Someone Knows Something - S6 Episode 5: The Test

Episode Date: June 8, 2020

David looks deeper into Donnie’s case file to try piecing together his final days and hours, while Debra takes a new approach to try shaking something loose. New revelations ensue. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/sks/someone-knows-something-season-6-donald-izzett-jr-transcripts-listen-1.5558068

Turn off hesitation. Turn off doubt. Turn off fears. The YMCA helps you turn off whatever's holding you back, so you can let your potential shine. Through our wide range of programs and services, you can turn on confidence. Turn on connections.

Turn on possibilities. Visit our website to see what you can achieve at the YMCA. This will be the day. Visit our website to see what you can achieve at the YMCA. This will be the day. This is a CBC Podcast. Hey David, this is Steve Sims at the medical examiner's office in Pearl, Mississippi. We have looked at some samples that have been brought in on that case, and so far I've found nothing human.

I am a bone person, a bone specialist, and I've seen nothing yet that looks like bone. I'm back in Canada and get a message from Dr. Stephen Sims, a forensic anthropologist in Mississippi's Office of the State Medical Examiner. So far in Sims' analysis, the samples he has seen from the fire pits on Dr. Noble's Mississippi property are not consistent with known bone samples on the basis of elemental composition, meaning on the basis of what the sample was

chemically made of. Thank you. End of message. But others disagree. Dr. Cassandra Hill, another forensic anthropologist and bone expert, told Lynn Funkhauser that the samples she saw contained what is definitely burnt bone that is consistent with the appearance of human bone. Different experts have come to different conclusions because the forensics on burnt remains are difficult.

Pruitt's message was they want to get them to another expert. The reports from these experts make it difficult to understand what samples they actually examined. It's all very frustrating for Debra, who has seen the findings as a major breakthrough ever since they were pulled from the ground. You know, and I guess where I'm aggravated, they're not going to get anybody to say 1,000% it's human bone. I was researching the types of tests that can be done, and I don't care what test they want to pull out of their ass, it's not going to give them 100% accuracy.

It's not going to happen, and they're not going to get DNA. Not if the bones were burnt at a higher temperature and for as long as they were. Exactly. They know that that's what the defense is going to pick on. But you have an eyewitness. There's an element of risk that the prosecution needs to take in this case. Like, they've got a witness.

Yes. But do you want it to get into the courtroom and fail? Or do you want it to have the best chance of success? But you know what? Even if it's all the above, I don't see Dee winning at it. I don't. I don't have zero confidence in him. Dee Bates, who Deborah is referring to here, is the district attorney.

It's just another hurry up and wait. There's nothing, never enough. And I'm telling you, they could send it to whomever and it's still not going to be enough. And they can do all the research they want. So anyway, back to the excavation. This is exactly why I had that argument or whatever, because Dee has told me at least 10 times that all we need is to find one piece of bone and there is no money, no whatever, we'll dig up the whole hillside. Now they're not going to, they have to excavate. How can you stop? I mean, I don't get it. I'm just like beyond myself.

Deborah's edging back into the well-worn ditch of desperation she's accustomed to traveling. She spent a considerable amount of her savings on the dig. Well, I'll keep fighting this way. I have no choice. You will do the exact same thing Something from CBC Podcasts. This is Season 6, Episode 5, The Test. This is the last regular episode in the season. When you go to see an attorney. I hired this gentleman to start a civil case against Shane for wrongful death. Basically more to hold up his assets and let him know that we know what he did and stir

things up. Deborah's decided to go after Shane with a civil suit for the wrongful death of Donnie. I travel down to Mississippi one more time to meet with her in Macomb, and we're driving together to her civil lawyer's office. I guess the aim is to get Shane into a courtroom of any sort. Yes. Hit him where it hurts, ball it.

And you would bring Kyle in as the prime witness? Yeah. Normally, civil suits come after criminal proceedings. But in this case, some feel it could be a good idea. True at Simmons. Generally speaking, we always take the position we'd rather not see a civil trial until the criminal part has been completed.

And in fact, the civil trial can make use of some of the criminal trial's information, right? That's right. We can't make use of the civil trial information. But what happens is the civil trial gets the case out in public ahead of the criminal. I just want to tie up his money so we can't hire big lawyers. Well, I mean, when it came up and Deborah said she was going to do that, you know, ordinarily we don't like to see that happen, but this is different. I talked to Dee and you know we weren't gonna discourage it.

We weren't gonna encourage it but we weren't gonna discourage it or say no you shouldn't do it. Frankly I was hoping it may help shake something out of the trees so to speak and out of the bushes and it's many might we don't know see this big house here in a corner that's there it is on the way to meet the civil lawyer Deborah takes me past a semi-derelict mansion on a Macomb Main Street this is where Freddie Gunther lives Freddie is Shane's older brother, and I want to speak to him about aspects of Shane's story to police.

That is a massive, that's a mansion. It's in need of repair, but it's a massive mansion. It's got like a cupola on the top or like a tower. Apparently Shane owns the house and Freddie is helping to restore it. I'll come back here for a closer look later. This is probably the biggest, one of the biggest buildings I've ever seen a law firm in. It's like an old barn storage mall sort of thing. I meet with Deborah and one of her lawyers, Ronnie Whittington, an older Southern man with white hair and glasses,

in his very spacious Macomb office building. Hi, how are you? How are you doing? Nice to meet you. Ronnie Whittington. I'm David Ridgen. Nice to meet you. David? David, yeah. I'm from Canada. I work for CBC Canadian Broadcasting. So Debra has asked me to come and work with her

and see what we can do with this case. I hope you don't mind me being here. Now, are you recording us? I am, yeah. I don't want to do that. That would waive the attorney-client privilege. Can I ask for some kind of a statement after? Sure.

Whittington won't allow me to stay despite Deborah's permission and my assurance that I only really want to record the beginning of their meeting. I'm not doing it. It's not in your best interest. He's correct in that once I attend and record any conversation they might have, it no longer becomes privileged and is subject to disclosure to a defense lawyer. I respect his wishes and leave the office to await Deborah in her car. Whittington retained a New Orleans-based lawyer named Bill Goodwin

to help him with the civil suit. I spoke to Goodwin at Noble's farm as he was catching up on the case history with Debra. You know, you never know what a juror will latch onto. You just never know. There's a lot of circumstantial stuff that when you fuse it with facts, I mean that's your task, right? Yeah, but one thing, this is not a circumstantial case. There's direct evidence. You've got Kyle, who, you know, it's direct evidence. I basically told Deborah, I'm glad she was here, but whether they found Bone or didn't find Bone, in my mind, wouldn't have affected my prosecutorial decision.

You know? Now, let me ask you this then, since I have you. If the bone or if the object or the item found in that area turns out to be human bone, what if you were approached by the DA who says, I wanted to go criminal first? Oh, I think we would honor that. But that would be, truthfully, Mr. Whittington's call. But my suspicion is that we would honor that. In reference to this case, the fact that with the political environment here in Mississippi right now, the fact that this case involves homosexuality.

You know, I'm being very adamant with the district attorney that does not need to be playing into his decision about prosecution or not. You know, I just want to make sure that that's not an issue. And I don't believe that it is but you never know you know I mean we've got an eyewitness who truth and veracity has been confirmed and let me say this it was confirmed before the specimens were found I mean he said there was a burn pile on top of this hill, and he could not have possibly have known that if he hadn't been here.

And he has said that he participated in the crime of disposing of the body. No rational person says that unless it's true. So I'm going to be looking for any motive, improper motive, about why this case isn't being pursued. And if it turns out that that's one of them, I'll be screaming it from the housetop. We'll come back to the civil suit as it progresses. This is the case file. Looks a little bit out of order. Big time. Why is it out of order?

Well, I left the lawyer's office one day and dropped it, and everything went everywhere on the street. And, uh... All right, we'll have to reorganize that and so I haven't put it put everything back yet because I pretty much have everything on my phone as well in the meantime awaiting finality in the sample analysis the civil case more plans for more digs by Deborah, and dogs sniffing soil, I want to explore more of the information available about the final days of Donnie's spring 1995 trip.

The investigative file Deborah obtained from Maryland police provides a few possibilities, names of people that come up around the period of Donnie's trip with Shane. So we've got a lot to do here in coming up with some hard evidence that supports Kyle's story. Now, there were witnesses, quite a number of people, let's say, who were interviewed back in the day, way back, by either Maryland police and or FBI. Some of these people need to be talked to again. People that are hard to reach, and even Truett can't find them. I've been looking for a few of these names that I need to come forward. Jamie Lynn Reichert and Paul Andrew Lapp were two roommates of Donnie's who lived with him around the time he disappeared. They weren't extensively interviewed by police at the time and may have information. And even others who were interviewed

need more attention. Three in particular, named Brady Swindell, Jason Hogan, and a Canadian named Barry Gere, are obvious choices according to the file. One of the people that I think you should talk to is a person that Donald met in Florida, Key West, I believe it was, back in 95. And his name is Brady Swindell. Swindell, I believe it's pronounced. Okay, and he met him down in Key West? That's correct.

Okay, and that, yeah, that's right. Brady Swindell in the file is the guy who said that Donnie called him from Mississippi, right? Yes. Okay. Brady Swindell might be a good possible source of information. Donnie knew Brady, apparently, from another trip he had taken with Shane, this time to Key West, Florida, sometime earlier in the spring of 1995. According to the police file, Donnie apparently called Brady when he was in Mississippi in May.

Brady could help to place Donnie in Mississippi and he may remember some other useful details. I routed a production trip past his home in St. Louis only to discover that Swindell had just died. What are you looking for there? Conversation with Brady. Deborah had Facebook messaged with Brady quite a bit before he passed away. A look through his conversation with Deborah shows that Brady did know Donnie at least, but when Deborah asks Brady if he remembered the conversation he had with police back in 1995 and sent him clippings of the file to jog his memory, Brady responds,

that is not the conversation I had with police, and seems they made up a few things. The police file says that Donnie lived with Brady while he was visiting Key West, but Brady says Donnie never lived with him. The file also says that Brady received a call from Donnie while he was in Mississippi, but Brady says he never received any communications from Donnie after he left Key West. Brady says he never hung out with Shane, but does tell police and then Debra many years later that Donnie told him that Shane beat him and was verbally abusive. But I can't verify any of it it and Maryland police are proving difficult to get a statement out of too. I don't see a police office, a media communication. Oh, hi Ron, it's David Ridgen calling from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation in Toronto

and Maryland police have an extensive file on the case of Donald Izzet, which actually I have in my hands. Ron Snyder at Maryland Police Media Relations later tells me flatly that they cannot help us. Brady's messages with Deborah throw aspects of the police file into a different light and make me wonder how accurate it is. Another name that comes up in the file is a man named Jason Hogan. Jason Hogan, he's in the file as someone that talked to the police and had talked to Shane. I told the police that Shane said that he left Donnie in New Orleans and there was a fight and something just didn't seem right to me.

Police talk to Hogan and it's right here. Yep. Jason Hogan, according to the file, knew Donnie and Shane and had been told by Shane that he had a fight with Donnie in Mississippi and left him in New Orleans without any money. Hogan would then be a good person to talk to since he apparently heard directly from Shane what happened and also could place Donnie in Mississippi. I called Hogan and set up a meeting at his home in Maryland.

Hello Jason. Nice to see you. Thanks for seeing me. My son Owens is in the car so... So I don't help him out for a bunch of recording or anything. Right away the meeting with Hogan seems off to me. And he doesn't want to be recorded for a statement. So I smooth into a proposal to try to at least verify that he is the right Jason Hogan. I decide to show him the name and address police had for Jason Hogan in the 1995 police file. I've blacked out all the other information. Okay, I mean, I can show you right here if you want. I mean, I'm not, it's not that I'm withholding anything. I just don't all the other information. Okay, I mean, I can show you right here if you want.

I mean, I'm not, it's not that I'm withholding anything. I just don't have the missing link. So I've redacted exactly what you said, but you can see that your name's in it. You can see that it's your address. And this is page one. My redactions are the black. And this is Maryland Department of State Police.

And this is the file number for Donnie Izzett, and you are here. That's your date of birth, right? Yep. And that's your full name, Jason Eric Hogan, right? And then this is where you lived, right? I did live there. Then there's other pages that say your name again,

we got this from him, we got this from him. Same date of birth, same former address and phone number. I won't provide him with much more than this because I don't want to seed a witness with case information, even if it is what they might have said before. I'm hoping Hogan can remember on his own. So where was this taken, this police report? I suspect that they've met you and it was August and it would have been out in San Diego, I think. August of 95, I think. See, but the issue with this whole thing is I've never known a person by the name of Izzet. After you sent me the text, I read back through and his name was Donald. Donald, yeah. And then it says at the bottom, this is the thing I did not redact, it should be noted that Swindell and Hogan are going to attempt to retrieve phone numbers from previous phone bills.

Do you remember anything about that? Saying that you would go through phone records. I've had enough and Hogan's had enough. So Jason, what's your comment about Donnie Izzett? We've got Jason Eric Hogan, date of birth 07-21-76, the same address you lived at. I have absolutely no recollection of speaking with a police officer in San Diego and do not know anybody by this name. Donnie Izzet. I've never met a Donnie Izzet if he said his name was Donnie and have researched online and there is no name

that is in common with you that you know of. Okay, so that's all I really want to say on a microphone about this. And off mic, he doesn't add anything. Police say they interviewed this particular Jason about Donnie Izzet, but this Jason Hogan has no recollection of it. I have no explanation, and I don't detect deliberate deception on Hogan's part. Could police have accidentally inserted the wrong Jason Hogan's address? How long did it take you to drive from home to here? Uh, I don't know, seven hours.

Wow. Not bad. I don't know, it's a heck of a lot closer than Mississippi. I'm going to continue down. I'm going to go to Florida and go talk to Barry, Barry Gere down there. I don't think anyone's spoken to Barry Gere since back then. The Florida connection with Donnie continues with a fellow named Barry Gere, since back then. The Florida connection with Donnie continues with a fellow named Barry Gere, someone Donnie allegedly took another trip with,

this time to Toronto, also in the spring of 1995. Back in 1995, Debra found out about Gere from police after Donnie disappeared and reached out to him. They briefly stayed in touch, and Gere provided some some information but Debra has always thought he might know more and he supposedly knew Shane. I had so many conversations with him and would send him information back in the day and I have notes where I showed Shane that I've called and his numbers was changed and he just never stayed in contact with me.

After finding out where he is in Florida, I go there and leave several ever more detailed messages at a number associated with Barry Gere. Hi, this message is for Barry. Barry, it's David Ridgen calling again. Hello? Yeah, hi. Somebody keeps on calling on a number and saying they're looking for somebody. Oh, hi. I'm looking for Barry, hi. Someone keeps on calling on my number and saying they're looking for somebody.

Oh, hi. I'm looking for Barry. Yes. Are you Barry? No. There's no Barry at this number. Okay. So no one named Barry Gere?

No. Okay. And how long have you had this number, if you don't mind me asking? Probably a couple of years. A couple of years? Okay. Do you know anyone named Barry Gere?

No. Okay. Thanks very much. A couple of years? Okay. Do you know anyone named Barry Gere? No. Okay, thanks very much. Thank you. Bye-bye. So, losing hope on Barry, the third person from the police file. But then, a short time later, while I'm driving through a terrible Florida storm on U.S. Highway 1, I get a call. Hello? Hi, is David there please? This is David. David, what do you do if I may ask?

What do I do? Who is this speaking? I pull as far over to the side of the road as I can and fumble to take the call. I just got a message that you were looking for somebody? Yes, I'm looking for a person named Barry, Barry Gere. Do you know Barry? It's regarding an investigation I'm working on about Donnie Izzett, who disappeared in 1995. I'm working with CBC and Deborah Izzett, Donnie's mother.

And I have the police file about the case and Barry Gere is mentioned in it as having known Donnie. Yeah, this is Barry Gere. It was Barry's contact number. The guy who called before was also likely Barry himself. Donnie was

the kid that I met in CES many years ago, and he disappeared. I believe his boyfriend did something, harmed him in some way, his mother thought. In the file, there's some information that you had spent some time with Donnie before the disappearance, like you spent some time with him in April in 1995. Yeah, I actually drove him from Florida to his mom's house. Okay, okay. So you met Donnie in Florida?

Yep, I met Donnie in U.S. Florida. We got in a fight with his boyfriend. At least what I remember, this is so long ago. But I believe his boyfriend was abusive in some way, and he was kind of stranded. So I was actually heading back up to Toronto. So I actually self-driving. Okay.

So back in March of 95, you met Donnie in Key West. Yes. Okay. And did you know anything about his relationship with Shane? I knew that he had problems with him. Okay.

I mean, he didn't go into details about it. Okay. Okay. And then, did you ever take Donnie to Toronto with you?

Yeah, he actually went, he went up to Toronto on the way back. Okay, and did Shane go with you at that time as well? No. No. I never, and did Shane go with you at that time as well? No.

No. I never... I met Shane very briefly. It wasn't something that, you know, that we were friends or acquaintances or anything like that. Okay, and what was your opinion of Shane Gunther at the time? I know he was a real fitness fanatic. He was totally into the gym and working out.

I did recall that he did say he had a bad temper. Okay, and so did Donnie ever call you and tell you where he was at any time in sort of 1995 in that spring? The only time I remember hearing from him was once, and he was in Santa Barbara, or in California for him. Okay, and he didn't call you, and he was in another state somewhere and said, hi, I'm in this state, and I'm with Shane? No, no, no. Okay, okay. Did you know that Donnie had disappeared, and how did you find out about that? I found out from his mother. His mother actually contacted me. She was convinced that something happened terrible. And so in the time that you knew Donnie, how long did you know him for?

Three weeks. It was just an important period of time because it preceded his disappearance. What was going on in Donnie's life when you knew him? I mean, honestly, the only thing I knew that he was having issues with is, you know, with his partner. I mean, I knew that. I knew that was clear. I think he really relied on him for everything. I think he really relied on him for money. He was young. He didn't have a shit together, I guess.

Nice, nice guy, but he just you know, he just was in his own, I mean, what I can remember, it's so long ago. Barry drove Donnie on a trip to Toronto that seemed to last only two or three days. Then he says he dropped Donnie off at Debra's place.

Yeah, but I dropped him off, and I literally spoke to him once after that and sent a barbel. You know, are you still with your mom? He said, no, I'm in California. And I was like, oh, well, that was a big change. From Barry, the recurring theme of Donnie suggesting Shane was abusive in some way, and now a suggestion that Donnie was reliant on Shane.

So I talked to Barry last night, and it was a really bad line. I didn't hear much in what he said that was different from what I read in the file. He cannot confirm that Donnie was ever in Mississippi, according to him, in his memory now. Do you remember meeting Barry at that time? No, I never met him, never. With Barry's information, I look back at Shane's statement to police. There, Shane mentions that he and Donnie went through something like a separation when they were in Florida in April.

So something happened between them in April. Donnie goes on the trip with Barry. Then Donnie reunites with Shane and they end up back in California to start their trip for the Mississippi Puppies in May 1995. When the officer asks Shane if he and Donald ever had a physical altercation, Shane says, no, only a play fight in D.C., and that he never beat Donnie up. Shane says that neither one of them is physical. You saw Donnie in April, right? After Toronto, you saw Donnie, right? Oh, I saw Donnie in May, too. And Shane may have even been at my house one time, right before Donnie left for what I call spring break,

for lack of, I don't know what to call it. He came to my house and he had some friends with him. The friends never came in the house, but he had some people out at the pool. We had a big in-ground pool. I can't remember any faces, but I know there was a couple guys out there and it could have very well been Shane, who knows.

And I remember giving Donnie some money. I want to say it was like $220 bills, and we hugged and all that stuff, and then that was when it came forward. But that was in May. Something else I notice in the file. Shane says he dropped Donnie off in New Orleans on May 26th, and he also says that Kyle came to Mississippi five days later, so May 31st.

However, one of Shane's gas receipts that police found was dated June 1st and places Shane in El Paso, Texas, which is he had to leave New Orleans or Macomb on May 31st, and so by this timing would likely have not even seen Kyle. Turn off doubt. Turn off fears. The YMCA helps you turn off whatever's holding you back so you can let your potential shine. Through our wide range of programs and services, you can turn on confidence, turn on connections, turn on possibilities. Visit our website to see what you can achieve at the YMCA.

This will be the day. Are you sure you parked over here? Do you see it anywhere? I think it's back this way. Come on. Hey, you're going the wrong way. Feeling distracted? You're not alone.

Whether renting, considering buying a home, or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds. For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. It seems like that anybody that we could have used has, you know, because the cases are old, they have died, and we're running out of options. If Shane did ever say something to someone else about his time with Donnie Izzett Jr., that is of utmost importance.

If anybody listening remembers any conversations they might have had with George Shane Gunther that could clear up any aspect of this case. Please get in touch. I've talked to people close to Kyle to see what they remember him telling them, but they say Kyle only told them anything once Deborah found him. But there is one person he remembers telling who's different. Someone he says he told 20 years ago. So all this time, were you still thinking that helping to burn Donnie's body with Shane was a

dream? That was at the time when I was coming to recovery, thinking about like, okay, what am I hiding from you? And that's where I told Craig, you know, my ex, does it happen? And he said, well, maybe it didn't happen. I'm sitting with Kyle at the Los Angeles financial office he works at. Beside him on the computer screen, what looks like a mortgage spreadsheet he's been working on. When did you tell Craig? It was maybe 2000. And did he do anything or say anything to you to try to get you to...

No, he just, he was worried about me. He just said, hey, don't say anything, because he didn't want me to get in trouble or anything. He said, just don't say anything. If no one's contacted you now, then, you know... Hello? Hi there, I'm looking for Craig Anderson. Yes. My name's David Ridge, and I work for the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. If Craig remembers Kyle telling him the story

of what happened in Mississippi from around the year 2000, and the story is the same, it goes towards strengthening Kyle's credibility. I work on this podcast where I'm looking at the disappearance of Donnie Izzett, and I'm working with Debra, Donnie's mother, and I'm interested to interview you about your experience in dealing with your former partner, Kyle, and what you remember from what Kyle might have told you around the period that Donnie disappeared. I never met Donnie. He was always Shane's boyfriend. I didn't know his name, actually.

Shane was a really crazy fuck. I didn't socialize with him much. He was always Shane's boyfriend. I didn't know his name, actually. Shane was a really crazy fuck. I didn't socialize with him much. He was strange. He really was. And Kyle moved in across the street from me in 95 and started dating. I don't remember him telling me a story or anything like that.

But it's something like Shane had shot someone. But also, remember, I'm thinking he's just paranoid and he's telling stories that Shane shot someone. But Craig says Kyle was using ketamine at the time, and often in a drug-induced daze, so it was easy for him to ignore the details he was hearing about what happened in Mississippi. In later conversations Craig had with Truett Simmons, he confirms again that Kyle told him details about his trip to Mississippi, identical details we heard him tell us 20 years later. Have you spoken to Freddie about what he knows?

Um… Have you spoken to Freddie about what he knows? Deborah and I are back in Mississippi, and I'm asking her again about Shane Gunther's brother, Freddie. I was here last year, and I went to Freddie's house, taking pictures, and this guy comes out on the porch, and I just started playing it off. Oh my gosh, I love this old house. I'm into history. And so he's talking to me that his brother bought the house and he said, would you like to see it? And I said, yes. So we went in and when that door shut, I was like, what the heck did I just do? But we went through every room in the house. He's

telling me all about his brother. I'm thinking, yeah, I know about him. But he didn't know it was me until later. Deborah did all this on her own, not recommended by police, or me for that matter, for safety's sake, but also inspiring to me nonetheless for the gathering of information's sake. Freddie Gunther could be a key to understanding Shane's whereabouts around the time of Donnie's disappearance. Just driving through the rain down the main streets here in Macomb towards Fred Gunther's place.

Shane Gunther, in his statement to police, said that around the time Donnie disappeared, May 24th, May 25th, 1995, that Shane stayed with his brother at his house near New Orleans. After leaving a bar and leaving Donnie there with another man. So I want to check with Fred if that alibi is true. Did Shane stay with Fred on that night? Freddie used to live near New Orleans, and Shane says in his statement that he stayed with him. If he didn't, it might cast some doubt on this crucial part of his story. I pull up near the dilapidated mansion, and it doesn't take long for Freddie to emerge

with his beige retriever-type dog. Freddie's got short cropped silver hair with a taupe t-shirt, grey pants and is about five foot nine. Hey Fred, how are you? Are you Fred? I'm Dave Ridgen and I work for Canadian Broadcasting. I'm working on the case of Donnie Izzett. Yeah. And your brother Shane was named in a civil suit recently as being involved in that case. And he used you in an alibi that he gave to police.

You're recording all this? Yes, this is for a podcast that I work on. Well, I'm trying to, you know, I've been every direction, you know, with this, that, and the other. And it seems like everything that's going on right now, you know, I'm trying to just look back and see the whole picture and trying to figure out what's going on with it all. So it's a sticky situation to begin with. Has Shane spoken to you about it?

I've already talked to Izzy's mother. He had called me several times. Oh yes. We had talked a number of times. Did Shane ever talk to you about this case? Did he ever talk to you about Donnie, is it? Yes, he had mentioned a few things and I'd rather just sort of leave it at that because you know you got his story, his side of things, and then you got Izzy, and then, you know, somebody that I'd never even known the individual. And then, you know, 25 years later, all of a sudden, you know, you find out about this. Shane said that he stayed with you at the house

where you used to live near New Orleans around the 24th or 25th, 1995. Do you remember him staying with you at the house where you used to live near New Orleans around the 24th or 25th, 1995. Do you remember him staying with you that night? Well, I already talked to the investigators about all that. And what did you tell them? I'd rather just talk to somebody else other than, you know, a microphone. I could be, you know, I don't want to say anything incriminating I just you know he's got himself a lawyer as he's working on her side and everything that's going on in Fernwood so let me ask you this thing it's just a matter of time do you think your brother had anything to do with Donnie is it's death well the way it looks it looks like you know they're they're they're getting uh they're looking

they're over in fernwood looking and they've been looking for two years so it seems like you know it's all that stuff takes a long time to finally it takes takes time. It's just, it's taking time for the whole investigation. Everybody brings everything to the table. Throughout our chat, Freddie is retreating ever so slowly toward the front door. Each of my questions will stop him for a bit, then he'll continue his fallback, bringing the dog on the leash with him. Do you think he killed Donnie, though? I would rather just stay in neutral territory with that. Let me just tell you this. My mother was interviewed, my grandmother, 25 years ago, then my sister.

I didn't know a thing about it. Nobody ever told me a thing about this until two years ago when I got a card. A private investigator wanted to talk to me when I moved in here. So you were never interviewed by police back then? Were you ever interviewed by police back then, 25 years ago? No, they never talked to me. And I told them zero plus zero is zero. That's the extent of what I knew about the whole situation. Were you in Macomb at the time?

I don't know where I was. I don't know. Did you know Donnie? I think I was in, no. I never met him, never saw him. Did Shane ever tell you he was here with him? Well at one time with my sister's situation, but that's, you know, I don't want to get into something that, you know, I'd rather just see what happens and let Izzy's mother,

you know, with what just came out in the paper, I was in a state of shock. So, I understand. What more do you say? I got one more question. I hope they come down to the bottom of this. I hope they do too. I mean, I'm tired of just, you know, I'm going through an issue with the estate of my dad that passed away and, you know,

you just like to see a finalization of things because sometimes things take a whole lot longer than, you know, so than you know so you know I'm just dealing with a lot right now did your brother call you at the time and ask you to help him with anything or so he was I think he was in California so I don't know you know maybe you go talk to my sister right see what she says this house is kind of old nice place that this Shane owns this house right yeah he does yes

yeah I moved in here I told him I said look I can't make a decision on it you can have to come take a look so he came out and took a look and he got it from the people over here in a week's time, and then he flew back to Seattle. And I've been working on it for two years. I don't know if I want to keep it or... It's a big job. I mean, it's a real neat old house. Yeah.

And so... Do you stay in touch with Shane? Are you in touch with him? Yeah, I keep in touch with him. I mean, I keep in touch with my sister, too. I was going to call her because she keeps in touch with him? Yeah, I keep in touch with him. I mean, I keep in touch with my sister, too. You know, I was going to call her because she keeps in touch with Izzy, and she just called me to the point where, look, I just need to step back. I'm just getting all this information, and, you know,

you don't know what's true, what's not true, and everything in between. Yeah. Here and several times in the conversation, Freddie's called Donnie by the name Izzy, a term of familiarity. Kyle has told Debra and Truett that Shane named one of his puppies Izzy after Donnie. The other dog's name was allegedly Shit. It makes me wonder if Freddie has spoken to Shane about Donnie more extensively than he's letting on. So I'd rather just step back and look and see for myself and say, OK, and let the investigation continue. Freddie's hand is on the front doorknob now. I don't think I can keep him talking much longer.

Have you been in touch with your brothers since they discovered this object or these things they think might be human remains out on the farm? He's got himself a lawyer. I don't know, but I just know that he keeps up with prevalent things going on in Macomb. Okay. Thanks.

Thank you very much. I asked Truett what Freddie said to him. Did Shane stay with Freddie on the night he said he did? But Truett is keeping that card close and won't tell me. Well, at this point, I don't want to talk about that. You know, Freddie and I did talk about that. Okay. But some of the information he gave me about that, I'm trying to and I did talk about that. Okay. But some of the information

he gave me about that, I'm trying to keep close to me right now without putting it out there, David. I hate to be that way, but that's just... That's fine. Perhaps Freddie does hold some answers for this case, and like his brother Shane,

it would be great if he could help clear up some of the lingering questions. I get a text from Debra saying that she may not be able to speak to me as openly as she has before, as part of a potential settlement in the civil suit against Shane. Are you able to tell me anything about what you're considering with the civil suit? Like, basically, do you want to settle? Is that what you're considering? Just on the civil end, of course.

Like, if I do a settlement, then there would be a gag order. It cannot be discussed. Was there any suggestion of what they would ask for in return of giving you a settlement? Just that the lawsuit is closed, can't be reopened, and there's a gag order. Yeah. But, I mean, I've went over it and over it and sent it, and I've sent it in text messages, everything, and emails,

that I will not, no way, shape, or form, give up anything criminally. I don't care how much money is involved. Nor give up any type of rights to tell my story, tell Donnie's story, whatever it is I feel like doing at some point after the fact. After a process of about 10 months, Deborah's wrongful death suit against Shane Gunther regarding Donnie's disappearance ended with a settlement. Now, a settlement is not an admission of anything. People settle out of court for many reasons. But without having to give a statement, Shane settled with Deborah, paying her an undisclosed monetary sum. Her lawyers, Macomb-based Ronnie Whittington and New Orleans-based Bill Goodwin

took 40% of this sum plus expenses. Whether District Attorney Dee Bates will follow this with a grand jury proceeding with an eye on a criminal trial continues to be a question and I still don't know for certain based on the differing opinions of the forensic doctors, exactly what the samples are that were pulled from the ground. But there may be another way to check.

During the dig, I took soil samples from the area of the fire pit and where the potential bone fragments were found. I then sent these samples to two different cadaver dog handlers, Kim Cooper, a Canadian cadaver dog expert based in the Ottawa area, and Mary Cable, who leads a team in Reno, Nevada. Those results are in, and they may help D.A. Bates with his decision. I will say we got indications at different points on different jars as well, but the preponderance of weight was that just about every dog we put onto that

particular jar really liked that one. Listeners will remember Ottawa-based cadaver dog specialist Kim Cooper from season one. There, her team helped invaluably in the case of missing Adrian McNaughton. And since then, her teams and handlers have helped solve other cases by finding human remains. Kim recently ran four trained cadaver dogs past the soil samples that were taken from the Nobles' property, resulting in full indications on one germ in particular and heightened interest in the others. It was that the preponderance of interest was on this particular sample. But we got indications on some of the other samples haphazardly from different dogs too. Two of the dogs, Reki and Knox, are certified by police to recognize and indicate on human remains,

barking and making specific actions in relation to their handler. Grief, one of Kim's more experienced dogs, did not go through police certification this year due to injury. And her most experienced dog, Breeze, did not go to certification because of her age. But both can still do the job. Here's Breeze indicating on the sample from Noble's property. And she came in, hit the first jar, and instantly vocalized whining and crying. The preponderance of the dog's interest, Kim says, was on the jar of soil taken from the fire pit, or feature, where the fragments were discovered by Lynn Funkhauser's team. This pit is close to the area Owen was pointing to

when he was helping with the old photo in the trees. I went back in and I shuffled the jars. Oh, okay. So at that point, I was the only one who knew where the jar that had got the most attention. I was the only one who knew where it was. Nobody else knew. Okay.

And on this run, three of four dogs indicated on one particular jar. It was the jar that got the majority interest on the first run. And Grief, her injured dog, got his chance later on. Yeah, so when I get home, of course, my curiosity was just eating at me at this point. And I'm driving home going, I got another cadaver dog at home. So this time I set it out on my front lawn and just popped Grief out. Grief has not worked in two years. He's had medical issues and he's no longer physically able to do the work.

I popped him out and he ran out to the jars and he promptly, very promptly, indicated on the same jar as the one that we had had all the interest in. While Kim's dogs were interested in the soil from the fire pit feature where the fragments were found, they also showed heightened interest in some of the other dig areas too. And then, after the COVID-19 restrictions ease, I send the jars to Mary Cable in Reno for a double check. All of the Nevada dogs are trained and certified by state police, and the results that come back are stunning. So what I can tell you, very interesting,

is all the dogs agreed on TU Feature 1 and definitely primary burn. The names of the samples that Mary is reading come from what I was told to write on the labels by Lynn Funkhauser to indicate exactly which area they're taken from. Definitely TU Feature 2. What Mary is saying is that her dogs all performed final trained responses on the same sample that was taken from the fire pit where the fragments were found. The same area where I sampled the soil that elicited final responses from Kim Cooper's team. The dogs agree.

So would you say then that there's likely human remains in the area there? I can just tell you that three single-purpose HRD dogs went to final response at TU Feature 1. Before I used the sampler, I cleaned it thoroughly with 99% alcohol, so anything in the jars was only from Dr. Noble's property. I did not clean it between the various sample areas, so there is a chance that soil from one fire pit feature could have transferred from one jar to another, but the overwhelming response points toward the same place

where the fragments were found. Debra, the second set of dogs reacted to the soil samples. No freaking way! The Nevada dogs, the Canadian dogs reacted to the soil samples. Full responses. These are dogs trained in human remains detection. Ooh. You there? Yeah.

I was trying to catch my breath. We call Truett and tell him the news, and he's very interested in getting back to the Nobles for more digging We'll keep you updated, but for now, I trust the dogs In my opinion, Deborah's and Truett's it's worth another look for more samples on the Nobles' property It appears that there are human remains there I am so freaking ecstatically happy, I can't stand it.

I will pay whatever to get those dogs there, when and if they can. I truly 100% believe that Donnie was burnt there, and he is there, and so for me to believe these dogs, absolutely. Donnie's disappearance destroyed Deborah's life, and his case thus far has no semblance of a satisfying ending, despite the progress she has made.

Kyle's revelations confirmed her worst beliefs and provide a foothold for prosecutors, but the current district attorney has yet to call a grand jury, and the prime suspect, since the fall of 1995, hasn't had to speak on the record about his version of what might have happened. With all we have heard and found, I think Donnie was at the Nobles' farm in his final moments, but what definitively happened to him there remains a question. What was Shane's role, if any? Deborah doesn't trust anyone.

Police in the beginning of the process in Maryland let her down. But Deborah continues, and she tells me every week how she is still focused on Donnie and pushing wherever and whoever she can to find answers. This quest defines her life. I'll update you on anything significant that happens in Donnie's case. There's a lot of directions it can go, and with Debra involved, it might go quickly. I'm so curious what life is going to be like when we get closure. I just can't, I keep saying God didn't bring me this far. And there can't be this many people on our team and it not happen. I can't accept that.

Closure is acceptance though. What I mean by, it's never gonna be closure in that sense. I mean, what I mean that is a piece of Donny to take home. Yeah, yeah. I wish I could remember how Dr. Nobles' wife said it to me about this property and that the unfortunate thing that happened to my son here on this property and that the unfortunate thing that happened to my son here on this property but what a peaceful and beautiful place to be. It is. So that that

it gave me some comfort and I feel when I'm here I feel at peace I want to be alone I mean it's it's emotional but yet it yet it's the only place I have for you. It's not like I could take him home and have my place. It's here. To be continued... You've been listening to Episode 5, The Test. This is the last regular episode for Season 6, Donald Izzet. Visit cbc.ca slash sks to learn more about the Donnie Izzet case or to listen to past seasons of the show. To see images from the investigation, find us on Facebook at Someone

Knows Something or on Instagram at CBC Podcasts. If you wish to submit an anonymous tip about the Izzet case, email sks at cbc.ca. And if you're looking for another show to listen to, subscribe to Uncover, another award-winning investigative series from CBC Podcasts. Each season explores a different true crime and justice story. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by

me, David Ridgen. The series is produced by Eunice Kim, Chris Oak, and Cecil Fernandez, with help from Mikal Arana and Emily Connell. Transcriptions by Luke Williams-Perron, Christian Jebson, Kelsey Cueva, Sarah Melton, Rasha Shahata, and Varad Mehta. Evan Agard is our video producer. Ben Shannon designed our artwork. Special thanks to Fabiola Carletti, Judy Zigu, Amanda Cox, and Phil Lung. Thank you. Our theme song is I Once Was a Bird by Justin Bird.

Down the dirt road Into the cornfield I sat alone The sky was not blue And the earth did not move I could not fly anymore I once was a bird The mountains I climbed Were billowing white

I was prince of the sky Of hollow bone Precise eyes Victorious cry Hall of only precise eyes, victorious cry I could not fly anymore I once was a bird Nightmare Grabbed me And held me down

I swear Strip me there Of my native feathers I once knew with ages Now I walk with men Down the dirt road Into the cornfields I laid myself down

A butterfly marks me With a beautiful flight I once was a bird. I once was a bird. I once was a bird. I once was a bird. Bird.