Someone Knows Something - S5 Update: "I was here all night"

Episode Date: March 6, 2019

David follows up on tips, rumours and accusations surrounding the Kerrie Brown case, and tracks down more potential suspects. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/someone-knows-something-season-5-kerrie-brown-transcripts-listen-1.4850662

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Listener discretion is advised. You're listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. In Season 5, David Ridgen travels north to Thompson, Manitoba to investigate the 1986 murder of Carrie Brown. This is Season 5 Bonus. I was here all night. It's approaching Daphne Dillman's house. Hello. She's barking at me, sorry.

Hi. Can I come up? What's this dog's name? Gunner. Gunner. Beautiful. Wow, look at those husky eyes. I'm looking for someone named Daphne Dillman. That's me.

Oh, that's you? Yeah. Okay, hi. I work for CBC Radio. I find Daphne Dillman with her dog and a friend doing some yard work outside of a northern Saskatchewan mobile home. Daphne is blonde with glasses and multiple piercings in her lip, eye and ears. And Gunner the Husky has the air of an 80s goth with white irises and face lined in black. Trevor Brown received some Facebook messages from Daphne back in 2016 with a provocative-sounding tip that I'd like to speak to her about.

It took me a few months to find Daphne, but a minute or two after meeting her and Gunnar, I'm invited inside. Can I get him to turn the TV off? We're going to the back. Oh, okay. Is that okay? I'll take my shoes off. In Daphne's messages to Trevor, she writes about a phone call her father received on the night of Carrie's murder. A friend of his had done something bad and needed his help. When Trevor asked for specifics, Daphne replied, quote,

something about a trailer and they wanted Dad to move a body with them. I was born and raised in Thompson. I do know the Brown family. I know Trevor, not very close. I did not know Carrie, because I was only five years old at the time. I know their father, Jim. He was always coming into the bar where I worked, so I kind of

got to know him a little bit. But my father, he has passed away since with ALS, and he was telling me some stuff. Now, like I said to Trevor, we're not sure if it was the disease talking, but I can't see it being that. What was your father's name? My father's name was Tim Smith. Tim uttered this strange story from his deathbed as he succumbed to the ravages of ALS, also known as Lou Gehrig's disease. And so he was getting worse and I was out at the farm visiting because we knew it was going to happen, just didn't know when. And he started telling me stuff about his childhood that I didn't even know, that nobody knew.

And all of a sudden, Carrie Brown came up. And I asked him, why did she come up all of a sudden? And he was telling me that John Brewster had something to do with it. John Brewster had something to do with it. Daphne says this all stemmed from that late night phone call her dad claimed to have received on the same evening that Carrie Brown was murdered. The night this happened, my mom was working at Santa Maria Night Shift. My dad told me that John Brewster had phoned him, and he was a guy from Thompson, a friend of my dad's,

and he said that he needed help with something. And it was very, very late at night, which was unlike John. But all my dad said was that he had to go to the trailer court and help John do something. The trailer court? Yeah, they have a section in Thompson they call the Burntwood Trailer Court. It's all old trailers and a bunch of people that sold drugs and party houses. But at that point, I was trying to get more information out of my dad. And I don't think he wants me or wanted me to know exactly everything

he just needed to me to know that something happened. And I asked him, well, how do you know it was Carrie? And he said, well, it was kind of coincidental that this call came in. And all of a sudden this girl is deceased. And I said, but can you prove it? And he's like, well, I don't know. Did your dad say anything about the person on the phone saying something about moving a body? He could have. That's what it says in your Facebook? Yeah. I don't even have that message anymore. Like I said, it was fresh just after me talking to my father about it when I gave him the information. Daphne's memory seems a bit vague today.

In her original email to Trevor, she says her father brought this phone call to the attention of the Thompson RCMP. Quote, He went to the police a few days after they found Carrie. The cops talked to him and said they would get in touch with him, and they never did. So the original message you would say has got the information in it. Yeah, and I asked my dad, like, did you go to the police?

And he said yes, the police were supposed to contact him back about an interview or something and nothing was ever done. Tim Smith asked his daughter Daphne, she says, to keep this information to herself until after his death. When did your dad pass again? What was the date? He passed away May 9th of 2016. Shortly thereafter Daphne messaged Trevor, who says he also gave the information to the police. Then they've never come to you?

No, never. And I said to Trevor, like, this may be something. It may not be. I don't know. But because he told me this, I have to say something. But I just, I don't understand it. It may be something. It may not be. In fact, I have heard broken telephone variations

of this same tip from others in Thompson since season five went to air. But they all feature the same central character, John Brewster. Did you ever go and talk to John Brewster about this? No. Looks like I'll have to find John Brewster. I've been waiting for about an hour outside of this little row house,

green row house. Waiting for John Brewster to come home. Brewster lives in a small city in southern Manitoba. I think I'd be kind of foolish not to look into these tips that sound so strange about Carrie's case. It's like you can't really discount them based on sort of your surprise or your shock that somebody said such a thing. You have to kind of ask the people.

I've not seen a current photo of Brewster, but judging by the direction a man of the right age is taking on the lawn across the street, I'd say it could be him. I don't think there's any harm in asking questions. John? Hi. How are you? I'm good. How are you doing? I'm good. You're John Brewster, right?

Yes. I work for CBC Radio, and I do a podcast. After explaining who I was and what I was doing, I asked Brewster if he phoned Tim Smith in October 1986, saying he'd done something bad. Oh, gosh, no. Where would you get this information from? It came off a Facebook tip.

No, gosh, no. Why would someone say something like that? No kidding. And I'm helping the family and it's like, yeah, you're supposed to look down, run down all the things. Yeah, leads or whatever. Yeah. So you drove cab that night. I did. And did you hear or see anything that was out of the ordinary? No. So the call, I'll tell you what it was. Okay. And you can tell me what Tim Smith says. You called him that night and said you needed help because he'd done something bad.

And it goes on to say, I need help moving a body. That I said? That you, John Brewster, were supposed to have said. Oh, gosh, no, that's... No. No. That's what I wanted. You know, I would go and take a lie detector's test.

Never made a phone call? No. To Tim Smith that night? No, definitely not. Never had anything to do with her murder? I did not. Based on John Brewster's reaction to these allegations, his body language, and his volunteering to undergo a polygraph,

I believe him when he says that he had nothing to do with Carrie's murder. Add to that that key parts of Daphne's tip don't seem as clear-cut now as when she communicated with Trevor. But there is one important finding from this part of the investigation. Did the police ever come and talk to you about this? No. Some of the tips that I've chased down in my investigation of Carrie's murder had been, according to Trevor, given to the RCMP years earlier.

But this tip, at least, doesn't appear to have been followed up on, other than a possible meeting with Tim Smith back in the 80s. Oh, I've never had anybody contact me all these years. Well, I know it's a shock to, you know... Well, I'm not kidding. But you've got to track it all down. And thank you for understanding that, so thanks very much. You're a good one. Take care. Take care.

I've heard many, many names of potential suspects in my almost two years on the Brown case, and the stories about them can seem vivid and real. Brewster is a good example of this. And while Patrick Sumner remains a figure in Kerry's story, with some of my questions to him left unanswered, there are other tips and other people. Looking into these names and stories is an important part of the truth-finding process, but there are examples of tips that

become difficult to fully track down. I've included some of them here in this bonus episode in the hopes that they may dispel or at least help to clarify some of the more tenacious beliefs or rumors that surround Carrie's case. She became immediately very, very upset and said something about knowing something about who had taken her or what had happened in a van or a vehicle or something like that. That's Craig Jordan, a friend of Carrie's. His story is a good example of how I'm not always able to connect to both ends of a tip.

And sometimes I make initial contact with someone, but then I'm not always able to connect to both ends of a tip. And sometimes I make initial contact with someone, but then I'm not able to reconnect with them. Here's the woman Craig told me about who shall remain unnamed. Hi, is this a good time for you? I am in the middle of rolling meatballs to go to Memorial Suffering. My answer, I'll speak it. Will you be able to call me this evening? I'll be home around seven. Okay, I can call you at seven then. Thanks.

Good luck with the meatballs. The woman with the meatballs allegedly saw a photo of Carrie and broke down in front of my tipster, then implied she knew what happened to Carrie. She hasn't answered any of my follow-up phone calls, texts, or Facebook messages, but I'd still like to talk to her. So what's this little house here, Trevor? Right here with this blue porch here. Okay, let's see what goes on here. Check, check, check.

Hi. On another lead, I interviewed a man who I had been told had had Carrie in his van that night with screams and goings-on being heard in the background. But this was second or third hand information and I've not yet been able to speak to the supposed direct witness. The tip says that Carrie was in your vehicle and that she was being driven around or something. Do you recall having Carrie ride in your vehicle? No. No? No, that never happened. Okay. Why do you think someone would tip this about you? I have no idea.

Again, the initial information I received about this person was third-hand. I'm hoping that presenting it here will bring someone forward who might know more to help clarify this story. Another guy here in town named Marlon Bonnier, he tells my dad they took his DNA. Both Jim and Trevor would like me to take a closer look at Marlon Bonnier, an 18- or 19-year-old man at the time that Carrie knew, who also owned a white van.

The only thing, if she knew who the people were, she trusted them. Now, Bonnier come around here in his van and pick kids up to drive to school for quite some time before that. She may have trusted him if he gave them rides to school, and she might have jumped in there. This is a fellow who I've heard many in Thompson talk about. There was a tremendous amount of anger. This fellow had a van, and I think it was just because he had a van

that somebody, you know, painted murderer all over his van. The circumstantial ownership of a van led to local intrigue and some real-life consequences. Jim saw this fellow in a bar one night and told him he was under suspicion. He's quite a tall, good-looking guy, and he came down and I told him exactly. I said, blow your effing head off. I told him that.

You told Sondra that too. I know. And he got on his phone right away. I said, maybe I said too much. He said, you've said too much already. So I just finished my beer and took off. And naturally... The cops came knocking.

They're coming to the door. The cops came knocking? Oh, yeah to the door. The cops came knocking? Oh, yeah. Yeah, he threatened to kill him. So what did the police say when they came to the door? They just said, we've told you before, Mr. Brown, we can't do our job here if you keep bullying people around. I just told you that.

Because he had the van, the white van. The window in the back? What shape was the window? Oval. Oval. Oval. Rounder oval. Okay. White van with a circular window.

To the left, definitely. It's way down in the corner. It's in the far corner of the trailer park. Trevor and I try to speak to Marlon Bonnier, the man with the van. Let's just be careful about whether he's there or not. I don't want to go... Are you going to call him and give him the heads up that you want to talk to him, we want to talk to him, or how would you like to do this? Well, we'll see. Sometimes you drive by and they're standing there. Sure.

What's Mike LaVoie doing these days? Let's not get into that right now. Gotcha. Trevor and I drive by on several different occasions. Sometimes there's no one home. Other times there are too many people. Or the feeling not quite right. This is the old trailer court, Dave.

We passed it there. I think it was that house with like 50 people around it. Oh. Yeah, that's not happening. Makes everything and everybody more tense. Yeah. I'll have to call. I decide to try calling. No answer. I leave messages, no callbacks. Finally, I get someone. Hello? Oh, hi. Can I speak to Marlon, please? He's working. Oh, he's working. Okay. Do you know what time he'll be back? Next Wednesday.

Oh, next Wednesday. Okay. Great. Thanks very much. I'll try him then. Thanks so much. Okay. Okay, bye-bye. But... Hello, we are not available now. Hi there, this message is for Mr. Marlon Bonnier. Mr. Bonnier, it's David Ridgen calling from CBC Radio. If you can give me a call back. I sent a couriered letter to Bonnier outlining all the information I wanted to talk to him about,

but I haven't made a connection with him yet. Though I did speak with someone else who says they had a conversation with Bonnier about the Kerry Brown case. A man by the name of Darren Fulford. The only thing I actually ever heard, because there was a white van that was seen coming out of there, and Merlin Bonnier said to me one time, that was my van.

That's the only thing I ever heard. Merlin Bonnier actually said to you that it was his van? Yeah. That's the only thing I ever heard in relation to the Carian. This was a long time ago. When did he say that to you and under what circumstance? We were just out and I don't know if we were having, we were just like having a conversation. We weren't at a party or nothing.

We were just having a conversation and the Carian Brown thing came up and he had mentioned that. And you clearly heard Marlon Bonnier say that was my white van that was seen? Yeah. And did you tell the police that you heard that? Not that piece, no. They never asked me on that. I see.

Yeah. Did anyone else hear him say that to you? Was anyone else part of it? I don't believe so. Okay. Yes. I mean, I don't know. A guy is still here, but I don't like, I mean, it was kind of strange.

Like he didn't seem nervous or nothing, but you never know, right? His van scene out there, I heard there was a white van out there at the time. That was my van. I have no idea if Banya even spoke to Fulford or ever said this phrase, but it's important enough that I will keep trying to get Bonnier to talk to me in the hope that he can clarify. I've looked further into the story that Jean-Marc Villeneuve told me about another van being pulled over the week before Carrie was murdered by RCMP officer Donnie Fisher. There was an incident the weekend before with Donnie Fisher and those three gentlemen in a van where Donnie had to pull his service revolver and call for backup,

and it was a very, very violent situation. These kids didn't care, and they were ready to kill. There was no if, buts, or maybe about it. If Donnie went to pull his service revolver, they would have killed him. While Fisher hasn't spoken to me yet, I've come across articles in the Thompson newspaper sent in by a listener that detail what must be the same incident and that will allow me to describe more about how the incident unfolded. According to the court docket mentioned in the article, it happened over a month before Carrie was murdered, on the early morning of September 8, 1986. The officer involved is not named, but I assume it could be Fisher. Twelve males in their late teens or early

twenties, in a van of unknown colour, were pulled over by the officer in an area known as Davis Bay. The officer tried to arrest the driver, Stephen Brown, no relation to Carrie, on an impaired driving charge. The twelve males then reportedly began to threaten the officer to the extent that he drew his service revolver. Stephen Brown was hit in the face with a flashlight when he took a run at the officer. Other police arrived and the situation ended with a number of arrests. David Glenn Eagle, Keith DeChambeau, Brian K. McKenzie, Stephen Brown, and a merle Frederick Spence. This seemed like a promising connection at first, but preliminary research suggests that

this person is not the same Fred Spence, Frederick Allen Spence, that I spoke to in Nelson House with Luella. Of the men who were arrested, Brown and Spence made bail, but the other three were denied and from the information in the article would have been in jail at the time of Carrie's disappearance. The names of the other seven males in the van who were not charged is up for speculation, but I have some idea of who they could be, and we'll be tracking them down for a chat. I was concerned because of the fact of what was in that conversation that he had stated that he had just murdered someone. Marnie Schaefer, the civilian RCMP operator who took that suspicious call

in the early morning hours of October 17, 1986, has also given me a few names of people who may have been in that van. And of course, none of the males in the van may have had anything to do with Carrie's murder. And speaking of Marnie and the phone call, there may be another name for the RCMP officer the mysterious caller wanted to talk to in Norway House. Another name worth looking into. Hello? Hi, is Lillian there? Just a second. Lillian Arsenault is originally from Norway House.

She left around 1974 after marrying an RCMP member, but remained closely connected to her community. Thanks so much for doing this. So I just wanted to have a quick little interview with you about what you might know that might be able to help us with the Kerry Brown case. Well, not a lot other than the fact that I think the member that you're looking for is Alain Labrasier. Okay. Alain Labrasier. How do you spell that name? Marnie had had trouble recalling the name of the RCMP officer in Norway House who the caller was asking for. She knew it was of French origin and remembers it sounding like Lafreniere.

But Lillian says it could possibly be this other man, also an RCMP member who worked at Norway House, named Alain Labrasseur. Okay. But he was in Norway House at that time. He left there in the spring of 88. Left in spring of 88? Okay. Yeah. I left a message with an Alain Le Brasseur who used to be an RCMP member, but no response.

And I've also continued to look for a member with the last name Lefreniere, since another person who said they worked for RCMP member, but no response. And I've also continued to look for a member with the last name Lafreniere, since another person who said they worked for RCMP got in touch after hearing the podcast and told me that a Joe Lafreniere used to be an Indigenous member of the RCMP in Norway House in the 1980s. If anyone knows a way of reaching either of these two men, please get in touch. This brand new series created by Visit Mississauga celebrates a city 50 years in the making, paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse and dynamic third largest city. Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, to learn more. Available now on CBZ Listen.

Oh, that coffee smells good. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? Whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you doing? That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee. Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with mortgage payments on their minds. If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank. The earlier they understand your situation,

the more options and relief measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. I know Carlton Jackson, he was another suspect back in the day after their blinders came off of Sumner. He had his DNA taken. Back to potential suspects. I'm also tracking Carlton Jackson, whose name I've heard a lot from the very beginning.

According to my information, Jackson was questioned by police around the time of Carrie's memorial service, Wednesday, October 22, 1986. That was four days after her body was discovered, and just before the arrest of Patrick Sumner. And then Carlton was released shortly thereafter? Yeah, I don't even know if he was held overnight or spoke to two or three times or what. But he had a reputation for being rough with girls. He had that reputation. Did you ever hear why they brought Carlton in other than the fact that he had a reputation? His background.

Just his background. Yep. He was known for violence against women. Young, young women. Jackson's criminal record shows charges of assault with weapon, sexual assault, and even kidnapping. But he went out of his way to plead his innocence directly to the Brown family.

When he got out, he come right to my house. He said, Jim, Jim, he said, honest to God, I had nothing to do with that. I was so mad at the time I could have took him down the basement and killed him, actually. This is Carlton. Carlton Jackson. And he told you he had nothing to do with it. Yep. But your feeling about him is nothing to do with your sister's murder?

Yeah. No, I think if he was guilty, he would have been found out. Because his fingerprints would have been all over that crime scene, right? And they weren't. They haven't arrested him. I would have liked to speak with Jackson regardless, but it sounds like that might not be possible. We talked about karma before.

He got karma, I think, because he got his head caved in by a boyfriend of a girl here in Thompson's, curb stomped him. Curb stomped him, like, on the curb with a foot. And sent him to Winnipeg in a fucking air ambulance, brain dead. And he's living in Winnipeg today, I don't know. He's not a normal human being today. According to Trevor and Jim, Jackson would be unable to answer any questions. But maybe someone who knew Jackson might be able to help.

And there are others who also came under suspicion. Notably, a man who would have been 20 at the time of Carrie's murder, named Robert Delaronde. Trevor tells me more about Delaronde and why it will be impossible to speak to him. Yeah, Robert, obviously his name came up lots over the years because he was known to be violent and not right in the head, if I could say it any nicer. But we knew he had hanged himself in the Thompson Inn years ago.

It's this suicide in 1992, along with the history of violence that has led many people I've spoken to to suspect Robert Delaronde may have had something to do with Carrie's murder. Did Delaronde have an alibi? That I don't know. I was told by the RCMP because I contacted them after I was told by the sister, that they never took his DNA. Did I tell you that story? No.

Trevor tells me about running into Robert Delorant's sister a few years after his death while out for coffee with Doug Crocus at the Mystery Lake Hotel. And I start talking about Robert Delaron, and I have often wondered if he left a suicide note, because there's no evidence, if he did, that it still exists, unless someone has it that we don't know about. Again, Delaron's suicide may have absolutely nothing to do with Carrie, but it's often a main focus of the suspicion surrounding him.

And all of a sudden, this woman spins around. She was sitting. I could see her back from where I was sitting. She turns around and she's crying. She goes, could you please stop talking about my brother like that? It was Robert Delaron's sister, younger sister. Just surreal. And I said, I'm sorry, we're just trying to find out who murdered my sister. I wanted her to know who I was. And Doug said, sorry, we won't trying to find out who murdered my sister. I wanted her to know who I was.

And Doug said, sorry, we won't talk about it anymore. But I said, before we stop, I said, can I ask you, please, just ask you one question? She was kind of not sure. And I said, did they ever take DNA from your brother, the police? And she said, no. Whether Dellerand had his DNA taken or not, and when that might have been, is a question I've also heard others in Thompson mulling over.

And it's an important one if we want to get to the truth of the matter. I even went as far as to contacting his mother about two years ago and explained to her who I was and what I wanted. And I asked her if I could, but she wanted really nothing to do. She hung up on me once I started describing to her what they did to her. Does she know something? And is just now that Robert's gone, what's the point of putting, you know, saying something that she knows now that he's gone? Does it matter? I don't know.

The possibility of finding out more about Robert Delaronde came about recently when Trevor ran into a different Delaronde family member by chance. It was purely happenstance. As you know, I volunteer with the Humane Society of Walking Dogs, and he's the, what do they call it, the guy that goes and collects animals and stuff, animal control kind of thing for the Humane Society. But I was there one day to pick up a dog and take Axel for a walk, and there he was.

Coincidentally, I heard somebody mention his name, and I said, you're Craig Delleron, you're Robert's younger brother. And he goes, yeah, and I said, I'm Trevor Brown. Craig Delleron? Yes. What did he say? And I just started telling them, like, I don't know if this information is going to help you or bring any kind of closure.

Like I said, I was only 12 years old when your sister passed. Did you ever talk to your brother about that evening? Or did you ever talk to him directly about what happened? No. About the case, about Kerry Brown or anything like that? I was the youngest in the family and, you know, it was just because I overheard him talking to my sisters about it. He was having a party the night the murder happened. He was on Sumconee Apartments which is not too far away from Trout. The Sumconee Apartments were located on the corner of Westwood and Thompson Drive not far from Trout Avenue where

Kerry was last seen about a a three-minute drive away. You're saying that your brother Robert was having a party that night? Right, that's correct. I know that the RCMP came to talk to my parents, and that was way after the fact, and at the time, my parents wasn't willing to give DNA because they felt our family would go through what Sudner went through. Let's just pin it on somebody, and we can shut this case down quite fast. And one thing I have to make clear is that my brother was diagnosed, at the time they called it manic depression. It's no longer called that. It's bipolar disorder. He didn't get diagnosed until he was at age 21.

He never was a person to ask for help. He would do something extravagant like break a window and wait for the cops to pick him up and whatever. I guess he was tired of living that life, I guess. Trevor did ask me, did he leave a note or anything, which he didn't leave no note. He just did it. It sounds awful, sorry to have to make you talk about it.

I just was interested in the sort of situation and what led to that because I think people have drawn conclusions based on... Oh, for sure they have. He was a violent guy. Robert had a rap sheet as long as your arm, etc. So people make this connection that it must have had something to do... Oh, yeah, I absolutely can understand that. Did you ever witness him being violent in a way that might have led you to think,

oh, he might have killed somebody? Or do you think, could he have done this to Carrie? With what I've seen with my brother's demeanor, I couldn't see it. I just never... He was big on making sure women never got hit. That's the way my parents raised us. And he never...

Not that I know of ever hit any of his girlfriends or anything like that. He's never been in jail for that kind of stuff. It's always been for fighting in the bars or fighting on the streets or whatever. To get a better idea about Robert Delaron's potential for violence and treatment of women, I asked Craig to put me in touch with Robert's ex-girlfriend, Heather McIver. Hello? Hi, Heather, it's Dave Ridgen calling. Hello.

Are you aware of the podcast I'm doing on Carrie Brown? Oh, yeah. Okay, okay, so have you listened? Oh, yeah, I've heard it all. Okay, okay, so I guess I'm really interested in if Robert Delaronde ever mentioned Carrie's case or Carrie at all to you. Well, he had bipolar disorder.

And sometimes when he was in a mania people that he knew had done it or had acted suspicious at that point in time. So, Robert, would you say go to the RCMP and tell them this information as well? Yes, he had made a few statements. Okay, and when he made the statements, do you know the name of the person he was mentioning? Carlton Jackson. Carlton Jackson. The same man who police had brought in for questioning,

the same who visited the Brown household swearing his innocence, and who I'm told is now likely brain damaged due to a beating he received on the street. Were you going out with Robert Delaronde at that time? No. Well, um, Carrie went missing in October and I didn't technically start dating Robert till December. We were talking about it. He had said that he had had a party that night and there was a lot of people

there. There were so many people there, you couldn't really keep a track who was coming in and out. But he did notice for, he said by the time he noticed that Carlton and another guy had been gone for a long time, they were back. And the other guy that was with Carlton Jackson at the party, do you remember his name? You know what? I can't remember. Okay. Right? So that kind of stuck out in his mind. And I guess Carlton had said, hey, if anybody asks, I was here all night.

And he said, sure. He just assumed maybe Carlton had been messing around on his girlfriend or whatever. He never thought it was something that serious. Until there was talk that this girl was missing and then she was murdered. Then he was upset that maybe Carlton had something to do with it. Do you know if Robert ever confronted Carlton Jackson about Carrie's murder? I don't know. He never did tell me that.

The story of Carlton Jackson telling Robert Delaron to vouch for him at Delaron's party, while compelling sounding, strikes me as a bit strange, since my understanding is that Robert and Carlton were not friends, and in fact were often at odds. Later, Heather tells me some possible names of the men who she thinks may have left the party with Carlton, and I'm looking into it. So did you ever have any inkling that Robert Delleron might have been involved in any way, or how do you see... Absolutely, absolutely not. Like like I said he knew right off the get-go she was my friend and every time that he had a mental breakdown he told me stuff

so Heather you had been with Robert for a few years then yes Yes. Okay. Okay. And in that time, was he ever violent with you? Um, he was a big guy. I knew he could, he could, he could fight just about anybody he wanted to. So I guess the fear was there that he could hurt me or he could inflict pain on me, but he didn't. You know what I mean? But we really didn't know a whole lot about the illness at that time. There was so much stigma. Nobody talked about being mentally ill because he was quite the hockey star and he was quite the popular person. And then he became sick.

He felt very low about himself. And he didn't like the fact that people knew he was not right in the head. And I think, I'm sure that's why he took his own life. Do you remember if he had ever had his DNA taken by police? They asked me. They questioned me in 1997 when they reopened the case and did all those DNA testing. If I had a shrine, basically, if I had some of his clothing, a brush, anything that would have his DNA on it. Oh, that's interesting. And did you? No. No, I have a child. That's it.

Well, so did you give them a sample from your child? No, I have a child, that's it. Well, so did you give them a sample from your child? No, I did not. I have asked, and police won't speak about the DNA collected for this case. Trevor recalls the police telling him that they had thoroughly looked into Robert Delaronde. And police also questioned Carlton Jackson thoroughly, according to Jim and Trevor's memories of the days following Carrie's murder. I'd like to hear more about this party that Delaronde told people he had that night. Craig Delaronde was only 12 years old at the time and out of town, but he and his brother Robert did have older sisters. And according to Heather, Robert was close to his sisters and may have told them more about what he knew.

Hello? Oh, hi, Cheryl. It's Dave Ridgen calling. Hi, how are you? I call Robert Delaron's sister, Cheryl. Craig was saying that you might have some awareness of where your brother Robert was that night because Craig said Robert had had a party. Yeah I believe that he did have a party that night like I remember this was quite a few years ago like um but um he did say that he was having a party a few people

that were there but I really didn't pay attention because like because I really wasn't at my brother's party either. I wasn't there. So did your brother Robert ever talk to you about Kerry Brown? He mentioned it. Sometimes he would be high. He would say he knows who killed Kerry. He didn't go into detail or anything like that. He just said he knew who killed Carrie Brown.

It was Carlton. He would always say Carlton Jackson and stuff. So he would always say that Carlton Jackson was the person who killed Carrie. Yeah, he'd always say that. But proof, I don't have no proof. All I have is what he would say. He did say something in passing about him having a party and something about Carlton asking him to uh be a an alibi for him or something like this but because his thoughts were racing like that all the time. I wasn't sure whether he was being truthful

or whether this is, you know, his truth or what it was. Like, I really, I couldn't say. Did police ever come to you and talk to you about that evening or Robert or your brother or anything? Not until years later. My brother had already killed himself and police brought me in and asked me some questions wanted to ask some questions do you remember if the police ever actually successfully took dna from your brother

or your parents or anyone else in your family no no definitely not like unless they did it on the side to my brother they could have who knows but you would certainly have remembered if they took your dna and you know you're saying that you know for a fact that police never took anybody else in your family's DNA, nor did they take Robert's. No, no, because my brother was already dead for how many years? Like that's what, 1986, and my brother was 26 when he hung himself. So six years have passed, and then they're thinking it's my brother. So I just don't want to give you false information of any sort. Like I don't want to give you false hope or anything and I'm hoping

that... I like Cheryl's openness. Cases could be solved faster if everyone spoke so freely. I wonder if she knows how I might reach Carlton Jackson. Do you know any way I could reach Carlton Jackson? I know he's very sick or has been in a fight and in a vegetative state, people are saying. But does he have any relatives that you know of? Or does he speak to anybody that you know of? Well, I happened to bump into Carlton in Winnipeg when I was living there. And I guess he had moved to Winnipeg after he got that big beating from, I don't know who did it, but he just stopped me, like I was downtown, and he just asked how I was doing. I said I'm fine. I asked how he was doing.

He said he was fine and stuff. He recognized you and spoke to you? Yeah, he did. You didn't notice anything abnormal about him? I did not. So maybe I can speak to Carlton Jackson after all, if I can find him. I call his uncle Clarence to see if he can help. So I'm just wondering if you were able to tell me how I can get in touch.

I haven't heard of that guy for years now. I don't know if he still lives in Winnipeg or where he lives. Okay. Is Carlton able to speak properly? Like I heard he was in a fight or something. Is he okay? That was when he was more or less beaten up on someplace in town here. I don't know. I don't know his problem health-wise or anything. Was he able to talk normally to you and speak normally? Well, he...

Well, he was somewhat incoherent at times. Okay. I managed to track down one of the males Heather McIver remembers as possibly being with Carlton at the Delaronde party, but he says he cannot remember anything about it,

though does remember attending parties at what he called Delaronde's small apartment. Finishing up with Cheryl Delaronde, she tells me a story that Trevor has also told me, but from her perspective. Like, I really feel for Trevor, because I remember when I first moved back to Thompson, like, you know, I remember him talking to somebody face-to-face, and I was in a restaurant, the same restaurant, and I just kept hearing my brother's name being thrown around and stuff. And I was just like, you know, I felt really, I had to defend my brother. He's dead. He can't speak for himself.

So I turned around and I looked at the two men and I just said, can you please stop talking about my brother? Just stop it. And then I just turned around and I could feel my tears coming down and stuff. And then all of a sudden, Trevor said, Carrie was my sister. And I just felt my heart just drop right to my stomach. And I just felt like this sadness sleep over me and I'm getting

emotional now. And I just thought like, oh my God, I didn't even know who he was. And, you know, he's just so broken. And I can just feel his pain. And I just, like, you know, I realized, like, you know, when he said that, I just said, I'm sorry. And I just whispered, I just felt weak. And I turned around and I couldn't eat my breakfast. I can't imagine his pain. But I pray for him, and I hope that they do find the people, the person, or whatever, whoever did this, that they have to pay for what they've done. Delaronde and Jackson and Bonnier. Incomplete, third-hand, intriguing.

Circumstantial story fragments leading where? Perhaps talking about these details can bring back new information. Who was the RCMP member that Marnie's caller was looking for? What about the males in the van who attacked the RCMP officer? What's their story? Whether police looked into some of this more fully than has been indicated is unknown. Is Sumner still in the mix for them as he was for so long? Has Fred Spence been questioned?

I'm going to continue to investigate and follow any leads that I can. People need to keep coming forward, keep telling their versions of events, and keep listening to each other. You have been listening to Season 5 Bonus. I was here all night. If you wish to submit an anonymous tip about Carrie Brown's murder, visit cbc.ca slash sks or email the show at sks at cbc.ca. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by David Ridgen. The series is mixed by Cecil Fernandez

with help from Mitch Stewart and produced by Chris Oak, Steph Kampf, Amal Delich, Eunice Kim, Mikal Arana, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Original music by David Fetterman.

Our theme song is Thompson Girl by the Tragically Hip. Thompson Girl, we're down to the dead house plan. Thompson Girl, we jettison everything we can She says springtime's coming Wait till you see it Broken through with them shoots of beauty It's the end of animal view weather It's time to end this siege together

Thompson Girl Thompson Girl Thompson Girl Thompson Girl Anyhow, you think that episodes were representative of what you thought you would hear? Yeah, my voice sounds funny. I sound funny on recording. It's fine, though. No, it's fine. I like your comments. He seems to speak as quickly as he thinks. I also love your quote.

It looks like a country music star or a couple of albums past its prime. Not a headbanger, not a washed-up rock star. No, you don't look like... A country music star. At least you could have went with rock star.