Someone Knows Something - S6 Episode 3: Frenemy

Episode Date: May 25, 2020

Detectives interrogate an apparent witness about his involvement in Donnie’s disappearance and question his credibility. Is he telling the truth or is there more to the story than he’s letting on? Meanwhile, David tracks down the witness’s family and friends to get to the bottom of his story. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/someone-knows-something-season-6-donald-izzett-jr-transcripts-listen-1.5558068

We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga, capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music, and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today. This brand new series, created by Visit Mississauga, celebrates a city 50 years in the making, paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse, and dynamic third largest city. Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, This is a CBC Podcast. You're listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts.

This is Season 6, Episode 3, Frenemy. You're listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. This is Season 6, Episode 3, Frenemy. but I'll say and do anything to get what I need for closure. And I wouldn't be a conservative mom if I didn't ask, can I go? I mean, you can go, but you wouldn't be allowed in the room. Deborah negotiating with Detective John Glapion to see if she can be present during a police interrogation of Kyle Barnes. Police think he may be concealing something, and Deborah and I have wondered if pushing Kyle on the details may cause him to reveal more there's cameras in the room there's audio in the

room so yeah you can actually see what's going on and hear what's going on in the room but we're not going to let you guys in there to do that okay so I guess we'll just drive in your car then. Is that you have a car here? Yeah. Okay. And I'll just go with you. Eventually, and unsurprisingly, given it's Deborah, police relent and she'll be allowed to witness the interrogation.

It's been a long and emotionally difficult trip to Mississippi so far and as we get into her car to drive to the Pike County Sheriff's Office, I ask Debra if she ever thinks she should take a break. She tells the story about why she can't. It's not that I've never, but one night I was out drinking and I was really like laughing and having a pretty good time and all that. I felt so guilty. How dare me?

And that was like eight years ago. And I left and never picked up another beer and never went out to a bar. I go for weeks and I don't even leave the house. The bare minimum Walmart, that's about it. People will say, you're so strong. I can't believe all this. Everything People will say, you're so strong. I can't believe all this, everything you've done. You're so strong. I thought you were going to... No, I'm not. No.

But if I'm not working on the case, I even feel guilty if a day goes by and I'm not messaging you this one, that one, trying to get the whatever, or searching something. I get so upset that I'm letting him down.

That's it. I'm trying to... I get so mad. I get mad to even cry about it. Deborah arrives at the Beige Police Station and enters an office jammed with investigative files and boxes on every surface. There she slumps down at a metal green desk belonging to one of the county detectives. She covers her face with her hands and remains like that for more than a minute,

Deborah's neon pink shirt seeming to glow brighter from her frustration. Then the flat-screen monitor on the desk in front of her sputters to life and she looks up. On the screen, Kyle in an interrogation room somewhere else in the same building, monitored by a corner mount camera. The room is the size of a jail cell, white painted concrete. Kyle sits at a desk that's pushed against a wall, hunkered over a piece of paper he seems to be reading. Detective John Glapion sits next to Kyle, close. You're not under arrest. You have the right to remain silent.

Truett Simmons is sitting somewhere off camera. Both are in crisp shirt and tie. The volume suddenly turns up. Do you understand your words? Okay, so you're willing to talk to us about what's going on right now? Yes. Okay. Kyle doesn't seem any more nervous than he normally appears. Would you consider yourself a competitive person or a laid-back person?

More competitive in some respects. I like to be the best at whatever I do. Kyle likes to be number one and the best at whatever he does. Okay, if you had a task to perform, would you try to perform the task yourself or would you try to persuade someone else to do it for you? I typically would do it myself

or I would get people to work with me on it, but I would normally lead the project. Like I would be, here's how I need your help in it. Here's what I need you to do, here's what I need, but I would be doing it. People come to you with their problems. If they got something they don't know how to work out, they always come to you and ask you for help. Earlier, Glapion talked about how his interview strategy depended on the personality type of the subject he was interrogating. Glapion thinks Kyle has a steadfast personality. Steadfast personality is like the moms of the group. People come to you to tell you their problems,

to help you figure out things. So that's why I believe that his buddy that he's trying to help with this incident, Shane, came to him, told him what was going on because he figured that he could help him. He's a steadfast personality. That's why when he's telling the story, he's constantly telling it the same way over and over and over. I'm going to ask you some questions. over and over and over.

With Shane Gunther refusing to give his side of the story, Kyle's version is what we have to work with. It's important to keep in mind that Shane may not have said or done any of the things Kyle suggests throughout any of his statements. Kyle says he first met Shane at a gay men's rap group. First time I met Shane was when I went to the gay men's rap group, and it was in January of 94. I think from there, Shane had invited me over to his place for, I'm not sure exactly, but we then started working out together. And then my junior year, I decided that I was going to do an internship in D.C.

Washington, D.C. So I went back to D.C. and had a place I was staying and doing an internship, and then Shane was bored. So he decided to come visit me in D.C. So he was living in the living room on the couch for the whole summer. Basically we stayed there for the whole summer going drinking. According to Kyle, Shane hung around drinking and working out with him in D.C. that whole summer. From all the stories I've read and heard about Shane thus far, it's clear that he's had access to a substantial supply of money,

mostly from a family inheritance, and doesn't seem to need to work. Then I went back to Santa Barbara, and at that point, Shane came back as well and pretended to go to school for a semester because he already had graduated or didn't have any classes to take. And then after the first semester, I think that's when Shane went back to D.C. for a little while. I'm not sure if he had an apartment back there. And then at some point he met Donnie back there at a club. Police interviews in Deborah's files corroborate that Shane met Donnie in a D.C. area bar, probably in late winter 1995. What did you meet Donnie?

I didn't meet Donnie until he came out to California with Shane. How long did you know Donnie before the incident? Maybe a couple weeks. Donnie I just met. This was in May of 1995 when they drove across country. They were driving back to Mississippi. Kyle says he knew that Shane and Donnie were driving to Mississippi and that he had heard that Shane wanted to get a couple of dogs. And he also says that before Shane left, he bought a plane ticket for Kyle for Kyle's birthday. Kyle was to fly to New Orleans to celebrate later in May.

Okay, so this is where it's getting kind of confusing to me. So Donnie and Shane left you in some place in California saying, look, we're on our way to Mississippi, but I'm gonna buy you a plane ticket because I want you to come to Mississippi as well. And Kyle says the original ticket that Shane bought for him was not the ticket he flew out on. Kyle says that Shane's call for his help spurred a new ticket being bought, this time by Shane's grandmother, so that Kyle could come out to Mississippi earlier than originally planned. All I know is that that was not the ticket that I flew on.

The ticket I flew on with Popeye's grandmother. Deborah hasn't moved or said anything since the interrogation started. She's waiting for any inkling of something new from Kyle. The information about the plane ticket isn't it. Glapion wants Kyle to tell them everything that happened Kyle, the information about the plane ticket isn't it. Glapion wants Kyle to tell them everything that happened from the time he left Santa Barbara, but Kyle says he doesn't remember the flight very much. I don't remember the flight too much.

I was looking at New Orleans from where we were driving. I remember looking at the road, looking at the thing. Was this daytime or nighttime? It was getting dark. It was almost nighttime, but not totally nighttime. Shane, he was talking about how Donnie left him, and he was crying, and they had a fight about him going out with those guys. At this point, Kyle says Shane told him the story about his breakup with Donnie, Donnie dancing with another guy at a bar,

and that he eventually dropped Donnie off in New Orleans. My conversation with him was, you know, hey, guys are going to do that. How did you view Donnie and Shane's relationship? They were dating, I guess. That was it. They were together as a couple, but they weren't married or anything like they just met each other a month or something before that did you consider it as an in love relationship no okay but when i could see it wasn't serious especially um you know just mad kind of thing and they were just at a club. They were just dating. So then that conversation, I did think that it was a little strange how he acted, crying so much.

Kyle reassured Shane, telling him he'd find another guy and things would be okay, except they weren't. They drove from daylight into darkness as they arrived at the McComb farmhouse. It started getting dark. And we pulled the car up to the house. And then we walked towards the back. So I remember the big window in front of the house. And we were looking there and going, well, it's a big window. And then he started to get a little anxious

or a little bit like, hey, I have something I have to tell you and I don't want you to freak out, but I have to tell you something. And he said that Donnie, that he hadn't dropped Donnie off in New Orleans. And that he had an argument with Donnie here at the house and that he had shot Donnie in the back. At that point I wasn't sure, I was kind of like stunned.

I didn't believe him at first. And then that's when we walked over to the car and he opened up the trunk. And then I saw the body. So, at that point he said, I need your help to get rid of the body. And I wasn't thinking too much as far as the consequences of it or about the seriousness of it. I said, okay, I'll help you. at the time I remember even thinking initially well yeah you're gonna be

caught you you're not gonna get away with this kind of thing no I know I didn't tell him that but I thought that and then you know he did say oh the other person looking for him can be his mother he said that he's a loner doesn't really call anybody doesn't know anybody. Okay, Kyle, we're going to stop. We're going to bag up a little bit because I feel like you're leaving some stuff out. Okay. All right, I do feel like you're leaving some stuff out. Let's go back to when he said, hey, I got something to tell you. I don't want you to freak out. When he opened the trunk, I remember him talking about how he wanted to bury the body in the carport area. Kyle says it was Shane's initial idea to bury Donnie in the dirt crawlspace underneath the guest house with the carport.

But Kyle argued against that, saying the small size of the crawlspace made it too difficult to dig in. And I said, I'm pretty sure I said, I don't think that's a good idea. space made it too difficult to dig in. you did or he did it? I don't know exactly honestly it might have been me I don't know. I'll remind you of what you said in the past. I said it was me? Yeah you did. I did. You remember saying it? I know. Okay when the trunk was open describe to us exactly what you saw every detail that you can remember. Um I saw donnie naked i saw three bullet holes in his back then one two three he was curled up his head was facing towards the right of the trunk like this in the trunk so we talked about the fire piece of it and I said that would be the better way of doing it.

I remember crying. And um, we said, at that point, I asked him how he could do this. And I was like, that is so stupid. Why would you do this? And he just cried and gave me a really hard hug. It was hurt as far as the hug. You know, after that, let's just get this over with, as fast as we could.

And at that point, we didn't talk much more. They didn't talk much more. Then Kyle says he and Shane walk through a jungle-like area, rife with spider webs, and saw the fire pit stacked with wood, six feet by six feet, perhaps wider. They made their plan for the burn, and Shane drove the Miata closer. So after we had fire set up, we opened up the trunk again the Miata closer. big guy, you know, I think about 176 foot tall. So we had to feed out first, I think, and then we had to grab the,

both helped to get the rest of the body out. Now, are you sure he was deceased at this time? Oh yeah, and I don't remember seeing any blood. It was, you know, like, it was every sign that he was dead. There was nothing that he was awake or alive. And so, we, at that point, we started the fire. And it burned for a while. We put some more wood on it, on top of him,

keeping it going. Then he told me that he had shot Donnie in the back, in the 22, and that it took Donnie about 30 minutes to die. Donnie was shot in the back and took 30 minutes to die. That has always been the one thing that bothers me, hearing that from you. When you told me that, I just... I almost didn't want to be helping him. I didn't want to be helping him. I wanted to like...

basically turn him in or call or... I actually wanted to hit him. I was really upset. And I walked away. I walked away after that for a while. I got sick during part of it. I threw up. I started to get nervous about the fire being so big, thinking that someone was going to call the fire department. Kyle says he started to see parts of Donnie through the flames even

though they had deliberately placed brush on top of him to pretend he wasn't there. When he saw what he calls pieces of Donnie it disturbed him. But then I started to see pieces you know so I went away from the fire for, you know, an hour or so. And I went into the forest. While he was doing all this, where was Shane? Shane was there by the fire, still over by his car during that time. Okay, so how long did the fire burn? Did it eventually go out on its own, or did you guys put the fire out? No, it went on for about eight, nine hours.

It was about 8 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the morning when it was out. And there was just ash. I mean, there was a few bones left. Kyle says he saw Donnie's skull and some larger bones. And then he watched as Shane smashed them into ashes with a shovel. I saw the skull. I saw some larger bones, and then that's when Shane had taken a shovel and smashed the bones to where all that was left

that you could see was ash. So there was nothing, no lumps, no bones that you could see. It was all ash. You watched him do that? I saw him, yes, smash. I did not smash anything, but I saw him do it. He asked me if I could see any other bones. I don't know if I could see anything.

Okay, Cal, I'm going to ask you a serious question, and you need to answer my question correctly. You mentioned a.22. Did you ever see the gun? I never saw the correctly. You mentioned a.22. Mm-hmm. Did you ever see the gun? I never saw the gun. I never saw the gun. So how do you know it was a.22?

He told me that he shot him with a.22. I never saw the gun. Never, ever. I don't know. I've never seen the gun. So why would he come out the blue and say, I shot him with a.22? Why did he say, I shot him? When he had told me that it took him 30 minutes to die out, I asked him what kind of gun he shot him with. If he shot him with a larger caliber gun, obviously he would have died earlier. Not necessarily.

I grew up on a farm. I've shot a.22. We used to shoot squirrels or shoot birds, things like that. Shooting somebody shot a.22. You know, it's the way you use to shoot squirrels or shoot birds, you know, things like that. Shooting somebody with a.22 is not a big gun. .22s, in my experience, would be something that you wouldn't shoot a person with. You'd shoot them with, you know, like a larger gun, right? That's my experience. According to documents I found, Shane Gunther had a.38 caliber Smith & Wesson handgun registered to him at a West Hollywood address in 1993. Gunther's occupation is listed New Orleans that a handgun he owned had been either stolen

from him or lost by him there shortly after Donnie disappeared. No original paperwork exists on this alleged police report that Gunther made to my knowledge, with Hurricane Katrina being blamed by police for destroying the records. Glapion turns the conversation with Kyle back to New Orleans and then, you know, he dropped me off at the airport. I want to back up to when y'all left here. This would have been after Shane broke up Bones. Am I right?

Did I hear you right? Yes. And y'all left. Nothing else was done then? Nothing. We got in the car and drove, we didn't stop anywhere. We went straight back to New Orleans. In other words, after breaking up the bones,

are you telling us that everything was left just like that, and y'all left and went to New Orleans. Yeah. And nobody changed clothes. Nobody changed clothes. Because what kind of concerns me is that, you know, Shane is taking a shovel hitting these ashes. Soot should have been piling up on him. I mean, no, I mean, this is the part where I don't remember changing clothes at all. Like, I mean, I don't remember changing clothes. I know I didn't take a shower because we never went inside the house. So I don't even know if I brought clothes with me.

I don't know what luggage I had. I don't know if I had a backpack. Glapion starts to dig in a bit more on Kyle. You know, some of the things that's confusing me, Kyle, is that you remember some things, dates, times, and everything's in detail. But other things you don't have memory of I mean that's just confusing to me. Either you do or you don't. This is the part where I literally I suppressed so much of it like for the longest time I thought it was a nightmare so I this whole trip the whole

thing happening I when I went back to LA, I kind of thought it was a nightmare and I put it behind me. Like if it was like something that happened, for the longest time, I didn't think about it. It was to me, it was not real. And I kind of suppressed it and put it down. I, I don't know.

Did you kill Donald Izzet Jr.? No, I did not. I swear I did not. I never, first of all, I was not here when he was shot, so that makes it impossible to kill him. You answered my second question. Were you present? Did you see Donald Izzet Jr. being killed? No, I did not. Did you see Donald Izzet Jr. after he was dead? Yes, I did.

Who killed Donald Izzet Jr.? Shane told me that he shot me. Shane told you that he shot you? He shot me. I'm going to stop writing a account. They told me not to do this, but I'm going to say this, Cal. I believe he was there when this happened. Shane had killed somebody and you was there I tell you right now I was not there on my mother's life

I tell you I was not there We Built This City is a collection of stories from Mississauga capturing the rich history culture sports music and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga, capturing the rich history, culture, sports, music, and incredible individuals who have shaped Mississauga into the vibrant city it is today. This brand new series created by Visit Mississauga celebrates a city 50 years in the making, paying homage to Ontario's vibrant, diverse, and dynamic third largest city. Tune in to Visit Mississauga's brand new podcast, We Built This City, to learn more. Available now on CBZ Listen.

Oh, that coffee smells good. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? Whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee. Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Many Canadians are finding it hard to focus

with mortgage payments on their minds. If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank. The earlier they understand your situation, the more options and relief measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash it pays to know. A message from the Government of Canada. So just tell me, Kay, what exactly Kyle told you about his own involvement in this case. I'm in the living room of the home that Kyle Barnes grew up in, part of a low-slung ranch house in what has become the suburbs of greater Sacramento, California. On a table, a plaque that says,

there's these boys that stole my heart, they call me mom. Kay Barnes, Kyle's mom, and his brother Kevin are sitting next to me on a couch in front of a picture window that looks out onto a large circular driveway. I'm interested in what Kyle may have told the people closest to him. As far as I remember, he was more like Shane had killed this kid and that his mother was attempting to locate the body or pieces of the ash from the property. I mean, it was a very short conversation. Did you ever meet Donnie? Is it either?

No. Okay. Never. Kay looks in her 70s and is wearing a fuchsia blouse and capri pants, and Kevin balding in his 40s with a dark golf shirt and jeans. Neither of them have ever been interviewed about Kyle or Donnie's case before, or looked into it, they say. So what they tell me is as unfiltered a version as it can be of what Kyle told them.

As far as Kyle, I mean, growing up he was the person you would think would actually be running for a political office or leading some corporation. But then kind of shifted from being here in Northern California to going to school at Santa Barbara, getting into the LA area. And in doing so, kind of decided like, you know, I'm going to chase after that quick buck kind of thing. Left that stable job at Bank of America, started trying to do the whole dot com. And I think at that point point that's kind of like where you know he just kind of shifted and became a completely different person but he works hard i

mean we you know growing up like you know being here on the farm doing like everything that we did like he was very articulate very well spoken he was the president of the local 4-H club, so he was like talking to the whole audience. And he was active in the student body through high school, became the president, student body president. When he was a senior, he was rallying. Kyle's fast-talking, nebulous style of speaking apparently didn't come until later,

possibly, as Kevin suggests, because of increased drug use after moving to Los Angeles. You know, I mean, that's what I've always been afraid of as far as with Kyle down in L.A., where they were living. I've got to think that that's part of where the changes are that I've seen in him, is that there's things that he's used or done or whatever,

and that's, I don't know. The changes are his his excitability you know I mean he just he goes from so calm to just kind of so loud in your face not because he's angry but he just wants to get his point across you know and growing up he would escalated things in a very structured manner and not raised his voice to be the loudest, but gotten his point through by strategically hitting points. So you don't think that the changes extend to believability, though?

You don't think his honesty was affected? No. No. Okay. This is... That's when they were little. That's when they were really little. This is like him growing up. Actually, this would have been probably almost, what, 15 years ago?

Would be a photo. Kevin points to a photo showing him and his mother standing with Kyle and laughing for the camera. In fact, the hallway I'm in is covered in photos of Kyle from baby days through high school and beyond. Kyle goes from clean cut and collegial looking to more wizened and balding by the end. There's a lot of other pictures. I've got that whole thing in my bedroom. Oh, yeah. All of them. So tell me, if you can remember, Kevin, the timing of what Kyle

said and what did he tell you about this case? Yeah, it had to have been probably maybe a couple years ago, maybe a little bit longer because he reached out to me for money because over the last few years, he would usually like call me, text me, you know, something. Hey, I need money for gas, right? You know, something. And I think he was in New Orleans. He was in New Orleans. Louisiana, somewhere along like the Gulf, like down there.

And he was meeting with, I want to say it was like the local police or the FBI or like one of the agencies. The story was that he was down there to help them out. They were supposed to have like paid for him to be able to travel there and back or something. But then he was down there and it was like taking longer or something. And so he needed money for food or some other expenses i'm like well what are you doing there and like what's happening then that's like when he shared the story and so he admitted that he was down there because shane had done something to donnie i don't know if he shot him or whatever but but what Kyle explained to me was that Kyle helped Shane take the body to some forests,

like some grass area, swamp area, marsh area, something along those lines. And that's like what he was helping the police was that he was trying to basically give them like what the location was and that they were trying to go out and do forensic something to to uncover like whatever so kyle has revealed to you that he helped dispose of donnie just something about being burned yeah that's what he was telling me and whoever he was sharing that with they were trying to go out to some site or something to identify it. But I don't know if it was the body itself or the area that it was like in, or, you know,

if anything was used, like I have no idea. Okay. Is that the first time you've heard that part of the story? Yes. Okay. Yeah. Did you guys not talk about this before?

No, we haven't talked about it at all. And did your brother ever say to you or to uk that he that kyle had been the person that killed donnie did he ever say that to you no never i mean i can tell you i'm not happy with what happened because if the roles were reversed and you know and i was the one there the first thing would have been calling the police i'm not helping anyone out to do anything. I'm basically calling the police. So I can't answer for what Kyle did.

Because I don't know what their relationship was. Do you believe Kyle? Would you believe that he's telling the truth here in this situation? Yes. There would be no reason for me to disbelieve it because he's really been fairly honest. I mean, he's always pretty honest with me if I ask him a direct question. So there's no reason to believe that he wouldn't be honest.

How about you, Kevin? 100%. Whether Kay and Kevin believe Kyle or not is, of course, not really evidence of anything. Growing up with him, talking to him now, there's like never been a time like where you know I think that he's not telling us what's what and he doesn't have a history of lying, he doesn't have a history of holding things back or being secretive or any of that kind of stuff. When Kyle was in his early teens he lost his father and without him here to talk to I've asked Kyle who else he might have told about what he says he did with Shane down in Mississippi. Partially to find corroboration, particularly if he told someone close to 1995, but also to see if the story changed across

tellings. Kyle tells me that he told his partner Melton a version of the story. Kyle has been living with Mel in Los Angeles for about 15 years. Yeah, yeah, Kyle told me about it. What has Kyle told you about the case? I didn't know about all of this, you know. And, hey, he said to me, like, I have to tell you something about a missing person. And that's Donnie and he told me about that

Shane used to be a roommate I believe with Kyle in West Hollywood and then Shane invited Kyle to go to uh Mississippi New Orleans so Kyle went there and now Donnie is dead and now Shane, like he asked Kyle to help him how to dispose the body and all this. Mel's wearing a black tank top with the words defend and coexist across the front. He came to the U.S. from the Philippines less than 20 years ago as a bank manager. He was also a member of an organization known as Singles for Christ, where he says he gave talks to troubled youth. He's soft-spoken and soft-edged. So when did Kyle tell you about this first? When was the first time you heard? The first time about, like, I think, I don't remember exactly, but I know that during the time he said to me about Debra, the mother of Donnie, you know, because Debra's been looking for an answer of the missing of his missing of course understandable so he told me

about that and that's like who are you like like I don't know you then like you know I'm saying it's a surprise like all of a sudden like hey what else are you hiding you know it's like were you angry then were you mad or I'm not no I'm not really that mad or angry with him it's's kind of like, you know, I don't know even the answers. Like, is it true or no? You know what I'm saying? Like, what are you talking about? Because to be honest, they said, like, you're a part of this.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it's kind of like you obstruct justice first of all. Like, you know, you didn't say anything from the very beginning. Like, I don't know why in this, you know. And you didn't even tell me. After so many years, who are you? And I cannot speak on his behalf as far as why did he do this? Why did he participate?

Why did he not say anything? Kyle, why did you not say that a long time ago? Why did you not open up? Why did you have to wait for Debra to come? It's so many things. These are the questions anybody would ask. It's kind of like, why? And because I said, Kyle, no matter what, I don't hate you.

You're still a human being and made mistakes, but please, sometimes we're making wrong decisions in life. But those decisions we have to consider always, what's the impact on ourselves? Truth will come out no matter what. It's just a matter of time. I said, you know, I forgive you. Whatever the things I did, I still forgive you. Because you're still a human just a matter of time I said you know I forgive you whatever the things I still forgive you because you're still a human being we all make mistakes you know but I said like Kyle that is very wrong though do you think that Kyle has told you all

the details the details of what happened to what he what he remembers of what well he told me what he told me was that Shane shot Donnie, I think three times he said, I think. And then he helped Shane burn the body and then put in a thing in Mississippi. Mel meaning here, Kyle told him that Shane put Donnie's ashes into the coffee can. I don't remember exactly, but that's all he said to me. So I didn't even ask for details on everything

because I don't even know Shane. I said, who is Shane? You had never met Shane or Donnie? No, never. And tell me about Kyle. You've known him for 15 years. Do you believe him? Yeah, of course.

I believe him. Yeah, I believe him. You know, he's always been very honest to me. Like, I know what kind of person he is, you know. I feel it. So I went to the point where I believe him. You know, he's always been very honest to me. Like I know what kind of person he is, you know I feel it. So I went to the point where I told him, hey, did you get a lawyer for that? Because this is not a joke You know, I said first of all Kyle, you should not say anything Because you have to protect yourself as well, defend yourself. The law is the law, you know, like Nobody excuses if a crime was committed that's why i've been asking hey

convince me that did you what did you do what is your participation has he ever changed any aspect of his story when you know he's always kept the story this yeah it's pretty much the same yes pretty much the same like you know and uh because i always keep asking him questions what else cal do you want to tell me you know it's like they have to prepare yourself when the time comes you will be cold and it's just a matter of like how credible are you when you're there. Are you speaking the truth or not? You can tell only the sincerity and the truth from a person if they are consistent in what

they're doing and what they're saying. And other people believe I was there. I was not. I flew in after he was dead. I wish I was there because this wouldn't have happened. The reason I believe you was there when this happened, because you're saying it was a crime of passion. You're saying that because he wanted to leave. You're saying he was shot over by the tennis courts, that he took 30 minutes for him to die.

Those are all the things that Shane had told me. Okay, well, I mean, the way you tell me this, like if he was there. At this point, Glapion leaves, and Detective Chris Bell squeezes into the small room. Bell is the lead detective on this investigation from Pike County, and he is interested in a looser, more fast-paced bad cop strategy with Kyle. one time I think we kissed or something like that at night. And that was actually after this whole thing happened in West Hollywood when that happened. You know, it was like, I don't think it even happened before this event.

And, you know, yeah, obviously I made the bad decision back then, I was 21. I was, you know, my best friend. I wasn't thinking and I didn't think at all. No, if what you're saying is accurate, you weren't thinking at all. I wasn't thinking at all. Because I can remember when I was 21 years old, yeah, we'd done some crazy things, but I don't think nobody would have done nothing this crazy

but to go cover up a murder. There's got to be some kind of benefit or motive behind it for you for you not to tell anybody. No, well, obviously my benefit is that he was my best friend and I didn't want him, you know, something to happen to him. That's not a benefit. Did you know that Shane was wealthy back then? Um, I didn't know he was that wealthy. I mean, he didn't have to worry about money.

Was money the motivation behind this? No. Were you not telling anybody? I didn't get any money for him. That wasn't the reason for it. Later on he gave you $50,000 to help you start the business. Well, no, but that wasn't the reason why he was giving it to me. Kyle had asked for investment from Shane and others for a company he started in the late 1990s, and Kyle says Shane gave him at least $50,000.

The company was to produce a new computer keyboard that Kyle says he invented. But the company wasn't successful. Did it give you any money for coming down to the plane and helping him out? No. Did it feel like it owed you something for coming there for a month? No, I don't think so. I think he was thinking that it was going to be a good investment. That's what you're saying, but I don't know. No, I know, I know.

I'm trying to figure it out. I know you don't know that. I'm trying to figure it out. I know you don't know that. It's impossible to know Shane's motivation beyond that an investment was made. Kyle seems to be struggling. I was not here when he was shot. The whole thing is what I'm trying to figure out. I was not here when he was shot. I was not here. How do I know you wasn't here? Because you say so? Well, obviously because I say, because the body was already in the trunk. The body was in the trunk before I got here. He was dead. I never saw him alive.

I flew in here, she picked me up, and he was already dead. I helped dispose of the body. I was here after the fact. I've never changed anything. I've always told the truth. And I've been as honest as I could. No one people don't come down here and have their friend dispose of a body. Who does that?

I don't have a best friend that I'm going to fucking go dispose of a body with. I just helped him burn the body. I'm not part of it. But you can minimize that involvement if you let somebody know what's going on. You and Shane are best friends, right? You don't keep in contact with the same friend? You don't know what's going on with him afterwards? After y'all get back to California?

I didn't really keep in contact with him. We drifted apart, but not like, oh, I'm never going to talk to you again. We just drifted apart. I went on my life. He went on with his life. In I want to say 98, at that point he mentioned to me that the police had talked to him. They interviewed him and his mother. Shane told Kyle he gave police the same alibi they agreed on, that they went looking for Donnie in New Orleans. What they really did is go to a casino and drank a New Orleans specialty hurricane cocktail as they walked around.

Good morning. Drive back to New Orleans. Again, I don't remember much. I remember going to a casino. This was after. Went to Club Goddard. Got a hurricane thing on the road So you started drinking having a good time after you dispose of the body you were drinking then you went to the casino

I tried to give you guys everything possible little tiny details of everything that I could possibly think of or that I can remember Because I do want Shane to go to jail because he put me in this position He fucking put me where I'm now having to fucking maybe go to jail. I'm having to fucking go and pick him up. You put yourself in that situation. Well, no, but he did because he called me and he fucking put me in. He's the one that shot the person. He should never have shot Donnie.

You have to cover it up. I might have to, but he shouldn't have ever fucking shot him. You put yourself there. Shane didn't put you there. You didn't have to help him. But you put yourself in a situation where you went out there to help the cover fucking body up. Well, I understand that. But if he had shot him, then we wouldn't be here today.

Period. Who done that? Nobody but you. Well, I know, but that was where I made my wrong decision. Okay, so don't blame Shane for your mistakes. See, you're minimizing yourself. I made a bad decision. Everything you do is minimized.

I should not have been put in that situation. No, you should have put yourself in that situation. You don't do it. The average human's not going to do shit like that, unless there's something else you're not telling me. The interrogation continues. Kyle sticks to his story with little deviation. It could be what you're not telling me.

There's nothing I'm not telling you. At the end of it, Deborah walks out of the office in a daze, her eyes red and moist. It's clear she's taken on the relative lack of new information from Kyle as yet another variation on her theme of personal failure. She approaches Truett, who she spies coming down the hall. Deborah always has another plan, another chess piece to put into play, anything to keep her self-imposed guilt at bay and the feeling of momentum going.

She wants Truett to consider another police-sponsored dig at the Nobles' farm, this time a more thorough one. Can I have a copy of the aerial picture and take Kyle out to Dr. Nobles before I head to the airport? May I ask why? I just want to try one more time. Deborah, I'm not trying to... I don't... I know where you're coming from, okay? It's no good gonna come of it, dear.

I firmly believe that. I asked Dr. Nablus if it was okay, and he said that it was. I mean, I won't stay long or anything. Where we've been and where we're going, I don't have a problem with it, except I'm more concerned about you than the benefit that's gonna come. This is killing you. But maybe it's not for me to...

I feel done here again. I just have to at least go back out and say goodbye or something. We've come this far. I just want to say goodbye again. Okay. It's so hard to leave every time I'm here. I know.

With Kyle having given his statements, Detective John Glapion lays out his current thoughts on the case. Well, my only concern about this one is that it's been going on, it's been so long, that if we do find some evidence, I mean, that's the only way we're going to be able to convict somebody in this particular case. We're going to have to find some kind of physical evidence, such as bone fragments, DNA evidence, shell casings, even bullet fragments, and the gun. Glapion says Mississippi police and the FBI have also tried to talk to Shane. We have talked to a person of interest. He's denying everything.

We've been trying to get him on multiple occasions to come down and do a formal interview. He refuses. He's always referring to his lawyer. We even called in the FBI to try to get their assistance to come. I guess he refused the FBI as well. Once we get evidence, I think we can get a conviction. I mean, Cal can actually be charged with accessory after the fact. It depends on the DA and since he's been so helpful, I mean, they'll probably be lenient on him, but he could face charges as well, you know? But I'm not the DA.

The only thing we do is collect the evidence, present the case, and then it's in the lawyer's hands from there. DAs, or district attorneys in the USA, are elected officials who have a fair bit of latitude in determining if they want to press forward prosecuting a case. The current DA in Pike County is named D. Bates. So, Mr. District Attorney, just tell me what you can about Donnie's case. I can't speak specifically about any evidence one way or another.

Obviously, it's a case that's under investigation or will continue to be under investigation until some type of conclusion. The main thing the state of Mississippi, my office, and everyone involved want a conclusion to find Donnie. I mean obviously you want to find answers for his mother and obviously from there we would like to hold whoever, if there was anything done, that individual or individuals be held accountable. I'm getting the sense that D. Bates falls on the cautious side of things. It's the end of another grueling day, and Kyle's heading back to New Orleans.

I catch him by phone. So how'd it go? It was okay. I catch him by phone. changing my story, I don't know. Sometimes I remember things a little bit differently than the way that, you know, I do some other times, so I guess it's hard to, especially when you've been asked about the same things, like, so many times. So do you believe that everything you're saying is true? Oh yeah, of course. I, everything I've said is true. I mean, I might be off on, obviously, where locations are, I might be off on timing, days, but as far as the event that happened and me coming here for my game here,

everything, that's all true. Shane did shoot Donnie and all that stuff was all true. It's just a matter of details of things might be a little different sometimes. It's possible Kyle is lying, but my feeling is that his story has stayed relatively the same

across many tellings, with any changes or revisions apparently due to mis-memory or passage of time. And without Shane's input on any of it, we may never have any other perspective on the eyewitness story. Shane could be completely innocent of any wrongdoing, and he may have done nothing, Kyle's suggesting. The FBI did try to talk to Shane with Kyle's involvement. They set Kyle up to make the call

and try to casually bring up the various plot points of the Mississippi story. Well, I tried to talk to him with the FBI on the phone back in October, and he thought I was crazy or didn't want to talk to him with the FBI on the phone back in October, and he thought I was crazy or didn't want to talk about anything that had to do with anything. So I don't think he'd want to see me now, because I think he'd think I would be wired. But Shane apparently said nothing of value in the conversation. If a grand jury is called, you'll be giving your evidence.

And as an accomplice, do you have any concept of what might happen to you? Or have you made any kind of arrangements? Or what's going on with that? I haven't yet. I obviously haven't got an attorney yet. People tell me I should get an attorney here that I need to be careful about what I say. I kind of hope and trust him that the fact that I'm helping out with everything

is help alleviate a lot of what I might, you know. Attorney would definitely tell me not to come here, which is not really what I want to have right now. I think the most important thing is to try to get Shane and see if we can get the evidence out. So that way we can try to get Shane and Joe. That's my priority, basically. Can you at least just take that?

What is it? Deborah's thrown a small silver medallion for a necklace onto the hood of her car. Kyle's flown back to California, and Deborah and I are regrouping on next steps before we separate for a necklace onto the hood of her car. Kyle's flown back to California and Deborah and I are regrouping on next steps before we separate for a while. It's because you travel so much and it's a coin to protect you while you're driving. And I wanted you and people that's involved in the case helping me to have it. The St. Christopher Medallion. Protect us wherever we may roam and guide us always safely home. Patron Saint of Travelers.

Thank you. So it's a little medallion with St. Christopher on the front. And then is that the baby Jesus on his shoulders or something? Yes. They both have halos. That's great. I need as many halos as I can get. I don't believe in halos or saints, but Deborah does, so I take the medal and put it in my jacket pocket.

What's your next step? Start working on planning the excavation. People still say that no matter how long it's been and how many fires took place over top of that same fire pit, that there still has to be something. Deborah sets some wheels in motion to find an experienced forensic team to dig up Dr. Noble's yard around the area where Kyle has indicated and where police made their shallow test trench.

It's just a matter of funding, but it's going to happen, and I'll be helping with some things, but I'm planning it for the spring. I don't want to get involved with cold weather, but it's going to be a large one. It's not going to be a probe. Deborah's gritty determination is hard not to be inspired by, but there's a guilt there that helps to drive it, and I hope that that part of seeking the answer she needs can soon come to an end.

Kyle's position stays relatively the same, and police seem to be inching toward believing him. The new dig Deborah is proposing for Dr. Noble's property will be based in part on Kyle's statements and will be far more expansive than the straight police trench with the plastic flags. If it's there, finding the fire pit will have a better chance among slim chances. And there's still people to talk to. People close to Shane.

Very close. You've been listening to Episode 3, Frenemy. Visit cbc.ca slash sks to learn more about the Donnie Izzett case. You can also join our Facebook group and follow us on Twitter at SKSCBC to discuss episodes with others and discover exclusive content. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by me, David Ridgen.

The series is produced by Eunice Kim, Chris Oak, and Cecil Fernandez with help from Makala Rana and Emily Cannell. Tanya Springer is our senior producer, and the executive producer of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani. Our theme song is I Once Was a Bird by Justin Bird. Down the dirt road

Into the cornfield I sat alone The sky was not blue and the earth did not bloom I could not fly anymore I once was a bird The mountains I climbed Were built up with love We've been in love, we've been in love