Someone Knows Something - S6 Episode 2: Pitfire

Episode Date: May 18, 2020

Debra notices a man repeatedly named in Donnie’s case file as a potential witness. Yet police never spoke to him. Could he be the key to finding out what happened to Donnie? For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/someone-knows-something-season-6-donald-izzett-jr-transcripts-listen-1.5558068

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This is Season 6, Episode 2, Pitfire. You're listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. This is Season 6, Episode 2, Pitfire. This is Donnie's. It's one of my favorite shirts that he wore. I have pictures of him in it and it's the only thing I have left, clothing-wise. I'm sitting with Debra in her kitchen, and she's just held up a medium-sized, blue-and-white denim shirt

that she's unconsciously pressing to her heart. And he was probably, like, I don't know, 10, maybe 12 years old something like that when we were for years I slept with it and then I put it away in a bag because I felt like I was losing the scent from it and then after years I ended up washing it because I couldn't smell it anymore. And then every trip to Mississippi, I bring it with me and sleep with it and hold it. And I just feel, I don't know that he's with me. Deborah hands me the shirt, and I think she wants me to smell it.

So, awkwardly, I do. Part of the reason I was drawn to Donnie's case is Deborah's absolute dedication to solving it and the connection she had with her son through things like this shirt. The notion that nothing else in the world matters to Deborah, even at the cost of her own health. I had a very, very big case of panic attacks years ago, they had thought they found Donnie, and we were waiting for the DNA results of what they had taken from me to match with this John Doe that they had in, I think it was Georgia. And the profiler was 99% sure that it was Donnie.

And it was a long process, but anyway. I was actually praying that John knew that we were waiting on him with Donnie because I knew in my heart that Donnie was dead and I just wanted it all to be over. But it wasn't over. The DNA didn't match and Deborah's panic attacks got worse. I'd have to stay outside of my house on the patio during the night because I couldn't be inside with the doors closed.

And I started smelling smoke, and it was during the night. I always wake up during the night smelling smoke. It continued to where I could be anywhere. And it was just happening all the time. So I went to the doctor, and he said that sometimes that happens. You know, it's like a traumatic thing in somebody's life that they'll smell some type of a scent. He said a lot of people get the scent of flowers,

but mine happened to be smoke. He gave me nasal sprays. He gave me all this different stuff. And then I had went down to get Donnie's case file, and crazy as it sounds, when I started working on his file and all that, that scent stopped. Deborah folds Donnie's shirt, places it on a nearby chair, and we're back to work.

It's late and we're both tired, but we're going through some of those files she received from Maryland police. In the case file, it says that Shane reports that he flew a friend in and he spent, I don't know, like a week or something like that in Mississippi and it was the same time frame that Donnie was there. That friend of Shane's was Kyle Barnes,

the man who police say in these documents could be the key to Donnie's case, the man they never interviewed for over 20 years. Anything to do with Kyle? You have them marked? I guess it's out of order. It's a picture of Kyle and Donnie. Deborah shows me the shot of Kyle Barnes standing with Donnie. I've seen it before, Kyle looking very happy to be there, but Donnie somewhat less so. But photos can change as you get more information about the people in them.

This picture was allegedly taken in Kyle's dorm room in California before Donnie left on his road trip and was the first time Donnie ever met Kyle. I stare at it for a long time as Debra puffs on her vape. Could Kyle actually know something? With the promise of any possible new information he might have had, Deborah started looking for him. I started sending Kyle messages on Facebook Messenger that he never saw. So I thought, okay, he doesn't use this. So I reached out to his brother.

And I kept emailing the brother until he answered me. He said he would talk to Kyle and he'd have him call me. And still have all those messages from his brother and everything that I said. So I continued doing this for months. And finally, he did have Kyle call me. Hi, how are you? I'm good. I've been just busy. I used that phone conversation to get a feel for Kyle to know how to approach him. And I just explained to Kyle that, you know,

who I was and talked to him about Donnie. And he remembered meeting Donnie. I just met him once. I met him once. That was it. I met him one time. Donnie was there for a couple days, and Shane and Donnie had left. I don't even think he remembered where they went at the time, but he didn't know anything. He didn't know Donnie was missing. He didn't know anything. I felt different. I felt he was nervous. I could tell he knew something. I could tell. Deborah says Kyle was difficult to understand at first, speaking quickly and clipped.

But because of her gut feeling that Kyle knew more, she resisted the urge to try to force anything out of him. I wanted to take things really slow. I didn't want to scare him off. And he asked me what I felt happened. And, you know, talked about how long I've been searching for Donnie and all that. And he said something along the lines like, let me think about things and try to remember stuff and whatever. And I said, please

do. I said, you know, we could talk tomorrow. And, and I knew without a shadow of a doubt, I knew, I don't know how to explain. I knew he would, I knew he, I believed he'd call me back. I really, truly did. And it was that same day. It was hours later. We talked again. When I first called Deborah the first night I actually told her that story that we went back to New Orleans to look for Donnie. And then after getting off the phone with her I was just crying, thinking, oh my god, I know how she must feel and I know that I just had lied to her and I just couldn't do it.

So I called her back and I just had to tell her what had happened, you know, the truth. And that's kind of how this whole thing started two years ago. Kyle Barnes, age 45. She had reached out to my brother and my brother had contacted me. I'm talking to him as he sits in a rental car parked outside a discount chain hotel in southern Mississippi. Kyle's short, bald, wearing a ripped tank top and red baseball cap, shorts and flip-flops, and speaking here publicly for the first time. He grew up in Sacramento, California, a top student, school president, an organizer of people popular with friends, according to those who knew him. But it's taken him over 20 years to talk, after Debra found him.

And she's right about something else. Kyle has a densely agitated manner of speaking that takes some getting used to. I asked him what it's like talking to Debra. She's been great. We actually got a really good bond together. We talk, gosh, at least once or twice a month. I feel really close with her. You know, I feel almost like she's a second mom to me. You know, she's been really great, and I just

can't imagine how she feels. And no one ever contacted me until Deborah. I mean, it's crazy, because everyone knew that I'd been there. No one ever asked me, because I think I'm a really bad liar. I always have been, so I think the police would have seen right away that something was up. I'm not. I'm not a very good liar.

People tell you that. How do you hold on to that for, what is it, 20 years? I thought about if that was my mom, I'd want her to know about it. She needed to know what happened. Deborah's careful patience with Kyle paid off almost immediately. Over the following calls, he began telling Debra things that, for her and police, would forever reshape the course of Donnie's case.

Kyle called me and told me that Shane did kill my son. And he told me that Shane shot Donald in the back. So basically, from what I know, is that he shot him on the lawn, you know, in the back, and Donnie bled out on the lawn. He said that Shane told him the reason why he did it, that if he couldn't have him, nobody else could either. I've worked on cases before where a person who's killed someone voluntarily admits to the killing,

and then eventually goes to jail for it. But I've also heard of cases of false confession, where for whatever reason, a story is conjured by a person and they confess to the falsehood. But in my experience, it's rarer that someone uncoerced confesses to being an accessory if they had nothing to do with a murder. The words out of Shane's mouth, it was like, if I can't have you, then no one can have you.

And then just watched him die. He told me he was sorry many times for not coming forth. He couldn't understand why the police never ever reached out to him that one time. I, of course, said I didn't understand that either, and he said that Shane had told him that nobody would even be looking for Donnie, basically not to worry about it. And he told me he had looked online and saw the stories about Donald

and we agreed, we hung up with saying that he would help any way he could and kept saying he was sorry and that we would talk again. When he tells me something, it's shocking. I have to not react on what I want to say and do and more of a praise and, well, that had to be hard for you to say that, admit to that. Thank you for being honest. And it's, I think that's what's been able to save the relationship to get it. Because I hate myself hearing myself talk to him. I don't know how I did it.

Well, you did it because you want the information. So you'll do whatever you can. You got the information. Oh, and it keeps coming just when I think that nothing else can happen it does there's another call and then something more happens and then something more and more according to police documents Shane picked up Kyle in New Orleans and drove him to Macomb Mississippi so did you have any inkling or any idea

that when you were driving from New Orleans to Macomb with Shane, what was going to happen when you got out at the other end? No, actually, he was really upset and crying, saying that Donnie had left him and that he was upset about it. But when we got to Macomb, he said that he did something bad, not to freak out kind of thing, that he needed my help. And then that's when he opened up the trunk. And then Kyle had confessed to, yes, there's something I haven't told you.

He, for the first time, told me that Donnie was in the trunk of the car and that he did see Donnie's body and that was the first time I had learned that. Kyle says Shane picked him up in a large 1980s-style sedan and drove him to an estate near Macomb, a property owned by Shane's family. Once there, Shane led Kyle to his parked green Miata and showed him Donnie's body stuffed into the trunk.

Kyle says Shane told him he'd shot Donnie three times in the back. Until Shane opened the trunk, Kyle says he thought Shane was upset because he had just broken up with Donnie. At that time, the whole way to Macomb, I was telling him how I'll be there for him, I'm going to help him, I'll support him. Kind of tell him, hey, I'll be there for him I'm gonna help him I'll support him kind of tell him hey I'll be there for you don't worry we'll get through this so when he opened the trunk I kind of was like I had already committed so much to like helping him I I kind of I don't know if I came numb or whatever to it I didn't think about it being anything that's it was weird

it was let me see how we can fix the problem now, at that point, and not think about the problem, but it was just, let's see how we can fix it. Fix the problem without thinking about it, Kyle says. Find a solution. Help his friend Shane. He originally talked about burying him underneath the garage, and that's not a good idea.

People are usually going to be able to find him. Kyle then goes on to tell Debra one of the most important details of his story, that Shane burned Donnie's body, and Kyle helped. So the idea was then to dispose of the in a way where like people couldn't find it and that's where the burning of the body had come from and Basically, it was that night from time we got there like around 9 to 10 o'clock at night until the next morning is when that whole the fire and everything happened and The fire was really hot it was 15 to 20 feet high,

and it burnt all night with gasoline and wood and everything else on top of it. And then afterwards, did Shane try to tell you anything about what to say or not to say? Yeah, no, we talked about it on the way in that we were going to say that we went back to Mississippi, that I came out there, obviously, to hang out with Shane. Then we drove to New Orleans the next night, and we went to clubs to look for him, we couldn't find him,

and then I ended up flying out the next day, that was the story that we were going with, that's the story you told the police back then, you know, so yeah, that was, and I've obviously, I've had my substance abuse problems, I've had drug problems because of hiding things, or trying to escape my feelings, and obviously, this has probably been the biggest one of why I have always wanted to like be high or drink or do something else to get my mind off of things. It's just that was like 20 years ago now. I mean, if someone hadn't contacted you, would you have come and told anybody the story? I had put it out of my mind. Like I said, I didn't even really

think it was real for long. I almost thought it was a nightmare. When I looked up missing persons and put Donnie's name in, I saw it online. And literally, my stomach just sank. And I just was like, this is actually real. I had done a really good job at like putting it out of my mind for so long. I'm still trying to get

back memories of what happened. I mean, what happened? It's crazy. Interesting old place. Looks like a movie set. The wood in that house was imported from England. And this is Dr. Noble's estate up here, straight ahead past this wooden fence. Deborah's driving just south of Macomb, Mississippi, and it's oppressively hot outside. She's just turned off a highway into what used to be an extended family estate property. Kyle remembers that the first time he was here, that the driveway that goes around there was not here at that time. We follow a narrow, windy road past several mansions,

through steamy groves of magnolia, sycamore and water oak, all covered in resurrection ferns and hanging mosses. At the end of the road, the house we're heading toward, a low-slung bungalow with a pool, weed-invaded tennis court and what appears to be an old ranch. One with a growing story emerging from it fed by kyle barnes this is the place where he says he was brought by shane gunther and shown donnie's body in the trunk of a car and then the place somewhere on its many acres where donnie's body was burned

but could kyle have been involved in more than the burning? Something so horrible happened. Deborah's convinced something horrible happened here and so too seemed to be the police. After Deborah found Kyle, the main thrust of the investigation into the Izzet case passed from from Maryland State Investigators to the Pike County Sheriff's Office in Mississippi. Kyle's been brought here by Mississippi police for a hypnotism session and to tell them more about what he knows. Deborah pulls past the bungalow and drives down a stony driveway toward two white-sided cottages.

The one on the right looks like a small guest house. The one on the left has a rotting wooden ramp leading up into a garage or carport. Pulled up next to it, an empty black police SUV with government written on the plate. There's Lucky Dog. There he There's Lucky Dog. There he is. We park and get out near the cottages. A small, hot-looking border collie-type dog approaches from a treed area down a hill on our right.

Hi, baby. Hi. How are you? Hi. Taking care of daddy? Beyond the panting dog, the trees meet a distant open field, and at that juncture there's an old barn, actually a farmer's drive shed with one open side and stalls, where tractors and farm tools would have been parked in more active days. Far over to the right of the property, what looks like a huge person-made pond, several acres in size. This property used to be owned by Shane Gunther's family, but now it's owned by Dr. Jim Nobles, a gynecologist who practices in southern Mississippi. Lucky Dog is one of Dr. Noble's two dogs. The other one named Bella was recently killed and eaten by a coyote on the property.

Look how fast you're walking. How you doing there? Great. You look good. You're walking fast. A man approaches from the direction of the main house. It's Dr. Nobles. Average height and balding with a deeply weathered southern blush. Nobles is originally from New Orleans. He recently broke his back after falling into his empty pool during maintenance and he's been off work to recover. That's amazing.

Someone had a broken back and all that. Hi, I'm Dave Rid Richard. Nice to meet you. Great property out here. Oh, thank you. I love it. After my wife died, I said, you know, the kids wanted me to get rid of and sell it. And move into something smaller. And I said, I love it out here. It's gorgeous.

But anyway, I'm going back to work January 2nd. I said, at least I'll throw myself back in. And I have something to keep me busy. So, but anyway, any way we could be of help, you know, just let me know. Dr. Nobles knows about Donnie's case and has generously allowed Deborah onto the property. Nobles has his own connection to loss. I mean, I lost my son. He was a brain surgeon and he died of an accident. So I know he just lost a child, but we had closure. It was an accident, and we knew. As soon as Dr. Nobles heard about Donnie's case, he put his whole property virtually at Deborah's disposal. And it's a shame, because my heart goes out to her, you know, and then put this guy away that did it evil, you know.

If y'all want, why don't you take your car and go pull it down there? It'll be a lot closer, you know. Thank you. Dr. Nobles points off down the slope to the right toward the barn where he thinks we should park and heads back toward his house. There's another man walking up the slope from down near the barn. It's Truett Simmons, the investigator for the Pike County District Attorney's Office. He waves at Deborah, but Deborah's attention is on the pool behind the house Dr. Nobles is heading toward. It has a blue plastic slide surrounded by a low fence with a gate. According to Kyle's conversation, confession, he said that Shane and Donnie were laying

at the pool and they got into an argument and Donnie said that he was leaving and started walking away back to where the car was parked down at the end of the driveway here at the guest house. So the back gate, this might be the gate that Donnie would have walked out of then right here. Truett approaches. He's in his mid-60s with white beard, glasses, and dressed in plainclothes. He steps toward his mid-sixties with white beard, glasses, and dressed in plain clothes. He steps toward Deborah with a smile.

I'm fixing to go pick up Kyle. He's in the guest house where we do the hypnosis. Kyle's hypnosis session, guided by psychologist Dr. Pat Brawley, has just finished, and Debra wasn't allowed to attend, even though Truett is normally as open as possible with Debra about Donnie's case. The two have grown close in the short time they've known each other. Later, I interviewed Truett about this when he was just recovering from a surgery on his vocal cords, so over the course of our interviews he can sound a bit hoarse. What's important to realize, I think, is that we would not actually be where we are

with it, even though we're nowhere near where we need to be. Had it not been for Deborah's persistence and making contact with Kyle Barnes, who over time relayed to her information that led the case to McComb. I also asked him at the time what he thought of Kyle. Kyle Barnes, he's a smart man. He's not a dummy.

He's not ignorant. He's educated. And he's got reasonably good sense. His logic ain't exactly what I consider logical all the time, but he has stuck with his story, you know. Back to Dr. Noble's farm. Truett takes a few steps toward the cottages to retrieve Kyle from his hypnosis session,

but Deborah holds him back, trying to find out anything she can about what went on with the hypnotist behind closed doors. Do you feel pretty good about today? I do. I'm going to see what this evaluation tells us, which will go a long ways toward his veracity and truthfulness. The location where Kyle says Donnie's remains were burned is the top priority for Deborah and police, along with the basic, yet overarching questions about Kyle. Is he being truthful

and how much of that truth has he told so far? Let me get on my way. Yeah, I honestly won't be in the way. Truett disappears into the guest cottage and a short time later appears with Kyle at his side. Another man with a badge and a gun on his belt follows along. John Glapion, a detective from the Pike County Sheriff's Department. See the old fence Sheriff's Department. See the old fence post?

Yeah. Right up here. Glapion nods and continues past Deborah with Kyle, walking down the slope toward the barn where Lucky Dog came from. Glapion is questioning Kyle as he goes, and he and Truett don't seem to have any problem with Deborah following along and listening. Detective Glapion. and he and Truett don't seem to have any problem with Deborah following along and listening. Detective Glapion.

So is it kind of refreshing your memory or anything? It's not too bad, I guess. It's still hard to remember way back when, but I do remember the trees. Lots of trees. And that sound of crickets and everything in the forest. That night, I remember a lot of this. You have to realize back then, it was a lot more trees. Yeah, a lot more trees.

Glapion questions Kyle about Shane and the drive from the New Orleans airport to this property back in 1995. What was the conversation? What did Shane exactly say? He said that he was upset, crying. At the time I was actually excited to come to New Orleans because I'd never been to New Orleans. I was like, oh cool, I get to go to the French Quarter, I get to go to the gay been to New Orleans. So I was like, oh, cool, I get to go to the French Quarter, or I get to go to the gay clubs in New Orleans. So when he asked me to come out, I was like, oh, sure, yeah, great, let's go. What was your guy's conversation once he picked you up from the airport? He was just upset and crying. Did you ask him why he was crying?

He said it was because Donnie had left him. But we talked about school until we got out here. Okay, so once you guys made it to this property, what did he say then? He said that he had something to tell me, that he had done something not to freak out. I'm not sure exactly the words, but it was like Shane had wanted to tell me something had happened. According to Kyle, Shane's demeanour changes upon arriving at the property. He tells Kyle not to freak out, but that he didn't take Donnie back to New Orleans. Instead, he'd shot him.

And that he said he had not dropped Donnie off in New Orleans, and that something had happened and that he'd shot him. And then he opened up the trunk. And then I saw his body, and that's when I was like, Oh, shit. Strangely, Kyle says at that moment, when he saw Donnie's six-foot-something frame stuffed into the tiny Miata trunk, he didn't panic.

Did you panic? Did you... I did not panic. I was numb. He said he needed my help, obviously, to figure out what to do. And at that point, we talked about burying the body underneath the house over here, the carport area. We then said that was not a good idea. Here, Kyle gestures toward the cottage he just came from,

the one with the wooden ramp leading up to the old carport. Deborah remains silent close by, taking it all in. We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga, capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music, and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today. This brand new series, created by Visit Mississauga, celebrates a city 50 years in the making, paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse, and dynamic third largest city. Tune in

to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, to learn more. Available now on CBZ Listen. Are you sure you parked over here? Do you see it anywhere? I think it's back this way. Come on. Hey, you're going the wrong way. Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Whether renting, considering buying a home, or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. Did you think it was wrong at any point and you guys need to tell somebody?

You know, at that point, that's what I should have done and I didn't. Honestly, I was thinking, how can I help him make this go away? Because he's my best friend, you know, and it was, okay, well, let's see how I can help you with the situation. I don't know. I didn't think about consequences of it at that point. All right, back to the trunk of the vehicle. When he opened up the trunk, what was Donnie wearing?

He wasn't wearing anything. Donnie was naked in the trunk. Kyle says Shane shot Donnie in the back by the pool as he was walking away from him toward the car. He was naked when he was in the trunk. He said that he shot him when he was walking back towards the car, which the car was supposedly over here, by the carport or wherever,

and that Donnie bled out right over there, probably by the tennis court or somewhere close to the tennis court area. Donnie sitting by the pool with Shane, the argument, the walk-away shooting, Donnie bleeding out and dying slowly by the tennis court. All these details Kyle says he allegedly heard from Shane after he arrived on the property. Had his body started decaying? Did rigor mortis set in or was he stiff? He was a little bit stiff when we were trying to get him out of the trunk.

But there was no smell. I hadn't started to smell yet. Kyle says he didn't detect a smell from Donnie's body, so surmises that he must have been shot relatively recently, likely, Kyle thinks, during the day before he arrived. It was obviously, he was was trying to get him out. So do you believe Shane killed Tim earlier that day and then you came out that night? Or do you believe he killed Tim the following day and you came out the next day?

I think he must have killed him the day prior to me flying out because their body hadn't started to smell yet. It would have had to have been during the day, obviously, because they were laying out by the pool. Depending on several factors, including temperature, bacterial action in decaying bodies can start to create notable smells between two and five days after death. So, it must have been the day before. I didn't fly until the next morning, or actually afternoon, because by the time I got out here, it was actually night. So it must have been almost a whole 24 hours at least.

Once you guys got him out of the trunk, you placed him on the burn pile, you said the fire burnt for about 8 hours, 12 hours? Yeah, at least 8 hours. It started around midnight. Kyle says they started burning Donnie's body around midnight and that it went on for at least eight hours. Was Shane a violent person? Not that I know. I mean, he was abusive verbally to people.

But I never knew him to be violent. Kyle says repeatedly that he and Shane were best friends. But I never knew him to, like, be violent, you know. But, you know. Kyle says repeatedly that he and Shane were best friends and spent the two years before Shane even met Donnie hanging around and working out together. Shane used to call Kyle a crippled fat fuck because at one time Kyle was overweight and had been using crutches. Kyle says he and Shane even planned to live together in West Hollywood and that Shane was with him

in Washington, D.C. for a while, and that that's where Shane eventually met Donnie. Did Shane tell you what type of weapon he used? I know it was that. Did he say, was it a nine millimeter or 22? It was a.22. How do you know that? Well, he said that.

He says it's a... We definitely got some questions. I know, I know, I know, definitely. Truett points to the barn and looks at Kyle, who understands the implied question. They need him to remember where the burn pile was. I really don't remember the burn pile was. I really don't remember the barn that much. That's what's really weird.

I don't remember the barn being that close to the burn pile. I'm gonna spur your memory a little bit. Okay. You told Debra in a telephone conversation that you were about 50 or 60 feet. And I don't remember if you said from the barn or the building. The building, yeah. Okay.

Now, when we identified that there was a burn pile here, you measure back to that building that's about... 50 feet. Well, it's about close to 80 feet. They move closer to the barn area. In the field next to the barn, a straight, narrow and shallow trench has been dug, about 100 feet long and 2 feet wide. Blue and orange plastic flags dot the landscape.

This is where a dig was conducted by police, and based on magnetometer readings and overhead photos, they dug in a straight cross-section over where they surmised burn piles might have been. Dogs were also brought in to sniff here and around the area in general, but nothing of note was found, save for some obvious pig bones, presumably left over from a barbecue. And this brings us around to why police put Kyle under hypnosis. Because they feel they don't have his full story.

Like I said, it was a big burn. It was 10 feet by 10 feet at least. I mean, you know. You know, earlier I said the body was in the carport when he showed it to me. Maybe I was wrong. The car might have been parked there. While Kyle's story has stayed mostly the same, some inconsistencies become apparent as he continues throughout the day.

Previously, Kyle had remembered Shane showing him Donnie's body in the trunk of the Miata as it was parked in the guesthouse carport. But now, because of the way Kyle remembers Shane backing the car out and turning toward the burn pile, he believes the Miata was parked in the barn, much closer to the area where historic burns have been located. So the areas that you're talking about, Kyle, can you show me? Sensing her opportunity, Debra has questions of her own.

Yeah, the burn pile was here. I actually thought, I remember him backing up and then driving, turning to the right. So you're saying when you got here, the car was here in the barn? Yeah. We parked the car that he drove in with over there, and I guess we walked out here. Maybe we parked the car somewhere right at the end. Grandmother's car that you came in. Yeah, we parked it there, and then we walked up here to the barn, I guess. I mean, that's reasonable.

Can you mention something about someone taking a shovel, breaking up some bones? So, Shane had taken a shovel and smashed the bones after, like, there were... I saw a skull at one point. I saw some bones. He took the shovel, smashed them, and it became just ash. It was just, there was nothing that, it literally was just ash left. There was no flat. Deborah is suddenly overcome by some tears and tries to cover them up with a puff on her vape.

But she recovers quickly, not wanting to distract Kyle. It was flat, too. It burned for eight hours, nine hours. Really hot, obviously. You just have ember. Really, when you burn a fire, there's nothing left at the end. That's what it looked like. It looked like just a regular fire that had been, you know. Rather than show Kyle how his words are tearing at her inside, Deborah instead pushes into it, asking Kyle for more information about an alleged coffee can in Shane's possession with ashes in it that Kyle has told her about. Kyle says that many months later,

Shane showed him a coffee can at a storage unit rented by Shane's father and that Shane said the ashes inside were Donnie's. Kyle, they called the can. Was it his, I know you said his dad's, but was it his storage unit there? No, it was a separate storage unit that had like, um, one of those self-storage units. That you rent? Yeah, you rent the storage unit. And it was an Oceanside off of, uh, one...

Was that the first time you knew that he had saved any ashes? He told me that, and after, I never saw it again. And he told you that this was Donnie? Yep. Questions about the burn pile, its location, and potentially finding Donnie's remains continue, but... Was it a.22 revolver? I've gone through it like four times already today. Kyle's getting tired, so they decide to take a break to get out of the sun and regroup.

Kyle moves off to be on his own. Deborah Truitt and Detective Glapion huddle in the shade, drinking cold water and talking over various theories. I'm just saying, you just have to be real careful with God. And when I say careful, not that he's not that he's necessarily lying, it's that he's saying things that sounds like, oh my God, he really knows what he's talking about when in fact he doesn't. But he has been consistent. Do you believe that he didn't know until Shane opened up the trunk?

I really don't believe that. Now the problem is what he's lying about. There are some lies in there. And he's using the lack of memory to cover it up. I believe, but we'll see. I believe he's telling the truth, but not all the truth. I think you're probably lying. Now, see, his answer, polygraph response to, were you present when Donnie was killed?

His answer was no. And it didn't show deception on that. You know, I tried to keep an open mind, but I was sitting saying, yeah, sure, you weren't here. I mean, he could have been here, but I mean, he could have been not present when it happened. He could have been inside the house. He could have been somewhere else. He could have been walking somewhere.

So the answer would be true. I wasn't present, but then he was here. He's asked me point blank if he was going to go to jail, and I told him, yes, you will. You will be arrested. And you're going to go to jail now for how long? I don't know. I said, but you keep cooperating. If everything you tell us is true, you're going to get consideration,

and it may not be for a long time. He's resigned to that fact. He knows now that Donnie bled out over by the tennis court. That's something new I never heard, unless you have. I've heard that. But there again, you push him on that, and I say, okay, so you were there. You thought, no, no, how do you know?

Shane told me that. Could be just as easily true as not. You know, it, you know, no, no, how do you know it wasn't Shane told me that? It could be just as easily true as not, you know. But there again, that falls in the category, does he know that because he was there and he watched it or is he repeating what Shane said? Or did Kyle do it? Kyle walks over to Debra and hugs her. She doesn't look comfortable with it and later she asks the detectives in private if one of them will ask Kyle to never hug her again. Bizarre.

Here we can find something, some fragment, something. Now that we have a better idea. At the end of the day, after everyone else has departed, Truett has some parting words for Debra. I don't know, I'm getting real concerned with

Kyle. You know, too many people around him. He's involved in this. Things go where we can end up getting arrested. No, this is 100% of what you're saying. I have concerns about, you know, all the contact that you've had with him only because it's setting you up as a good witness for the defense. For example, on the stand, Miss Kelly, is it not true that you've been talking to Kyle Barnes? Your answer?

Yes, I have. Yes, I have. Is it not true that you've been talking with Kyle Barnes about my client, Shane Gunther? Yes. Yes. And about what happened? But I did talk to him. Isn't it true? I mean, you see where I'm coming from? Isn't it true that you planted, that you gave information to Kyle Barnes? Now, this may or may not be true, but it's going to gave information to Kyle Barnes, now this may or may not be true, but it's gonna be as information of Kyle Barnes that led him to a particular description of what happened. Miss Kelly, how do you know that Kyle

Barnes didn't kill your son instead of my client Shane Gunther? And you planted in his head, you know those kinds kinds of things that I'm thinking way ahead, okay? Sure. So I'm having to be careful. With that said, Truett walks off to join the others, leaving Deborah alone. She approaches the area close to the barn where the burn pile or piles are supposed to have been. The small flags left behind by the previous police dig moving slightly in the hot breeze. She faces the ground. I just can't believe we're this close. You know, it's like I'm so close to where Donnie is. I have people say, you know, you need to move past this

and you know he's dead and accept it and move on. And they're not saying it to be mean, by no means, but I don't know how to explain to them that how do you move on, how do you finish grieving, how do you do any of that without answers? You can't. You can't. You're just in limbo. I don't understand how we could have come so far. We have all these answers and we're right here and just can't reach him. I used to have dreams for years where it's cold, it's really, really cold out and Donnie's

calling me, he asked me why I stopped looking for him and I keep telling him I didn't. I'm out in the woods and it's the same dream every time, but I'm out in the woods and he keeps saying I'm right here, I'm right here. I'm barefooted and I have just a t-shirt on and I'm on my hands and knees and I'm digging and I can almost touch him but I can never reach him well if any part of Donnie still remains here we'll find him Well, if any part of Donnie still remains here, we'll find him. That's the kind of comforting promise I usually try to avoid offering to family.

There's no way for me to know if or where Donnie might be, and Debra knows it. But for her, the hope is here, locked in the ground we're standing on. And the person with the key could be Kyle. Does he know more, and does he know that he knows more? And how can we get it out of him? Hello? This is Cynthia Spigen. Hi, Cynthia. How are you? Thanks so much for calling back.

Sure. And I never fail to call people back on these things, David. I have no comment at all. So no comment. And now I did try to speak to Shane West, and he did cite my lawyer. So I felt like I should go through you to see if you could offer us some kind of official statement on the case? No. No. Yeah. And you're not willing to comment? No.

In any way. In any way. Okay. You've been listening to Episode 2, Pitfire. Visit cbc.ca slash sks to learn more about the Donnie Izzett case. You can also join our Facebook group and follow us on Twitter at SKSCBC to discuss episodes with others and discover exclusive content. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written and produced by me, David Ridgen. The series is produced by Eunice Kim, Chris Oak and Cecil Fernandez, with help from Makala Rana and Emily Cannell. Tanya Springer is our senior producer, and the executive

producer of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani. Our theme song is I Once Was a Bird by Justin Bird. Down the dirt road Into the

cornfield I sat alone The sky was not blue and the earth did not bloom I could not fly anymore I once was a bird The mountains I climbed Were billows of blue