Someone Knows Something - S5 Episode 8: Other Brother

Episode Date: November 5, 2018

Trevor wasn't Kerrie's only sibling. David takes the investigation closer to home. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/someone-knows-something-season-5-kerrie-brown-transcripts-listen-1.4850662

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Listener discretion is advised. You are listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. In Season 5, David Ridgen travels north to Thompson, Manitoba to investigate the 1986 murder of Carrie Brown. This is Episode 8, Other Brother. You know what? It's in my genes. It's in my family, Dave. Alcoholism. I'm kind of cursed. I think we're all cursed in ways genetically. Like my mom's side, Dave, it's all mental illness.

We have Alzheimer's, we have schizophrenia, we have bipolar, and we have... Autism. Autism. Yep. In our family. It's all on my mom's side. All of it. And then my dad's side, well, we have alcoholism and dysfunctionalism. What's that disease?

I don't know. My dad's dysfunctional. He's used to having you around? Always. Always. Yeah. That's why you came back. To take care of him, right? I did.

I came back to take care of my dad. Because I was really, really saddened by the thought of the cops coming to my door and telling, sorry to inform you, your father's dead. That was the greatest thought in my mind when I was at Winnipeg. And I knew he wasn't doing well because I was calling him periodically. And I knew, I could tell from the sound of his voice that he wasn't doing well. And I said, I'm coming home. And so I came home.

It's clear but mosquito-y outside, and Trevor and I are on another late and so I came home. It's clear but mosquitoey outside, and Trevor and I are on another late-night drive around Thompson. We're retracing again the possible routes Carrie may have taken the night she disappeared. Ian, Carrie and Trevor's half-brother, comes up in conversation. Ian, your brother, was he able to... Ian? I haven't talked to Ian over a year. Yeah, Ian was older. My mom had Ian before she met my dad.

Well, before she married my dad. Yeah, he's not doing well. Ian has severe mental illness. Exactly what? I'm not sure. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia when he was young. But then a senior psychologist, quote-unquote, overrode the guy that diagnosed him with schizophrenia and said he doesn't have schizophrenia, he has something else.

Ian was never properly diagnosed, I don't think, and Ian had a tough life. Well, here in Thompson, Carrie and I went to juniper school, and Ian ended up in what they call special ed. Developmentally challenged people. And some of the people in that classroom were Down syndrome. My brother Ian's off. I know that. I'll tell you that. Ian had sexual proclivities.

What does that mean? He had deviances. My brother Ian. He had sexual deviances towards young girls and stuff. I'll tell you this, Dave. My brother got shipped off to Winnipeg when we were teenagers. When Carrie and I were teenagers. Because of sexual...

Something happened. I don't know what, Dave, and I'll be honest, I don't. Did you ever ask your dad about it? I've talked to my dad about it. He won't talk about it. But my brother got shipped off to Winnipeg because of something that happened in Thompson with a young girl. Before he moved back into the house,

I know for a fact when I was 14, Kerry would have been 13 or 12, Ian got sent away to Winnipeg. Right. And you still don't know why. He had his own place in Highland Towers on Thompson, that place with the wolf on the side. Yep. And something happened in there with a young girl's underwear being found in his apartment. Ian had lived in a local Thompson apartment building when he was about 18, but was evicted, according to Trevor,

because he wasn't keeping his apartment in a livable condition. At some point later, when he was around 19, Ian then went back to living in the house with his mother and Jim, Trevor and Carrie. So was your brother ever treated as a suspect in this case? Not that I'm aware of. Although I will tell you this, my dad became suspicious of my brother years later. Like not long ago, actually, I want to say maybe 10 years ago, my dad asked, you know, my dad talks about my brother and his movements on the night that Carrie died.

And I don't trust my dad's memory, I don't. But my brother worked at the highway inn. So your brother's movements on the night Carrie disappeared, what were they? Well, we don't. But my brother worked at the highway inn. So your brother's movements on the night Carrie disappeared, what were they? Well, we don't know. He should have been at home. He was living in our house. My dad will tell you that he remembers my brother coming in through the basement window of our house.

On that night or morning? I don't know. My dad's memories are wrecked. They're fucked. I'll be honest with you. But my dad remembers my brother bringing muddy footprints inside the house. And my dad asking him, why the hell did you come through the basement window?

He said, I didn't want to wake anybody up. My brother was living in the basement. He had a room in the basement. When your sister disappeared. Right. Okay. Have you ever seen ian be aggressive or have a like a switch that would turn on or off like oh he had an aggressive side he used to hit he used to he lived common law with this woman in winnipeg when i lived in winnipeg and ian lived in winnipeg at the same time he was common law

with a woman for almost 20 years and at at the end, he was knocking her around. And is she still alive? Oh, yeah. Unfortunately, I'm not able to find Ian's ex-girlfriend to get her version of Trevor's recollection. We pass by the stable road entrance and continue our now meandering drive north toward the Thompson Airport.

So Ian, your brother, was he able to drive at the time? I don't think he had a license. How did he get around? Walked. Did he have any friends? Not many. Yeah, so he probably didn't have the ability to mobilize on his own and get out here. No.

Right all the way out this road here. However, I found a different story that contradicts Trevor's memory. Roley Becker. Her brother actually bought a car off me. I remember her brother was just this tiny little unassuming guy that I sort of almost felt bad for. That would be Ian. Yeah. I'm back in Roley Becker's garage.

Roley's sitting at an office desk covered in car parts and paperwork and smoking a cigarette. What kind of car did Ian buy from you? Some big old 67 Meteor. He almost would have had to tie blocks to the gas and break them. When did he buy that from you? Well, obviously before this incident. Oh, before Kerry was murdered? Yeah. So, you know, I remember like Ian would come by,

and I think it was Trevor's little brother would be tagging along with him. And he had come, you know, and Ian had just turned 16 or whatever, so this was his first car. So, you know, and he had come by the shop many a times, kind of looking at different things and whatever. So Kerry actually may have even come by at one time with him. I don't really recall. So Ian apparently did drive, and he had an old muscle car too. Do you know what color that car was?

The Meteor? Hmm. I can't even remember. I think it was a silver blue, but I could be wrong. Was that a straight eight? No, a big V8, big 67 meteor. Did Ian seem different to you as a person? Ian? He was just a little non-assuming guy.

You could tell he'd probably be the kind of guy that had been picked on a lot because he was so little or whatever. So, you know, which is why it went out of my way. I didn't even really want to sell him that car, but he insisted he wanted it, and I probably even did some repairs free of charge because I just felt bad for the little guy. Like I said, when little Ian come around the shop lot, sold him a car,

ripped my heart out when I heard what happened to his sister. And I'm just recollecting things the best that I can. Trevor doesn't seem to have direct knowledge about Ian's car, but Ian apparently drove it without a license and parked it away from the Brown House. It all makes me wonder again about the car seen coming out of the stable road that night. My dad literally told me he thought Ian might have something to do with Carrie's murder.

Years later. Years later. Years later. Does he still talk to you or not? I haven't seen him. Like I said, I haven't seen him in over a year. I haven't talked to him in over a year. He hasn't called our house in over a year. He's, last I know he was in Selkirk, Manitoba.

He's an alcoholic. Drinks every day. Doesn't take medication. He's self-medicated. Self-medicated. Yeah. Most times, as you know, when there's a murder and it's a family member, and there are family members in the house,

they're often treated as suspects right off the bat, even yourself and your dad. The fact that I was so geographically close to Kerry that night is another factor. So you would have been looked at, your dad would have been looked at. It's proper protocol. You have to clear those avenues. You have to clear the closest people to her, yeah. So did you ever get interviewed by the police as a suspect? No.

No. I had my DNA taken in 2001. When I was in treatment. What was your brother Ian's relationship like with Carrie? Uh, tenuous. She didn't trust my brother, I don't think. Carrie didn't trust your brother? I don't think so. Why not? I remember an incident where she freaked out that she thought he was looking at her through her mildly open bedroom door. She was changing.

I remember her freaking out. Why the hell are you looking at me? I'll never forget that. And I went out into the hallway from my, I was sure I was in my bedroom. And I went out into the hallway and I was, what's going on? She closed her door. She slammed her door closed and says, I don't know what's going on. And that's all he said.

And so that's... I don't know what happened with Ian. Did Carrie ever say anything to you that suggested she might have been afraid of Ian? She told her friend she was. Who did she... Nicole. She told Nicole that? She told Nicole she didn't trust Ian.

And maybe somebody else? Yeah, no. Who did she... She told Nicole that? She told Nicole she didn't trust Ian. And... Maybe somebody else? Yeah, no, they're... They were far from close. Carrie's friend Nicole says that Ian was loud, would shout and swear, and that she and Carrie were uncomfortable around him and tended to avoid him.

She also says they were young and didn't understand Ian's diagnosis. Okay, I'm just interested in that. Yeah, no, no, it's relevant. It's relevant, Dave, it is. Our family's far from perfect. And what was Ian's behavior like after Carrie was found dead? That I don't remember. In the aftermath, in the weeks following, was he upset? Well, Ian was indifferent. Indifferent.

I don't think he was capable of the same emotion that the rest of us were. I asked Ian, I kind of last ditch, did you have anything to do with this? At that time, Trevor says Ian denied having anything to do with Carrie's murder. I don't think he did. I don't think he did, Dave. Okay. I know he would have said something. He's a talker. My brother's a talker. He says things when he shouldn't say things.

God Almighty, he would have said something to somebody by now, no question. If I asked your dad about it, what would happen? He would tell you what he thought. Okay, maybe I'll ask him about it. I wanted to talk to you about your son, Ian. We don't even see him or hear from him. Like, he really never accepted me as his dad. He knew I wasn't his dad.

And eventually he said, I'm going to go and find my dad. Trevor and I have found Jim in the kitchen cooking a stew on the stovetop. I gave him money to go on the bus to Ontario if he wanted to go and look for his dad. And he went there, and he went there, and he went to the door. They wouldn't even let him in the door, wouldn't even speak to him.

He wound up staying the summer at my mother's place in Ontario, just helping mow the lawn, do this and that. But eventually he come back here. He said, I guess you are my fucking dad after all. But he's a kind of a little guy that would not keep clean or anything, only way you get his stuff into the laundry is while he's sleeping. Pockets full of cigarette butts that he picked off

the street and that sort of thing. But every time he'd come home, I'd get him fixed up, cleaned up and new clothes and he'd come home I'd get him fixed up, cleaned up, new clothes and he'd be on his way again and I couldn't look after him here because I was afraid of the house burning down, he'd lay on the couch and drink and smoke. And I had to stay awake all night to make sure that the damn house isn't on fire. But no, he was in, isn't unfair but no Ian was the only if he had five bucks in his pocket he'd

decide to go across Canada hitchhiking you know like but that's the way he was yeah it wasn't all bad times or anything I actually spoiled him more than my own two kids bring home tools he loved tools and fool around with that stuff. What was his relationship with Kerry like? He was okay. He was the same with us all. It was just he was himself, and when he'd get out on his own, he wouldn't be in an apartment a couple of months, and he skipped out because windows are broke and fridge is full of dirt and stove and nothing cleaned up and what have you but he was for many

years off and on just a street person and he'd have a tent go and pitch it anywhere and spend the night yeah but he was slow to learn how to talk to start with, so he just kind of felt behind all the time. But, yeah, I would say he had some kind of a disorder of some description. His mother did, and he probably did too. I know it was always a problem at school. I was over there a thousand times. Ian's doing this, he's doing that, he's... What's he doing with all these key handfuls of keys that belong to somebody else?

Was he ever violent or aggressive? No, no. He wasn't a strong person or anything like that, that he could fight. He would stick up for himself a little bit, but he would get bullied more than not. No, he wasn't like a quarrelsome guy at all, no. Do you think that he was ever a suspect in Carrie's murder? No. No? Well, we all took the DNA.

He did, Trevor did, I did, but, I mean, that's just natural to do. But no, there was nobody ever come question him here or took him somewhere else and questioned him or anything. He was not, well in fact that night I believe he was working at the bus depot. He cleaned the washrooms out after the bus left. Oh okay. When they come in and went out, he had the job going in, cleaning that up. And I believe that's what he was doing that night. But he had his own little room in the basement down there.

He had his own privacy. So, Ian, was he ever in trouble with the law or the police? I don't think nothing serious. He stole a car one time, and he wound up out the highway there and went to miss a rabbit or something on the road and rolled the car over and ruined that. That's a stolen car. Could he drive?

He had no license at that time. He did eventually get his license. Do you think Ian had some kind of a disorder? Well, Ian was mentally ill. Don't you remember? I do remember talk of it, yes. And you left something out that I don't know if you don't remember or if you're just not wanting to say it,

but Ian got shipped off to Winnipeg when he was a teenager, Dad, when we were young. You remember that? No. Wow. For what? Well, you would never talk about it, you and Mom. I didn't send them anywhere.

Well you guys did. I mean somebody, and do you remember that incident in Highland Towers with the little girl in the underwear? I don't know. You don't remember that? I know there was something about a car there that he was pissing around working with a car and the little girl come there and there was maybe something said about him touching her or something. Right, this all went on. Your mom had to deal with this. You never talked about it with me and Kerry. You guys were very tight-lipped about it all and why Ian left home, why he wasn't here anymore. You just didn't want to talk about it, you guys. I remember him going to school there. That's all I thought it

was was in school. That's a group home for boys that get into trouble Jim I don't want your stew to burn there sorry I have to keep it well it's okay it's on you did at some point consider Ian might have had something to do with Karen's murder in a strange way you were out of your mind with who did this a few years ago that you considered Ian might have had something to do with it and I confronted him on it. I told him what you what you had said to me about the muddy boots and coming in. So tell me about Ian and the time of Kerry's disappearance. Do you remember how he came home that night? I remember he was working at the bus depot but I heard him come home. I was sitting at the table doing a hockey pool. And he didn't come to the door.

He come in through the basement window. And so when he come in, I went to the cellar door. I said, you're home, are you? He said, yes, is Carrie home yet? I said, Carrie's sleeping over. And that's basically all I know about that okay I found the next day and the police said I should have told them he left a pair of rubber boots at the step had a lot of mud on them and I thought that was kind of odd so the

footprints Trevor had said muddy footprints but the footprints weren't in the basement then? I don't know nothing about that. But muddy boots? The boots were out there. Out here? Yeah. Just out in the front steps. Okay. I told Toast about the boots later. He said, you should have told me earlier. I remember that. Yeah.

What time was it when you were sitting there? Oh, no idea. Just said it was late. So it would have been, do you think, after midnight? Could have been. Could have very well been. Yeah. But Jim's suspicions were raised even more by a conversation that took place in the period following Carrie's murder, something he didn't tell Trevor about until much later. The part that got me with him that concerned at all,

we were up in the bedroom, your mother was crying, and I'm in the same room and Ian comes in, and he said, she got what she deserved, she just wouldn't fucking listen. That's exactly what he said. She would not listen. And I told you that on the phone when you were in Winnipeg, and you were more or less going to go right over there.

You didn't use those words. Yes, I did. No, you didn't use those words that you just said. I'm not going to say another word about anything if I'm going to just argue with you. No, it's not that. I'm telling you what I remember you saying to me and it was I could recall it if I thought about it. You're on the right track but you were suspicious of him and you gave reasons to me why. Maybe she deserved it is what

you heard Ian utter under his kind of under his breath and you said what the fuck did you say? You yelled at him but that's what he uttered to you under his breath maybe she deserved it. I remember him saying she would not fucking listen. Them words, she would not fucking listen. That would imply that he was there and saw it. Your mother was sitting right in that chair, same chair that's up there right now, and I was going into the close closet to get a jacket or something. This is something that you probably wouldn't forget, that interaction, but maybe you would, I don't know.

But that's an interaction with your stepson. Right. Your wife's there, Ian is her son. Did you talk to your wife about that after? Not particularly. She was in that point in time for about three weeks just steady crying. She was so upset. I don't

believe Ian had anything to do with that really. I don't either. I would say Carrie would overpower Ian. She would have, physically. He wouldn't have been able to manhandle her. No. In my mind anyway. DNA anyway and the DNA that didn't match, they've got two DNAs there and certainly nobody in our family matched. I mean, it wasn't one person. I don't know if it even would be worth me talking to him or would that confuse him or cause trouble in a way that you don't want. Well, if you feel like talking to him, you can get a hold of him.

Like I say, we haven't even heard from them in a long time. It's just one of those tiny percentages that I like to explore. But is it going to cause trouble for you? It won't cause no trouble for me. Like, whatever we've got to do to get answers and not necessarily convict him or anything, but eliminate him. Yeah, it would be interesting to eliminate him, because you wonder, the theory that Trevor has,

and I think you, is that she may have known the person, right? So he may have been somehow in the car, right? Who knows? In the hours after Carrie was known to be missing, Trevor says Ian was going around town helping to put up posters, and Sean Simmons says he remembers driving Ian around door to door looking for Carrie. On one hand, Ian's actions seem to be normal under the circumstances, but on the other, muddy boots, coming in through the basement window, his utterance to

Jim, the car, some questions linger. Trevor and I decide to get on the road to see if we can locate Ian and talk to him. But nobody seems certain of what Ian's state of well-being might be. It's an eight-hour road trip, and Trevor's nearing the front door to leave with a big suitcase when he's intercepted by his father. You got your suitcase? I got my suitcase. Suitcase is packed. I'm going to say goodbye. Come on, Dad, say goodbye. Say goodbye?

Yeah. Here's a gift. Yeah. And I'd be glad to get rid of you. Carry on. All right, we'll see you when I get back. Nice suitcase you got. That's old school, Dave. That's the road case. You like that?

Okay. Packed with beer and drugs? No beer. No beer. Alright, we'll see you in a few days, Dad. Okay, bye. No beer. Dave, I was having a shower this morning. I got to thinking I'm going on 48 now Carrie left when I was 16 and I did some quick mental math

and it just kind of hit me all of a sudden like holy freak I've been around almost a half century and I've been living with this for two thirds of my life and I thought man I'd like to solve this I'd like to figure out the answers that we're looking for so that I don't have to keep thinking about it anymore. We've been looking for the killer of Carrie, the killers of Carrie, for twice as long as she was with us.

You think Jim's going to miss you? No. No, he'll enjoy the quiet, the house to himself. He's an introvert like me. We drive on for a while, making idle conversation. Why does a 9-volt battery look physically different than all the other batteries, the way it's designed? Like the square? Stopping for short breaks so Trevor can smoke,

or when we see a full adult bald eagle fly out from the side of the road. Did you see that huge bald eagle come up right there? Yeah, that was awesome, man. I'm going to go get a shot of him. And listening to Trevor sing. On a long, lonesome highway East of Omaha You could listen to the engines

Morning out as one song Before Kerry was murdered, Trevor had considered a career as a singer. Someone even told him he could do opera. Here I am On the road again Here I am, on the road again. Here I am, I'm up on the stage. Carrie used to hold up her phone to Trevor's room so her friends could hear him practicing singing rock songs in his mirror. And here I go, turn the page.

But he hasn't sung much in the over 30 years since then. With the echoes of the amplifiers Ringing in your head Fuck, that was awful. I can't sing as good as I used to. I haven't taken good care of my voice, but I love that song. I can sing it better when I'm listening to it. If Metallica's singing it or something,

I can let her rip that a little better. But yeah, that's my ad-lib version. That's pretty good, I thought. My voice isn't where I'd like it to be, that's for sure. What's the title of the song? Turn the Page. Turn the Page. I wish I could turn the page. It's late evening when we pull into Selkirk. We pass a giant statue of a catfish and continue to the downtown area. So now we're heading out to see Ian, Ian Brown,

and he's staying at a little hotel downtown. And we're going to try to find him, and hopefully he's okay to to talk tonight you haven't seen your brother in a long time no you'll have questions for him that are much different probably than i do i'm just focused on finding out his knowledge of carrie that evening that whole time that she was missing the aftermath assuming weuming we see him. Now maybe he knows something that he's not aware that he knows about that evening, about people. I don't know. Just kind of go through it, his timeline. We park on a deserted street and walk toward a building on a corner in the distance. An old prairie-style hotel with a bar downstairs and rooms for rent above it.

A sign on the side says says friendliest place in town. In the distance against the darkening sky we can just make out a bridge with a river flowing underneath. Silk or goodnight? I've never done this. Well there's a fire escape going up but I don't want to go up that.

It looks like it's being held up by a 2x4. There's a little door at the back that says open. Okay, let's go in here. I hook my arm into Trevor's and lead him into the packed bar, past a row of tense dart games, and I approach the bartender. Hi. Hi, how's it going? Where's the entrance to the rooms?

Oh, at the front. Okay. Okay, okay. Behind a steel fire door, we find an ancient staircase with a threadbare carpet over wooden steps. Smells fresh here. I look up into the gloom and see some yellow light coming from an open doorway to landing several flights above.

It's kind of musty. Okay, here we go. Maybe that's the floor where we'll find room number 18. Here's 17. Here's 16. Here's 18. Somewhere I can hear a television blaring a hockey game. We've passed a few open rooms with nobody in them then a kind of common area with a group sitting around a table playing cards. Then, ahead, we see it. Room 18 is on an internal corner

with no windows. Do you want to knock? I can't see much. It's here. That's the door. Room 18. Room 18. Room 18. Ian? Ian? We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga, capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music,

and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today. This brand new series, created by Visit Mississauga, celebrates a city 50 years in the making. Paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse, and dynamic third largest city. Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, to learn more. Available now on CBZ Listen. Are you sure you parked over here? Do you see it anywhere? I think it's back this way. Come on.

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Trevor? Ian? Where are you? I'm down here. I'm in your head. I'm just an auditory hallucination. Oh, fuck you, asshole! It turns out that Ian isn't in his room,

but down the hall in another watching the hockey I'm hearing on a big TV. Where are you? I'm over here, you knucklehead. Oh, you fucking son of a bitch! How's it going, man? Ian's had a few drinks from the sounds of it. Come on, give me some more.

Oh! Oh! Should I punch him? I promised mommy I would not lay a fucking finger on this kid. Okay. Okay? Okay. You were there. So you're having a few pops tonight.

You watching the hockey game? Morning. What's that? Morning. Let's that? Morning. Let's talk. Ian is small of frame with a deeply weathered complexion and long grey and goatee beard. And he's wearing a big blue ball cap. The initial greeting feels a bit awkward with no closeness amidst the bravado, but that seems to pass.

Ian leads us into the room, which is mostly filled with a king-size bed and the television. On the bed, another man watching the game intently. Which room is yours? This one? No, this is no friend of mine. Oh, hello. Hi. Who's winning? This is my fucking brother. Is it still 1-1?

I'm his brother, Trevor. Hi guys. Nice to meet you. From Pomsan. Yeah. So you're having a few pops. So Ian, I'm here with a guy. Yeah. We're working on a documentary about Kerry.

Okay. Yeah. And... Well, come in. Come inside. And a documentary about Kerry. Yeah. He'd really like to talk to you about just a lot of stuff. Because you're a brother, of course.

No shit, get crazy. You're having a few pops tonight. So I think he would prefer to do it with you when you're sober. And this is serious. First thing in the morning. Ian, so we'll see you in the morning, okay bro? Ian, I'll see you tomorrow morning. Okay. Nice to see you. Uh it'll be a side door. Okay. Bang on the side door. Just let

me know when you guys gonna show up. Probably 9 o'clock. Okay. Uh I'll be here. We'll see you. Okay. Thanks man. See you in the morning bro. Enjoy the game. Oh thank you. Put it on the staircase here. Okay. Okay. Be careful. I'm right behind you, brother. Right behind you. Okay. Hey, Dave.

I'll buy you a six-pack if you want. No, it's okay. Are you going to be my kingpin? Yeah. I'll be my kingpin. Okay, let's go. The next morning, we arrive just before nine and make our way to the same hotel. Want to take my hand?

Yeah. Boy, that sun's right in my eyes right now. In the daylight, some things seem a bit cheerier. There's a pole right in front of you, actually. Oh, yeah, I see that now. Yeah, sorry. Oh, there's a huge pile of puke right there. Oh, really?

Yeah, just hang on. There we go. Secret door found. Trevor said so he must have went out for a walk about, I guess. He knew we were coming? What time is it today? Nine o'clock. Yeah, so we told him we'd be here at nine. Okay, well, we'll go look for him. Do you know anywhere where he goes for a walk? He just goes up and down the streets, going to different places, I guess.

I don't really know if he goes to the soup kitchen or not. Trevor and I go outside, and after a bit of looking, Ian appears around the corner. He's in the same clothes, now covered with an oversized black fleece pullover. So Ian, you want to get in the front seat of this Jeep here? Rather than go back inside the hotel, we decide to chat in the rental.

Great, thanks for doing this. I'm just going to put the window down a bit to give us a bit of freedom here. There we go. So just Ian, tell me who you are and where we are here. Okay, my name's Ian Scott Brown. I'm originally from Thompson, Manitoba. I moved here from Winnipeg just to get away from the crime and everything. After my mom died and my sister was murdered,

I needed just to get away and find myself and sort life out. There's been many times over the years I thought of dropping off that fucking bridge. I just weren't walking in the river, just ending it all. I had a brown meteor in Thompson that I drove down to Winnipeg and ended up getting stranded down here.

I ended up selling it for $100, enough for a hotel room for the night until I could get ahold of all of her and find out what my options are. And I've been here ever since. What was your relationship like with Carrie? It was a little strange. We really didn't often see eye to eye together.

Trevor was more close to her than I was. Being a year apart from each other. And I was in Greendale-RuPaul for fucking two years. Got one of Peg's songs. I didn't really get to know her that well as much as I would have loved to, you know what I mean? Can you tell me what you can remember

from the time when your sister was murdered around that Thursday, the Friday, and the Saturday? Oh, my. What was going on in your life, what you were doing? Well, me and E.B. Dockhorn were working at Highway Inn, and it was a long day. I'm getting tired, it's supper time.

The mechanic's wife came into the restaurant for fucking supper. We sat down, and E.B. was right beside the window, and I sat on the outside. And we started talking. Evie said, Ian, let her read your palms. I put my hand out and she put her fingers across my palms and then all of a sudden she just got up and walked right out of the restaurant. I had a strange look on her face, like she'd seen something.

But she couldn't tell me what it was. And I knew something bad was going to happen. I just had that funny feeling. And so I called the house. Carrie answered the phone. It's at this point that I realize Ian's version of events seem skewed, different from what Trevor and I have heard before. Her girlfriend was at the house.

And they were going to a party at Ray's Stables. And we were supposed to meet there after work but we got called in because there was a double bus coming in so we were there all night. So I called and let her know that I couldn't make the party at Ray's Stables. I told her, just stay home. Don't go anywhere. Stay put until you heard from me. I'll try and get there as soon as I can possibly get, okay?

But she didn't obviously listen. And another thing, well, things happen. So me and EB, what was it, next day, I think? This would be the Friday then? Yeah. Next day, we went looking for her. Okay, maybe she stayed over at Ray's Stables, that Ray's place, looking for the mate. And her and Rhonda.

And me and Eby went over there. They haven't seen her. And then, well, where can they be? I tracked down Erwin Dockhorn, or E.B. as Ian calls him. The man Ian says was with him on the Thursday night and Friday of Carrie's disappearance. My mother used to babysit them. Oh, is that right? Yeah. What can you tell me about Ian, Ian Brown?

I know it hit him pretty, well, all of them hard, but I know Ian, yeah, I think it still affects him nowadays. I mean, he's not the same guy as he was. Dockhorn remembers going around with Ian to look for Carrie on the Friday, but he cannot remember looking for her at the stables as Ian says they did. And we looked around a few places, but I mean, we didn't look at the stables. I'm kind of glad we didn't. I wouldn't want to defound her. So how did you get around then when you were looking? I can't remember. Maybe we had somebody else. I don't know, but I didn't drive either. Doc Horn also can't remember who drove or whose car they were in. He says they looked into the notion that Carrie might have been picked up by a cab

and dropped off somewhere, but it ended up going nowhere. And he says he wasn't with Ian the night before, on the Thursday, when Carrie was at the party on Trout Crescent. I was hoping, because I talked to Ian, and he said your name and that you had been with him, and I was hoping that you had been with him on the night that Kerry disappeared, so that I could account for where Ian was, so that I could understand what his movements were on that night.

So you don't recall being with Ian? No. I never hung around him as if, like like back then i was freshly on my own and yeah you go to the bar you do this and that with your friends and he wasn't one of them that i went with like you know i had my own different people i hung out with you know different friends and if it was at night eight 1986 yeah okay yeah uh kind of think where I was working at the time. But, no, I never hung around with him. Like, I wouldn't have been with him that night.

Back to Ian in the van, and he continues his version of events on the Friday after Kerry disappeared. Pulled up to home and didn't know until the next day, which is, I guess, Friday. Next day would be Saturday afternoon. Yeah, it was Saturday afternoon that they found a body out in Reese Staples. Then they found out they found a body, a couple of riders,

found Kerry's body on the hydroline. You there, Trev, you know what I'm talking about. No, not everything. A lot of what you're saying makes zero sense to me. Zero. As far as you having a conversation with Carrie

that she was going to a party at the stables, that I've never heard before. She never had any plans on going to a party at the stables, that I've never heard before, and she never had any plans on going to a party at the stables, I can assure you. She was going to Doug's house that night, and she knew it. Then I don't know what happened. That's just, I'm saying, and you're asking me, I'm hearing stuff that I've never heard before, so sorry. I don't know, your memories are what they are,

but I just don't recall what you're saying about talking to her when you were working and I don't know where you were that night I was at Jerry Armitage's, Carrie was at Doug's maybe take Dave from there who were you out looking for her with? like I said where did you go publicly?

do you recall any of the places you went publicly in Thompson? went to Ray's Stables what made you go? Where did you go publicly? Do you recall any of the places you went publicly in Thompson? Went to Ray's Stables. What made you go there? Because, you know, that's where they were going to party on those hydro lines. No, no, no. You remember talking to Carrie and she said she was going to go to the stables? Yeah, to Ray's Stables. They were going to have a little get-together there. I guess it was somebody's birthday or something.

I said, well, we'll see if we can meet you there at some time. Me and Edie and never did show up. And that's my other problem. Carrie wouldn't want to be drinking with you. You didn't drink with Carrie. I didn't drink with Carrie. Carrie had her own very close-knit group of friends that she drank together with Ian, and they didn't go drinking in the bush, I can assure you.

They drank at people's houses because they could. Anyway, that's endless. Ian, who has appeared increasingly uncomfortable, reaches for the door handle. I don't want to. Ian, your car you said was brown? Yeah. The meteor? You didn't have it at the time of your car you said was brown? Yeah. The meteor? Yeah.

You didn't have it at the time of Carrie's death, did you? Yep. You had the brown meteor? Yep. Did you used to drive it around? Yep. Do you think you would have been driving around that night somewhere in it? Maybe.

I don't remember. It was a long night. I didn't get home from work until about 5 o'clock the next morning. Could Ian's car have been seen coming out of the stable roads the night Carrie disappeared? You couldn't be driving your car, Ian, because you weren't insured and you had no license. So how were you out driving around everywhere? You had no insurance or license. Hey, wait.

Ian, hey, it's okay, it's okay. No, I know, I... Again, Ian grabs the door handle. Ever since he said off the top he'd considered walking off the bridge ahead of us, I felt sick. I try to calm it down a bit and motion for Trevor to try to slow his pace and tone of questioning. We don't need to... Sorry. Just let him talk. It's okay. You can just tell me what you remember. It's okay. We don't have to make it a tense situation.

Are you okay? I just don't like talking about it. Okay. Okay. I just... Do you remember talking to police about Carrie or anything about what was going on? Did they ask you any questions? Yeah, they asked me a few questions. They asked, where were you, kind of thing.

I told them I was at work. What kind of car do you drive? I said an old Meteor. And they said, well, we checked the car out from Pat somewhere, and it was like a car, just like mine. Did they ever look at your car? Did they search your car? Yeah, they checked the whole nine yards.

Based on my information, it's not clear the police did look at Ian's car. Did you ever think that they were looking at you as possibly having something to do with Carrie's murder? Did you ever think the police were looking? Yeah, I was kind of bending that way, like, whoa, why are they searching my car? Like, what do I do now, you know? I was in Winnipeg and then I did DNA tests down here. It came back, it wasn't my blood. So, shrugged it off, okay.

And then, once things settled down and it finally hit me, the look on your face when you got the phone call from the hospital after Dad went and identified a fucking cyst. Well, I went down there with him. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Trout and Dad got home and it just, they had a look in their eyes that you just can't forget.

It was a big loss and just so. Jim said to me that he remembered you came in late that night and you came in through the basement window. Do you remember that and with muddy feet or something? No, I don't remember that night. Okay. I wish I could help you guys out more, but with all the concussions I've had over the years, my memory's not to the greatest of deeds.

That's okay. That's okay. Do you remember driving around with Sean Simmons on the Friday? Did he drive you and EB around looking in a truck, a red truck? Might have been. You went to Santa Maria and met him there? Could have been. I might have.

But I mean, that was a long time ago. You know, you're talking years here. What do you think happened to Carrie? What do you think happened that night? For one thing, I can tell you right now, she went out across the bridge. She was pretty good at bridges. Even going out to the cabin.

Eh, Trev? Nah, bang on, brother. Bang on. She would duck on the fucking floor. Duck down. Yeah. So she wouldn't be going, crossing that fucking bridge, without somebody being with her that she could trust.

Because they knew how she got. Ian, I just want to know one thing. Have you ever had a diagnosis for any condition that you had? Do you have an official diagnosis? Yeah, paranoid schizophrenia. And are you taking medication? Yes, I am. Okay.

And is it helping? A bit. That's good. Okay. I want to get a picture of you two together. You want an intro? Yeah. Oh, hey, grab your bag and I'll get you. I'll move to the other side.

And with that, the interview with Ian draws to an end. I wish you would let me know you're coming down here. Well, we didn't let anybody know that they're coming. Dave likes to work that way. Oh, okay. This week, okay? You got my address? I have your address.

I have your address. And we'll stay in touch, okay? Okay. You don't have a phone in your room, right? No, not right now. I can send you mail, though. Yeah, yeah. Right to the hotel.

I'll write you. I'll write you. Okay. Okay, bro, I love you, man. Okay. Take care, bro. We'll talk soon. He's lost a ton of weight.

He's really thin. He's dying, think yeah i'm sorry i went off there for a sec and he i've been on his bait he says what do you think trev i don't remember any of this like he's never some of those things he was saying i've i've never heard of he's never told me that story about talking to carrie and meeting at the stables for a party and it never happened she didn't party with him she didn't party with me she had her like her own circle and they she knew where she was going then it wasn't the stables the car's intriguing it i don't remember him having it at that time dave but i could be wrong well all the reports are that he did have it roly said he had it okay and uh he said he had it brown car

similar to the one that was seen right so. So, and driving around, he doesn't remember. Like, it's really hard, you know. I don't know how to go further with Ian. I think I've, you know, it's difficult with his condition. He said he's been diagnosed. He's got medication. How can you dissect or take in and examine what he says? You know, I mean, you're here.

You know your information information and he has his version of information i mean we all manufacture facts out of thin air but his facts and his thin air are a bit different on the spectrum right or they may be they may or may not be you know but i'm intrigued he did have a car that looked like one of those and who's to say someone else didn't get their hands on it at the time other than him, right? Knowing that he might have given it to someone, let someone use it. You know, he's like that. So Ian is going to have to remain that. There's going to be a question mark on Ian because I don't think that any, I mean, he's himself said DNA was taken. That doesn't mean that there wasn't some kind of transit involved or something he can't remember, right?

I have someone in my life who has OCD, and you have to train yourself to be comfortable with the unknown. You have to be comfortable with uncertainty. And I guess I have to be comfortable with this uncertainty around Ian. Trevor says he doubts that the RCMP looked at Ian's car, though they did take the whole family's DNA, according to he and Jim. I ask former RCMP investigator John Toast what he remembers about Ian Brown. Did you ever look into Ian Brown as a suspect?

I can tell you, yeah, we did. We looked at, we've looked at virtually anybody. There were inquiries made with regards to Ian. Can I ask you, is he still alive? He is. Is he in touch with the family at all? He is. All right.

All I want to say with regards to Ian is there were inquiries made, but I don't think he was ever identified or developed or seen as a suspect or a viable suspect, if that makes sense to you. Ian was not a suspect, according to John Toast. Trevor's gut feeling is that Ian had nothing to do with Carrie's murder, that Ian would have eventually told someone. But he and Jim still had questions, and so did I. Ian's answers weave in and out of agreement with Trevor's understanding of events and what I have heard from others. Carrie was at Doug Crocus's and probably wouldn't have arranged to meet Ian at the stables for a birthday party.

But Ian's car and his whereabouts, Irwin Dockhorn denying being with him across the period that Carrie disappeared or with him while searching the stables, muddy boots and coming home through the basement window, and his tenuous relationship with Carrie still seem undefined. Ian now lives homeless in a tent near the same bridge that he used to ponder every day. But these questions and people may have to take a back seat for a while, because I've finally found the woman who says she took that mysterious phone call to the RCMP after Carrie disappeared. And she wants to talk.

You have been listening to Episode 8, Other Brother. If you enjoy SKS, please take time to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Want a place to discuss episodes with others and discover exclusive content? Join our new Facebook group and follow us on Twitter at SKSCBC. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez. And produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kemp, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim. And executive producer, Arif Noorani.

Original music by David Fetterman. Our theme song is Thompson Girl by the Tragically Hip. plan Thompson girl we jettison everything we can she says springtime's coming wait till you see it poking through with them shoots of beauty it's the end of an animal view weather

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