Someone Knows Something - S5 Episode 6: The Call

Episode Date: October 29, 2018

A retired RCMP officer claims that certain suspects, tips and evidence may have been overlooked during the original investigation, including a very suspicious phone call. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/someone-knows-something-season-5-kerrie-brown-transcripts-listen-1.4850662

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Listener discretion is advised. You are listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. In Season 5, David Ridgen travels north to Thompson, Manitoba to investigate the 1986 murder of Carrie Brown. This is Episode 6, The Call. Hello? Hi, is this Kathleen? Yes.

Hi Kathleen, it's Dave Ridgen calling. How are you? I'm good, thanks. You? Kathleen Gold is Trevor Brown's cousin. Carrie's mom and my mom are sisters, and Carrie was only like a month older than me. Kathleen lives in Western Canada, where she cares pretty much full-time for her twin daughters, both on the autism spectrum. She's also one of the administrators of a Facebook page dedicated to the Kerry Brown case. Well, I think the biggest information that I could offer that's more than what Trevor would be able to tell you is I've had a personal Facebook conversation with a retired RCMP officer that used to work in Thompson. He's opened up to me quite a bit and given me some information and his thoughts and feelings and stuff. It took a while for him to open up to me quite a bit and given me some information and his thoughts and feelings and stuff.

It took a while for him to open up to me until he could trust me. If I could ask about what he was saying or alleging in his conversations with you, this arsonist officer. He was saying like we should request a national inquiry. This retired officer could be a goldmine of information. Kathleen cites a note he wrote to her on Facebook about evidence that he says was available to RCMP investigators at the time, but... But nobody wanted to do anything with it. The investigators had appeared to have their minds made up that they already had their suspect. So I don't know if it's true or not true but that's his position to us it's like was there some kind of mishandling of the case like i don't know

i've received personal tips on facebook we've encouraged people to call in and they've said that they have they say like no rcmp called them. Nobody came by to talk to them. So it feels like what he's saying is true. Like, they don't want to follow up on leads because it's such an old case. To back this last point up, Kathleen reads me one of the more revealing public posts made by her retired RCMP source. He said these facts have been known by the RCMP since day one, actually prior to the body being found.

I was ordered to turn over all of my sources of information. I was ordered not to follow up on any leads. Putting this in writing is the hardest thing I've ever done. This family deserves closure after all these years. Jean-Marc Villeneuve, RCMP. And is it Jean, like J-E-A-N? Yeah. And then Villeneuve, V-I-L-L-E-N-E-U-V-E. Where does he live in Ontario now? Do you know?

Let's go see Jean-Marc. Hello. Hello. Finally meet somebody face to face. Jean-Marc. Hello. Hello. Finally meet somebody face-to-face. Jean-Marc, thanks so much for doing this. Jean-Marc Villeneuve seems taller than his six feet to me. Serious, with glasses and short white hair, he doesn't come off as reckless. Nobody really knows what I did for a living. To be sure it's him, I ask to see his ID and he shows me his Veterans

Affairs card, a retired RCMP members badge with number and later some photos of him in his red Serge RCMP uniform. Can I get you a coffee or something? Yeah. Villeneuve is who he says he is and I've confirmed with other sources that he worked in Thompson for the RCMP at the time Kerry Brown was murdered. I posted it on Facebook. I have nothing to hide. Villeneuve makes some coffee, and we move outside. I was a member of the RCMP for 30 years. I was posted in Thompson, Manitoba from December 85 to January 1990.

The remote, demanding work was made more difficult by the fact that Villeneuve felt his Indigenous background was a potential source of friction between him and his colleagues. I'm First Nation. My dad's Ojibwe. But I was brought up in Ottawa, brought up in a French-Canadian environment. I didn't speak any English until I joined the RCMP. Do you think that you were any further accepted because of your status? No. Or less, maybe even less? I didn't even bring it up when I was up north because for any NCO or officer,

if you were First Nation, you were worse than lice. The RCMP knowledge where all Indians are lazy, all they want to do is sleep and drink and get drunk. Basically any special constables we have were treated like dirt and a lot of them would just leave their guns and leave and go back to the communities because they were treated like dirt. You cannot forget, Thompson was an extremely violent community. Every scene we went to was either a knife or an axe or a 2x4 or something. What's the explanation that you might have for that? It was an accumulation of violence over the years,

being a mining town. Basically, a lot of people from throughout Canada, a lot of people that went there to make money quick. And what did they do on their days off? It was drink, use drugs, and fight. And it had been like that since the creation of Thompson. But it progressively got worse and worse and worse. Villeneuve says he was not officially involved in Carrie's investigation, but that initially in the very early stages, right after she had disappeared, he was pitching in on it, and that included being called to the crime scene on the day Carrie was discovered. How fast were you out there after Carrie had been found?

I was there late afternoon, early evening. We were all brought out there, the entire detachment, and we did a structured search of the area. We did what we could, but the dog master had already found some clothing and some other stuff, and we really didn't, we were kind of useless because it was so contaminated anything else found other than clothing not that i remember not by myself can you describe what you heard or saw about the crime scene by what i could see by the footprints the car prints and everything else it was totally contaminated in more ways than one. It was like too many people had gone through it, too many people had seen it. I never saw the body.

I wasn't there when they found the body or they moved the body. And they moved it awfully quick, which I really didn't understand that part either. All I know, I had heard that it was a very violent scene and she had been sexually assaulted and her head crushed. That's all I knew. In regards to the crime scene, the other problem was the RCMP, again because of budgets, would reuse body bags. So you were supposed to wash them and reuse them. In those days, you can't forget, all we had was hair, fiber, blood,

and anything that was found on the body. But it's pretty hard to have good samples of anything if the body bags are contaminated. And the body bag, somewhere in the file, I haven't read it, but I was told they found black hairs because of contamination. This is the first that I've heard, even secondhand, of contaminated body bags and black hairs. If hairs were found, were they included in evidence or discounted? Upon finding a body, procedure at the time, from my understanding,

was to bag remains in a new, clean, translucent or transparent bag with a zipper, and then put that bag into the traditional black rubber bag with another zipper. So two bags, one inside the other. The black bags, Villeneuve says, were reused. We still need to get our hands on Kerry's autopsy. The medical examiner's office in Winnipeg actually refused Trevor's request for it, so he's filed an appeal. After the murder, I started getting calls from my sources, and they were going in a direction which was basically three kids, which were known to me and quite violent. There were three men from ages 17 to early 20s at the time. Two of them were brothers, and the third was a man who goes by the name Eagle.

For legal reasons, I can't reveal them at this time. There was an incident the weekend before with Donnie Fisher and those three gentlemen in a van where Donnie had to pull his service revolver and call for backup, and it was a very, very violent situation. These kids didn't care, and they were ready to kill. There was no ifs, buts, or maybes about it. If Donnie went to pull his service revolver,

they would have killed him. So a report would have been written every time a revolver... Not in those days. Oh, so no service revolver report written? No, there would have been... Basically, the kids were picked up for, I think it was obstruction of justice and something else, and they were released the next day. I've put in several calls to former RCMP member Donnie Fisher

to try to corroborate Villeneuve's story. Fisher now lives in northern Canada, but so far nothing back. Do you know their ages at the time? At the time they would have been anywhere from 17 to 19. I pushed for more information about the two brothers and the other fellow named Eagle. I've never heard of them before either. Villeneuve says they lived in Thompson at the time of Carrie's murder,

but had also lived in a Métis community that surrounded Norway House. All three lived in Thompson. When they got in trouble, they went to Norway House. They went back to their communities, and we'd have to haul them back. I have no idea if any of these men have any knowledge of Kerry's murder. The criminal records that I'm able to find for them from the late 80s and early 1990s reveal drug, theft, and assault charges. The last known address that I can find for one of them is in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, where, in 2015, he was charged with assaulting a man with a beer can. Villeneuve also says that the three drove around in a whitish van,

one that often looked grey with grime. Every time we dealt with them, it was violent. And they did have a van. And I remember them having an air mattress in the back of the van because I searched it enough times. An air mattress. I wonder if it was like the one used for traction to get a vehicle out of the mud next to where Carrie was killed.

It's an intriguing detail but for me it's far from evidence. Owning a van and a mattress and having a history of run-ins with the police does not necessarily make someone a suspect in Carrie's murder. I'll be looking into the three men Villeneuve mentioned later, but will do so with a high degree of skepticism. Basically the information I was getting, it was in regards to the van, and my sources were telling me that. So I wrote it up, brought it to Dennis Hill, who was in charge of the investigation.

He said, we have a suspect. I don't want to see. I don't want to hear your stuff. So I gave him the information. He basically tore it up, shredded it, and threw it out. I said, you can't do that. He said, as of today, you have no more sources. All your sources are turned over to us.

We will deal with them. You will not deal with any more sources. And nobody in detachment will deal with sources except us. I've heard that Dennis Heald is ill with Parkinson's disease and may not be able to talk to me. If Villeneuve's description of events here is accurate, I'll need to speak to someone who was in charge at the time, perhaps John Toast.

Because we were told to work on our files, basically conclude them, and that was it. The major case manager's theory was that you have 72 hours to find a suspect, after that it becomes a computer dump. Everybody who has been tasked to do something is only tasked to do one thing and one thing alone and you must follow those guidelines. It was business. It was business. It all had to do at the time with senior officers, their budgets. Major case management is a system that came into practice in the 1980s and 90s, centralizing and standardizing police investigations into major crimes. Vilnev says

that this resulted in a heavy reliance on databases and statistical information, as opposed to the more hands-on, collaborative approach that police used in the past. When I first arrived there, any homicide, any strange death, we all did as a detachment. It was all hands on deck. Basically, we all reached into our bags of who we could talk to to find out what was happening in town and what had happened. I don't get the sense that Villeneuve has an axe to grind here. We had no real information. During this time...

The Brown case seems important to him, close to his heart, and it's clear he's been holding this information he thinks can help for a long time. And he hasn't yet told me what could be the most important thing he has. During this time, there was a call that had come in, and the telecoms took the call. And the gentleman was talking about a murder. He was talking about all kinds of information to her. And the guy hung up. He was paranoid. But being in a good OCC, she basically clipped that part of it and kept it.

On tape? On tape, because it was something of interest. It was early morning when she got the call. So it would have been early morning, Friday morning? Correct. It would have been early morning, Friday. Not even the Brown family knew Carrie was missing early Friday morning. She wasn't reported missing until later on Friday afternoon.

That's when the posters started going up, according to everyone I've spoken to. Carrie's body wasn't discovered until Saturday at midday, so this call talking about a murder came in after she disappeared, before she was known to be missing, and over 24 hours before it was known that she was murdered. So she followed up as much as she could, she documented everything, she kept the tape, and there wasn't much more she can do. She was a civilian, a civilian OCC. A civilian operator working at the RCMP's Operational Communications Centre, or OCC. Once Carrie was found, Villeneuve says, the phone operator connected her murder to the phone call she received

and went into the RCMP HQ. That Saturday was her day off, but she knew the information she had could be important. They found a body, and that's when she came into the office. She grabbed the tape, she grabbed the file, she went to John Toast and Dennis, and she said, you've got to listen to this, I taped it. Jean-Marc Villeneuve says he overheard an argument between John Toast and Dennis Heald about the call near his desk at the Thompson detachment at that time. Do you recall seeing John Toast and Dennis Heald at the time arguing? Yes.

And it was related to that phone call? It was related to that phone call. Okay, at that time. But you may not have understood all the details of what you were hearing. I didn't understand all the details because I wasn't privileged to it. Afterwards, as details became filled in by his conversations with the phone operator, he says he realized what that conversation was about. They didn't want to hear about it. They didn't want to know about it. I asked Vilnev if he can put me in touch with this telecoms operator. Maybe she knows more. Maybe she still has a tape of the call, the voice. But according to Vilnev, she may have moved east, perhaps working for RCMP again,

which could make it difficult for her to speak out. To your knowledge, no other calls that came in? Just that one call? I don't know if there was ever anything else that came in, because everything was streamlined towards major case management. So we knew nothing about anything happening. So that is basically what I remember of that. But the call's voice would identify the person. But you couldn't trace the call at the time?

You could not trace the call at the time. Interesting. What is it that's making you talk about this stuff in this way now? I've been talking about it for the last 30 years. People are afraid of the RCMP. People have been wanting to talk about it for decades. Nobody listens. Number one, nobody believes it.

The RCMP couldn't be that bad. How much to believe Villeneuve. I've rarely met the officer, even a retired officer, who would speak this candidly about an investigation. I asked Villeneuve if he had any official problems with the RCMP, and he sent me documents showing a dispute over the handling of an informant. An internal RCMP investigation was conducted, charging Villeneuve with disobeying an order, but the case was eventually dropped and Villeneuve returned to work, but retired a few

years later due to health issues. I can't imagine why a phone call like the one he described from someone who may have known about a murder would be ignored by the officers investigating Carrie Brown's case. The only way to know for sure is to speak to the officers themselves. Of the two original lead investigators, I'll try John Toast. We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga, capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music, and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today. This brand new series, created by Visit Mississauga, celebrates a city 50 years in the making,

paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse, and dynamic third largest city. Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, to learn more. Available now on CBZ Listen. Oh, that coffee smells good. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? Whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee.

Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with mortgage payments on their minds. If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank. The earlier they understand your situation, the more options and relief measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. John Toast, as far as I know, is now doing, what are they called?

Those tests, lie detector tests, that's what he's doing now. Oh, he's a polygraph. Yeah, he's a polygraph. He's retired. Polygrapher. Polygraph, John Toast speaking. Hey, John, it's Dave Ridgen calling. Sorry I didn't get your call there.

Yeah, no, no problem. Constable Jana Amaro declined to put me in touch with the original investigators on Carrie's case, but I was able to get in touch with John Toast, and eventually we connect for an interview. So you're still working for RCMP, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're in the polygraph department? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is my 17th year in polygraph, but all my work has been,

it's been between plain clothes and uniform. But when Terry Adams was murdered, I was on the Thompson General Investigation Section, so I looked after street-level drugs, major crime, that sort of stuff taking place inside the city. By the time I got there, by the time that thing happened, I had 12 years experience. Okay.

Before getting to the phone call received around the time that Carrie disappeared, I want to get a sense of what Toast might remember about the case and perhaps answer some of the other questions that have been percolating. And so what do you remember about the case? In terms of what I do recall, obviously right off the top is, you know, just the horrific nature of it. I was the first member that went out to the scene that day. I was working that afternoon. And we received a call that a girl's body had been found and appeared to be a murder victim.

And we knew, of course, Carrie Ann was missing. So I went directly out there. I spent most of my time pretty much with her body until more people arrived. I knew from the moment that Kirian's body was discovered, we knew that that was going to be a complex investigation. She'd been missing for some time. We're dealing with that type of a crime scene. When you were at the scene and you analyzed these pieces of evidence in situ, were you able to make a determination as to how many people

took part in the murder of Carrie? No, no I wasn't. That's a fair question. No, all I knew, quite frankly, is that we had a young girl that had been horribly budgeted. We had a body and we were going to be doing an act of homicide investigation. But with regards to observations at the scene regarding how many

people could have involved or whatever, no, there was nothing at the scene that indicated to me whether it was one person or more. At least my involvement with the scene didn't tell me that. Are you able to tell me anything about the evidence you found at the scene? Really, no. At the scene, again, the way we process crime scenes is I wasn't involved in the collection of evidence. So I wasn't involved in seizing of exhibits or evidence, anything along that line. Quite frankly, my focus was directed, again,

to make sure that nobody was contaminating the immediate crime scene, and that was where Buddy was. Okay, that led me to another question. So I've interviewed two people, both who say they saw police walking all over the scene and trampling evidence and things like that. Has there been any thought in your mind that there was some evidence contamination? Well, I mean, let's face it, in terms of dealing with an investigation, you can always look back and wonder, but there's been a contamination.

But by the same token, I think a person's also got to look at it in terms of, we were dealing with a pretty big crime scene. If you looked at where the areas were in terms of tracks, where the air mattress was, branches, that sort of stuff, we're dealing, we're outside of the city limits. We're dealing with an area that's basically wilderness. And one of the things you've got right away is you begin to wonder, well, what is crime scene? What isn't? So really to have processed any type of crime scene, maybe without some degree of contamination,

I'm going to suggest to you probably may have been impossible. But as far as anybody being careless or trampling evidence or whatever, I can't speak to that. And if I'd seen anybody that was basically contaminating or destroying evidence, I would have said something at the time. Was it ever confirmed that the mattress and the floor mat and the vehicle trying to get out using them was connected to the murder? Was it ever a question? We were aware as to what was at the scene,

but whether we can conclusively state that those articles, the air mattress and that sort of stuff related to the murder, I can't say with certainty right now. I'm not so sure I could even have stated back then. Okay, that's fair enough. I asked Toast to explain to me how the investigation into Kerry's murder was divided up with the other RCMP investigator, Dennis Heald. Dennis was in charge of the GI section at the time, and I was working along with him. He was responsible for exhibits. He came from a science background,

and they thought that would be particularly beneficial. So for the most part, a lot of the time, that put me in the spot as lead investigator. And then once he was able to devote more time to it, he and I worked very closely on it. We began to investigate, of course, and then we went where the evidence led us at the time. Where did the evidence lead you? Well, again, it's well known that it identified a suspect that we wound up charging and taking to court and who was later discharged after a preliminary hearing.

And why do you think Judge Newcomb threw the case out? There's a difference between, of course, a discharged hearing and an acquittal. And Pat Sumner was not acquitted. A court never determined that he has committed the offense. In other words, he was not found not guilty. We never got to that phase. They just said that we didn't have enough evidence

to proceed to trial at that point. They're saying, well, go back to the investigative phase. We need to gather more evidence. And again, that's basically the way it's sat ever since. Was Patrick excluded on basis of DNA? I don't know. My involvement ended when I left Thompson, and that would have been in 1988.

I transferred out of there in July of 1988. So at that point, I think all DNA work was done after I'd left. Can you tell me anything about Sean Simmons as a witness? Yeah, I can. We spent quite a bit of time with Sean Simmons and another young fellow by the name of Larry Leapart. And by the time we were finished, of course, we believed that they were witnesses, incredible witnesses. Is it fair to say that Sean and Larry's testimony is what was the main focus that led you to Patrick Sumner? You know, I think it's fair to say that the information that we got from Sean Simmons and Larry Leepard certainly pointed us in that direction, of course. I mean, if you've spoken to Sean Simmons, he was a sharp young

fella. I was impressed with him at the time. I just was. Okay. Okay. There was some focus on a green car and a white van. And that comes from Sean and Larry's testimony of seeing these cars coming toward them and turning toward town that night. The focus on the green car turned into a kind of a goldish color car. The white van, was it ever really focused on? There was interest in the white van. I think there were inquiries originally. I do believe there was a white van located, may have been checked or whatever.

Beyond that, I really can't comment because I can't specifically recollect, but I know there was information regarding the white van and also the vehicle. Of course, we later seized, but I really can't be much more specific in that regard. So you can't remember any sort of success in locating a white van of that nature then at that time? I know we did our best to run that lead down. It wasn't like we just said, well, we're going to concentrate on one vehicle. Do you remember how many green cars there were like that in the area at the time?

Well, it wasn't so much that it was a green car, because if that was the only description we'd have had, we wouldn't have been able to do anything with it. What I do recall when the vehicle was described is that Pat Sumner's vehicle at that time was considered to be, shall we say, a rather distinctive vehicle. Particularly in that city, I think it was maybe the only vehicle of its type at that point. So we had a rather accurate description of it. So it wasn't just a matter of whether it was

a green car. The color itself was kind of somewhere between green and brown. It tended to be sort of a more tan. And I can see where maybe it could be described as green. It wasn't too far off. Okay. Okay. I had a couple of people tell me about a phone call that came in after Carrie disappeared, and on the phone call... Then I zero in on the mysterious phone call where the civilian operator heard someone say something about a murder. So I need to ask you, do you remember anything about a phone call coming in

after Carrie went missing with that description? No, I don't. I recall no such thing. I really don't. Had we heard that, we would have followed up on it. Okay, so to your recollection at the time, there was no phone call or no follow-up on a phone call like that? No, absolutely. I don't recall ever being advised of it. I can tell you I didn't follow up on it. But I can certainly tell you if we had heard of anything along that line, that we certainly would have. I'm aware of something years later I heard of something

along that line, but no. And where did you hear about it years later? Just basically a little bit of social media. I don't want to comment much beyond that, but I was aware that there were comments being made or whatever. As for Villeneuve's view that they essentially swept the call under the rug, Toast says they did no such thing. Had we heard that, obviously we would have vigorously followed up on it at the time. So we've got that information from someone who worked as an RCMP officer in Thompson, whose name was Jean-Marc Villeneuve, who says he knew you.

Did you know Jean-Marc? Yeah, no, I'm familiar with him. I didn't know him well. There was a lot of people stationed up at Thompson at the time. He was a uniformed investigator. Beyond that, no, I had very little to do with him, and he didn't play an active role in this investigation, at least at the time that I was involved with them.

Toast denies any knowledge of a call at the time. Could Jean-Marc Villeneuve be somehow mistaken? Okay, what would you say the credibility of Jean-Marc is? I don't want to comment on that, but I would seriously urge you to consider your sources. You've got an investigative background, so I'm going to leave it at that, but I think you just might want to take a look at the individual before you evaluate any information that you're getting. I set Villeneuve and that mysterious

call aside for now, and move on to asking Toast about the hairs found in Sumner's car. The Crown witness that testified in the hearing testified that there were a number of hairs that were removed from the vehicle that were consistent with Carrie Ann Brown, with her hair. That was what his evidence was. A lot of people have spoken sensible reliability of hair and fiber evidence back when it depended strictly on microscopic comparison. But I do remember we did present that evidence. Hair and fiber analysis, just like DNA study,

has come a long way in the forensic field since the mid-1980s. And one would think, as Bob Urbanovsky suggested, that the improvements in forensic study areas could be applied to any evidence still existing from Carey's case. somebody had said that there were two black hairs found in the body bag with Carrie. Is that something that you recall? I don't know if there were two. I believe it was one. I can't say with certainty it was two, but there was a hair found. It wasn't in the body bag either. It was found on a sheet that we shrouded her body in prior to removing her from the scene. Now, we obtained that sheet from the hospital, and it later was found to contain a hair.

Okay, so the hospital sheet would have been a clean sheet, do you think? Oh, yeah, it was. And I guess I'll take responsibility for that in terms of some training I'd received, it was suggested that the best method of making sure that we preserve trace evidence on a body, a corpse like that, would be to obtain a clean sheet from a hospital, put it down, put the body in the sheet, and put it in a body bag or whatever. And that's what I asked to be done, and that's what we did.

Now, it turns out, of course, that there was a hair, and in hindsight, I realize I regret the decision because we don't know if the hair relates to the crime, whether the hair could be a transfer hair from someone if the hair relates to the crime, whether the hair could be a transferred hair from someone that was perhaps working at the hospital laundry or whatever, but there was a hair. Okay. Is the supposition then that the black hair was part of the crime scene? Well, I wouldn't say it's a supposition, but we did have to deal with the fact that

there was a hair found in that sheet, and I can't say with certainty to this day. It doesn't relate to the crime scene, or it could have been in the sheet when it was transported to the crime scene to wrap the body. Were there other suspects in the case? I can tell you with clear conscience that any time we heard anyone could have been involved in any capacity in that murder, witness, suspect, or whatever, we followed up on that. I can't tell you right now, or quite frankly, maybe won't tell you, number of suspects, other people, or whatever,

but I can tell you any time we received information that someone else could have been involved in any way in that murder, we followed up on that. Sean Simmons and Marilyn, his mother, both claimed to me that Sumner himself and his family members at various times were following them around town very closely in an aggressive manner.

Did you ever hear, after this, after Kerry was murdered, did you ever hear about any kind of threats from Sumner family to others, such as Simmons? No, I don't. I think given my role and responsibility at the time, I think I would have known that if I was there when it did occur. Not

to say it didn't happen, but I don't recall having any personal knowledge or involvement in anything along that line. But after Sumner was discharged, what did you continue to look into the case personally or how did that work? I remained with it for quite some time. That was put us into 87 and I didn't leave until 1988. 1988, January of 88 for the last six months, I did go back in charge of a uniform watch, which removed me from that investigation. But I can promise you right now, I promise Trevor or anybody else, yeah, we did. If anything came up that was new at all, we followed it up. And, you know, it's unfortunate because now and again, you know, there's always suggestions or whatever, well, you know, tunnel vision fixating on a suspect. I can promise you right now as, you know, I guess the primary investigator in that case,

we would have gone wherever that evidence led us. We never, ever would have been satisfied saying, well, we have a theory and we'll disregard all others. We kept all theories on the table and we constantly went wherever the evidence pointed us. There's a lot of rumors, lots of fingers pointing, lots of, I know this happened, he must have done it. And, you know, that's inherent with a town that size, though, too, because to say that place went into a state of panic wouldn't really be an understatement at the time. With panic comes emotion and tips and rumors, and it was tough to manage in the beginning because you don't want to say you're going to exclude anything or ignore anything.

But the sad part of it is you can get sidetracked with rumors and you end no gossip, that sort of thing. And occasionally that may have happened. And, you know, I won't get specific who, but there's people that maybe have tried to insert themselves and they're claiming they have knowledge that really maybe they don't have. And if so, I don't know where they. So if I was standing in front of Trevor and his dad today, tomorrow, whenever, if they wanted to tear a strip off me, criticize me, because I know they're critical of the investigation, and I want you to know right now, they have every reason to be. Not because I believe we did anything wrong,

not because I believe we mishandled anything, but they didn't get the closure they deserve. And it's only natural they're going to be angry about that. And I want you to understand, and they're always going to grieve the loss of Carrie Ann. I feel terrible for the Brown family. But by the same token, we don't owe anybody apologies for what we did. We did the best we did with what we had at the time. And we operated in good faith.

There were a lot of people that believed we were on solid footing to put that into court, charge Pat Sumner for the murder of Carrie Ann Brown. I believe there is someone that knows, at least one person. I really do. I think there is someone that can tell us what did take place that night. And I just hope that one day we're able to gather that sort of information to give the family what they need, because it's long overdue. It's apparent that Toast still feels they arrested the right man in Patrick Sumner, but just couldn't gather enough evidence to take him all the way to trial and beyond. But that phone call still plays on my mind.

Toast says that if such a call came in, it would have been followed up on, so did the call happen or not? To find out, I'll need to speak to the operator who Villeneuve says took the call. He sent her some Facebook messages, but didn't receive a response. An old phone number that I found for her doesn't work either. Eighth floor, Tuesday, Taj. But there may be a different way to hear from her. Okay, suite 880, APTN, Aboriginal People's Television Network. Looking for Kenneth Jackson. Journalist Kenneth Jackson worked briefly on the Kerry Brown case in 2013, and I'm hoping to pick his brain about it a bit.

He had only undertaken a couple of formal interviews for it, and he didn't have the resources to continue the story. But there's also another reason I suspect why the story never happened, related to one of Ken's interviews, the one he conducted with the civilian phone operator. Hi, looking for Kenneth Jackson. Okay, sure, and what's your name? David.

APTN, the Aboriginal People's Television Network, is a national Canadian broadcaster of news and stories by, for, and about Indigenous peoples. The Ottawa Bureau is located in a suite of corridors and big windowed offices converted into studio spaces, housing about 10 employees close to Parliament Hill. Hey, dude. Kenneth, how are you? Good, how are you?

Nice to see you. You too, come on in. Jackson seems too young and ambitiously energetic to have a head of grey hair hiding under his baseball cap. He's one of several award-winning journalists at APTN and enjoys getting in front of people to draw out information. So this is the whole Ottawa Bureau right here? We settle into an office and close the door. So tell me a little bit about yourself and how you got into APTN. Well I've been working at the Ottawa Sun here in Ottawa. A tabloid paper there is a crime reported for three years or so

covering murders. Go to doors, pick get a photo, hour after a kid died, getting people to talk. Eventually you always do. After a few years reporting crime for the Sun in Ottawa, Ken decided to strike out on his own and eventually found his way to APTN. And I've been here for almost five years now. In 2013, early in his tenure at APTN, Ken came across the Carrie Ann Brown case. Well, I think what happened is I saw this RCMP officer, former RCMP officer, chatting on Twitter a lot, and he seemed pretty vocal. So I followed him, figured, you know, maybe he knows something about anything. Didn't know. I just thought he could be a good contact. The story already sounds familiar, and so is the name of the former RCMP officer,

Jean-Marc Villeneuve. So I started talking to him and he started talking about this murder up in Manitoba and he said it was a white girl and it's been unsolved for a long time and right away I'm like I work for APTN so like it's obviously it's a murder and it's important but my job is that there has to be some sort of indigenous angle to it, right? Like, that's in our policy. So I was like, I listened to him and we chatted through email quite a bit. And then he started to say, it's my story and this other person.

And this other person was a civilian member of the RCMP. And I'm like, okay, well, I'll chat with this person and see what they have to say. And it took a while to get that person on the phone. After some back and forth, Ken was able to connect with the civilian telecoms operator who received the suspicious call before it was known that Carrie was even missing. She goes, he sounded scared. He didn't want to be recorded. He didn't want to give any information, but he knew about this murder before anyone else. And she didn't have a call display. He wouldn't give a number, but surely there was other means of tracking down that phone

call and who made it and where it was placed and whatnot. None of that happened. And from what I understand, she used the term tunnel vision. The investigators had tunnel vision and they had a suspect in mind. I'm used to hearing, and so was anyone else, that they treat Indigenous cases differently and they've, oh, they ran away or she was in the sex trade, she's just a dirty hooker and she deserved it, or whatever. That's the frame of mind that people have grown up with.

But this was a little white girl. And they, so I was like, well, if they're going to do it, this little white girl, who it's a vicious thing that happened to her, then I think there's somehow an angle I can use at APTN, even though she's not Indigenous, to show this is a problem in that area at the time. Either way, when she recounted the call to me she remembered it like it was yesterday i think in my emails my notes i used chilling to describe how she responded to it because in my mind i was trying

to do this for our investigate show which is like a 23 minute tv show so i was trying to get her on camera because i remember thinking my thought my feelings of it and thinking holy shit I need to get her on camera because you she's she's solid she's like one of those contacts you saw it you know what would be great is that you just played it for if you played the beginning and say this is it and then it's like I know get it you sort of intro it and then I can just get it let me go get my laptop yeah watch it for all these years I didn't hit record or something like that. I didn't do it properly.

I've never listened to it since. So when was this interview recorded? Uh, well it says June 12, 2013. June 12, 2013? A recording that has sat dormant for five years. We'd found the recording, Ken's interview with the telecoms operator. Hi, it's Ken Jackson. How are you? After some pleasantries and conversation, they begin to discuss the Brown case,

and it quickly becomes apparent that she needs some convincing to speak to the media. where I can protect your identity and your livelihood and your future. Villeneuve shared with me his Facebook chats with the telecoms operator over this time period in 2013. They seemed to show someone who was ready and willing to help, but justifiably concerned over the repercussions that speaking out might have for her family. Shortly after these conversations began, the operator's husband was transferred to another province and she was hoping to find a job there, possibly working once again for the RCMP. I give you my word that nothing is going to be printed or broadcast without you knowing and without your permission basically.

In 2013, she decided not to go on the record with her story with APTN. Okay. All right, I'll be in touch. I gave someone my word. I didn't realize that I had to work so hard to get her to open up. I had forgotten about that. We both have extremely mixed emotions about the phone call we've just heard. On the one hand, it's clear that she is a credible witness, one whose information could positively change the trajectory of this investigation.

On the other hand, it's clear that her interview with Ken can't be published. And that's why I can't play it for you here. A re-approach to her is important, but it's so important that you did that initial work, even though it never went to air. The stuff that you gathered was important, and that's why I'm here, basically. Because he had made the original connection, Ken has tried to reach out to the operator

over Facebook on my behalf, but no reply yet. Maybe she is willing to... I know it weighs on her. I need to get in touch with this operator. I'm hoping that we'll hear from her, but in the meantime, I need to look into Vilna's tip about the man known as Eagle and the two brothers. Okay, so let's have a look at these Facebook posts. Hey, Dad?

What? Got to get on that TV for a few minutes if that's all right. I'm at Trevor's place, and he's about to call up some Facebook messages on his television screen. He contacted one of the two brothers with the van, the ones that Vilnev mentioned. Got to get into my Facebook here. Bear with me. Back in 2014, after Trevor first heard about Villeneuve's information, he reached out to one of the brothers himself.

Let's go find our message just here. You want to keep an eye on the list there, Dave? As I scroll down here? Yep. Let me know when you spot his name, in case I missed it. There he is. April 19, 2014, at 1.31, you wrote this message. Long time without speaking.

I just wanted to ask you if you or anyone in your family were ever interviewed by the RCMP regarding Carrie's homicide. Please forgive me for my abruptness, but I'm just trying to make sense of what I'm hearing right now. Please drop me a line when you can. Much appreciated, Trevor. He responds a short time later. Fifteen years ago, yes, they took all her blood. They took mine, but that was fifteen years ago. What's the problem now?

I meant to say, yes, they took my blood, but why are you going to answer me back? What's going on? It looks as though Trevor didn't realize that the fellow he was writing to was replying to him. The brother wrote a number of messages messages becoming increasingly upset with Trevor's silence after broaching such a sensitive topic. Maybe you get the story straight before you think now what you're talking about. And when I lived in the PA, the RCMP came and took my blood 15 years ago.

You better watch what you're trying to say and make sure you have the right story before I try. And that's not right, you asking me something I have no clue. You tell me to drop a line and then don't answer. Trevor didn't attempt to pick up the conversation again until over two years later, in May 2016. Hey, sorry I missed all of your messages. I'm not sure why I did not see them. Trevor tries to re-engage but doesn't have much luck. And then he says, 19th of May at 3.30, anybody that goes to jail will always get their blood put onto the DNA bank to check it anyway.

Why are you asking me something I don't know about when you're asking the wrong people? The police stopped me in the street, London, in the PA, Manitoba, and they requested my blood, so I gave them my blood. This was 15 years ago. So they asked him, he says he gave... He was living on London Street. I know that street in the PA. The messages read as frustrated and angry.

He closes with... Listen, I had enough of you. Leave me the fuck alone and go find S.E. Someone else. Someone else. One else. Someone else to bug. That's the last. That's it.

Wow. According to the brothers' messages to Trevor, police collected his DNA, but it isn't clear to me if this was part of the investigation into Carrie's murder or for something else. I hope if anyone listening knows how I can talk to him, his brother or friend who goes by the name Eagle,

they'll let me know. I'd also like retired RCMP member Donnie Fisher to call me back. Did he also see an air mattress in their van? And was it red and blue like the one found near Carrie's body? My interviews, outside of those with police, introduce scenarios that lead away from Patrick Sumner. Other vehicles, other people, circumstantial evidence, but police old and new still believe Sumner knows something. And none of the scenarios fully discount Sumner in my own mind.

He still could have been there, and we know that there were at least two perpetrators, maybe more. Was the mysterious phone call a potential tip from someone who was there and participated in Carrie's murder? John Toast says he knows nothing about it. I have to talk to the person who took the call, convince her to come on record, if I can find her. And there are many other tips that have come in over the years. Have the police followed up on them? I know for a fact that there's at least one tip they haven't looked into.

A name written on a scrap of paper and slid across a table in a bar to Jim Brown. You have been listening to Episode 6, The Call. Visit cbc.ca slash sks to learn more about the Cary Brown case. Want a place to discuss episodes with others and discover exclusive content? Join our new Facebook group and follow us on Twitter at SKSCBC.

Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kemp, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Special thanks to Ken Jackson and the team at APTN. Original music by David Fetterman. Our theme song is Thompson Girl by the Tragically Hip. Thompson Girl.

Thompson Girl. Thompson Girl. Thompson Girl. Tom Sanger Secret Life of Canada, an unconventional history podcast that mixes Canada's past and pop culture. It's weird, it's quirky, and it peeks into the corners of Canada's hidden history. Subscribe wherever you get Someone Knows Something or to cbc.ca slash podcasts.