Someone Knows Something - S8 E3: The Saddest Song in the World

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

In November 2007, Angel Carlick’s remains were found in a remote area near Whitehorse. How did she get there? Was Angel killed at this location, or was she moved? Find the full-text transcript for this episode here: www.cbc.ca/1.6970507

Oh, hey there! I'm Andrew Fung and I want to tell you about my new series with ViaRail. Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard ViaRail's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze. No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences. For your next trip, do yourself a favour. Skip traffic and take Via Rail.

Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. This is a CBC Podcast. A big day planned and underway. My first face-to-face with police, and a trip to Pilot Mountain later. But first, Lori and I stop in at Angel's ex-boyfriend Chris Dawson's place to ask a few clarifying questions. Hey! Surprise! Hey! Just wanted to chat with you if you had two seconds.

Alright, do you want to come up here? Yeah, come on up. Chris joins us at the bottom of a set of stairs. He may have just woken up, but seems okay for the chat. I want to see if there's any more details I can get about the last time he says he saw Angel. Do you remember what she was wearing? Not really, I don't. She was just wearing jeans and sweater, I think. And did you tell the police the same story? Do you remember telling them the same thing over and over again when they were asking you? Yeah. And you said they polygraphed you, right? Four times. Yeah, yeah,

yeah. So Chris, when police were interviewing you, did you get the idea that they thought you might have been a suspect in the thing? Yeah. Yeah. Because I think... I got polygraphed so many times. Yeah. Did you feel that people treated you different? Uh, they're all skeptical about me. I know I was a bit abrasive, but I'm always a bit abrasive. I hope you know I didn't mean no judgment. I just, my own emotions. Yeah. It's okay, I understand. Yeah, it wasn't very good though. Rough times.

Did you guys ever go out of town? Like out of city limits? Oh, not that I know of, no. Like to party or hang out? No. Pilot Mountain for sure no, right? Yeah. Are there times that you think about her more?

Oh, I think about her every day. Me too. I'm David Ridgen, and this is Someone Knows Something, Season 8, The Angel Carlic Case, Episode 3, The Saddest Song in the world. Hey Mike, it's going well, nice to meet you. Yeah, same.

Nice to see you face to face. I've met with RCMP Corporal Mike Simpson outside of the RCMP HQ in downtown Whitehorse. I've been talking on the phone to Simpson since around late 2020 about the murder of Angel Carlic. Maybe hearing details of the police investigation into her case will help me answer some of my questions. I thought you were going to be a little younger myself. Oh, well.

In his 50s, fit and clean-shaven, with short grey hair, Simpson projects a sense of quiet care about Angel's case, though he's only been assigned to it for about two years. So I had Alex and he had two of his friends. One was Chris Dawson. Okay. So he said he was polygraphed. He was polygraphed, multiple, I believe. You guys are satisfied that he was...

Yeah, well, I think everyone remains a suspect completely, but, yeah, he's not a person of interest to me anyways, so... Yeah. Yeah. So Angel's ex-boyfriend Chris Dawson is no longer front and centre for Corporal Simpson. I'm liking his openness to sharing so far. In the past, RCMP were key to colonial efforts in the brutal treatment of Indigenous people.

RCMP investigations of Indigenous cases in particular have been shown to lack in accountability, transparency, community consultation. I'm not sure what exactly Simpson has been doing on Angel's case, but I am hoping that working with him will lead to somewhere productive. Yeah, just follow me and the interview room, I'll put these in the back. Simpson leads me down a few nondescript hallways past racks of gear stuffed into blue canvas bags to a back corridor of interview rooms.

Inside one of them, a couple of basic couches and a low table. Tell me what you know about Angel's timeline. Let's start with that. In the month of May 2007, Angel was in the midst of graduating high school. And I think she had already gone to Native graduation ceremonies, and then about a weekend she had gone to, I think, a barbecue up in Kwame Lendon First Nations. So from there she leaves, actually it was May 26th, and then she leaves there going headed downtown, and she sees numerous people along Main Street on May 26th.

I'm hoping to find people in the community who might remember these parties or barbecues. What time of day was that? It was kind of in the evening. Okay. According to RCMP, Alex told them at the time that he remembered seeing Angel at the 420 Park sometime between 6pm and 7pm. This aligns with what I have heard from Alex. And Chris Dawson's statement to the police at the time says he last saw Angel at the 420 Park around 7pm on May 26th. One fragment of information that hasn't gone anywhere yet but that I will put out there in hopes it might,

police suggest that Angel may have had a camera with her on the day she disappeared. A camera that Alex, when I asked him, says he doesn't remember anything about, and one police have never seen. Last sighting, sort of later evening, not super late. I don't think it went into the 27th or anything like that. Of course, daylight, it's extended up here. And she's kind of last seen with two unknown, whiter, just what was quoted, whiter-looking younger males.

Angel was allegedly seen sometime around 9pm on May 26, 2007, walking away from Main Street near a place known locally as the Pyramids with these two whiter-looking males. The Pyramids are actually part of a newer office building just a block from LePage Park. The 420 Park, LePage Park and the Pyramids are all a short walk from each other. Probably the whole circuit could be done in 15 minutes, and it appears that Angel was circulating in this area when she disappeared. I make it known to Corporal Simpson that I would

like to speak to the eyewitness who provided this information about the two men as it may be crucial. Simpson says he will ask the witness and adds that police were never able to determine if this encounter occurred just before Angel disappeared. And then for me, after May 26th, kind of any sightings of her really try to drop off. Beyond that, I can't find any sort of verified sightings after that time. So for me, May 26 seems to be sort of the last known sighting of Angel.

And then about a week later, she was reported missing because her mother was also worried. And they began a missing person investigation at that time. Simpson says that Angel was first reported missing to police on May 31st but that another police officer had claimed to have seen her the day before that on the 30th so the investigation seems to have concluded there and then. The timing and the content of this alleged sighting

of Angel on May 30th is unclear. I don't know if this police officer saw Angel or why he claims to have done so at that timing, but this alleged sighting affected the start of the investigation at a crucial time. Days pass, then on June 5th, Angel is again reported missing, and Simpson says the investigation reopens. Police also received multiple tips of sightings of Angel in Western Canada, which Simpson says were followed up. And he says that on June 11th, the investigation continued with a major case management approach. Um, you know, I can't speak totally for the investigators. Essentially, they started with the people that had known her,

I mean, relationships with her, you know, family members, which is kind of the process of how you do these things. And then they worked out where it's continued to be. But with this investigation, just my perception, and continue to be my sort of limitations is that we're just missing what I call those pieces of evidence that kind of are your markers, kind of point you, really strongly start leading you beyond people of interest, more into suspects. What about Colin Cerenko's case? Because I've heard that there's a connection Angel allegedly saw. Colin getting beaten was one of the rumors, and therefore that was a week before the timing of Colin's beating to death

at the riverside, right? That's where he was killed. Colin Cerenko was brutally murdered along the bank of the Yukon River on May 24, 2007, within days before Angel was last seen. Alex says that he was approached by someone who told him that Angel had witnessed the deadly beating, suggesting that that's why she went missing. What have you found about Colin Cerenko?

I'm aware of those rumors and continue to hear them. There is nothing, both investigators in the past and myself, to suggest there's any connection there. And I believe they did have someone of strong interest in that matter, just not to speak for the investigators there, but they were just never able to lay a charge there. But there was no connection of Angel Carlic to that case that we see at this time and in the past. But yet the Serenko case is still unprosecuted or unsolved.

Unprosecuted, yes. Unprosecuted. Yes. And yes, I think it may remain that way for various reasons. Not much has been revealed by police to anyone, including family members over the years, about where and how Angel's remains were found. Any revelations here, I believe, could be potentially crucial in helping to find who killed her. I asked Corporal Simpson to start from the beginning of what happened on November 9th, 2007, the day

Angel was found, just over four months after she disappeared from downtown Whitehorse. There was an individual, he was walking his dog, a community member in a suburb, I guess is the best way to say it, it's about Pilot Mountain subdivision, which is about 20 minutes out of town. And the dog didn't come back to him. And when he called him, he kind of noticed the dog was interested in something. And then when he went to have a closer look, he realized he should call police. And then the police attended RCMP. And once we're short the remains, later verified to be of Angel Carlic. There wasn't a lot found, unfortunately, and then that turned into a homicide investigation or suspicious death investigation, which continues to this day.

So that's really essentially sort of the crux of it. Is the actual classification homicide or suspicious death? I say, yeah, that's a good question. I say more homicide. We don't know the cons of death, but certainly something that demands further attention, right? It's just we don't have those pieces of information about what happened and how she died. I would tend to suspect that however she passed away occurred elsewhere,

from where her remains were found. I'd like to see the location where Angel was found as soon as possible. Was she concealed, and how, And was any relevant DNA found? Police calling Angel's case both one of suspicious death and homicide seems an equivocation that means the same thing. But the details matter. The facts matter. So is that Pilot Mountain right there? Yeah, yes, I would say it is. Feels definitely apart from Whitehorse.

Police have never shown anyone where Angel was found before, but Corporal Simpson agrees to take me out to Pilot Mountain. There's more houses here now than back then, but a lot of it remains. Yeah, it's pretty much the same. The northern sun hitting my face makes me wonder about the light that would have been available at the end of May when Angel disappeared. Would it have ever gotten dark? Yeah, it was quite close to summer solstice. There is a little bit of darkness, but...

Some people would say it's more like dusky, sort of. So you're saying that the daylight of the time, sort of at the darkest point, would be dark for maximum two hours, would we say? Seems a very short window indeed for any undertaking involving concealing a body in the open without being seen. But then I don't yet know the layout of where we're going. We turn off the main highway about 25 minutes out of downtown Whitehorse,

and then a short time later onto Springer Road, which forms the backbone of the Pilot Mountain subdivision. There we go, Pilot Mountain subdivision, yeah. Along this road, I can see some driveway entrances to homes that nestle unseen on larger acreages, and, crossing the road ahead, some power lines. Corporal Simpson soon pulls off and stops on a patch of sand underneath them. So we are going to hike up there. Okay. On either side of us, gigantic wooden towers loom and march off in the distance for many kilometers along a 30 meter wide swath that's been cut

through thick spruce and pine. The cut and these electrical towers were made about 35 years ago to service the area and other remote communities further up and down the Alaska and Klondike highways. Recent rains have soaked the rough access path that runs underneath it all. It's going to be a bit muddy here. So we're going to go up about a kilometer, and then we're going to go into the woods for a little bit. We start walking past colorful stands of fireweed along the path and delicate blooms of calypso

fairy slipper orchids in the cleared spaces around the towers. The vibrance of bees and dragonflies and butterflies everywhere. An infusion of pine and reindeer moss in the air. But how did Angel come to be here? And was this house here, do you know? I think it was, yes. There's just a few houses, and even fewer are visible through the trees on either side of us. At the time of Angel's disappearance in 2007, it's estimated there were about 50 single-family homes in the subdivision.

Not a lot of physical change, despite the few new places that have been built here since then. There's some interesting orchids up in this area. Oh, okay, right. I just try to think of all the kinds of people that would have been here 10 years before kind of thing, and what were they here for? Maybe nature people taking pictures. Yeah.

Maybe hikers. People putting this line in, gathering wood. I noticed that the few properties I can see seem to have winding backyard trails through the trees that lead out to this cut, all posted with no trespassing signs. Some of these dwellings were here in 2007, and I remember seeing a couple of these roofs in an aerial police photo taken on November 10, 2007,

the day after Angel was found. In that photo I can also see a dusting of snow on the ground and police and forensic vehicles parked in a neat row under the power lines. Everything else obscured by the trees. Okay, and you guys canvassed all these houses? We did, yeah. And nobody saw anything? Nothing really. There was a few sort of things. You know, when people talk about a truck. A tan-coloured 1970 or 1980 Chevrolet truck was seen on the access road near the location of Angel's remains

in the weeks after Angel disappeared, but before her remains were found. Simpson tells me the witness thought they saw three people inside, and at least one of them was indigenous. He also tells me that they stuck in the witness's mind, as they felt intimidated looking at them. Beyond that, the tip betrayed no other information, and nailing down a specific date of this sighting,

between the time Angel disappeared and six months later when she was found is difficult. Well, I might try to knock on a couple of these doors and see what people say. Whoa. Yeah, like I said, it's pretty muddy here. How many times have you been up here? About six. Yeah.

Do you find something new each time or think of different things each time? Are you surprised about anything? Yeah, it kind of brings... That's a good question. Yeah, it brings things into kind of focus. Did you map out after the discovery of Angel's Remains, was it ever mapped out if anybody suddenly left Pilot Mountain? Yeah, some follow-up.

People do move around here. But I don't know if they specifically attract everyone. I know there was movement here. Even the individual that called us, the dog walker, he's of course since moved. So we are here. After about 30 minutes of walking in from the main road, Simpson has stopped at a rough entrance to a grassy trail off the power cut. It's noticeably darker down the trail, even in daytime, and the spruces seem to lean in from both sides as it winds off into the woods. But this entry seems big enough for a vehicle to pull in, the first one I've seen wide enough along our route. It's also just after where all the private property lines end.

Simpson has gone silent, and I follow him in. A few hundred feet, and the trail peters out, and an area that I see at some point in the past must have been cut, probably for firewood. Well, you can see a tree cut down here with a saw. I can see the remains of a scattering of neatly sawn stumps cut long enough ago that lichens have begun to grow on the flat parts. Interestingly, there are no new cuts. So at some point, the woodcutting stopped here. Did you look into the wood gathering theory or angle? Did you look at who used to be up here wood gathering? They did at the time. Yeah, you know, I know, I'm speaking of one of the previous investigators, they did look at the angle, but again, I think, you know, no specific names were kind of mentioned. Simpson beckons as he turns off into the woods off-trail, and I carefully follow for a short

while. Then, he stops again. Yeah, so this is the area. That area right there. The hair on my neck stands up as Angel's presence moves around me. She was here. This is where Angel was brought. She could not have come here on her own. Oh, hey there! I'm Andrew Fung and I want to tell you about my new series with Via Rail. Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard Via Rail's new fleet of trains.

My journey was a breeze. No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy, and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences. For your next trip, do yourself a favor. Skip traffic and take Via Rail. Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada.

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Corporal Simpson and I are standing in another area with a few of the cut stumps, same vintage lichen. Simpson has gestured to a pile of logs over a depression in the ground, the remains of a deep hole. The logs were placed by police, Simpson says, to keep people from falling in. This was no shallow grave. So how deep was the hole estimated to have been dug? Yeah, I think four feet, six feet, if I recall. It was what I would define a grave.

Any sort of positioning you could get? Was she positioned in any way that you could discern? I know it wasn't a case where you had full remains so that you could kind of tell but like I said numerous things were located around this area Articles of clothing and things? Some articles of clothing some other items, remains of Angel were located around this area. Was there identification found here? Wallet, money?

Oh, no. The hiker's dog had found Angel after she had been dug out of this hole, likely by a larger mammal such as wolves or a bear. The few remains of Angel were found scattered in the hole and throughout the area. Simpson says what was found showed forensic evidence of marks made by whatever dug her out of the ground, but no evidence of how Angel died. How long would it have taken someone to dig this grave unnoticed?

I think it must have taken a while. Lots of effort. Yeah, there was effort. I think you can say that. Whoever did this didn't expect she would ever be found again. That is my belief as well. Speaking as an investigator, no disrespect, but it always struck me as this sort of a,

like a good place, like it's kind of open here, yet there's trees around you, right? This cover. You're not very far, of course, from the path that we just walked up. So digging to four to six feet in this soil, what's the minimum amount of time you think it would take to if a one person was digging this hole? Yeah it's hard to say but definitely not minutes. It would probably be two hours if not more. Again try to put yourself sort of in their shoes. One of the things that would slow me down is I would probably be

watching, so that might slow me down, I don't know. Just seeing if, you know, there was anyone around, which we haven't seen anyone here, but it would take some time. Yeah, it's not, I think anyone who's dug a hole would probably appreciate that it takes some effort. But quite possibly in that situation you have adrenaline flowing, I would imagine. Yeah, I think so. In this moment, it strikes me that Corporal Simpson and I are talking about the same thing without saying it.

We're talking about more than one person being involved. The effort to get in here. The effort in the digging. The being careful. So you think guys, eh? You think men? Um, more than one, yes. Men and more than one. And when there's two, you know, the story goes, the silence is harder to keep. Is your inkling that the people are still alive, or persons? Um, I do think yes, or at least some. to keep. Is your inkling that the people are still alive? Or persons?

I do think yes. Or at least some. Bringing Angel to this location tells us much about the perpetrator or perpetrators. She was brought here for a reason. Not to the Yukon River that runs through Whitehorse. Not to a roadside or the woods just

outside of Whitehorse, but here. I asked Simpson what the location might tell him about the profile of the person or people who did this to Angel. I think it's someone who was able to slow things down and kind of think about what happened and what they needed to do to sort of get out of that situation. You know, you said it, I think, earlier while walking up, I think inclination in a lot of cases would just kind of leave the deceased and run, which we've had many cases that I've worked on like that. But this, you know, requires some planning, some preparation, where to go and then how to get there, how to conceal the deceased so they're not seen.

To get them here, obviously, there's no specific path that leads, no road that leads right here. It's not far away. So they had some ability to really kind of think about what they wanted to do and how they wanted to do it, right? This strikes me as someone who's able to slow things down, despite, I would imagine, you know, kind of being in a stressful situation. But this is unusual, you know, in the sense that she was placed here. That is not as common as you think. This specific spot, you're thinking about why here. Well, the estimation must be that they've been here before.

And you can't randomly find this spot, I don't think. I think the percentages are pretty high on that assumption. Yes. I'm certain that this location has more secrets to divulge, and I'll be back. But for now, I make my way out of the woods with Corporal Simpson to begin our walk back to the car. On the way out, I suggest to Simpson the notion of a reward fund that Kwanlin Dunn Chief Doris Bill mentioned, and he felt that while RCMP do not normally work with rewards, that in this case, it could be worthwhile. And I also suggest that Simpson use a cadaver dog that he is bringing up to the Yukon for another case to search through these woods as well, and he said he would. Any additional remains or clothing that could be found

could offer important clues such as hair or fiber information, or even towards manner of death. As we near the car, I try to encapsulate something about my suspicions, and I think his, regarding the perpetrator or perpetrators. So you, we talked about this, I just want to verify, like I'm going to be pointing at the Pilot Mountain area and saying high percentage chance the person's around here somewhere. Do you think that's an accurate statement to make? Yes, they had been at one point.

They had been here or may still be. However you want to phrase it. They definitely knew this area. I think the stretch would say they may have lived here at one point, but... Or had a connection. Yeah. So... Continue on Springer Road for 800 meters. So I'm here, and if you don't want at any time to continue, let's just turn around. Okay.

There's no reason that we have to force you or force yourself or force ourselves through this. In 400 meters, you will arrive at your destination. It's a good kilometer walk. I can do it. I can do it for Angel. It's the next day. In all of my work in Unsolved Murder, I have been a means of travel into the dark places for friends and family of victims. Midnight drives to nameless roads, delicate forays through unknown forests,

revisiting a neighborhood that has long forgotten the horror that it once hid. It's overwhelming for me to dwell on it all, overthink, and better dealt with by continuing to move forward. And I'm doing that now with Laurie Strand, who says this is something she must do, and so I do it with her. Here we are. This is the power cut. We're going that way. That way?

Yep. Okay. I'm just going to say a quick prayer over here by myself. I didn't realize I would act like this. Did you guys both walk up this way or did you guys drive? Yes, we walked up here. Okay. Yes. We could drive all the way down but I think the walk-in was a little more memorial.

Part of the kind of preparation journey. The morning sun is nice, though. You all right? Yeah. Okay. When she was missing, my mom and I would always pray that we'd find her before the snow fell. So the snow would fall, then she'd be hidden for another season. I have a little bit of a mental block of that day. I was doing dishes with my mom, and then the RCMP called on my cell phone and

she said that they found Angel. And I remember telling them, I'm on my way into Whitehorse and it was a really bad snowstorm and my parents said, no, we'll go in the morning. And yeah, and yeah the rest of it's kind of a blur I had to take Ativan back then I was having anxiety attacks after she went missing yeah I don't know what those are like

I used to get panic attacks all the time for no real particular reason apparently getting closer I used to get panic attacks all the time for no real particular reason apparently. Getting closer. Okay. Lori tells me she wants to cleanse the site with a ceremony, one where she will sing a song. Well, song is medicine, depending on how you sing it. And red was her color of calling.

And so when you wear red, you're protected by your ancestors. It's a signal of needing guidance. So I've got my red hair tie for my head. That's nice. I used to do a lot of work in Mississippi and I still do and I talked to one of the big Mississippi bluesmen down there, Willie King, who's actually passed now and I said why do people sing the blues and he said you sing the blues to get the blues off you. Okay. So you sing mournful to remove mournful

makes sense to me it does sing the blues to get the blues off you that's what he said we're here oh she was in there yeah so this is the trail that leads down to the wood cutting area. So a car could pull in here and not be seen. Gonna put some tobacco down. Do you want to go first or do you want me to go? Let's go to the woodcut spot first. Okay. I show Lori the stumps and we ruminate that maybe the same group or family used to come here to cut wood. Maybe even Christmas trees.

That maybe someone remembers this spot from those times as remote, as a place to bring Angel. And you can see the lichen that's on it, so it's been there for a while. You can see this opening, and then the trail kind of roughly continues continues but let's go up here a bit there's a specific tree that I'm looking for here I don't want to get lost on the trail here yep you ready are you okay I'm good. Just follow me then. You see this diagonal branch here on the ground? That's the tree I'm looking for.

And if we come up here, if you stand right here and look this way, those trees are right on top of where she was. Those ones? Yep, right there. The ground is still indented. If you come up, you can see. Which way was her head? I don't know.

So sort of where the shovel marks look like they've started here. It's one, two, three. Six and a half by three of my steps. She wasn't very tall and she wasn't a very big woman. And the officer said that the hole was four to six feet deep. It's deeper than the grave that I was expecting to see.

The bear found her. Grandfather bear. It's just so... You know, if you didn't know, you'd think it was almost a pretty location. Lori moves further toward the site where Angel was found and I let her go, not wanting to crowd her process with my presence.

My ancestors just sat with me and protected this area. Evil is no longer welcome. And thanks, I give more tobacco. North, south, east and west all four guardian corners please watch over me. My family will come back and do a better cleansing. I'm gonna sing a song that can't be recorded.

Okay, I've given it. It is the saddest song I've ever heard, but one through Lori that has dispelled the heaviness, taken the blues off this place as I've learned again today that a human voice can do. And I can see how pretty this location really is, despite what was done. Here, where I think more than one person brought Angel,

dug the dirt, laid her down with their filthy hands. Maybe someone very local. That's where I'm going. Finding the people who were last with Angel and searching for anyone from around here who may seem viable. I'm interested in the woodcutting and the lichen and some tips that have come into my inbox.

Laurie and I leave this place for now in silence. But it's a silence of strength. Sound design by Evan Kelly. Natalia Ferguson is our transcriber. Emily Connell is our digital producer. Chris Oak is our story editor. Our executive producer is Cecil Fernandez. And the director of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani.

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