Someone Knows Something - S7 E7: Darkworld

Episode Date: June 14, 2022

An email arrives from a California prison: “Talk to you very soon.” In the season finale, David speaks to James Kopp, the man who shot and killed Dr. Barnett Slepian. What does the violence of the past mean for the future? For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/someone-knows-something-the-abortion-wars-transcripts-listen-1.6736516

Oh, hey there! I'm Andrew Fung and I want to tell you about my new series with ViaRail. Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard ViaRail's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze. No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences. For your next trip, do yourself a favor. Skip traffic and take Via Rail.

Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. This is a CBC Podcast. The following episode contains mature subject matter. Please take care. David? Yeah, hi John. So I've been in touch with James Kopp.

He's been messaging and he mentioned you and said that you might be interested in talking to me. So how did you come to know James Kopp? I met him in Atlanta. We went down there for, it might have been 1998, in the Democratic National Convention. The Democratic Party was the party supporting legal murder. So we went down there to protest that. John Dunkel is a long-time anti-abortion activist.

He calls abortion legal murder and refers to abortion providers as serial killers. He and Kopp actually met in jail in Atlanta after they'd been arrested at the abortion protest. I don't know if we talked much in jail, but he was certainly noticeable. Because he set up a little altar around his cot, I remember, and he had a lot to say about everything. He was just a fun guy.

I'm not sure I'd describe Cop as fun. He's of course back in prison again, serving a life sentence for the murder of Dr. Slepian. I've continued to actively message with him through a prison email system. I must have visited him in jail at least two dozen times, or more than that, maybe. Did you ever hear the term Underground Railroad describing helping activists in the anti-abortion movement? I never heard that term used that way,

but I know those things went on. I mean, I know that there were a lot of us pro-lifers who would do anything to protect the people who were trying to escape incarceration. And do you think that they would do it knowing what they were helping the person for? Well, if it happened to me, if Jim came to me and said, could you put me up for the night, you know, and I knew that he was going to go out and shoot a serial killer, that was his plan, I probably thought I'd talk him out of it. But I would certainly not refuse to put him up and not tell authorities. Jim never talked to you about the Canadian shootings in a way that you would think that he was involved in them? Yeah, we talked about it. I would ask him, you know, I'd say, did you get involved?

Because, you know, in the paper here was they traced his car and they did this and that. Did you do that? He denied it. So the people that did help him and knew what he was about to go do, should they be held accountable? The people who knew him did not try to talk him out of it. You know, I'll bet everybody who helped him, I'll bet every one of them tried to talk him out of it. Interesting. There's just so very few cops around. But there are just so many people who would help them anyway

because they think that they, I think deep down they think, well, I don't have the courage, but I have to help somebody who does. You know, I help them for sure. So very few cops around, says Dunkel. I've exchanged over 20 messages with Cop to date. All of his writings to me include Latin expressions like Pax for peace or DV for Dio Volent or God willing, but there are also lots of smiley text emojis. It's like a kind of code. Everything is monitored and Cop is clearly used to carefully communicating like this. I push regularly to speak on the phone because I want to hear his voice and ask the questions, but the conversation

circles back on itself with Kopp mentioning more people I should talk to. And it goes on and on until, suddenly, the message I've been waiting for comes through. James Kopp says talk to you very soon. I'm David Ridgen and this is Someone Knows Something season 7 episode 7 Dark World. Hi is that Amanda? It is, can you hear me now? Given Cop's last message to me, a phone call from the prison could happen at any time, and I'm on constant alert. In the meantime, Amanda and I decide to keep pushing forward. Ideally, before any call with Cop, we decide to prioritize speaking to anyone who might have been close to him, who may have information, starting with Jennifer Rock. I've always wanted to talk to Jennifer Rock. I've wanted to talk to her for 20 years.

She was the person who got Jim out of the country right after the murder. And then she drives him all the way from New York to Mexico, apparently stopping at Michael Bray's on the way. This is Jen. Oh, hi. Is this Jennifer? Yes, it is. Oh, hi, Jennifer. It's David Ridgen calling from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation.

How are you? I'm a podcaster up here. I'm well. How are you? Okay. I just wanted to reach out to you because I'm making a podcast I'd like to involve you in. It's about the anti-abortion scene, about some shootings in Canada of abortion doctors. No, I'm not interested.

Good luck. No one said it would be easy. According to a source, Amanda has found Rock and Cop made a stop at Lutheran minister Michael Bray's place, supposedly in November 1998, before heading to Mexico. Bray had military experience and is a convicted abortion clinic bomber, said to be a member of the Army of God. He seems to have known Kopp and several others on the extreme end of anti-abortion violence and is an organizer of one of the better-known anti-abortion gatherings known as the White Rose Banquet. Here's Bray speaking outside of Kopp's trial in Buffalo in 2003.

He killed a murderer. He killed a murderer. The murderer is Mr. Slepian. Mr. Kopp is the defender of the innocent. The same year, Bray was asked by CBC if Kopp had ever spoken to him about the shootings in Canada. No, he has not. If he had, I wouldn't tell you. Why not? Because I support such action I wouldn't want to frustrate it

Please leave a message Thank you Hi this is a message for Michael Bray. It's David Ridgen calling from Canada, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, making a podcast that I'm interested in involving you in an interview. Hello, hello, hello. Oh, hey, is this Mr. Bray? This is he, yes.

Hi, thanks for picking up the phone. It's Dave Ridgen here calling from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Uh-huh. Yeah, I got an interest. What do you want to do with this? How do you want to work this? Well, I can do it on the phone right now if you want. You know what?

We're about to head out the door. You want to set up another time? Sure. We set up a time for the next day, and I call. Three times. The first goes to message, and the next two seem to be picked up, then hung up. Hello? Hello?

Yeah, I think that's a hang up. Hello, Mr. Bray? And he doesn't get back to me. Back on the Canadian side of the border, I try a couple of other activists, known on the ground to have more extreme views, but nothing back from them yet. Hi, this is David Ridgen calling from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. Time to focus on more potentially key people and the unsolved shootings of Canadian doctors Romalis, Short and Feynman. The border crossings to and from Canada and the U.S.

around the time that each of the three Canadian doctors were shot point to James Kopp and Loretta Mara. Vehicles registered to both Kopp and Mara were recorded crossing according to documents, and on at least one occasion, they were actually seen together. Information from Jack Steele, the confidential informant, makes me want to ask Dennis Malvesi some questions too. Mara and Malvesi live together in the northeastern US. I'm going to try to talk to Dennis Malvesi and Loretta Mara. I'll try calling the number I think

they both use. Hello? Hi, is that Dennis? Yes, who's this? Hi, Dennis. It's David Ridgen here. I'm a podcast host at the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. I'm making a podcast that I'd like to involve you in and Loretta, if possible, about abortion. You'll have to talk to my wife, okay? Can I call you back at a certain number? Or do you want to... Yeah, yeah.

So give me your phone number and are you in canada yeah i'm in canada can we call canada loretta okay yeah we don't want to call us back uh loretta are you going to be able to talk to mr david ridgen i don't even know how he got our number. So he should call us back one, about an hour, and we'll figure it out. Tomorrow? Okay, tomorrow, David. Call tomorrow? What's a good time for you?

What's a good time, Loretta? Any time in the morning is fine. Hello? Oh, hi. Is that Loretta? Speaking. Mara's precise relationship to Kopp is largely unknown, but her involvement in actions with him over the years is well documented in the media and court documents. To my knowledge, she hasn't spoken to the media since her arrest

for aiding and abetting Kopp while he was on the run in the wake of Dr. Slepian's murder. I'm looking at actions in the 90s and what's changed in the tactics and abortion rights and looking at where we came from and where we are now and trying to assess what it means. is that no matter how much the journalist is in good faith and is really trying to accurately convey anything I might be trying to say, I just find that they always somehow get it wrong. My only interest would be if I could say anything with any assistance to bringing about the end of abortion, and I'm not sure that my voice would be helpful for that. I just care about unborn children not being killed.

And my voice is a controversial one, and many people reject wholeheartedly anything I would have to say, merely because it would be I who was saying it. So I don't know. I mean, I know that you probably don't trust journalists and don't trust I'm interested in truth-telling and, you know, people are telling the truth and their own truth and I'll broadcast that, you know. I've looked at your website and I see that you're also a cold case crime

investigator. And, yeah, I just think that probably I can't help any unborn children by having a conversation. Let me ask you a couple of questions and just see how you do it. How do you see your actions in the past? Like, do you regret anything? Specifically what things? Just any of the protesting or any of the other activities? No, I don't regret anything I did.

I have no interest in notoriety or, you know, been there, done that, got the T-shirt. I have no interest in anything but a private life. Right. Yeah, no, I understand. After, I mean, you served, it was two years, I think, for assisting COP, right? Two and a half. Two and a half years. And there are three unsolved shootings in Canada that I was looking at as well as part of this. And I was wondering if you had any knowledge about any of those shootings or any of the participants that might have been involved in that. Well, like I said, I don't think that anything I could say would be helpful to the unborn and therefore I don't think that I should have a conversation.

So would you be able to tell me if you were involved in any of those shootings in Canada? Is that something I could get you to... Oh, right. Yeah. Oh, for Pete's sake. David, I mean, come on. I gotta go. I gotta go. I wish I had more time with Loretta. The laugh answer I felt was cold.

She does tell me that Malvesi wants to speak to me. Unsure whether he will still agree to talk, I call the same number the following morning. Hello? Oh, hi, is that Dennis? Yeah, who's this? This is Dave Ridgen calling again. Oh, right, right? Oh, hi. Is that Dennis? Yeah, who's this? This is Dave Ridgen calling again. All right, right, right. Yeah. What can I do for you now?

After my interview with Mara, I'm not sure what Malvesi will give me, if anything, but he does seem to want to talk. But you've had a connection to the anti-abortion movement. I mean, you served some time for bombings, and I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about... Yeah, well, when I was doing the bombings, there was no such thing as the pro-life movement. I'd never heard of them until after my fifth year in prison. Recall that Malvesi served seven years in the 1980s

for bombing clinics in New York State. What about the people now? I mean, do you feel any connection to the movement now? I mean, you're presenting yourself as an outsider. I am an outsider. I'm not part of them. They're what they call pro-lifers, the so-called pro-life movement. So I'm not into those guys.

They do their thing, and let me tell you something. They stand out here. They get beaten, spit upon. Those guys, you know, and only history is going to show they're doing the right thing. You know that though, right? You're a learned man. My bombs went off at two in the morning. There was no one present. Not only was there no one present, I would always coordinate with the fire department just in case somebody was passing by. Or some old lady fell asleep there, you know,

the janitor or something. You know, I was raised in the days when you were told, if you don't like it, do something about it. Well, I didn't like it and I did something about it. It's a big topic, you know, and there's lots of very strident points of view on it, and I'm trying to navigate them. Well, are you saying you can't understand why I blew up clinics? I mean, that's a no-brainer. Come on. So tell me in your words why you blew up clinics. To save babies. I was into that.

I did two combat tours in NAMS. I watched them kill Americans. I watched them kill babies there. And when I came back, I was called the baby killer. Meanwhile, the Americans were killing babies left and right. So I was just raised like that. Do you think exactly the same way? I mean, you haven't done any more bombings.

Yeah, I'm done. I did my thing for the babies. I'm just sorry I couldn't get more clinics. I'm just sorry they figured out who I was before I could get more. I mean, I don't mind saving American citizens, you know, it's a good thing to do. So you don't regret any of them? Oh, hell no. I just regret that I couldn't light up more of them. Are you kidding me? On February 4th, 1987, Dennis Malvesi turned himself in for the bombings of two New York clinics.

Well, they couldn't catch me, period. I had to give up because Cardinal Connor told me to do so. So I did that. So, too bad. I thought he would be on my side. Now, you went to jail again for assisting James Kopp as a fugitive. He happened to be a friend of my wife. I know they used to do some picketing together, I think. I told him I'd take the rap, you know, cut my wife loose, because I knew that was the game.

But the agents tell me, yeah, we don't do that stuff anymore. They owe me a son. Are you a producer? Oh, yes. And if you want to do a script, I mean, you know, half of North America hates people like me, Oh, yes. I am interested in hearing more from Malvesi about what he knows. Maybe discussing screenplay ideas is a way to do that.

I ask for his email address and press forward. Something else I heard about that is that there was a rifle, an SKS rifle, that you stored at the confidential informant's house? No, that was his. That wasn't mine. Oh, okay. Yeah, I used to run guns for him. Amanda and I ask Jack Steele, the FBI informant about this, and he tells us that around 1992, Malvesi did work with him in a gun operation, selling 40 or 50 guns, and that it was a, quote, one-time shot deal.

This is about six years before the period Steele says Malvesi brought the SKS rifle to his apartment, around and before October 1998, when Dr. Slepian was shot. Steele says Malvesi stored the gun there because Malvesi was still on parole. Okay. And he also has said that he bought a hat, binoculars, and flashlight with you that were found behind Dr. Slepian's house. Really? I didn't... That's not possible.

He said that there was a hat with New York on it and there was binoculars and some flashlight. It was probably his. It was probably his because he was working for the FBI. The guy was like a savant. He was an idiot, but he could remember a phone number from 20 years ago. I didn't find Jack Steele to be an idiot, but he could remember a phone number from 20 years ago. I didn't find Jack Steele to be an idiot,

but I doubt his work with the FBI improved his relationship with Malvesi or Mara. I try to zero in more on some of my outstanding questions. So there were three doctors, abortion providers up in Canada that were shot, Dr. Romalis, Dr. Shorten, Dr. Feynman. I'm looking at those cases too. I talked to Loretta about those shootings yesterday and she just laughed when I asked if she knew about them or had any involvement in them. Well, you know, the only thing I know about a female is the feds were hard to talk to

some girl by the name of Amy or something. So I don't know if that, is that who you're talking about? Amy is likely a reference to Amy Lynn Boissoneau, who died of breast cancer in February 2002. She was an anti-abortion activist and along with Kopp was reportedly arrested in 1990 while blockading women's clinics in Vermont. Kopp was supposedly interested in marrying her, but I think Malvesi probably knows I'm talking about Loretta. Well, no, it's actually the FBI documents that I have say that Loretta's car was used by Jim Kopp

and that Loretta herself was on some kind of scouting mission with James Kopp. I think I heard something about that, but I don't give it any, you know, I'm not worried about it. They aren't worried about it, so. Are you worried about it? I want to find out what happened. I'm into truth-telling. If there's any kind of chance for finding out what happened, the truth is important.

But it still causes... You're a journalist. How can you be into truth? You're lucky I'm talking to you. I mean, I understand. To journalists, you know, they just paint you as, you know, to what they want. I mean, a lot of them are really hiney heads. You seem like a nice guy. Well, I try to be fair.

But I'll email you and you can have my address and you can always call me if you want. And with that, our call comes to an end. All right, take care. Take care of yourself. And say goodbye to Loretta. Thanks. Bye.

Following my conversations with Mara and Malvesi, I sift through some newly arrived FBI and court documents. I discover that there was a plea deal where Loretta Mara helped convince James Kopp to waive extradition from France, and another potential plea deal where Loretta would assist in getting some kind of confession from James Kopp in the Slepian case. Both deals were seen as potential benefits to Malvesi as well.

In discussions around this potential second deal, one where Mara actually is allowed to speak alone with Kopp on a few occasions, one of the conditions proposed by the prosecutor is that Mara and Malvesi must answer questions about their knowledge of or concealment of the planning execution or the shooting of Dr. Barnett Slepian, a Rochester doctor, and of Dr. Jack Feynman in Manitoba. Why would the prosecution think Mara and Malvesi would have information specifically about Dr. Feynman's case? Before reviewing these documents, my understanding was that Dr. Short's case is the one generally assessed to have had the most circumstantial evidence about James Kopp's potential involvement in it. I messaged the now-retired prosecutor to see if she can remember about the Feynman detail in the plea deal

discussions, but she doesn't get back to me. Cop continues to email me, seemingly laying groundwork for an upcoming call, but it's like trying to read tea leaves from a thousand feet up. Will he call? Then, much earlier than I'd expect for California time, my phone rings. Hello, it's David Ridgen. Hi, it's Dave Ridgen. Hello?

Hi. This is Jim Cobb speaking. How are you doing today? oh hey there i'm andrew feng and i want to tell you about my new series with via rail join me as i ride on from toronto to ottawa and london aboard via's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze. No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy, and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London,

these cities are packed with amazing experiences. For your next trip, do yourself a favor. Skip traffic and take Via Rail. Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with ViaRail. Paid content with ViaRail Canada. At Desjardins, we speak business. We speak equipment modernization. We're fluent in data digitization and expansion into foreign markets.

And we can talk all day about streamlining manufacturing processes. Because at Desjardins Business, we speak the same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business. This call is from a federal prison.

James Kopp on the phone from prison in California. Jim Kopp, thank you so much for calling. Is this a good time? Yeah, no, this is good. This is good. Kopp does not sound like I expected from his emails. Lucid and calm. Mr. Rigid, you and me are friends talking. To get the ball rolling, I ask him what he thinks about Roe v. Wade and what's going on in the Supreme Court.

I just want to, I guess, start off with asking you about where you stand now. Yeah, first of all, I, well, I'm really not the one to talk about politics and stuff like that. I have an opinion, but it's just like anyone in the street, you know. I'm a specialist. I tend to worry about a child that's going to be dead within a matter of hours, you know. The Supreme Court doesn't worry about that. The pro-lock movement doesn't worry about that. A specialist. One that, like Malvesi, believes that Roe v. Wade will never be substantially reversed. He thinks that anti-abortion supporters in Texas aren't going far enough.

I've been in this business for a minute, and I tell you something. It's heartening to see a whole bunch of very powerful pro-lifers down in Texas sitting back and saying, there, we won the battle, what are you doing? And then they don't care. I try to get into the shootings. Have you stayed pretty much the same since the time of the Slepian shooting or whenever, you know, before that or, you know, whenever you were engaged? Yeah. If I understand the question, as you know, I told you the thing about Fresno and that informs every single thing I do.

I think about it all the time. I think about it at the current moment. It never leaves me any peace. Fresno is an incident Kopp says he experienced in Fresno, California. It's something he talks about a lot in his correspondence with me. It's also something he uses here to deflect my question. The Fresno incident is one that he says illustrates his belief that many abortions are forced upon women by others, notably men. As far as it relates to me, you know, a woman was beaten and dragged and slapped and kicked and dragged off into an abortion clinic for God's sake.

She had polio braces on her feet. She couldn't run away. She would have loved to run away. She would have loved to run over to where I was, calling to her. I cannot verify any of these details. I circle back on the shooting of Dr. Slepian again. Talk about Buffalo a bit more. Talk about how you see yourself in that particular scene with

Dr. Slepian in that shooting. It's the kind of thing, you know, when you're in here in jail doing life and you put your head on a pillow at night and you wake up in the morning, it's the kind of thing that you go, yeah, isn't that wonderful? Yes, it's terrible what happened to the Slepians. It's terrible what happened to my own family. A massive price was paid on both sides. I was not trying to kill the guy, but I was trying to injure him exactly like the Canadian guy. The man had three targets. Each of the three men made a public statement,

I will never do an abortion again, ever. You can scratch my name off some list you have. And that was my motive in Buffalo, and I failed at that. And that is a terrible, terrible thing what happened to him. Failed, Kopp says, because his shot killed Dr. Slepian, whereas the Canadian guy wounded his three targets, Drs. Romales, Short, and Feynman. Ramales was able to return to work. Short and Feynman weren't. Now, you're suggesting that you weren't responsible for any of the Canadian shootings. you know, to have that accuracy and to have that much... My God.

If I were that accurate, I'd be out of custody now, number one. And number two, Slepin would still be alive. I would be out. I could have a family, you know. I could be doing who knows what. And also Decker Slepin would still be alive. So how I wish. How I wish. But anyways, thinking about it and based on the information

I have and do not have in Canada, there's no doubt in my mind that he was a professional shooter. There's no doubt in my mind that the shooter was professional. I'm an amateur. That's why doctors slept in. It's not with us anymore. And that's why this is so terrible. And I just wonder when you talk about not being involved in those shootings,

in the Romales case, I've seen evidence that says that you were actually in those shootings in the ramalis case i've seen evidence that says that you were actually in the area at the time and is that is that not true were you not seen at the borders there and oh no hell no yeah no these are border like ncic reports that say that you were seen like on these various days in a car that was owned by Loretta Mara, scouting missions, and then the day of Dr. R. Maus is shooting that same car across the border just hours after. You know, those are the documents I've seen. Right. They know that in trial that's not going to do anything. And they also know, see my big point that I keep making,

that guy was a professional and I'm an amateur. And then in Hugh Short's case, I find that they've found DNA that's linked to you there on this balaclava they found on the driveway. Was that not... Who is Hugh Short? Dr. Hugh Short, Ancaster, Ontario. You were pulled over just the week before he was shot there on Highway 403, according to the police. They pulled you over in your car there. So that wasn't you?

It's definitely not me. Also recall that cop's car was recorded crossing the border into the U.S. from Ontario less than two hours after Dr. Short's shooting. I never did any of the Canadian things. See, I know the guy. I don't know the guy who did it, but I've heard of him. I'm convinced the guy up north was about to retire. He was an HRT shooter up there.

He was about to retire. He did his thing. If he had been caught, he said fine, but he got away with it, I guess, and kept going. Then there's the shootings up north that are off record. No one ever called the police for them. In the U.S., the term HRT stands for Hostage Rescue Team. I press on Kopp's suggestion that there were unreported shootings of abortion providers in Canada.

You're saying that there were other shootings in Canada that weren't reported as anti-abortion shootings, or at least as shootings at all? I know it for a certain. You have to find those doctors, though. You have to go dig them out. It's the same thing in the United States. This call is from a federal prison. There are other shootings in the U.S. that we have found that may have been perpetrated by anti-abortionists, but were called something else, like a robbery.

It'll be tough to verify cops' claim about unreported Canadian shootings unless someone listening comes forward. Our time is almost up. I try to press further on Dr. Feynman's case, the third unsolved shooting in Canada. Dr. Feynman in Manitoba, again, a black 1987 Cavalier registered apparently to you was seen going over the border after his shooting. And so at all these times with a car or vehicle or you're being seen, it isn't your car? Let me answer you this way. I'll tell you how the squad torched abortion clinics in the United States because I heard it from the horse's mouth. Disenfranchised by Janet Reno. Do you follow that? You know what happened in the 90s, right? She went in there and she said to these people, you can't chase after the mob anymore. You got to chase after the pro-lifers. And they were frustrated.

Here, Kopp provides a convoluted theory similar to one Amanda Robb found in her reporting on the case in 2002 that was used by Kopp's supporters prior to his confession, that the shooting of Dr. Slepian had been undertaken by an FBI agent to impress Janet Reno, who was U.S. Attorney General from 1993 to 2001. In 1998, Reno did create a task force to investigate violence against health care providers and in response to the murder of Dr. Slepian. But in Kopp's version of events, the task force that Reno created was made up of disenfranchised FBI agents who worked to frame anti-abortion activists.

Kopp starts to hypothesize as to how an FBI team would have carried out anti-abortion actions, including blowing up clinics, which he refers to here as mills. I slip out the back door. I go check out the mill. First of all, I disarm the alarms, which is what I did in the 90s before I got into shooting, right? I was a bad shooter, but the other stuff went much better. So Kopp first says he copied the Canadian guy and then infers that it was actually a frame job by FBI agents responsible. I keep pressing.

In Slepian, then, there's been some speculation by family responsible. I keep pressing. In Slepian, then, there's been some speculation by family and others that I've spoken to that you might have had some help in that case. Did you do all the work on your own? Were you being helped? I mean, Loretta Mara's connected to you. I know that Dennis Malvesi was connected. Again, like the Canadian thing, I wish I had been the Canadian shooter because if I did, I could stop being alive. Well, the thing that you just said is, did I have any help? I wish I'd had help.

I wish to God I'd had some help. But that one, I operated alone, and that's why I got caught. Our call is interrupted. The prison line apparently disconnects automatically after 15 minutes. Our call is interrupted. The prison line apparently disconnects automatically after 15 minutes. The last thing he said was, I wish to God I had had some help, but that one, I operated alone,

and that's why I got c... That one? I send the recording of the call to Amanda. I questioned him about the shootings. And there was that one moment where he said, he kind of slipped up on something. Do you notice that one? Yeah.

He says, did I have help? I wish I'd held help. I wish to God I'd had some help. But on that one, I operated alone. That's what it was? Yeah. That was it? I thought it was a total tell. On that one, I operated alone.

In my opinion, saying that one, and to some extent even in the 90s before I got into shooting, implies that there were other shootings involving Kopp. I messaged retired FBI informant handler Michael Osborne to get his thoughts on Kopp's claims of not being the Canadian shooter and that he was an amateur. Osborne tells me amateurs don't maintain a fugitive status like Kopp did. He and his support network were in sync. Kopp also described himself as an expert shot to Lou Michel of the Buffalo News, and Lou says Kopp had really bragged to him about how he had worked with the Russian SKS rifle. The rifle had a homemade bullet catcher attached for the Slepian shooting, and the butt was taped for balance to the liking of the shooter, not the actions of an amateur. Also, Dr. Romalis could have easily faced the same fate as Dr. Slepian had he not applied a tourniquet. Dr. Romalis' own first aid tying that tourniquet is what helped to save his life,

not any shooter expertise who was trying to wound, not kill. According to a statement by the prosecution, one of the other Canadian doctors also had to prevent themselves from bleeding out. I'm not so sure about Kopp's claims that the shootings were so different. Maybe the Canadian shooter wasn't a professional trying to scare or maim doctors. Maybe the shooter was trying to kill them and failed. Kopp makes claims and uses various defenses in our conversation. In fact, he's tried to push forward an appeal in the U.S. courts based on his assertion that a trial judge did not allow him to argue that he was saving the lives of children, that by killing a doctor,

he prevented future murders. Whether or not any future constitutional Supreme Court decisions will impact his argument, only time will tell. I feel kind of sometimes like I'm continuing your obsession, like I'm actually creating part of the problem. Because you came saying you had this obsession with abortion doctor shooters and obviously BARTs shooting, and then I don't know if I've helped with that. I feel like you've brought me peace. I mean, I've been all alone with this, you have to imagine, for 20-some-odd years. And with you, I got somebody who wanted to deal with it with me

and wanted to dig into things with me. And we found, I think, some new information, but the full truth seems just out of reach. You know, the idea that who are the helpers? Are we ever going to be able to find that? And then it made me think, like, how do you reconcile with the tragedy, really? Like, how can we do that without the full truth?

Well, I don't know that you ever reconcile i mean a tragedy is a tragedy it's a hole in your heart and that's just what it is i guess the real question is do we have to reconcile with tragedy i just i have to try to understand why i mean i just do i mean it's sort of it's my nature. I have to figure stuff out. And so, you know, yeah, I can live with it. But I always live with it. Like every story I've ever done, like you never, I've never, I don't think ever, like gotten every single answer I wanted. I think what you do is you get to a point like where if you squint, you can see the picture, you know? Yeah. Even with pieces missing.

And I feel like I can squint now and see much more of the picture of what happened. And I mean, this is really like, you you know the bedrock tragedy of my life and yet it's been the best work experience of my life and so it's a very strange thing I mean I very much enjoyed working with you it's so strange because it's such a sad, painful subject, but I am so sad our work is almost over. Thanks for involving me in the case. I hope that Lynn and the other family members think that it was worth their time. You don't know what it means to have someone just care, because mostly everyone goes on with their time. You don't know what it means to have someone just care, because mostly everyone goes on with their lives. I'm going to keep the lines of communication open with James Kopp. He told me he'd be listening and

my phone's on. The evidence in the shootings of Dr. Ramales, Dr. Short, and Dr. Feynman is circumstantial, but I think compelling. The terror that was inflicted at that time on family and community is still being felt, and the extreme beliefs that led to that terror are still present today. We see it in polarization, under the guise of traditional values, and in the gavel of the Supreme Court. Regardless, I still want to know what happened and why, and try to, in the least, keep talking about it and see where that goes. This is the final regularly planned episode this season. If there is anyone listening who has information about the Canadian shootings,

they shouldn't hesitate to contact me. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by me, David Ridgen. The series is also produced by Hadil Abdel-Nabi, Steph Kampf, and Amanda Robb, with help from Eunice Kim and Ashley Mack. Sound design by Evan Kelly. Emily Cannell is our digital producer, and our story editor is Chris Oak.

Transcriptions by Natalia Ferguson, Mina C. Yoon, and Luke Williams Perron. Evan Agard is our video producer. Ben Shannon designed our artwork. Our cross-promo producer is Amanda Cox. Special thanks to Brayden Alexander, CBC Visual Resources, and to Diana Rettigeld at the CBC Reference Library.

Our executive producer is Cecil Fernandez. The director of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani. Our executive director is Leslie Merklinger. If you want to help new listeners discover the show, please rate and review wherever you listen. Find us on Twitter and Facebook by searching Someone Knows Something or on Instagram at CBC Podcasts. If you're looking for more investigations,

check out the past seasons of Someone Knows Something, from a mysterious bomb hidden in a flashlight to two teenagers killed by the KKK. There are six seasons of SKS available to binge listen now on the CBC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.