I think we were smoking pot or something. And out touring around. It was a nice night.

It was fucking decent. Who were you with? I had my wife, and I think we had maybe Glenn Barnhart. I'm not sure. And they were with you when this car passed you on the way? Yeah, yeah. Interesting. Yeah, they were with me when everything.

They were with us all night. Good morning. Hi there, I'm looking for Glenn Barnhart. Speaking. I called Glenn Barnhart, and he also remembers driving with Max from the airport toward Thompson on Mystery Lake Road when a mid-70s brown car came out of the stable road very quickly as they went by and then passed them on the shoulder.

This brown car comes high-ball her out of the stable road, and he passed us on the shoulder on Mystery Lake instead of going around us on the left lane or anything. He passed us on the shoulder on the right. So the timing of that was what time? I'm going to say around 10, 11 o'clock at night. Passing on the shoulder, just like Sean Simmons said happened to him. Max puts the moment at Stable Road no later than midnight,

and Barnhart remembers it happening earlier in the evening, no later than 11pm. Sean Simmons says it happened to him around midnight too, but doesn't mention anything about a dark red Vega. Did you see Patrick Sumner in the car? No. I don't even know for sure if it was Pat's car. Yeah. But it looked like Pat's car.

I couldn't say it was Pat's car. What color was it? It was tan color, the same color as his. And you say it was a satellite? Yeah. You know it was a satellite. You know cars. Oh yeah, I know that. I know what cars are. You know cars. I'm sure it was a satellite? Yeah. You know it was a satellite. You know cars. Oh yeah, I know that. I know what cars are.

You know cars. I'm sure it was a four-door. Fucking, I can't remember if Pat's was a four-door or a two-door. According to Rowley, Sumner's car was a two-door Dodge Coronet. Pat's was that same kind of brownie colour? Same. Just about. I thought it was Pat's car. Bondo? Rust? No. No? No.o? Rust? No.

No? No. Nothing you noticed? No. Nothing special about the headlights? No. Different? Any passengers in the car? I don't even know. I never even seen the driver.

I'm driving and he pulled up, I guess, a little bit back behind me and then out in front and gone. I couldn't say if there was a passenger in it or not. Headlights, were they off when you saw them first? Yeah, the lights were off. Actually, when he pulled away, they were off. Like when he went ahead, there was no lights. Did you see a van at the time? There was a van.

They had broke the lock off McCready Campground across the road and they were parked in the campground. And there was a tent with a light in the tent, but nobody in the fucking tent. They were both in the van here, whoever. What colour was the van? I think it was red. It had Saskatchewan plates. It was an older Ford, like one of those straight up the front. The van Max says he saw was not accompanying the car that he and Barnhart saw coming out of the stable roads with its lights off.

The van Max saw later that night was red and parked at McCready Campground. Yeah, we had told the cops at this time, like, that van, I couldn't fucking believe it. How did you know they'd broken into McCready's there? Well, it was locked. Usually the campground was locked or something? It was locked. It was locked earlier that day. Like it's locked up after a certain time of the year or whatever, and they just leave it out. The chain was hanging. I can't remember if the lock was on it or not, but it was hanging. It was open. We drive in there and they're camping there.

And they're not supposed to be? No, it was closed. Okay. And then you say it had Saskatchewan plates. Remember anything about the numbers on the plates? No. No. Red van. Yeah. Any windows in the van? Yeah, it was a full window van.

Oh, so windows on the sides. I'm thinking it would have been maybe 70s, early 70s. Oh, okay. And it was odd. It was just fucking odd that it would be there camping and they would have like, normally you'd go camp in a fucking parking lot somewhere. They weren't in a tent either. And there was a light in the tent. The tent was lit right up. You could see it. And there was nobody in the tent.

Did you go look in the tent? No. You just could tell you couldn't see anyone? Yeah, just when we drove by. And we drove around next morning. morning actually i went around next morning to mccready campground it was gone did you just go just say what's going on with the van go check out what's going on with that did you alert anyone did you phone the mccready people and say hey there's a guy camping okay that's really interesting what time were you in the gtx oh i't remember. I think we took it home about probably 10, 30, 11. Okay. Something like that. What had happened is they had those RCMP stopping to find out what number of people were drinking and driving, and they were doing like a survey. So then we went through that, and when we pulled up, the cop stopped me, and he says, they're doing a check. He said, I'm stopping you because your car is too loud.

I said, no, it's not loud. I says, it's quite fine. Oh, no, he says, it's loud. He said, I could hear you three, four blocks away. So he says, take it home. It was fall time anyway. It was close. Like I actually was going to park it for the year anyway.

And this was the night Kerry disappeared. Yeah, it was close like i had actually was going to park it for the year anyway and this was the night carrie disappeared that was the exact night yeah i can remember after we come out of that um see that we must have been out there more than once because we went in and drove and turned around by the stables too and come back out and then we drove out south out to i think the johnson johnson lake road and we went down an old road there. We're south, and is that by the dump? Yeah. Okay. But not quite out to the dump, all the way to the dump,

like a little this side. Yeah. And we turned around, and somebody had skinned a bear. And when the fucking headlights went on, I swear it was a man. That night? Yeah. Someone skinned a bear and put it on the road?

No, it was kind of like a dead old road, like an old trail through the bush. That night? Yeah. Someone skinned a bear and put it on the road? No, it was kind of like a dead old road, like an old trail through the bush. I see, okay. We went in there and was turning around and the lights hit it. I swore to fuck somebody was dead in the road, so we got out and looked. That was a bear. Wow. But you'd swear it was a man. You see a bear skinned out, it looks just

like a man. Oh, it was wicked. Yeah, the GTX was fucking like done up. You wouldn't drive it on the gravel road would stay right strictly on the pavement yeah but you were not in the stable roads with the gtx no okay so when you went in with the vega did you go to the stables area only or down the elbow down by the hydro line there we went uh we pulled into the stables and then we made a right turn actually we were not that fucking far away from where they found Carrie, I don't think. Where we turned around there. And you don't remember what time, but it would have been

after 10.30. Yeah, it would have been fuck after midnight, I think. Man, you could have been out there around the same time. So were you at the prelim? Did you go to the prelim and testify at the prelim for Sumner? No. Did you see any other vehicles when you went in there? No. No other people?

No. Did you ever see Sean Simmons' red truck that night? Sean Simmons? Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know Sean Simmons. Fine. So when you saw that car pull out of the stable road, its lights off,

it passed you after you passed it, right? Did you notice a red truck around there anywhere? No. Okay. No, not to my knowledge. I got a picture of it. It's the red one. Just the back, it's a four, it was a four-door.

It had a steel back on it kind of thing. Oh, yeah. You remember seeing that? Doesn't ring any bells. Okay. it's a ford it was a four door it had a steel back on it kind of thing oh yeah you remember seeing that doesn't ring any bells okay but we weren't looking either of course you know and he may have been down a bit crouched back about you might not have caught sight of him so max was either there at the same time sean simmons was and the same car passed them both on the shoulder, but neither Sean nor Max remember seeing each other, and Max didn't see a white van. Or it was a different time of night, so Simmons wasn't there when Max was, and neither was the white van Simmons says he saw. But a 1970s car similar or identical to Patrick Sumner's came out of the stable

roads at that different time and also passed Max Coombs on the shoulder. The common denominator between Coombs and Simmons is seeing the 1970s era car that they say looked like Sumner's. How old were you then? I donner's. How old were you then? I don't know. How old are you now? I'm 65. Okay, so 65 minus 30.

Yeah, 40, something like that. Okay. So you were out driving around, you got rid of the GTX, you got a Vega, then you went driving around again. You went almost to the dump, you went down to Johnson Lake Road, saw the skin bear. Yeah, I think we're out fucking hooting. We're out smoking a few joints, and it was just a beautiful fucking night. Yeah.

And just didn't want to go home, man. Anything else weird other than the traffic stopping? The two things that stick out about that night is that van in the campground and that bear. Because at the time, we didn't know that fucking Kerry Brown had been murdered. Like, we had no fucking idea. An early 1970s red van with Saskatchewan plates and windows on the side that would have been in Thompson in October 1986. If anyone has more information about this vehicle, please let me know.

So then, you were interviewed by police. Yeah as soon as we found out what had happened we fucking told them. Okay. Actually up there we went and told them what we had saw and then we were never contacted again but I was contacted here. I don't know who the hell it was they took uh wanted me to take a DNA, so I said, yeah, no problem. I don't know, some sergeant or some goddamn thing here. Okay. Pricked my finger, I remember that. So some blood then, okay. Glenn Barnhart, who accompanied Max that night, says he remembers talking to police the day after Kerry's body was discovered, and then didn't hear from them again for 10 years

until they came to take his DNA. Like we expected the police to get a hold of us but they got onto that Pat Sumner shortly afterwards and they were like a dog with a bone on that and they never ever followed up on too much else I don't think. Like I say we were out there that evening you would have thought they'd come and asked us a few questions at the time, but no. So Glenn says there wasn't a lot of follow-up from police, and he doesn't remember seeing the skinned bear that night. Back to Max Coombs.

But what I had heard is they had fucking evidence against Sumner, and it was pretty well cut and dried that it was fucking Sumner, and so nobody looked any farther. And he was, Pat was a bit of a fucking oddball. Did you ever talk to Pat about it? Not about that. I talked to Pat quite a bit. I knew him good.

I knew his dad good. What was the rest of the Sumner family like? Oh, Bob, he was a bit fucking odd too. He ran the fucking dump out there, but yeah, I had to get along with him because there was a lot of stuff went out there that was decent. You know, so you had to get along with Bob. Max and Roley and Grimace provide a lot to chew on regarding the various permutations of 1970 car

that may have been seen coming out of the stable road the night carrie disappeared anyway thanks again all right across the stories the same general notion prevails a big 70s car that looked like patrick sumner's cornet was seen brownish tan or goldish greenish in. But there was also a van scene. Simmons saw a white one emerge lights off at the same time as the 70s car. Max Coombs didn't see the white van, but later in the evening says he saw a red one with Saskatchewan plates at MacReady Campground. And Donna Kovic, who found Carrie's body on the Saturday while riding her horse,

also has a story to tell about a van she says she saw early on the Friday morning, around the time Carrie had disappeared. Donna was at the horse stables about a kilometer from where Carrie was eventually found, just down the road. We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga. from where Kerry was eventually found just down the road. created by Visit Mississauga, celebrates a city 50 years in the making, paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse, and dynamic third largest city. Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City,

to learn more. Available now on CBZ Listen. Are you sure you parked over here? Do you see it anywhere? I think it's back this way. Come on. Hey, you're going the wrong way. Feeling distracted?

You're not alone. Whether renting, considering buying a home, or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. Oh, I was out bathing my horse for a horse show at four in the morning and a guy in a van came in the yard and turned around and he stared at me and I stared at him. I saw a few people in there and I was just freaked out why somebody would be out there that late at night.

And it just gave me the creeps, right? Well, four in the morning you were bathing your horse. I was bathing my horse, and they sent me to Winnipeg and put me under hypnosis. Who put you under hypnosis? The RCMP flew me to Winnipeg and took me to the university and had me put under hypnosis to try and remember better what I saw. The van come turn around in the yard. That's what they wanted to know because under hypnosis,

she was in the van at the time. She was in the van? Did you see Carrie Ann in the van? Yes. So you're saying you saw her in the van on the Friday? Yeah. You may have seen her in the van on the Friday morning. Yes.

What color was the van? This is 30 years ago now. It was a darker color van, and it had little windows on the sides. Round or square? They were round, like bubbles kind of thing. The person in the van that you saw? Probably a middle-aged white guy.

Middle-aged white guy? Yeah. Long hair, dark hair? Kind of long curly dark brown hair if I remember correctly. Glasses, mustache, any other distinguishing features, jewelry? I don't know what they got from the hypnosis i

don't maybe they tell you i don't know he was one of these people that just pierces staring at you and you're wondering what's on your mind buddy you know i'm here alone at four in the morning bathing my horse i can get in my truck pretty damn fast that's what i was thinking if he would have stopped or got out of the vehicle i'd'd have been gone like a shot. You stayed there and then what happened to the van? They drove out of the yard and then... They left, like to the highway. They left, not to the highway. I knew they went down that road, but that's why I thought they were drinking somewhere, wanted something to drink. So they didn't just leave, they kept going. Yeah, they kept going. You could hear that everything out there, it's so crisp, you kept going. Yeah, they kept going. You could hear everything out there.

It's so crisp, you know, especially it was cold that night. And it's so crisp and you can hear everything for a long time. Like I heard him coming when he turned off the highway. The sound really travels. And I thought, who the hell's out here this time of night? And then I thought maybe some of my friends or whatever, you know. And I thought maybe some of my friends or whatever you know and I thought maybe that but also another point my husband that I'm married to now I didn't know him then him and his buddies were drinking out by the graveyard and they heard a girl scream

and they got scared and took off and they often feel bad about that too. We've talked about it, that they wish they would have investigated it a little further the same night. Early morning on Friday morning? Yeah. But like I told you, the sound travels so much at night, you can't really pinpoint it. But they did hear it and they got scared and they left. Donna's husband is a trucker, and between his relentless schedule and some recent health issues Donna herself has suffered, I've not been able to catch up to him long enough to get his version of events.

Alleged screams he heard the night Carrie disappeared. You didn't hear anything after that? No, but I was playing my radio in the barn. I turned it on because I was creeped out by the vehicle. So I turned on my radio in the barn and I was listening to music, just wanted to finish my thing and get ready for the show in the morning. Did you ever see any other vehicles? No.

Including that van again? No. No vehicles coming and going that night? No, no. And that van never came back neither. They were gone. But if it's true they done what they done and then they got stuck to boot, that would make sense. And you say that you saw Carrie in the van? That's what I said out of hypnosis. Okay. Yeah. What did you think of Patrick Sumner's case, or the fact that the police had focused on him? Well, I've heard lots of stories about me that aren't true. You know what I mean?

I don't know. He's not the guy I saw driving the van. He's not the guy I saw driving the van. Another van with suspicious timing. Or was it one of the two already seen, the red or the white? One that had Carrie in it, according to Kovic, under hypnosis. Hypnosis has long been tried by law enforcement to probe for evidence allegedly lodged in our subconscious, but credible studies have found the technique can, under certain circumstances, result in distortions of memory.

The Supreme Court of Canada ruled in 2007 that evidence obtained via hypnosis shouldn't be used in criminal trials because it isn't sufficiently reliable. But up until 2007, evidence gleaned from hypnosis had been used for almost 30 years in Canadian courts. Kovic and Simmons both say they were hypnotized by police. Sumner's car or not Sumner's car. Sumner the driver, Sumner not the driver. The timing, the vehicles, what was seen that night? At the end of a long day of questions, Trevor and I plan to take one more drive. It's about 10.30 at night up here in Thompson. I'm just getting ready to go pick up Trevor.

We're going to perform a test out at the spot off Cemetery Road where Simmons and Leapheart said that they saw the green car and the van coming toward them down the road that leads to the stables. Hey, Trevor. Dave? I thought you were knocking. I thought when it got dark I was supposed to come over. Is it dark?

Sorry, Dave. That's okay. I'm half gone now. Do you want to go or no? Yes. Okay. Do you want to go? I'm good to go or no? Yes. Okay. Do you want to go? I'm good to go. It's end of day and Trevor's had a few beers, but he says he wants to go anyway. I'm really interested in

Those guys really see. Okay, let's go. Yes. Okay, I'll be out here That's the back door you're a smart cookie tapping on your you're in the like that you're in the back door now oh shit that's a first this is the way things are and i'm driving oh i've drank yeah i've had 12 beers today dave but no i don't drink hard every day that's the madness of an alcoholic and so so one day you'll have two, and the next day you'll have three, and the next day you'll have four. And that's fine, that's social drinking, right? But the next day you have 15. That's the alcoholic. That's what I am, Dave. I drive down Mystery Lake to Cemetery Road and then veer right onto it,

and then left onto the short cut-off road that leads back to Mystery Lake and climb up to the lip of the highway. Are we at the spot? Yeah, we're right here where Sean and Larry were. Sean Simmons said he slowly drove up this lip with his lights off when he was playing car football tag with his friends. And when he reached the top, right where Trevor and I are sitting now, Simon saw the car and van approaching him on Stable Road across the highway with their lights off.

Do you see the other side of the highway? I can see the other side of the highway. It's not totally pitch black out here yet. Right. And that's what it would have been back then. Definitely that time of year time of night it would have been black. Like black black. A vehicle with its lights off could have been seen from this position and once Sean turned his lights on he would have been able to see the vehicles across the road illuminated. There's a car coming down Stable Road with its lights on right now. Is that right? Yeah.

So there it is with its lights on, and you can barely see it, of course. With lights on, a car facing you at night on a dark road like this one obscures itself in the brightness. Once the oncoming vehicles turned their lights on, Sean would not have been able to see much detail. Is this road easy to maneuver, Dave, with no lights on?

Oh, you want me to go drive on it? Do you want to? Yeah. We decide to test if it's possible to drive on the stable road without your lights on, and by now it is completely dark out here. I drive across to the stable road and continue to the dead end.

Where are you right now, Dave? Well, we're starting right at the road where Carrie was found. So we're at the hydro line? Yeah. So there's my lights off now. Yeah, let's see. It's pitch black, but for the dashboard lights, we're able to drive carefully down the stable road to

the highway. By Simmons' explanation, he surprised the two vehicles by turning his own lights on. Then they followed suit, turning their lights on. Sean says he turned left toward town and the car and the van both turned right toward town after. Max Kuhn says the car he saw also turned right toward town. If the vehicles had turned left, they would have headed out of town. Passing the airport in that direction, one is then faced with almost 100 kilometers of frost-broken highway through Black Spruce Forest before coming to the Cree community of Nelson House. If the drivers of these vehicles were innocent,

why not come forward in the ensuing months and years to tell investigators and the Brown family that it was you, but you had nothing to do with Carrie's murder? Nobody has ever come forward to say the car or van belonged to them. So my belief is that Simmons and maybe Coombs and maybe Kovic come forward to say the car or van belonged to them. So my belief is that Simmons and maybe Coombs and maybe Kovic saw the person or persons responsible for Carrie's murder that night. And if there were multiple perpetrators as I believe there were, based on the two vehicles

Simmons saw and what I'm hearing about multiple sources of DNA evidence, it would be a lot harder to keep secret. What if there was a weak link? What if one of the people involved felt remorse and tried to tell someone? What if they tried to tell the police themselves? Because there was a phone call. You have been listening to Episode 5, Part 2. Mad Max. If you wish to submit an anonymous tip about Carrie Brown's murder, visit cbc.ca slash sks or email the show at sks at cbc.ca. Want a place to discuss episodes with others and discover exclusive content?

Join our new Facebook group and follow us on Twitter at SKSCBC. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kemp, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Original music by David Fetterman. Our theme song is Thompson Girl by the're down to the dead house plan. Thompson Girl, we jettison everything we can.

She says springtime's coming, wait till you see it broken through with them shoots of beauty. Yeah, so Dave, I want to apologize to you if my drinking is affecting your ability to do this podcast or this doc the way you wanted to with me it is part of who I am and uh unfortunately it's it's where I'm at so I don't know what expectations you have I I don't pretend to know it's none of my business but um I want you I want this to be as successful as possible so you don't pretend to know. It's none of my business. But I want you, I want this to be as successful as possible. So you don't need to, no need to apologize. There's no, no need for an apology from you ever or your dad. And that's all I'm going to say about that. Someone Knows Something is a CBC podcast.

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