Someone Knows Something - S5 Episode 7: Luella

Episode Date: November 5, 2018

A woman writes a name on a scrap of paper and hands it to Jim Brown. Is this the tip he's been waiting for? For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/someone-knows-something-season-5-kerrie-brown-transcripts-listen-1.4850662

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Listener discretion is advised. You are listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. In Season 5, David Ridgen travels north to Thompson, Manitoba to investigate the 1986 murder of Carrie Brown. This is Episode 7, Luella. Maybe you want to sit next to your dad This is Episode 7, Luella. in the picture just friends? Yeah, that's my little carry-down by the TV. Most of the others, I don't know. We sat down to look at some grainy, one-use camera photos from the party on October 16, 1986. I got them from Doug Crocus, who had to dig them out of storage.

Six photo remainders of the night Carrie disappeared, that have never been published and that Jim and Trevor have never seen. This was one of those sort of disposable cameras that you can get, and they passed it around. I'm going to grab my magnifier, Dave. Carrie's sitting down at the back of a finished basement room on the floor in front of a TV that's turned off. I count 14 others in the room with her. Nicole, Rhonda, Grimace, Doug, and all the rest who police say were looked into.

Looks like everybody's having a good time. Yeah, that's her. That's definitely Carrie. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, it looks like her little pantsuit underneath there. Is she wearing the jacket or no? No. This is the picture she's not in and everyone's looking at. And then she's back in the picture down here again. Same people, same outfits?

Laughing, same people, same outfits. I believe Carrie is taking this particular shot. Everyone clowning for her at the camera. Nobody appearing upset or out of place. Carrie's framing her angle. What was going through her mind and the others in the room at the time? I can see, when I look at a picture that is her, it's obviously her, but then I sometimes see her in other people. Isn't that weird?

And so I'd want to see her everywhere, and I would see her everywhere in other people. The photo album is closed. The pictures will never be unseen, and their effect shows plainly on Jim and Trevor's ashen faces. All right, I got a letter in the mail today from the Justice Department. Adding to the feeling, in the ongoing attempt to replace the autopsy report the Browns originally received but that Trevor then inadvertently lost, it's just been learned that the RCMP has asked the medical examiner's office not to release it to the Brown family again. The RCMP has told the office of the chief medical examiner

you are not to release any documents from that file to anyone in the public, including us. I read this and I'm like, oh, what a kick in the gut. Yeah, I wouldn't despair yet. Trevor and Jim have retained a lawyer from the firm Hill, Sikalski, Walsh & Olson who offered to do the work pro bono to argue for the autopsy report's release. It's a rock-bottom start to the day. But then Jim stirs. He remembers a story he'd been meaning to tell me about a tip he got recently while drinking at a local Thompson bar. So tell me what happened.

Well, I started out over at the hub and I walked over to the Thompson Inn. And I was sitting by myself. She happened to come in. Who did? This girl. I don't know what her name is. I knew that I've had a beer with her before, but I don't know what her name was. Me, I don't remember names at all. But anyway, she said, how are you doing? How are you feeling?

And I said, well, you know, like I said before, I don't sleep at night at all. I'm over this thing with my daughter and she mentioned the name. She said maybe this will help you and I said I won't remember that name. Could you get a pen and paper and mark the name on a piece of paper? What did she mean by maybe this will help you? Maybe this will help me concerning Kerry. We had a beer and I put it in my pocket. Didn't make no big concern about it or anything. And when I come home, put my glasses on and looked at it,

the name is in that envelope. The same name she wrote on there, the same paper, everything is in that envelope. And what did she tell you? She didn't tell me anything, just said, maybe this will help you. And I brought it home and told Trevor the next morning. And went from there, he got a hold of Jenna in Winnipeg, and I told her the story. Jim hands me the small rip of paper he was given.

On it, two words. Frederick Spence. A name. Jim told RCMP investigator Janet Amaro about the tip, but it's unclear to him if anything was followed up. I asked Jim if he can try to talk to the woman from the bar again to get her name. I'll certainly get her name next time I bump into her uptown. I think she lives in town here, actually.

Trevor and Jim have received tips from friends and strangers alike, some of them based on rumor and ignorance, but we all agree that this one has a ring and a feel to it that makes me want to follow it up immediately. It turns out we don't have long to wait. Jim soon sees the woman again in town and asks her name, Luella. Hello, is that Luella? This is Mr. Brown. How are you doing? My friend is here that I was telling you about. He wouldn't mind talking to you if you didn't mind.

I'm just going to see Luella, who I finally got in touch with via Jim Brown. I'm just pulling in on this building now. It looks like townhouses in a row. Hi there. Hi. How are you? I'm okay. Luella's wearing a pink and white print top and white pants, and she has shoulder-length dark hair

pinned up with a single clip. Thanks for doing this. And Jim had told me that you were talking to him I guess a month ago. Yeah I did. And what was it that made you go to Jim and tell him this? Because um when about the fourth time I talked to him after I met him he uh started telling me about his daughter and he cried and. Then Luella tells me about someone she used to know, a man named Fred Spence. What was the context of the conversation?

Like, what was the... I don't know. We just came out. We were just standing there, and then he just said it. We were drinking at the time, so... I came back and I was at the school. Luella tells me what she heard Fred say in the Cree language. So I came back and Mr. Gosee squealed. Luella tells me what she heard Fred say in the Cree language. What's the direct translation of that?

It said about when we killed that white girl, that white lady or girl. Mr. Gosee squealed, meaning white woman. Luella, over the nearly two decades after she heard Fred make this statement, has made a connection between it and Carrie Brown. Maybe he's talking about her. Did you ever ask Fred about what he was talking about at that time? Never. Now, was he somebody that you knew, have known your whole life, Fred?

I hung around with him for a year or so. And we have a son together. He's 17, but he's passed on now. He got killed over here. Oh, I'm sorry. Last year. Last year. Oh, I'm sorry about that.

Luella and Fred's son, along with another teenager, were killed one late evening in Thompson when a vehicle jumped a sidewalk and ran into them as they were walking. So tell me about Fred. What kind of a person is Fred? He's violent. He's an alcoholic. I think that's why he drinks a lot. Even when he came to my son's funeral, he was drunk. Maybe it bothers him. I don't know who he was involved with, but it sounded like he wasn't alone.

He definitely said when we killed the white girl. So how old is Fred now? I don't know. He's probably about 55, 54. 54, maybe. 54? Okay. Was anyone else present at that conversation? No. I don't remember. I don't think so. Okay.

Well, I know that Jim Brown's very thankful that you came and told him this. I mean, we don't know what it means, if it means anything. Yeah, I know. That's what I was wondering, too. Yeah, I know, and that's what I was wondering too, if it means anything, because that's all he said. I didn't ask, I just looked at him and I'm like, I had no idea what he was talking about because I was living on the reserve then, and back then I was only like 19, 18, 19.

At the time all this was playing out, Luella and Fred Spence were living in Nelson House, an indigenous community about an hour west of Thompson. Nelson House, not to be confused with Norway House, the community I visited to learn more about Helen Betty Osborne. So you've moved to Thompson from Nelson House? And how long have you been here? 18 years. So I'm interested to talk to Fred, but how do you suggest I try to talk to him?

I don't know. I haven't never talked to Fred since my son was born. So I don't know. I don't know anything about Fred. When you say Fred was violent... Well, he was abusive to his ex-girlfriend, and he did that to me, too. Do you know what people he was hanging around with at that age, when he was in his 20s? I have no idea. Did any police ever talk to you about this? Nope. Never?

No, it was the first time I ever mentioned it when I mentioned it to Mr. Brown. It's definitely something that the family wants me to look into. So how do you want me to proceed on it? Do you want me to say I heard this from somebody? Or do you want me to say I heard from Luella? Or do you want me to say I heard this from somebody? Or do you want me to say I heard from Luella? Or do you want me to say I want to know if you, just without mentioning anything, like what's the best way to proceed, do you think? And if you don't have any ideas, that's okay too.

Well, yeah, you can put my name, sure, because it was me that said it. And I know what I heard. But I think it's up to Mr. Gosset. And I know what I heard. I came back again, and Mr. Gossi is cool. I wish I could go to Nelson House and ask him questions, but I don't have a vehicle. I could take you there.

Really? Is that something that would be, like, the right thing to do, though? I don't know how he would react to it, though. He could probably try to figure a way to do it. But I don't want to put you in any kind of a situation where you feel like it's a dangerous situation for you. But we can think about it. I'm struck by Luella's quiet composure as she relates her story about Fred.

We decide to reconvene again soon. I think it's important to note that none of this means anything or is probative of anything. But it's definitely very interesting to me. And police have never spoken to her before. So we'll try to figure out what to do with Nelson House. I head to the Browns' place to tell them what happened here with Luella. For sure. Luella said that she might want to go and talk to him.

In person. In person. Very credible, very brave on the first meeting. Right. And she stood up and said what she knew. The most respect I can ever give anybody is to tell me what they know. Right. Check, check, check, check, check.

Hello. Hello. I'm just heading out to Nelson House. Just on my own here. It's just a bouncy road. Pretty much going due west at this point. I'm going to try to talk to Fred Spence. All you can do is ask. and see what the answers are. But I hope one way or the other

there's an answer here. I'll be meeting with Carol Kabliski, who's offered to help me speak to Fred. Carol actually has, from time to time, Fred Spence do work for her at her house, and today is one of those days. People in the North wear many hats, and Carol's been a heavy equipment operator, a health care aide, and does catering on the side.

But her main job, which she's been doing for over a decade now, is serving and protecting the community as a First Nations safety officer. Hello. Hello. Hi. Hi, how are you? Good. I'm at the gas station. Okay, I'll see you there right away.

Okay, great. Thanks. Hello. Hi. Just follow me. Okay. Carol arrives at our rendezvous point and guides me along some gravel roads to her house at the end of one of them. There's a collection of boats, ATVs, and other vehicles around the property, and two men working on a massive black boat motor wave as I walk up to Carol, who's waiting beside her new-looking extended cab truck.

There's a logo on the door that says, First Nation Safety Officer. In Manitoba, safety officers are responsible for crime prevention and enforcing banned bylaws, working closely alongside the RCMP. Carol's not on duty though and is wearing denim capri pants and a light white tank top and has highlighted short brown hair. Do you want me to hold up a Freddy? We might as well get him to truck this stuff into your house,

this recording stuff. We're going to set up. You can set it on the window. Okay. I set up my recording equipment and a camera, and Carol returned shortly, without Fred Spence. Okay, we have to wait until 6 o'clock. Oh, okay. Because Bob won't let him go until 6.

Carol hasn't told Fred I'm here, or anything about what questions he might be asked. Since we'll have a couple of hours, and Carol wanted to take me on a tour of the community, we decide to do that while we're waiting. But first, a bit more about Fred Spence. What does somebody like Fred Spence do with his time? What's his life like here? Fred? Well, I know he's a firefighter.

He does contracts in the community. He's a hard worker. He tries to keep himself busy. Ever made any trouble that you know of? Fred? Yeah. No, I've never heard him to make any. He's a humble man.

Like, he's quiet. He does his thing, but he doesn't go around causing trouble. Want to go for a little tour then? Sure. We move our discussion into Carol's truck and start the driving tour. The roads are washboard rough at times, causing vibrations in the recording. We pass an opening in the trees that looks out onto a pristine-looking lake and then continue toward a group of houses.

This area here is Dog Point. It's another little bay area. Doesn't Fred Spence live around here? He used to. Oh, okay. He had a girlfriend over here, has children with another lady here, but he's separated.

And she left him too because of the domestic and the drinking. We pass rows of houses. Some look newer, while others look in disrepair. But all look occupied. So how many people would live in these houses here? 10, 15 to a house. There's an overcrowding. And it's happening all over.

This first nation of 5,000 people has an elders' care home, an alcohol and drug treatment center, and a nursing station. But according to Carol, much of its infrastructure is inadequate. We have one baseball field. Looks like they're playing. The other field there is contaminated. With what? Sewage. Underneath. So they can't use that field. This is the nursing station. It's too small and there's not enough rooms in there.

Especially with what's going on in our community. This is what you call uptown. This is uptown? This is uptown. That's the band office. Right here? Yeah. We pass an empty lot where there's a foundation remaining. And this is where the northern store used to be.

Right over that foundation there. What happened to it? Some kids burnt it down. Northern Store is a corporation that traces its roots back to the Northwest Company and Hudson's Bay Company of the European fur trade in Canada. So the Northern Store is done. They're done. We got them out of here because they were ripping our people off. The prices were too high and the interest rate was too was too high and somebody burned it down someone burnt it

down they tried to come back and get me established but the chief of council said no that's enough we're building our own they basically said all you guys won't succeed and we have it it's a nice store this house needs to be torn down An elder lives there It just sickens me The walls are so soft You can go like this and the walls move In there

And then you have the gangs putting Their name on the houses This one says west side and then you have some on the East side There's gangs here? Oh yeah lots MOB's NS you name it In a east side. There's gangs here? Oh yeah, lots. MOBs, NS, you name it. In a town of 5,000 there's multiple gangs? Yep. And they're territorial.

I see a young teenage boy walking along the roadside with what looks like a brass lamppost. What's this guy got? See people walk around with golf sticks, hockey sticks, and it's a way of protecting themselves because it's so unsafe to walk around in the community. That's what they do, young people, they walk around trying to protect themselves. It wasn't like that, it was a safe community, people didn't have to lock their doors, people were always visiting each other, you know, you can go anywhere and have a cup of coffee, a cup of tea, whatever, bannock. Now it's all like trying to survive for yourself. We arrive back at Carol's place.

The tour leaves me with the stark awareness once again that Indigenous peoples of northern Manitoba in communities like Norway and Nelson House are resourceful and resilient in the face of many historical and current wrongs that they face. For Carol, it's every day, and no sooner have we arrived, and she's off again. Okay, I'll go pick him up. Great, thank you.

To pick up Fred Spence. I sit in Carol's living room on a sectional leather couch with my recorder running, waiting for their arrival. There's a small aquarium nearby and the marine blue walls are decorated with stained glass, a large blue model of a ship and various porcelain angels. And then... Dave? Oh, hi.

This is... Hi, Fred, how are you? Nice to see you. I had to go take him from his work. I'm David, nice to see you. Have a seat here. Fred Spence walks in, followed closely by Carol. He's smaller in stature, wearing yellow fireman's overalls and an orange T-shirt, a well-worn Pittsburgh Pirates baseball hat, sunglasses propped on the brim, and has a light mustache.

I shake hands with him and we all sit down. I've been interviewing lots of people. I work for CBC. Here's my card. And actually, Carol was just telling me you were a twin? No, a triplet. Triplet, yeah. One of the only triplets ever in Manitoba or something?

Well, there's another set. All boys. Belinda's. My sister-in-law. She's got triplets too. Oh, okay. Okay. So you, and you just turned 50?

50, yeah. When's your birthday then? February 3rd, 67. Centennial Day. So you're a volunteer fire department guy? Yeah. No, no, I'm not volunteering. He's always done that.

I go out like, make some money. Every summer, eh? Every summer. So are you paid? I get paid, yeah. Oh, okay, because I was volunteering. He's not back in 15 minutes. If he's not back in 15 minutes, he's fired.

Okay, okay. So I've been doing a lot of interviews about a project for CBC. I do podcasts. It's an investigative podcast. And actually, your name came up, and I wanted to talk to you about something. It was a conversation that this person told me about that you had with them 17 years ago. And the person told me it was a disturbing conversation, and I just wanted to see if you remembered it. Can you remember a conversation where you would have disturbed somebody with something you said?

No. So the person said that you said in Cree, when we killed that white girl. White girl? Yeah. I never said that. Do you remember anything about that or saying that kind of thing? No, not even. In Cree it would have been said, this person said. I don't even remember talking to anybody like that.

It was a white girl or a white lady. I don't know what in Cree it would have been, but when we killed this white girl, that's what this person remembers, and it has bothered them. They said, forever, and they said, okay, who was it? And they said it was you that had said this.

You don't remember that conversation? No, I never say that to anybody. You never killed a white girl? No, as if. No, no. We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga, capturing the rich

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A message from the Government of Canada. I think when he got a package through Thompson Horse Stables or somewhere, he gets questioned a long time ago. His name is Brown, a young girl. No. No. Don't know anything about the Brown case, Carrie Ann Brown? No. No.

So the conversation to you, you don't remember it at all? No. Okay. I know it's a weird question, but I had to ask. You know, someone don't remember it at all? Nope. Okay. I know it's a weird question, but I had to ask, you know? Someone tells me that, and I have to ask. Here, I'll show you a picture of this girl. Carrie Ann, I'll show you a picture of Carrie Ann here. I've never seen a picture of her.

Yeah, just to sort of, maybe you've seen the... There she is. That's Carrie Ann there. Carrie Ann. Who's that I see now? Oh, there she is. She was 15. That might be a little younger. I have another one. Let me show you.

This is the one that was most recent to the time she was killed. And they found multiple DNA on her. Is that the same one? Yeah. Did you ever hear anything about that murder? They sent it on a bulletin board. You did? That picture. You've seen this picture?

Yeah, missing. She's missing. Did you ever hear anyone in the community or any of the communities talk about that murder? So they did find DNA on her? They did. Individuals that had contact with her. So she was... Anyway, they had contact with her.

Okay. And they had one individual they pulled in and had a prelim for him and it was thrown out. Not enough evidence. Was it from Thompson? That fellow was from Thompson, yeah. When did that happen? Like what year? That was 30 years ago, 30, 31 years ago. So it was 1986 in October.

Oh, okay. Yeah, so you would have been like 20 in 86? 86. Oh, yeah. 50 years old. Yeah, it must have been about 1920. Did you drive at that time? Did you have your own vehicle? I didn't even have a driver's license.

Wow. Never got one or just don't have one? Never got one. He's a passenger all the time. Or he walks a lot. Oh, really? So you're always driven by someone else? Yeah. Okay, well, I don't have any other questions.

It was just wondering whether you remember that conversation and what the nature of it was if you can remember what that utterance meant when we we killed that white girl or white lady and there was no other context given like the person never asked you about it afterwards so it may be that the person's mistaken misheard if i get any more information about it, I'll let you know. You've got my card there. You can call. Somebody talking about it, I'll give you a call. Yeah.

Has anyone ever asked you about this before? Has anyone ever talked to you about this case before? No. Do you have a contact number or email that I can... If you get a hold of me, I'll get a hold of you. Sure. Okay. Yeah.

Thanks very much. nice to meet you and thanks for your time I wonder about what I've just witnessed as Carol takes Fred back to work but I decide to wait until Carol returns and gives me her opinion before I go too far in my thinking.

And I know when you're drunk, if there's something hitting you, it comes out. Look at the guy, Biddy Osborne there. Look at what happened there. The guy became an alcoholic, and he ended up telling another person, right? Do you think I should continue to talk to him? Yeah, but take it slow with him. I just try to talk with him more as we're going. And I just said to him, so you don't remember anything?

You don't remember this girl? He says, no, I don't. I don't even know who she is I did notice he got a little bit agitated when I asked the question there was a lot of shuffling language you start micro analyzing right away of course they're gonna get defensive nobody wants to admit to murder and then especially after 30 years like he when we're driving, what did he say?

Holy, that's like 30 years ago. I'm like, really? So I'm going to try playing dumb too. Yeah, I saw that he was getting agitated there. I'm surprised he didn't get up and walk out. But I think it's because I was here with him. I just told him when we got into the house that there was someone here to talk to him. But when you think about it, you know what, maybe that's what's been bothering him all this time because

he's been drinking all his life. He just said, don't say anything to anybody about this. Okay, I won't. So I said, I don't want to say anything. I said, if you remember anything or whatever, you know where I live, call me. Yeah. I was watching him too, so I know something's there. For my training anyways,

that's what we pick up. Even at our check stop, we've got to pick up the signs, right? And that's how we know when there's something in the vehicle. When people start getting a little nervous and they start talking too much to you or they try to be a little too friendly to you. So that's when I go, everybody out. So I'm sure enough it's there. Because on the way he says, I wonder who blamed me?

He said also. He said, I wonder who threw my name out there? I said, I don't know. So you're kind of thinking anyways. He said it in Cree, like, that might not have happened. He said that. In other words, I wonder who blamed me or who threw my name there. He was pretty quick. Like, I found him credible, but I didn't find his body language credible. Well, like I said, when you're confronted with something like that, that serious, a person has basically trained themselves to say, or to protect themselves,

they'll say exactly word for word, year after year after year. They know their routine, they know what to say. It just comes up real quick. He's never been asked that before. No. You only can tell when he started fidgeting. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that he stayed on the chair there because you were here. Yeah.

I don't know that he would have hung around too long. Yeah, because if I was out there, he would have walked away from you. He would have walked out. I thank Carol and make my departure I've got to see what Luella thinks of what happened here today I'd like to follow up with Luella after talking to Fred yesterday up in Nelson House I'm not totally convinced he may know anything, but he may.

And I do believe that Luella heard this phrase, and Carol said that Luella wouldn't be making it up. I agree. Hi. Sorry if you tried to text. I didn't charge my phone again. So, thanks for doing this.

I went to Nelson House yesterday. I didn't want to take you. So thanks for doing this. I went to Nelson House yesterday. I didn't want to take you up on the first trip to see Fred because I don't know if it would have been dangerous. It's not dangerous. He'll probably be surprised because I haven't talked to him in like 17 years, I guess. See, I didn't mention you. I didn't mention your name. I just said a person told me that they had a disturbing conversation with you about 17 years ago.

Do you remember anything about that? And he said, no. He said, I don't remember saying that. I didn't do that. He seemed a little bit agitated. I mean, I think I would be agitated if someone was asking me if I killed somebody. But he denied it, basically. I was thinking maybe I could spend a few hours in Nelson's house and maybe I could get the truth out of him that way. Well, certainly I would be willing to take you there.

Do you think that's a memory that somebody would... It'll obviously come back to him. And he said he's never had a driver's license or a car. Yeah, but whoever he was with must never had a driver's license or a car. Do you think it would be something that he could bury and just force himself to forget? Do you think that that's something? I don't think anybody would forget something like that. I doubt it. It will haunt them forever, like the way he drinks.

I'm pretty sure that's why he drinks so much, to hide it. I mean, whatever. Maybe Fred does know more. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he does. I don't know. I know he said that. I know what I heard. It doesn't strike me as something that you would say just out of the blue with nothing, no context. I showed him a picture of Carrie Ann and he said he recognized one of the pictures from a bulletin board, but it was the old picture. It's the picture that's been around a lot. He likely has no

way, like he wouldn't be able to connect that it's you, I don't think, after 17 years. I doubt it. Yeah. Maybe he does because I don't know. I don't know who else he told that to, but I know he blurted out to me. He did have a vehicle back then, a little car. A little red car, I think it was a red car. Didn't have it very long, though. But he didn't have a license, he just had a car. Yeah. I don't know if he had a license, but I know he had a car.

Because I think I asked him if he's ever owned a vehicle, and he said no. Yeah, he did have a car. Okay, well, let's keep looking into it, and we'll see what happens when we go see him together, and then see what happens after that. All right, well, thanks so much. So I plan with Luella to go to Nelson House, and on the day of departure, Trevor decides to come along for the ride.

All right? Yeah I was looking for the ravens. Okay. Luella is waiting for us in her driveway. Hello. Hi. Hi. So you're sure you want to go do this? Um I'm sure but I'm not sure. It's up to you really if you want to go do this? I'm sure, but I'm not sure. It's up to you, really, if you want to go see Fred and ask him this yourself. I'd like to confront him because, you know, it echoes in my head sometimes and it bothered me for so long. I don't know why I didn't say anything before myself. But tell him that his dad, and like I told you, how hurt he is still, and I finally blurted out to him.

All right, well, we can go. I think I'm satisfied that you want to do it. And I'll try to make it as safe as possible. You know people in the reserve, right? Yeah, I know everybody. I wonder how he'll react when I get there. I could just picture him swearing and cursing in Cree, probably. So you have everything? You're ready to go now? Do you want to get anything else?

No. Okay. There's some water here if you want. That's for you. We drive north out of Thompson How you doing back there Trevor? Good Feel good? Don't feel sick back there? No, I'm just checking out the highway Checking out the road ahead Never been up here before So we're just outside Nelson House now.

What do you want to go do? What's the strategy here? Go ask Fred what and why he said that. Okay. You'll see this one spot where the leaves change color. It looks like a million dollar painting. So beautiful. Nice.

Oh, go straight. Oh, straight, sorry. I guess if you see him, you can just get him to come over to the car. Might be even the better way to do it if we roll the window down and just talk to him that way. Yeah, on your side. On my side, yeah. So let's do that so I won't I won't open the door there we cross a washboard road over a causeway and continue through the community turning

as per Luella's instructions this was my house here I like this area because the school is there I wish I just burned that house before I left. Light it up and leave. Then, in the doorway of a house to our right, on the side of a hill, Luella sees a couple of figures standing in a doorway, and one of them is holding a mug. Look, I think that's him right there. Oh, he's in the doorway there.

Yeah, he's in the doorway there. Yeah, he's in the doorway. Yeah, that is him. It looks like he's drinking coffee. Turn around? I continue down the road a short distance and pull over, then turn around, pointing back toward the house, where we can still see Fred standing ahead. Do you want me just to stop and get him to come over?

Yeah, sure. Right here? Right here. Just turn in there. Stop here? No, just turn in right there. Oh, okay. Do you want me just to sit here, or do you want to get out? I think he'll come over to the vehicle.

Yeah, I'll call him over soon. Hello. How are you? Good. Is Fred here? Fred. Spence? Yeah, he's down the way up there. Oh, just wondering if we could chat

from them for a second. Yeah. Fred, remember me? I came to talk to you over at Carol's. How are you? Good. I chatted with you last time about that statement, and Luella, who I think you know...

Luella? Luella? Yeah. She says that she can remember you saying this thing, and I don't know what... No, I'd never say that. Well, when you used to live on Hillside, right? After that weekend, we drank and... I'd never say that. Well, when you used to live on Hillside, right? After that weekend, we drank and...

I'd never say that. We were sitting outside and then you said, you just said it out. You said, um... I can't talk, I can't manage. She's my worst nightmare. Can you get along with her, right? Uh, worst nightmare. Okay.

I'd never say that. I'm not trying to cause any trouble or anything for it but i know what i heard i know what i heard well i'd never say that i said 17 years ago at least you think you could have been mistaken that's what he said luella or oh you broke up long time ago right that's not the point okay oh god don't even bring that up i'd never say that We seem to have reached an impasse with each side remembering their own version It was about 17 years ago and Luella says they had been drinking

She's also the only person so far I've heard this story from, so it's difficult to go further. You can't remember her saying it? You say you never said it? You never had anything to do with Carrie Brown or hurting any white woman? No, no. I'd never say that. I wouldn't say anything for nothing either. We broke up a long time ago. Oh, fuck off with that bullshit.

I know what I heard him say. I'm not trying to get back at him for about anything, but I know what I heard. And I know it came from his mouth. Well, let's call it that, I think. Are you okay if we go? OK, thanks. Thank you.

OK, no problem. OK, I think it's better we go. How the hell do I get out of here now? Well, it's kind of a stalemate. He says he didn't say it. You say you heard him say it. He seems to be convinced he never said it, so it's hard to know. Well, it's sitting with him now.

Can we stop by the graveyard for a few minutes? For sure. Just tell me where it is. We pull up beside a paint-peeled wooden church that looks like it was built many years ago. Beside it, along a poorly maintained dirt road, a graveyard of wooden crosses and plots, some of them fenced in and covered in the personal belongings of their occupants. Luella turns to the spot where her and Fred's son was recently laid to rest. I want to get a fence here and a headstone soon. These are all the hats he used to wear, New York Yankees. What was your son's name?

His name was Broderick. Broderick. 1989 to 2016. Luella stands for a while, overseeing the space, with the wind blowing in her hair. Together, by unseen signal, we move to leave. Thanks very much again, and through your courage and... Bravery.

Bravery, I really respect it, and thanks for telling what you know. That's the best thing that you can do. You're welcome. Maybe something will come of it. Yeah. I hope so. All right, well, thanks very much. Take care, and take care of yourself, too.

Okay. Yeah, you take care, Luella. We'll talk to you soon, dear, okay? Yeah, all right. Be safe, sweetheart. Thanks again for everything, all right? Talk to you soon. Bye. Well, it wasn't as fruitful as I was hoping. Thanks again for everything, all right?

Well, it wasn't as fruitful as I was hoping. But it's done. It's out there, and he knows what she thinks. Trevor and I return to Thompson to talk about what happened with Jim. Like, it's pretty predictable what he's going to say. He's not going to say, yep, I did do say that, I killed somebody. Yeah. You know, I know I don't like putting you on the wrong track on anything or that because it wastes your time and maybe gets you frustrated.

But I just say what people tell me. No, no, I'm not frustrated at all. I'm interested in looking into all these tips. This one seemed pretty good. Luella's very credible. Oh, yeah. I ruminate aloud on my way back to my hotel after leaving Jim and Trevor for the night. On one hand, what Luella says, Fred said to her,

when we killed that white girl or when we killed that white lady has a compelling ring to it, I guess, when you're considering the Brown case. But on the other hand, it may have been completely misconstrued, may have been misheard, and the context may have been completely lost, so that there's nothing whatsoever to do with any murder of anybody, let alone Carrie Ann. Jim's tip from Luella led us down a rabbit hole that may yet have a discernible exit, but how to find it? Both Luella and Fred seem convinced of their memories and their points of view. To me, a tip that can be directly followed up by the parties

involved, Luella meeting Fred and Trevor witnessing, is ideal. It's still unclear if Fred has some knowledge, but that's the way some tips work. They need to be continuously followed to their end. But Carrie's case has brought forward many tips, innuendos, and rumors that haven't been investigated by anyone yet. And there's perhaps someone else that should be looked at. Someone closer to home. Visit cbc.ca slash sks to see previously unreleased photos of Carrie and her friends the night she disappeared. Want a place to discuss episodes with others and discover exclusive content? Join our new Facebook group and follow us on Twitter at SKSCBC. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen.

The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez and produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kemp, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Original music by David Fetterman. Our theme song is Thompson Girl by the Tragically Hip. thing we can she says springtime's coming wait till you see it poking through with them shoots of beauty

it's the end of an animal view weather it's time to end this siege together Thompson girl Thompson girl Thompson girl Someone Knows Something is a CBC podcast.

Another show we think you might like is Other People's Problems. Normally, therapy sessions are totally confidential, but this podcast opens the doors. This is what people sound like when they talk about traumatic births, turbulent marriages, eating disorders, and tough childhoods. Subscribe wherever you get Someone Knows Something or visit cbc.ca slash podcasts.