Someone Knows Something - S7 E8: “A Network of Support”

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

On June 24, 2022, the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, ending decades of constitutional protection for abortion rights. In this special update episode of SKS Season 7, David Ridgen checks in with Amanda Robb, Lynne Slepian and Diane Derzis, the owner of the clinic at the heart of the Supreme Court case. For transcripts of this series, please visit: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/podcastnews/someone-knows-something-the-abortion-wars-transcripts-listen-1.6736516

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Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. This is a CBC Podcast. I don't even have words. I mean, I truly don't have words. I mean, I'm horrified. I don't think this is the safe place for my daughter. I'm upset. What can I say?

Amanda Robb on the phone with me soon after the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, the case that protected access to abortion in the U.S. for the past 50 years. Now that the federal ruling has been struck down, many states have already banned abortion or are in the process of doing so. There'll be abortion access for the time being anyway on the coast. And then all those poor women in the middle of the country, unless they have resources, are just fucked. I'm not in a very optimistic mood about this country right now. Season 7 was an investigation into unsolved anti-abortion shootings in Canada and the U.S.

In the process, I spoke to many people who believed in access and many who did not. And I spoke to families who were interested in finding justice. I wanted to follow up with some of them to see what they thought in the wake of the Supreme Court decision to overturn Roe v. Wade. What did it mean for each of them? What are the repercussions for everyone? And where will the activism go? Where will it refocus? I'm David Ridgen, and this is Someone Knows Something,

a Season 7 update episode. Do you think that the anti-side has thought of any of the repercussions that may actually impinge on their lives and their freedoms because of this choice? I don't know. I've made a living trying to get into the heads of people i can't understand that's what i try to do is try to understand people i think i can't understand but i make no presumptions of understanding or knowing what they're thinking or if they

thought about the repercussions or any of them have ever benefited from a woman in their lives having an abortion. I don't know. I don't know what they've thought through, and I don't know that they really care. To me, this is an ideological decision. I mean, most of the people who get abortions in this country are women with children. They're mothers. So you've got to find child care. You've got to take days off and not be paid for them. You've got to cover the cost of the transportation. I mean, this is a logistical impossibility, right? In these same states, there are people trying to criminalize leaving the state to get an abortion and criminalize helping somebody leave the state to get an abortion. And criminalize helping somebody leave the state to get an abortion.

A few weeks ago, if you'd asked me if any of that could ever come to pass, I would have laughed in your face. But like, yeah, sure, it could come to pass. Some people that I've spoken to who were involved in anti-abortion violence didn't seem to see it coming either. James Kopp, the man convicted of murdering Amanda's uncle Bart Slepian, was almost indifferent to the possibility. This call is from a federal prison. They'll never do it.

Even if you did have a reversal of Roe and even if Texas laws did stand, in Texas that's only 10% of the babies and moms. That's only 10%. The other 90% run for the borders. I think for extremists like Kopp, since the overturning doesn't completely eliminate all abortions, it will never be enough. I wonder what is next for the anti-abortion movement with this in mind. Is Roe being overturned only a beginning? Local action is what produces national results. In the course of Season 7, I spoke to Jameson Taylor, a policy strategist in Mississippi who helped that state's 2018 abortion ban

based on a 15-week window for abortion access. I'm a Christian. I was very grateful to God, frankly, for allowing me to play a small role in participating in this win. I believe that if we think about how divine providence worked in Donald Trump's life so that he becomes president but if we think about how divine providence worked in Donald Trump's life so that he becomes president, and we think about that same providence working in the lives of these different Supreme Court justices, you see just so many things came together to make this possible. I have two priorities that I'm going to be working on over the next year. The first priority is to help build out the nonprofit sector to provide additional services to women and children and families in crisis. The second thing, though,

is to pursue an amendment to our state constitution to protect life. You're going to continue to see pro-life laws around the country litigated. I've had people in the military tell me there are warriors and there are soldiers. And soldiers are there and they do what they have to do because that's their job. But warriors just love it and love to fight and love the blood and love the battle. I think these people are warriors, and there is nothing like it. I mean, they're just going to say,

well, there's still California, there's still New York, there's still this, there's still that. I don't see them being particularly happy. Yeah, I don't know that it's... I don't think it's a heel-clicking moment. I think it's probably more just, well, we got more work to do. Snap to it.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I wonder what your aunt thinks. Yeah, you know, you need to call her. She's pissed. I mean, her husband gave his life for this. Can you imagine how pissed she is? How heartbroken? I know what she thinks.

She's pissed. I'm pissed. I just can't fathom that it actually happened, to be honest with you. I'm mad. Lynn works long hours, full time, and I've reached her late in the day at her home. I'm always worried my intrusions might cause upset, but Lynn seems eager to get her thoughts off her chest. I'm just angry. I'm angry with the decision. I'm angry with just the politics in general right now. It's just so ugly.

I feel like I should go back to school and learn how to do abortion, set something up somewhere. You know, I'll do what I can. I know I'm in a state now, thank goodness, where we're still fine. But I just, I don't even know where to turn. You know, I feel like, even though it's really not, but I just feel like

Bart almost died in vain. Although it's really not, I know it's not, but it's just, he would have been mortified. He just would have, you know, the minute it was illegal, he would have stopped. He was not going to sneak around and do anything. But I've got to tell you, it's just, it angers me that it got to this point. There's been a lot of adoptions through his office as well, which a lot of people don't know. And it's very gratifying. But it just, you're putting somebody in crisis, in more of a crisis. Bart used to say he would never stop doing it while it was legal.

He would never want his patients, especially his own patients, to have to be sent somewhere else in a time of crisis to deal with this crisis. He said he would never do that to them. He said they're already in a bad place. He said, I'm going to send them to a stranger who they don't know to do something so personal. And I think that's how it all started with him. He just didn't want to put them in any more of a position and make it harder for them

than it was already. I just don't understand how this can be in this day and age, knowing what people know about medicine. And I'd be really sad if I had a young daughter. You know, I really would. I'd be very, very mad that the right was taken away. If you don't believe in it, fine, don't do it. But don't take the right away from the people that need the service. But never, you know, not to get back on him again, but he never. It was always a choice. He made you go home. He made you sleep on it. He

made you come back. Made you talk to somebody. It was never the kind of thing where it was always a choice. He made you go home. He made you sleep on it. He made you come back. He made you talk to somebody. It was never the kind of thing where it was just a rash decision. It's not even the actual abortion itself. It's just the fact that right was taken away. Even if you never needed it, it just feels like they chisel away at one more thing. Yeah. I don't know.

I just wonder what the anger that you feel, I wonder what that anger can do or will do in the sort of days and weeks and months and years to come. I wonder if that anger will help sustain some kind of change. It should at least wake people up to realize that this crap can happen. You know, it's not just because it was there for 50 years and you think it's set in stone. It's not. And just because we have a Democratic liberal president now, it doesn't mean that something

like that can happen. I'm just one person out of millions, but I mean, donate, don't vote anymore. These people into office. I mean, I don't know how we stop this. This is just a domino effect. I don't think we've seen the tip of the iceberg. I think these next elections are going to be crucial. Like I said, people have to vote. People have to be smart. They have to be up on the news. They have to help people travel

whatever funds they can afford to help with so that people can travel to other places that they can't afford it so that they can get safe health care. I hate to see it go back to when people can't afford to travel and end up dying because of it.

And it did happen. It's not just, it's not just propaganda. It did happen. People got sick. People got infections. People died. Oh, hey there. I'm Andrew Fung, and I want to tell you about my new series with Via Rail.

Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard Via Rail's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze. No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy, and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences.

For your next trip, do yourself a favor. Skip traffic and take Via Rail. Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with ViaRail Canada. for your business when the time comes. Because at Desjardins Business, we speak the same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business. Hey, David, you can call me back.

I was on a turn. I mean, you know, it's just a constant, but yeah, now's a fine time. I was on a turn. I mean, you know, it's just a constant, but... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, now's a fine time. I'm sorry for chasing you down. Sorry for chasing you down. No, no, no, you got to.

Yeah. Diane Dirtzis at her home in Birmingham. Diane is an abortion clinic owner and owns the clinic in Mississippi known as the Pink House, the only clinic in the state. I have been so out of line. I have cussed at people.

I've been horrible. That's about it. I mean, even for, actually it's been predominantly at the press, but, you know, because of course everyone wants the story and they think they should have access to the patients. What do you mean I can't talk to the patients? Which way? What the fuck is wrong with you?

I mean, just God. You know, they really want to talk to you right now, right? I know. It's crazy. But, you know, it's, you know what? It is what it is. I hope that this anger continues, but I'm not, you know, I'm afraid it doesn't. The Pink House had until July 6th.

After that, the last abortion clinic in Mississippi closed its doors. But Diane doesn't really sound to me like she's in mourning. She's laser-focused on what's to come and making preparations for new clinics. And we are readying Las Cruces to being ready to go. Virginia is very busy. The phone's picked up as soon as Kentucky went, West Virginia went, Tennessee's now a six-week ban. You just see that overnight, 11 states went that day. And it's just phenomenal to even try to figure out what that meant and what that means. women who were in the middle of the process, who had the two or three day waiting period

going on, and then find out that they were finished. They couldn't go back there. So I think we've seen a lot of people trying to figure out how to get the abortion completed. And, you know, luckily for them, there are still states standing that won't be standing long. So, you know, we're looking at right now just a bird's eye view, I think. It's hard to believe that we're in a democratic regime or whatever, that we've got a democratic president.

It's just all a little late, you know? And then planning-wise, you said you're opening in Las Cruces, and, I mean, is it possible that even enough infrastructure can be built in time to kind of accommodate a fraction of the people that are going to need the service? Absolutely not. No, absolutely not. When you think about what was happening with Texas, and that was 50,000 women had abortions there last year, and what happened when that state went, those women had five-week waiting periods trying to get seen. So you take that times 26, and I mean, women are in desperate trouble.

Desperate trouble. No one was prepared for this. You know, it's not prepared. Is it not designed basically to make people take law into their own hands? Like, is this designed to create this situation where people are going't wait. You know, I think the state of states can't wait for know, how much, how we're going to, you know, this is different. This isn't like Plow to Row because we have the abortion pill. You know, the abortion pill is not a panacea. And it has its own set of problems. You know, as providers, you know, we've tried to get that across, but no one wants to listen to that either. Because this group thinks they know everything.

Who's leading the, who's mobilizing, I mean, I think the reversal is a mobilizer in itself, a big one, but who's following who? Is it the same organizations on the sort of pro-choice side trying to get things going again, or is it like, what, is it just a sort of disorganized chaos of anger, or what? It's chaos. Yeah. It's chaos. Yeah. It's chaos. There's no one there.

And you have a clear division between youth and old people like me. There's so much division among ourselves. Just like the rest of the country. These people, I mean, they've been planning this for so many years. This is just the beginning. God help us. I mean, you know, I was watching those tapes yesterday, what happened at the insurrection.

I mean, it's all, all of this is so together. You know, it's all part and parcel of the same problem. The people that made this happen had such strategy and long-term thought. How are they not thinking that the social repercussions of this are going to affect them? Like, how do they not think that? They just turn a blind eye. But now we're looking at, wait till the IVF people, haven't heard about that yet, wait till they understand what this means. Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? So that is the only thing what I'm saying? So that is the only thing. I will tell you, that's what stopped the personhood bill in Jackson, in Mississippi, many years ago. Because we were definitely losing it until the white privilege

realized that this meant they weren't going to get a baby. And that's what stopped it. You know, money talks, privilege talks, and that is definitely going to be affected with this. I don't know why we're not talking about that yet, but not only going after birth control.

If it's a person at the moment that it's fertilized, IVF's over too. Diane is referring here to in vitro fertilization, the process of assisting with reproduction. One concern here would be, will couples be prohibited from destroying frozen embryos? And also, will physicians be prosecuted for embryo destruction if they don't implant successfully.

So my last thing for you is just take me through, say, someone who doesn't have the means to get out of their geography, get out of their location to get an abortion. What happens? Like, take me through the steps and somebody decides to have an abortion and they're in a red state. Right now she's the luckiest woman in the world. Because the minute that row went down, that money started pouring in.

For travel, for child care, for payment of abortions, services. There is a ton of money out there. And it's just continuing. It's not trickling in. It's actually flowing in. So they're going to have access. If they can believe the state, if they can, and there's two, and I mean, it's even apparent where it is, whether it's Twitter, whether it's whatever, abortion finder. There's organizations there that as soon as they make that phone call, someone's putting

them in touch with the funds, with where to go, you know, that whole thing. So now it's the best place that's ever been for a woman who needs funding to get it. Because people have put their money where their mouth is. You know what, David? That's why they're after. That's why they're trying to get all these people jailed, frightened to death, you know, that if you try to help these women, we're going to get you. But, I mean, the kindness and giving of services, money, whatever.

I mean, people who say to themselves, I will drive you. I mean, there's a pilot program that someone has set up where they do like the dogs that are trying to get to other states. Oh, yes. Now they've set, someone set that up to get women to other states rapidly. So, you know, that's very encouraging to me.

And I mean, these people have been working on this. You know, we have our own pink house fund and the donations are pouring in for travel expenses, for anything that will help a woman get to a place that can do a safe abortion.

It's time that people take a stand in this country. And this, it's, I mean, we're all going down together. Well, I want you to be safe, Diane. More power to you. But I want you to be safe doing this stuff. I'm safe. You know what? The big mouth is the one that always, there's a way to do, you know, that's a benefit, I think.

I've always thought that. There's safety way to do, you know, that's a benefit, I think. I've always thought that. There's safety in that. And is it horrible that you don't have friends or cohorts or allies? But I didn't have them before. Because these people don't care about the people that they've been serving. Yeah. Or the clinics that have done the work. You gotta love it, right?

Well, I think people on the show should be thankful that you've been there. I am too. It's been a gift, as we've talked about. I'm just lucky that I'm in a position, and I'm stupid enough, that I still have not learned to keep my mouth shut. And at this age, I don't think it's going to happen. It's all right. Okay, Diane. Well, thanks so much for your time. I don't want to keep you any happen. It's all right. Okay, Diane. Well, thanks so much for your time.

I don't want to keep you any longer. I know there's probably thousands... You keep in touch. I will keep in touch. And I'll also keep looking into the shootings of Canadian abortion doctors and who might have participated in them. The shift from American federal law to state law

caused by the reversal of Roe will create new battlegrounds, rhetoric, and, unfortunately, violence. History may repeat. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by me, David Ridgen. The series is also produced by Hadil Abdel-Nabi, Steph Kampf and Amanda Robb. Sound design by Evan Kelly. Emily Canal is our digital producer and our story editor is Chris Oak.

Our executive producer is Cecil Fernandes and the director of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani. If you're looking for more CBC Podcast investigations, consider listening to The Kill List. The Kill List investigates the death of human rights activist Karima Baluch in Toronto, but the investigation leads back to Pakistan, the country she had recently fled. Listen now on all platforms. And if you want to help new listeners discover the show, please rate and review wherever you listen. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.