Someone Knows Something - S8 E2: Wendy

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

Ten years after Angel Carlick was found dead in Whitehorse, her mother Wendy was also killed. Their cases are unconnected by events and perpetrators, but their stories are forever intertwined. The investigation into Angel’s whereabouts before she disappeared continues. Find the full-text transcript for this episode here: www.cbc.ca/1.6970507

Oh, hey there! I'm Andrew Fung and I want to tell you about my new series with ViaRail. Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard ViaRail's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze. No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences. For your next trip, do yourself a favor. Skip traffic and take Via Rail.

Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. This is a CBC Podcast. The following episode includes descriptions of domestic violence and refers to trauma related to residential schools. Please listen with care. Hey. Hi. Hey You can just stick that on top of there

Hello Hi, how are you? Nice to meet you You guys all coming downtown? I'm giving Alex and a few of his friends a ride into downtown Whitehorse. Alex is going to be meeting with prosecutors about his mother Wendy's case. The man who killed her will soon be sentenced.

So you're going down to the prosecutor's place? I don't want to talk about this, and I don't blame him. Like most murder victims' family members, he's been forced to completely rebuild his life, both around the loss and the unsolved case. But for Alex, it's two cases, his sister Angel's and his mother Wendy's. Angel's unsolved, Wendy's before the courts, in a system that has historically not served the indigenous community. I'm David Ridgen, and this is Someone Knows Something,

the Angel Carlic case, episode two, Wendy. Wendy, thanks for coming down. I appreciate it. Yes. It's been a long time since Angel went missing. Yes, eight years. In January 2016, CBC Yukon interviewed Wendy Karlik. Before she was killed, Wendy was in the same position that Alex is now, being a voice for Angel's story, something she fought for for years. Here, Wendy's chatting with Dave White in what will ultimately be her last ever CBC interview.

How have you coped over those last eight years? Oh, it comes and goes. But I always think about, I want to know what really happened and why. They said they're still on it, they're still looking into it, and that's all. I just stand there and listen to them. What can I say? Just keep looking at the cop station and walk by, wondering what are they doing in that building? Because I see them drive around and a lot. There's still reports going on as we speak. It's getting worse every month. Every month something happens.

They're getting younger. They're younger than my daughter. And still nothing is done about it. There is disagreement about the number of missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls in Canada, but their names and stories matter. In the Yukon, some of the names I found, Laura Frank, age 19,

16-year-old Miranda Shelley-Peter, Brandy Vitrequa, age 17, and 18-year-old Angel, murdered in 2007. Can I get your reaction to when you heard that there would be an inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women? I said, yes, right on. Yeah? I seen it on the news, on TV.

Right on, finally. In December 2015, Canada announced the creation of a national inquiry into missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls often referred to by the acronym MMIWG it would be the first of its kind and it sparked hope in victims family members the truth-gathering process began in Whitehorse in May 2017 with community public hearings families friends and advocates began sharing their stories of loss, trauma, and hope for change. How do you think an inquiry would help? Well, more resources, investigators, you know, reporters. And if you were asked to speak, what kinds of things would you like to tell them? I would ask them, why is it taking so long to investigate when they find a missing and murdered First Nation?

Why does it take so long to find them? And then to report it and find out what happened, that's what really bothers me. Wendy never got the chance to speak at the inquiry. Instead, her name appeared next to her daughter Angel's as a victim. The RCMP say two Indigenous women were found dead in this neighbourhood and believe they were killed. One of them was Wendy Carlock,

the same Wendy Carlock, says the community, who has been an advocate for missing and murdered Indigenous women. Wendy was killed on April 10th, 2017, along with her close friend Sarah McIntosh. Sarah had been in an on-and-off relationship with a man named Everett Chief, who was 43 at the time. On that day, the two met up with Wendy in downtown Whitehorse, and then the three of them went back to Sarah's, where alcohol was consumed. According to Chief, at one point, he and McIntosh got into an argument, and he was, quote, set off. Chief then allegedly blacked out, and later woke up to find Wendy and Sarah dead, whereupon he left the scene. Importantly, police say there is no connection between Wendy and Angel's murders. Hello, this is William.

Hey William, can you hear me okay? I hear you loud and clear. William Carlich is Wendy's brother and Angel's uncle. I'd like to speak to him about both of them and what he remembers. I've caught him in Whitehorse just before he heads out on a family trip. I had hoped to meet in person, but on the phone will have to do. You know, there's a journey to be made and journey to be celebrated. And for my sister and for my niece, when their lives are taken tragically,

people say tragically, but when somebody takes their life, that's the creator's number one law that says, you know, respect all life that he created. And when you take it so blatantly like that, there's a big price to pay. William believes that Whitehorse was bad for Wendy and the kids. They moved to the big city, and then after that, Wendy got caught up in the city life and the street people. And next thing she was into alcohol and things just kind of fell apart right from there.

To the point where the little angel situation came to be. I'm not saying it would have changed anything, but I just thought if there was some kind of a support. I look back on that, that could have happened too for my sister Wendy. You know, she could have been successful. She could have been at her own home like most women that want to have a home. And for little Angel, who knows, she could have been one of our leaders today. William has experienced a lot in his life. He lost Angel, he lost Wendy, and he lost his 21-year-old son who died in a car accident.

And before all that, William went through the horrors of Canada's residential school system. Six years old, and somebody just come to your house, like with the police, and just grab your six-year-old and say, OK, we're taking him and we're going to take him across the country and we're going to drop him off at an institution run by people that have no emotional connection to him and will never develop an emotional connection to him. And all we're going to do is make sure that he survives day to day there for

the next 10 months, and you're not going to see them. Wendy was also a survivor of residential school. My mom and dad had lost probably six of us to residential school, so they were all yanked out of their lives. So their lives became meaningless, and so how they fill that void was alcohol. So you can understand the emotional disconnect that you have with your child because you don't grow up with them anymore but also the emotional disconnect you have with your siblings because you're separated from them in that institution too.

Many of the Indigenous children who were forcibly taken to residential schools never returned. On the way out here, driving through northern Alberta, I came upon hundreds of orange flags that had been planted in the ground next to the highway. These were the kind of flags that would normally mark a pipeline or underground cable. But a look closer revealed that they were actually silent markers. Tiny plastic memorials that had been carefully placed there to stand for some of the hundreds of unmarked graves that have been discovered across the country associated with residential schools. Children who didn't survive the same government-funded church-led system that took William from his home. This is a kind of cruelty and pain that is not quickly or easily overcome, even over several generations. And you went through the system, you came back, like somehow you managed to thread the needle

and kind of come up with a better outlook that you were able to survive with, even though it was horrifying. Everybody has a job to do when they're putting this on Mother Earth, everybody. And your whole quest is to eventually get that job done. And that's why I'm still here talking to you, because I'm still working on getting that job done. Hey. You coming too?

Yeah. Just going to hang out with me for a little bit. Sure. Yeah. What's up? It wasn't what we were freaking planning. It's grey

and threatening rain. I've picked up Alex and Chris Dawson near the prosecutor's office, where Alex went to discuss the sentencing of Everett Chief, the man who killed his mother, Wendy. What'd he say? Pretty much said that my mother wasn't only worth seven years to that motherfucker. I'm not going to let this shit side.

Seven years for two counts of manslaughter? That's what they're saying? They gave him 14. Between both of them, it's fucking seven years. In the weeks after Alex's meeting with prosecutors, Everett Chief was eventually given a longer sentence. 18 years on two counts of manslaughter. I'm not sure if the extra years made anyone any happier. Police interviewed Chief for almost six hours in which he confirmed through tears that he was with Wendy and Sarah that night.

He later told his cellmate, who was a planted police officer, that he didn't remember killing Wendy and Sarah and that he didn't plan it. What's your name again, buddy? Dave? Dave, yep. So we'll get you checked in and call it a day and we can see you tomorrow sometime, the afternoon or something. I got an interview in the morning, so I got to spend some time with that. Sounds good.

I drop Alex off to get settled into a new hotel room and then head back to my own room for the night. Whitehorse has been taxing emotionally and physically for everyone and we're just getting started here. Big construction site here. It looks like a lot of new buildings. I hope this is the right place. Hi, I have an appointment with Chief Bill. We'll just take you in the links room over here. Oh great, thank you. I've arrived at my appointment with Chief Doris Bill, who represents one of the largest First Nations in Yukon, the Kwanlin Dun First Nation.

I walk into a beautiful new building of wood and steel, all in curves and colors of red, black, and blue. Chief Bill arrives, coffee in hand, in a matching top and pants, black with artful white brushstrokes, leather purse at her side, and glasses. Hi, I'm Chief Bill Hi, how are you? I'm too full, I don't shake. Oh, okay, thanks. She's a busy person, but she has personal as well as public reasons

to prioritize talking to me about Angel and Wendy. When Wendy passed, to think that both her and Angel were murdered. And Wendy's case is working its way through the courts right now, and Angel's case is outstanding. It's just such a tragic story of, you know, our lives as Indigenous people. It's just such a tragic, tragic past. And these two women, their lives mean something, you know? And I think we all want it to mean something.

I think that we want to honor them. And that's why Wendy's portrait sits on the Staples Building today. And Wendy's death hit us really hard. That's working its way through the courts. And we're watching the sentencing closely because there's a lot of concern about the lenient sentences that are going on in some of these cases. While Angel and Wendy were from the Kaskadena First Nation,

Chief Bill has shown interest in their cases through her office at Kwanlin Dunn. I was a journalist with CBC television for many, many years, but I actually interviewed Angel at one time for homelessness. She talked to me about her dreams, what she wanted to see in her future, and she talked about housing, her need for her own place. That's my connection to her. I did talk to her both on camera and off, and she was such a beautiful young woman. Chief Bill spoke to Angel about unhoused youth in Whitehorse in October of 2006 at the Bluefeather Youth Centre.

From all of the footage taken of Angel that day, this single clip is all that remains. After work, you have to find somewhere to stay, or you have to find somewhere to take, I don't know, take a shower or something, wash your clothes, because you don't like feeling gruffy. There's a lot of rumour out there, there's a lot of innuendo, and it is frustrating, you know, because somebody out there may know something and sometimes, you know, it doesn't matter how insignificant it may be it may turn into

something very significant so you know i try to urge people to come forward if they don't want to come to the rcmp they can come to our justice department here at kwanlin dunn and that's happened in the past when people don't feel comfortable coming forward to the RCMP, they come to us. And there are several cases throughout the Yukon, including in this community, that are unresolved. And it's slow moving for the families, and I know some of these cases take time. And it's been very frustrating for communities and for the families to just watch the years tick by and nothing comes of it. It's difficult to determine the numbers of missing or murdered Indigenous women and men in Canada. Research suggests that police use different methods to identify, or even who might be Indigenous.

Calls for a national tracking system for MMIWG cases have come out of inquiries and commissions, but currently, there is none. What do you think it's going to take to solve Angel's case? What do you think will be needed? I've thought about that many times, and I don't know if we should like you know I've even thought about offering should we be offering the rewards. I don't know maybe that's enough to motivate someone. I think the more awareness we create around this case I think the better. Chief Bill shifts and speaks directly to the person or persons who must hold the information we need about Angel's case.

I, you know, to whoever has done this or if people, you know, whoever has information, please know there's a family behind this person that really needs to have this case resolved. It's agony. It's agony for the families that are involved. Oh, hey there. I'm Andrew Fung, and I want to tell you about my new series with Via Rail.

Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard Via Rail's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze. No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy, and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences.

For your next trip, do yourself a favor, skip traffic and take Via Rail. Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. At Desjardins, we speak business. We'll see you next time. same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business. Check, check, check. Hello. Oh, hey.

Who was saying hello? Oh, hey. Lance said he was going to be here. I've arrived at Lance Burton's place of business. Lance helped run the Blue Feather youth organization that Angel worked for. Blue Feather helped un that Angel worked for. Bluefeather helped unhoused teenagers in Whitehorse, and at the time offered food, crafts, community activities, and other services. But this new space of Lance's now seems to be a sort of multimedia studio and clothing store.

Lori, I know, is anxious to hear what Lance has to say and ask some of her own questions. Hello. Sorry, I'm a bit late. There you are. How are you? I think I'm all right. I'm David, nice to meet you. David, nice to meet you as well. Hi. Hi. This is Laurie Strand. I'm also Eileen Will's granddaughter. Oh my gosh, yes, that's how I know. Lance looks like he just stepped out of 1960s San Francisco.

Leather-brimmed hat with an appearance of laid-back quietude. The upstairs, like the downstairs of this building, is empty of people, but it is filled with new sound studios and film equipment. My name's Lance Burton. I'm from Whitehorse, Yukon. I arrived in the Yukon when I was about 7 years old. So 73, I'm not very good at math,

but I'm almost here 50 years. Lance used to run the center with Vicki Durant, but now the two have gone their separate ways. I have yet to speak to Vicki, but will be doing so soon, I hope. Downstairs and upstairs, yeah. Upstairs we do training for video and podcasting like you're doing. So we've got three recording studios here. So we kind of work with all that kind of stuff.

While I want to get a sense of what Lance does do here, I'm most interested in what he remembers about Angel. Well, she was our resident cook, so she cooked there. And she also joined in on some other programs, mainly our mural programs. That's how we were introduced to Angel. Because she was cooking and we had people coming over for our dinner program, she was great to socialize with the people she was serving food for. When you saw Angel last, was it before, like, just before her graduation, like her last shift, would you have seen her?

And did she say, like, oh, I'll see you on, like, whatever day? I couldn't recall, but I know that she was pretty consistent at work. So I would say that I would have seen her. And if the weekend was happening, you know, I don't really pay attention to what their plans are or anything like that. But I can only imagine during that time, it's graduation, and it's a great celebration for kids. And after grad is always an important event.

Did Angel have access to Blue Feather? Did she have a way to get in and out? Did she have her own key? No, nobody did. Okay. I wonder how many people Angel would have met during a regular shift, and were they all locals? I'd like to speak to someone closer to Angel's age at the time,

a colleague or friend from the centre. So we ask Lance if anyone comes to mind. Brittany, your cousin. a colleague or friend from the centre. So we ask Lance if anyone comes to mind. Brittany, your cousin. Which Brittany? She was at the youth centre back then too, during that time. I forget, just give me a second. Yeah, so something we've got to figure out. She knew Angel very well, your cousin.

Oh, I know which Brittany you're talking about. Okay. Okay, yeah. My name's Brittany Johnson. I'm from Champaign. I knew Angel. I spent a lot of time with her at Blue Feather Youth Center and Youth of Today Society. We did art, paintings, we did a lot of cooking and taking care of our fellow youth. Calm, quiet, she always had a hug and a smile. Always. What do you remember about the last time you saw Angel?

Vicky's got pictures of it somewhere. We were in her office at the youth center and we were upstairs in the office like we're not allowed to be but we're special so we were always up there. My understanding is that Vicki who was one of Angel's supervisors at the center was a major advocate of Angel's while she was alive and also someone who pushed for justice for her after her murder. But tracking Vicki down has been difficult. With Lori's help, I have left messages around town for her and wait for her to call back. There's a bunch of youth that were, you know, displaced with intergenerational trauma and not knowing that then. And having Vicki there and her support to help us youth,

I couldn't go to Blue Feather Youth Centre anymore after. Yeah. Where did people go after? There wasn't really anywhere to go. We just kind of went to the streets. I wonder if on the streets, Brittany remembers how Angel got around. Did you ever see her on a bicycle? I did.

Okay. All the time. The only thing I remember about it is that it was bigger than what she should have been riding. Right? Like, you know how your toes are supposed to touch the ground or your feet flatly? Yeah. Did you talk to anybody who had seen her that day as well after you saw her?

There was numerous people that were like, I just seen her, we just hugged, you know? When you're a youth on the streets, you see everybody often. You see each other, there's connections. And when you don't see each other for a couple days or a day, it stands out. Did you hear anything afterwards about what might have happened to Angel? I do remember the day before,

or the day of the after-grad party and whatnot, people talking about it, saying that they weren't sure if they wanted to go that far, too, because it was kind of remote. These parties have been mentioned to me before, including a big annual one at a place called Chadburn Lake that I'll be looking into. Lori asks Brittany about the common practice of hitching rides for short distances home or back into downtown. Was there somebody that you guys would say avoid this person or avoid that vehicle?

Mm-hmm. There was a couple vehicles that were pretty regular. I don't know if they were definitely older gentlemen. White, yeah. Older Caucasian gentlemen, yeah. It's the same today. Did you ever hear anything that sounded credible to you about what might have happened to Angel? I haven't heard anything. But like with most cases of missing and murdered indigenous women,

it's usually somebody they know. And that really, you know, this is a small town. Someone knows for sure. And I will be following up on all of the local tips I receive I know this is really really hard so thank you for coming I appreciate you You're welcome

Thank you very much You're welcome You're just amazing I love you so much I love you so much. I love you too, Laurie. The next day, Laurie and I make a quick stop by Krista Dawson's house, Alex's girlfriend. I've been driving around Whitehorse with Laurie, getting to know the community, and talking to anyone who is willing, and I've found that most people are. There is a deep love for Angel

and her family here. Are you alright? Yeah. Rambo? Hi Rambo. Smell me up. It's a recording thing. It just records audio.

It's like a tape recorder. Tape recorder, yeah. Working on a case of angel garlic. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Hi, I'm Lori Lou. I'm Evan. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you, yeah. Are you documenting something? What? Angel Carlex case from 2007. Probably just a BB back then. Krista's brother Phil is changing a truck tire out on the street. He's working very quickly with power tools, but he looks up when he hears Angel's name.

She's a good friend of mine. She's called Philly. Philly? You say Angel was a good friend of yours? Yeah, I don't know. I'll take care of her. I'll fix her bike over there. Phil says that Angel used to call him Philly, and that he would fix her bike all the time. Phil says that Angel used to call him Philly, and that he would fix her bike all the time. Oh yeah? It's okay, a BMX right here. A BMX?

Yeah. She had a BMX bike? What color was it, do you remember? No, I don't remember. was it do you remember i've previously found references to a bicycle that angel used to own and rumors that it had been found somewhere after she went missing potentially a very important element in her timeline i heard that they found her bike part locked to something for a few weeks yeah yeah she's leaving downtown did she drive it back and forth to the village and back

everywhere yeah is that how she'd get around mostly yeah yeah yeah did you ever see her taking a ride with anybody no no thank you thanks a lot man I know you're busy. Yes, always a busy man. The openness and willingness to share is lovely here, but delving into and talking about murder, especially in your own family, takes a toll. Shortly after this meeting with Krista's brother, I meet with Alex, and he reveals that he's had enough.

Laurie and I offer to get him back to Good Hope Lake, and eventually, he agrees. How are you feeling? Okay, tired. Can I get you anything? No. Okay. The next morning, we pick up Alex at his hotel and set out. Good Hope Lake is just about six hours away by car,

but we'll have northern daylight to spare. Alex, exhausted, sleeps almost the whole way, and Laurie and I chat about the case. Yeah, I mean, for me, knowing the story of what happened is a big part of trying to help people through it. It would help. But it also, all these years that have gone by, we all have really great days, really crappy days, mediocre days. And this person or persons that murdered her, that killed her, whether it be by accident or on purpose,

when they go through their days, do they think about her? Do they wonder what could have happened to her life? Like where she would have been? Or let's say they have an amazing day. We all have those days where you're getting ready to go to bed and you're like, wow, I had a really great day. Today was fantastic. Does a murderer have those kinds of moments? Knowing that they took all of those days away from someone. On purpose or by accident. And do they feel guilt after? Ever?

I think a lot of times people can people do change after murdering somebody. I think their lives If they have a conscience. If they have a conscience. If they have a conscience. We've driven south into British Columbia now, far beyond cell phone range, passing through a patchwork of bog and fen and the charred remains of massive historic burns. Mountains far in the distance signal our destination and seem to somehow move further away until suddenly we are upon them.

Alex warns of sheep on the road, the wild mountain kind of sheep, but unfortunately we don't see any. We pass the small community where he lives, nestled at the base of an impossibly gorgeous mountain, and keep on driving. There's one more destination before the end of today's trip. Rain stopped just as we got here? The graveyard where Angel, her mother Wendy, and grandmother all rest beside each other. I follow Alex as he makes his way towards some headstones. On the right,

a heart-shaped piece with a large granite angel hugging the side marks Angel's spot. Wendy's features a beautiful wooden carving. All three have weathered plastic flowers, photos, and memorabilia laid out on the ground in front of them. This is your grandma? Mm-hmm. That's Wendy over here? Yeah. That's beautiful.

I'll keep it for carving. I forgot his name. Went to residential school with my mom. The fellow who did the carving? Mm-hmm. It was my Uncle William's idea for that. That's beautiful. I was gonna get the same one as Angel's but I don't know.

You good? Yep. Good. Doing investigation. I'm happy that you were able to help out. I want to thank you for coming. When I find out stuff that's new, I'll let you know. Yep. We leave the graves behind and drop Alex at home. A small cabin with a Canadian flag used as a curtain. He waves and walks inside. Back up where the road enters the Yukon, Laurie and I try to gather ourselves again. It's so sad and angry and all the depths of emotions in between those things, you know, they come in waves.

Like, I still get angry sometimes, or I get uncontrollable sadness when you think of Angel. And then, you know, you have Wendy in there, too, because she left not knowing. I mean, they're together now, but still. I just hope Wendy knows that Alex is still continuing the fight the best way he knows how and that he does have family around him that's supporting him. Like I don't speak for the family but I still love Angel and Alex wholeheartedly with every fiber. And I'll always try to be there to support him and love him the best way I know how,

even if sometimes it has to be at a distance. Like our drive today was, it was hard leaving him there. It was. There's much more investigation waiting back in Whitehorse, and I will keep in touch with Alex about it. Laurie and I are ready to get back and focus once again on Angel. I do think that the key really is in where she was found. I think that gives the most information so far of anything that I've seen.

Other than what we might hear from people that saw her last and knew who she was with last, I think the most information comes from her remains being found and where they were found and how they were found. I think somebody put her there. Yeah. I've always felt that way. I like to say dropped off just because it doesn't paint such a violent end for me. There was no need or reason or rhyme for them to be out that way.

It's just too far for a bunch of youth to go partying there when they're used to being at the 420 park at the end of the street there or by the river or even by that big rock thing even chad burns a bit far but you know it was a special grad thing that's where all the high school kids would meet so that's why i think that she was dropped off there. Well, you'll find out more if you go with me, but I think you'll finally get some answers on that. Okay.

I think knowing the truth would probably be easier than letting my mind wander. For Laurie, wandering through the details of Angel's case has created its own kind of obsession. For her, a circular trail around the same fundamental question. What happened? The brain gets used to the path and it's hard to break free, but to me, personal justice and healing is as important as solving a case. And direct confrontation with the darkest of facts can help break the cycle, I believe.

Going to the people and the places and seeing. And Laurie agrees, that's what we're going to do and keep doing until we find the answers. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by me, David Ridgen. The series is also produced by Hadil Ab Abdel-Nabi and Zaina Salem. Sound design by Evan Kelly.

Natalia Ferguson is our transcriber. Emily Connell is our digital producer. Chris Oak is our story editor. Our executive producer is Cecil Fernandez. And the director of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani. Special thanks to CBC Yukon for use of their 2016 radio interview with Wendy Carlic. If you want to help new listeners discover the show, please rate and review wherever you listen. You can hear next week's episode now by searching for the CBC Podcasts channel on YouTube, or you can hear all seven episodes today by subscribing to the CBC True Crime Premium channel on Apple Podcasts, where you can binge the full season

ad-free. Just click on the link in the show description. If you're looking for another investigative series to listen to, check out Uncover from CBC Podcasts. Find Uncover on the CBC Listen app or wherever you get your podcasts. For more CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.