Someone Knows Something - S8 E5: Return to Pilot Mountain

Episode Date: October 16, 2023

David and Laurie return to Pilot Mountain looking for information about Angel’s case. What do the residents remember about Angel’s murder? Did any of them see anything? Find the full-text transcript for this episode here: www.cbc.ca/1.6970507

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Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. This is a CBC Podcast. Good morning. Hi. Hi, how are you? This is a CBC Podcast. Okay, I'm working on a case of Angel Carlic who disappeared in 2007. I work on a true crime podcast called Someone Knows Something. Yeah, listen to it. I'm the guy. Not all tips lead me to the right person. The man I was looking for was known to drive around Whitehorse propositioning young Indigenous girls.

Police say his name is not known to their investigation, and the tipster who told me about him says she saw him appearing furtive to her out at Pilot Mountain around the time Angel would have disappeared. Okay. Thanks a lot. See you later. Don't tell anyone I was here. I will keep looking for the man the tipster told me about, alongside the growing list of names that have been mentioned to me. There you go.

I came here on a tip that's circumstantial, but I still feel that tips like this are worth looking into. Except that my time here in Whitehorse is limited, and Pilot Mountain is beckoning. I'm David Ridgen, and this is Someone Knows Something Season 8, The Angel Carlet Case, Episode 5, Return to Pilot Mountain. Just driving up Boreal Road, this is where the tipster said that she saw the man in the red truck driving up to the stop sign. Gave her a strange look and they just looked at each other and she felt they didn't belong this is another part of a subdivision associated with pilot mountain and there's some housing along here as well some of them back onto the same power cut though lori strand and i have decided to return to

pilot mountain the place where Angel's remains were found, to try to talk to some of the people who currently live here. So I'll be looking at maps to determine who was here and who wasn't. This is the road right next to Springer Road that leads up into the... Oh, there you go. Hello? Hello, is this David? This is David.

Hi, David, this is Vicki Durant. I've been trying to speak to Vicki Durant for a while now. Lori had a brief call with her yesterday, and that led Vicki to finally call me, I think. She was Angel's supervisor and mentor at the youth center. My preference is always in person, but Vicki seems to want to talk now, so we pull over to the side of the road just as it starts to rain. I spoke with Lori yesterday, and it definitely has caused me a lot of emotional mental stress bringing the whole

piece of angel carlick up like it really triggered like i'm actually quite a basket case at the moment because of oh i'm sorry to hear that don't know, there's just so much that happened, and Angel was like my daughter. It's just stuff that, you know, when you aren't able to have closure, you pretty much put it way back in the back of your mind. I mean, it's been 15 years, and so I didn't think I'd ever, you know,

that it would ever be resolved. And so I kind of, it was like a shock for me. I know what you're talking about. But people like you are very important because you knew Angel, and you felt of her as your daughter, and the information you have is invaluable. So it's kind of like a double-edged sword. You have to kind of revisit these horrors in order to help move forward. Yeah, I think I realized that.

And I have to apologize in here if I break down and cry because I feel like there's, that might just happen. So, Vicki, just tell me a little bit about yourself and how you knew Angel. So I actually met her mom first, Wendy, and Wendy was going through a very difficult time trying to address some of her alcohol issues and at the same time wanting really to pull things together and provide a very safe place for her kids, for Angel and her brother. And so at that time, we were running a shelter for homeless youth. And Wendy approached me and asked if she could possibly move in. It was an old hotel that no longer exists.

So there was like 20-some rooms in the hotel. Wendy moved in with Angel and Alex, but only briefly. Vicky says she attempted to purchase the hotel and make the housing project permanent, but that government funding fell through. So we lost the hotel and we had to evict everybody from, like all the kids, as well as the parents, as well as Wendy. But Angel kept coming to the drop-in center that Vicki also ran, and eventually Vicki became very close to her

and hired Angel to be part of the meal program there. And Angel, she was amazing. You know, I think for her age, she was, like, so advanced. And I think she was, like, 15 or 16 by the time that we had hired her to be a part of the feeding program. And she would cook. She took care of the kitchen with, of course, our help. And she was an amazing role model for the other youth. But we had a lot of very, very troubled youth in Whitehorse.

It was horrible. There was a lot of alcohol and drugs during that time. Vicki wasn't around during the crucial period of Angel's disappearance, and Vicki says upon her return to Whitehorse, she quickly became frustrated with police. Yes. At first, the police, I felt that they took way too long to get active on the case because they at first thought it was just, she ran away. And I told them, I said, there's absolutely no way Angel ran away I know her I knew her very very well I know that what her goals were as well as uh if she was going to run

away why wouldn't she pick up her check I think in that first little while when they were getting all these calls or they were getting calls from, it was bizarre people from other places. And I don't know, maybe it was just someone calling to distract them, to give them information to lead them away from Whitehorse. Didn't make any sense. And she never did pick up her final check, which was at the end of the month, right? And I kept saying, no, no, she's not anywhere other than somewhere here in the Yukon. Police confirm with me that Angel worked some shifts the week starting May 21st, 2007, with

her last shift being on May 25th. They also confirmed that she never picked up her paycheck. I angle towards some of the specific questions that have come up about Angel's habits, starting with her bicycle. Okay, that's another thing, the bicycle, yeah. The family hotel, um, are you familiar with this? It's called the family hotel? I'm not 100% sure, but I did call the police and let them know, like, the bike is there. Maybe you guys should pick it up. So Vicky is the eyewitness reported in some media who saw this bicycle locked up at the family hotel, a place that still exists in downtown Whitehorse. How do you know it was Angel's bike? Because Angel would bring it to the youth centre.

And what did it look like? Oh my God, that's 15 years ago. I mean, I can't remember what colour it was right now. Vicky remembers seeing Angel regularly chain up her bike at the youth centre. After seeing the bike at the family hotel, Vicky approached the manager there to ask about it. So I went and I spoke with the manager and at that point the bike was gone. And I had asked the manager of the hotel, I said, where is the bike? And he said, well, we cut the chain and threw the bike away.

Oh, you're kidding. Yeah, so I'm not sure if that is, but that's what he told me. I'll have to see what police have on this. The family hotel, what else is around there other than the hotel? Why would she park her bike there, do you think? I believe there was someone in the hotel that she was visiting. And it was,

it's a hotel that homeless people, people who, you know, the government would pay for their room. So I believe she was visiting someone at the family hotel. Vicky says she asked the hotel manager for a list of the people who were staying there at the time of Angel's disappearance. But they weren't very forthcoming. Good for you for trying to ask though. Those are exactly the kinds of questions you need to ask. So great that you went in there and saw the bike. Angel that was her main means of transportation was her bike. of transportation, that's her bike.

And so unless someone had a vehicle, and I don't recall many, other than the cab drivers, I don't recall many of the youth, actually probably none of the youth at that time, had a vehicle. Angel never left town, hardly ever. You know, she, and none of the kids really left would leave town. They would party and they would, you know, hang out at the hotels, in the bush, at the parks, drinking. So no party places out of town, basically no party places up on Pilot Mountain that you knew of that they would go to. Absolutely not. Vicki also tells me about some people who knew Angel through the center.

And like I said, I don't remember his name. But he was very interested in Angel and she did not have the same feelings towards him. Vicki says that this young man was often in the company of another young woman and that they were both not from Whitehorse. And I can't remember her name as well but anyhow there was a fight between Angel and this young girl, like maybe a couple of weeks before Angel went missing. A couple of weeks before Angel disappeared, according to Vicky, she had a physical fight with this other girl at Blue Feather. So at that point, it was like, okay, Angel's working here, so I had to ask that other girl. I had to tell her until she is able to make amends and resolve the conflict that she wasn't welcomed back at the center.

And so I know she was quite upset about that. Was there ever anybody else in the Pilot Mountain area that you had thought about or heard about from anybody about this with relation to Angel's case? Okay, yes. Another character. Back during those days, there was a lot of deviant cab drivers who were taking advantage of the youth, young girls and boys. And Angel had mentioned several things. And we had actually encountered several problems with the cab drivers in regards to the use and there was one character that I like one cab driver who we were very like we didn't have any evidence or anything uh proof of what he was involved in, but we know that he had been giving the girls rides for free. And, you know, it was like, for him it was, and he wasn't the only one.

I don't know his name. All I know is that he did live in that neighborhood where Angel's remains were found. Also, I shared this information with the police, so they were aware. And I think probably questioned him. But like I said, I don't know his name. I don't even know if he's still in town. He was just a very strange individual.

He would take photographs of the girls, you know. He always carried his camera around. And he lived in that, I think he rented a cabin, some kind of a property in that neighborhood. In Pilot Mountain? Yes. I've looked into a taxi driver who seems to match Vicky's description and who even had a record of sexual assault on the job.

But according to police, he didn't live in Pilot Mountain and while they did not look into this taxi driver, they looked into others without finding connectivity to Angel's case. The taxi driver tip is an interesting one. And how do you know that he lived here? What makes you think he lived here? Whitehorse being a small town, everybody kind of knows everybody. Vicki is someone I wish I met in person. She tells me a lot more about people I should try to talk to, but wants to keep these names and this other information between me and her. These are people who may or

may not have any knowledge of what happened to Angel, but what I am hearing makes me want to find them, along with the couple from the drop-in center and that taxi driver who allegedly lived in the area Lori and I are currently parked and idling in, Pilot Mountain. Okay, well, thank you so much, David, and God bless you and doing what you're doing. Actually, at this point, I actually feel relieved in some ways, so thank you for helping me. Okay, great. Okay, I'm glad to hear that. Okay, well, you take care. Thank you, Vicki. We'll talk again. Okay, bye-bye.

Bye-bye. Lori and I drive through the subdivision and park near the place where Angel was found, talking through the call with Vicki as we make our way out to the site on foot. Vicky wasn't here the week before Angel disappeared, so I can't get Vicky to verify that Angel was at work those days. So somehow police verified that Angel was at work, they say, on the 25th and maybe a couple of days before that.

I just want to double-check that math and make sure that she was at work. While we're here on Pilot Mountain, Laurie and I decide to collect some of the lichen from stumps near where Angel was found, in hopes that aging it might help figure out when the stumps were cut. As it turns out, lichen isn't a great way to determine timing because of its unpredictable growth pattern, but as we walked into the site that day, I noticed something is different. See, look at these tire tracks. Someone drove right up here recently.

In the last five days? Since I've been here. Since I've been here. In a truck. That's not ATV, that's a truck. Now, let's look for that first diagonal piece of wood. Don't tell me someone's taking it okay now that's nuts

there was one right here there it is it's been pushed over it's not just the tire tracks The long diagonal branch of deadwood I've come to recognize as a marker for the site of Angel's remains Is now broken I love you. via rail's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze. No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy,

and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences. For your next trip, do yourself a favor, skip traffic and take Via Rail. Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail.

Paid content with Via Rail Canada. business when the time comes. Because at Desjardins Business, we speak the same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business. I'm just really sort of freaked out by that piece of wood that's been broken here. I don't see any sign of anything that would have fallen on this piece of wood. No. Other than a foot. Bear scratching it maybe, but I'd pick a stronger tree if I was a bear.

I don't see any scratches on that tree. No, I don't either. I don't see any scratches on that tree. No, I don't either. I don't see any of that. This spot we're standing under a dense spindly canopy of black spruce cannot be seen from the power line trail. An uncomfortable static charge raises the hair on my neck. Was someone else in here over the day or two since I was here last? Whether or not the breaking of this branch was an intentional act, someone or some other creature did it.

We move out. Time to talk to some of the locals. Alright, let's see if the dog can not bite my head off here. I gotta wait until an owner sees me. I think he's gonna turn around if he sees this dog barking. Hi! How are ya? This is gonna be another fun one. Hi! How are you?

This is going to be another fun one. I've pulled into a compound with a house and some outbuildings, including a large drive shed with big doors for vehicles to get in and out. I've approached a man standing outside of this shed with his truck inside idling. He appears to be in his late 60s or early 70s. Is your dog okay? Yeah. Oh, she'll be okay.

I work for CBC. I'm interested in talking to people out here because I'm working on the case of Angel Carlic. Oh, yes. And I don't know if this building was here at the time or not. I can't tell from the map. Yeah, I'll wait till you... Yep. Oh, boy.

I don't know what's going on. He went back into the garage. This man's property is the closest to the site Angel was discovered. He emerges from the drive shed carrying what looks like a color photocopy. Then he holds it up for me to read. Is it true or did you hear it on CBC News? So, go back where you came from. Oh really? Yes. I keep pressing just to see where this might go.

Because you don't like CBC? I listen to Pravda as well. Ah, okay. Right. So I just need to know, was this house here at the time? In 2007? You can leave now. Right. So I just need to know, was this house here at the time? In 2007? I believe not. Okay. You'd need to give yourself the opportunity to talk, though, right? There's nothing to talk about. They'll never find out we killed that girl.

It's, you know, she was at the wrong place at the right time, and somebody took her out. It's a very sad story. Were you guys living here when she was found? You're good. Well, I just need the info. I just need that one answer. I know, I know.

Just one answer. I mean, I can find out. I'm sure you can. But it's easier if you just tell me, then I can say that they were here, but they didn't see anything. I just need to hear... We're not going to say anything.

Okay. Okay. All right. I just think it's really odd. Like, you know, why stop me and tell me that? And then... And that's all I get from the property owner. I don't get the impression he has more information,

and he's made it clear that he doesn't want to talk to me. Soon, Lori and I come across a woman walking her dog. Hello. Morning. We pull over and approach. It turns out that she does remember Angel. We were just there. This is one of her friends, Lori. Oh, hi. I'm so sorry for the loss. It was a very devastating thing. The police knocked

on all our doors. So, yeah. Her name is Heather, and she's lived in the Pilot Mountain subdivision since the early stages of its development. I've been here for 35 years. Wow, wow. So tell me about the experience of the time when Angel was found here and your experience of that. Well, we knew she was missing for a long time. And the only thing, the police came to the door because they questioned everybody if they had seen anything or heard anything.

I mean, it was a long time ago now and I had a young daughter and of course it hits home eh that somebody young has gone missing and and is found out here. So I was devastated really and scared. Yeah. Yeah and when they came to talk to you I guess they asked did you see anything? Did you hear anything? Yeah, you know, there was a lot of partying going down at the other end of the subdivision around that time. And I did tell the police about it because there was a few times I used to call and say, hey, you know, you better come and clear out the road and clear out, you know, they'd have big bonfires. And I was scared of the forest catching fire and stuff.

But, you know, I don't know if they actually came out or not, but there was partying happening out here. Down that way? Just at the end of this road, right in the subdivision. Right here? Yeah. So if I went to the end of the road here, could I see a trail to go in to see that? Probably, it's on someone's private property, so probably not. Heather says she was working day shifts in May 2007

and was being kept awake by the partying in the area at night. She thinks that the majority of the partygoers were in their 20s and 30s. You know what, there could have easily been younger kids there. There was always a lot of cars parked along the road and stuff, so people had come from out of town. Would it have been like community locals to this area, or do you think white horse kids would come out? Oh, I think people came out from town. Really? Oh yeah, absolutely.

20 minutes out here? Absolutely. That's not far to go to a bush party out here. Did you remember talking to your neighbours about it or asking any of them if they had seen anything? Well, we all would have talked about it for sure, but, you know, there's always speculation. You know, my thing always goes back to the parties. But back then, it was mostly just local people around here. Heather is one of the only people I've spoken to so far

that says there were parties happening in this area in May 2007. The details about them could be important, but I wonder if Angel ran in the same social circles as those who attended them. So far, everyone says she would never have come to Pilot Mountain on her own. I'll be trying to find anyone who might have been at these parties. Thank you very much. Okay, well, and you know what? Again, my condolences.

It was a dreadful thing, and believe me, it touched all our hearts very much. There's too much of this still going on, and it would be nice to see the end of such tragedies. So in there, that's got to be where she's talking about. Where all those trailers and the old abandoned trailers and stuff are. Yeah. That's a lot of junk. She was right. You can't miss it. With Heather's guidance, we find the party property a short distance down the road.

It's filled with derelict vehicles and junk of all descriptions, like a scrapyard in the middle of nowhere. We pull over to take a closer look. Maybe it's still owned by the same person. I wonder whose property that is. I don't know. Should we back up and get a lot number? Yep. Go back up there.

It still doesn't necessarily feel like... Maybe it does. maybe it does feel like someone at the party with vehicle could have at least known that spot you know bring her to that spot party with her end of night scenario and then that's it okay i'll drive you home and not drive her home yeah it doesn't necessarily make sense to me that people would be coming in from that far away to party there. It was fun to bush party. You know, I'm trying to think of my teen years. I grew up in a different community, but it was fun to go out, stand by a bonfire and have music playing. And I knew everybody I was with.

But if there was a new person there then it was always welcomed as well right be nice to call the person who owns that property and ask them about it and ask them about the same person that owns it and ask them what you know the history of the parties are and see actually ask police about any kind of busts they've made on that property. Mm-hmm. Prior, since then. What's interesting is that our CMP guy, that Mike Simpson, did not point out that spot to me as we drove by. Mm. I'll ask Corporal Simpson about this junkyard later, along with the information Vicki Durant provided earlier.

It seems Pilot Mountain could hold some crucial information, and perhaps more answers than what has already been uncovered. It's the kind of community where old neighbours may not even know each other, and where some people may choose not to talk. I'm hoping Simpson might be able to provide more detail about the taxi driver Vicky told me about, or others from around here who might have knowledge that could link to Angel. Hello? Anybody there?

Hello? Something about the arrangement of an old container shed makes me think that there may be someone living in this junkyard right now. And there's at least one dog. We decide to drive in. This container shed makes me think that there may be someone living in this junkyard right now. And there's at least one dog. We decide to drive in. I don't know if I should get out, the dogs are over there.

Hello? Hello? Hello? Let's see if there's anybody paying attention to what's going on here. There's a pit bull looking at me. Oh, there we go, there's someone opening the door. Hello? Here we go. Hi. Sorry to bug you. I didn't realize anybody was here until I heard a voice. Here we go. Hi.

Sorry to bug you. I didn't realize anybody was here until I heard a voice. I work for CBC, and I'm doing a program about a woman who disappeared and was murdered, actually. Two people emerge from a trailer and introduce themselves. The woman, Bailey, approaches first, quickly followed by her partner, Mike, who tells me he's only lived in Whitehorse for a few months. So you guys haven't been here that long? No.

Mike and Bailey give me the name and number of the person who owns this junkyard. They don't have much else that might help Angel's case, but maybe the owner does. We'll just stop here and I'll call the fellow that owns this property here and see if he answers. Sit by the mailboxes, maybe I can interview the entirety of the countryside here. You're a machine, you just keep going and going and going. All right. Let's see if I can get that off the call list. Yeah.

What was his name again? Shit. Hello? Oh, hi. Who's this? This is David Ridge, and I'm a Canadian Broadcasting Corporation podcaster. I work for CBC, and I'm working on a case in Whitehorse about the disappearance of a young woman, Angel Carlic, who was murdered. I've got a couple of questions for you about a property you own.

Yeah, so this is something I'm interested in talking about for the podcast. So now Angel's body was found out here in 2007. Are you familiar with the case? Not on your property she wasn't found. No, no, I don't know nothing about that. Yeah. In 2007, were people using your property to party on? Was there ever sort of a police coming and breaking up parties on your property here?

Not that I know of. Okay. Police coming and breaking up parties on your property here? Not that I know of. Okay, so some of the people here in Pilot Mountain said that this property, people used to have bonfires here and park cars, and they used to have police come and break them up and things. You don't recall that ever happening? Well, you talked to those people. Yeah, I asked them about it, but they said I should call the property owner, and I think that's you, right?

So you don't remember any parties out here? Oh, I think he hung up. Hello? Yeah, I think he hung up. That was it. I don't try calling back. I think he's given me all he's willing to give, which isn't very much. A land title search does show that he is actually the owner of this property and has been since 1992.

Another longtime resident I spoke to seems not to recall any parties here. Lori and I keep driving, circling through the subdivision, retracing these roads that I studied for months before coming to Whitehorse. It's been a long day for me and Lori, so we decide to leave Pilot Mountain for now. Thanks for being patient with me this morning. Patience is my middle name. I don't even own patience. I don't really have any. Then on the way out, we spot another person and get their attention.

There's somebody. Hello! And it turns out that she is also a long-time resident of Pilot Mountain. We were only here when she was found. Oh, okay. This woman, Yammy, tells me RCMP interviewed her and her husband Boris as they did many of the other long-time residents during their initial canvassing. And nobody could? as they did many of the other long-time residents during their initial canvassing. And nobody could?

You guys obviously, did you see or hear anything or remember anything from that time? No, we were only here when she was found. Ah, okay. I don't know if you could still see it. There was a red or green dot high up in a, higher up in a pine tree where they had put a camera just to record the RCMP had in case anyone else came back. That's interesting. And the only, because that was months later,

the RCMP came back or it was the, I don't know what you call them, the inspector who was in charge of that case, came back and showed me a picture. I'm sure he showed it to everybody. Does this woman look familiar to you? Any idea? And it was a picture of a young woman, maybe 20, who had been walking on this road right by that camera. And, you know, we kind of thought maybe someone was, you know, mourning her and revisited that spot.

That's interesting. As far as I know, they don't know where she was killed. RCMP says the trail camera was put up by them for a short while at the spot where Angel's remains were found, but that they were ultimately not able to find the person that they saw appear on the recording. So it was all very, it was very sad and very creepy. I just wish people could break through that and just talk about this case, you know. Well, we always thought, oh, I remember too, around the same time that this happened, there were people, they don't live there anymore, people on the other road who, their son was in lots of trouble. Oh.

And they're gone, they're not here now, and the son, I didn't know this until someone told me, he died, but they had a little gang oh and the people who used to live on a lot number it's the lot with the pictures of the mountains with the fireweed oh yes okay yep okay those people they there was there were some people who lived in there who I think they were broken into by this group where they suspected it. According to available reporting and police statistics from the time, in 2007, there were a series of break-ins happening in Whitehorse, and there had been mention of a group of young men being responsible. Not sure if the person Yammy is talking about might be connected to that.

It would have been too young when I first knew to have a license but not that that stops anybody. Yeah, but um... 2070 would have been like 16 or 17? Yeah, I would think so, yeah. That's interesting. And they were on this other road? The other road, yeah. The place was sold quite a long time ago. After 2007, though? Yes.

Okay. Yeah. Something feels different about this information, this name Yammy has given me. Call it a hunch, intuition, whatever, but the synchronicities seem to be there. You had tons of great info, though. I mean, you're great. This is why I do this, because it's like... You know, people here generally... You're going to meet people, though,

who haven't lived here very long. Right. Because it's really, the place has really changed. We always used to know everybody, you know, or at least on our road, and it's not like that anymore. Oh, okay. Thanks very much. Okay. See you.

Okay, take care. Bye. I tell Lori what Yami has just told me. It turns out that Lori knows someone who knew this family and their son. Okay, so you just got a message from the person we're trying to get information from. What did they say? who knew this family and their son. Okay, so you just got a message from the person we're trying to get information from. What'd they say? They said that they knew that they grew up

at Pilot Mountain near a family friend of ours, and then she might know them better. Great, so can we contact that person? Yeah, do you know? Okay, one step forward. One baby step forward, that's good. Yeah. Or one step... We're doing the two-step with the case.

The baby step, two-step. Yeah. We leave Pilot Mountain and head back towards Whitehorse, but my mind is fixed on the location Angel's remains were found. That diagonal broken branch, the fresh tire marks. I do tell Corporal Mike Simpson about it, and he says that it was him who placed the branch there to help him locate the site because he had seen others like it

placed diagonally closer to where Angel was found. And in fact, one of these diagonal branches can actually be seen in the crime scene photos taken in 2007. Police, according to Simpson, did not place the one I can see in these photos. Simpson also says that he hasn't returned to the site since we were there. And on the question about the person Yammy mentioned, I put that to Simpson too. There was another person mentioned to me, and it was a son of a family that lived there. Did you look into that person?

We did. And what did you find on him? You know, a person of interest. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by me, David Ridgen. Thank you. our digital producer. Chris Oak is our story editor. Our executive producer is Cecil Fernandez. And the director of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani. If you want to help new listeners discover the show, please rate and review wherever you listen. Find us on

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