Someone Knows Something - SKS S5 Extra: Spread the Word

Episode Date: October 15, 2020

David and Trevor follow new tips in the Kerrie Brown case and learn more about who the 911 caller may have been looking for on the night Kerrie was murdered.

Help turn off hesitation, turn off doubt, turn off fears. With your support, the YMCA of Greater Toronto helps people turn off whatever's holding them back so they can let their potential shine. Help turn on confidence and connections and possibilities. From youth shelters to job training, mental health counseling and beyond, the YMCA offers hundreds of programs that empower people to shine their brightest. See our charity's impact at ymcagta.org slash charity. This is a CBC Podcast.

The following program contains mature subject matter. Listener discretion is advised. You are listening to Someone Knows Something from CBC Podcasts. In Season 5, I travelled north to Thompson, Manitoba to investigate the 1986 murder of Carrie Brown. This is a Season 5 Extra episode. Spread the word. It's early morning here, July. I'm driving through Thompson, Manitoba once again. Overcast, about 14 degrees now.

Just on my way to see Trevor. David Brinchen! You crazy man! Come on in. How's it going man? Getting my son. It's been nice up here man. I've been biking, walking, hiking, all kinds of good stuff. You look good, man. Thanks, man. You look good. Since season five began, Trevor and I have been receiving tips we want to catch up on. And we want to keep digging into the phone call civilian RCMP operator Marnie Schaefer took

on the early morning that Carrie was murdered. But before we can get into anything more, there's a bit of catching up to do. There he is, Jim. Hello, Dave. How are you? I'm good. How are you doing, sir? Yeah, doing all right. Better than I was a year ago. You look better than you were a year ago. Yeah, we're all right. I pass a beaming Jim Brown leaning on the living room doorframe in his Boston Bruins jersey and fresh cropped hair. He smiles and claps me on the back as Trevor moves past me down the hall to take a seat on the couch in the living room. We got a little fox keeps coming around here.

Oh, is that right? He's right up to the door. He plays with the kids out there just like a domestic dog. Does he come every day? He comes around. He's in the neighborhood every day. A lot of times he'll show up early in the morning, yeah. I sit next to Kerry's stuffed bear on the couch with Trevor. Above us, on the wall, photos of Kerry, one with Trevor and their brother Ian,

and a new painting of a raven by an artist named Jason Lucas given to Trevor by some SKS listeners. That is beautiful. And did he paint that just for you? So Halloween, literally, October 31st, he painted it. So that's three weeks into the podcast. I see, okay. They all pitched in, three of them paid for it

and then brought it here on the evening of Halloween. That's really nice. Trevor then pulls out a giant raven costume he wore while leading the Nickel Days parade for Thompson's annual Summer Fair Festival. It's great to be with Trevor again. There's a few things we need to do here in Thompson. First, tips, and a man who claims to have been on the scene the night Kerry disappeared from the Trout Street party. This is a story that has been circulating around Thompson, and I wanted to look more closely at it.

Trevor said that you might have had some experience that you might want to relate. Yeah. That might be interesting to hear. So tell me what you know. Trevor's invited the source of this tip over, and we're all sitting side by side on the couch. The man shuffling nervously next to me looks to be in his late 40s or early 50s.

His name is Wayne. He says his story starts on the night Kerry disappeared on Westwood Drive, right where Rainbow Crescent connects at the East End. Well, on the night in question, I'm walking the dog. Trout Avenue hits Rainbow just metres away, so he's positioning himself within a stone's throw of the party Kerry was last seen at. It starts with a girl he says passes him on the street. And the girl passes me. She's wearing black pants, pirate's jacket, pirate written right here, and I can see leopard print right here.

But already Trevor spies a potential factual error. She was wearing a pirate's jacket. You're on the right city Wrong team Penguins It might have been It was a Pittsburgh Penguins jacket It might have been Color was her hair? I'm going to say blonde

Okay I believe she was wearing a baseball cap too I'm not sure That part is kind of fuzzy Time of night? I'm going to say anywhere between 10.15 and 11.15 because I looked at my watch for some reason. And this is the night Carrie disappeared.

Wayne says he passes a girl who he suggests, through his description, is Carrie Brown. That girl then continues past him, out of sight and Wayne never sees where she goes. He then continues a short distance with his dog and then a familiar figure enters the story. Now I get to the top of Rainbow and I see my dog stop to take a pee. Sumner's car swings around, stops under the light pole where my dog was peeing. Sumner's car. Pat Sumner, according to this man, drives up close by and parks. You recognize his car?

I recognize the car. I recognize Pat because I worked at the head frame. You saw Pat in the car? Yeah. Driving that car, the greenish gold or whatever? Yeah it's it's a sandy sandy goldish colored car. I see another girl walk down Pintail because I can see her legs and it's cold out and she's wearing a skirt. She starts walking towards me and turns and gets into Pat's car. I waved at Pat. Another woman approaches from the nearby Pintail Crescent, he says,

and gets into Sumner's car. But the person Pat picked up... That person, I believe, was Charlotte Chasseline. Someone that he used to hang out with. Just last week, I know Pat. I asked Pat. I came out and asked him after all these years. I said, you were there. You turned around at the top of Rainbow. You picked up Charlotte Chassell Lane. He turns, looks at me and says, I have no memory of that. He has no memory of that night whatsoever, or that period of time. And did you tell police?

I told police. When the whole interview, Carrie Anne Brown case, Somebody Knows Something, came out, they just recorded it and that was it. They never came back to me, never asked any more questions, nothing. Hello? Oh, hi, is this Charlotte? Yep. Hi, Charlotte. It's Charlie, but not Charlotte, yeah.

Oh, okay, sorry. It's David Ridgen calling. Thanks so much for doing this. I'm working on an investigative podcast about the murder of Carrie Brown up in Thompson. I call Charlotte Chastellane to verify this story. And your name came up. Somebody mentioned that they had seen you that night, close to Westwood Drive and Rainbow.

But this person who told me they saw you said that they saw you getting into a car, and the car was driven by Patrick Sumner. Do you know Patrick Sumner? I do. Pat just left my house. He was here for a week visiting me. He just left on Tuesday, Tuesday morning. Oh, okay. Okay, so that's interesting. So it would be October, the night of October 16th, 1986. Do you remember if he picked you up, say, around 10.30, around 11? I didn't know Pat. I didn't know Pat at that time. I was 15 years old and pregnant during that time. I had my baby in May.

This person said he saw Pat picking you up at the corner, right at that corner. And he said that you had a skirt on and high heels. No. It wasn't me, they're mistaken. I didn't know Pat at that time. Okay. I would have been at Highland Towers that night. Okay.

Do you think that it's possible this person who told me that he saw you get into Pat's car might have seen you a couple of years later getting into Pat's car? Yeah. Okay. More than likely. So like at some point you might have gotten into Pat's car. Oh, for sure.

Well, we became friends. We became very close friends. I hung around with Pat for forever. Like, basically since I was 17 years old, I've known Pat. He's still a really good friend, basically. He's a wonderful person. There's no way, there's no way that Pat could have done something like that. There's no way. He's one of the most gentle guys

I've ever known. You know, he's... He doesn't have a mean bone in his body. You know what I mean? He's just... You know, they got the wrong person. And I hope and pray one day that they find out, you know, who did that to Carrie. That was just a horrible,

horrible thing. Wayne's conviction that he had seen and experienced this night at the intersection close to Trout Avenue on the night Kerry disappeared became a theory that became, I believe, a rumour. And I think it's one that can be dispelled on the basis of timing alone. The events could not have happened, according to Charlotte, because she didn't even know Sumner at the time and was pregnant. Two years after Carrie was murdered, Charlotte says she met Sumner for the first time. I didn't detect any hesitation in Charlotte's answers, and she says while police did question her when she was 17 and working at the Thompson Chicken Chef, because they noticed her spending time with Sumner.

This would be 1988 as a rough estimate. They haven't spoken to her since. The next tip will require active help from listeners. Well, like, it was on a Thursday night. It was a ladies' night out at the Headframe. Tamara Franzen is speaking to me from a residence in Winnipeg. She says her experience on the evening Carrie disappeared bears much more scrutiny than she says it has gotten from the RCMP. Around close to midnight, I would say these guys come in.

There was five of them, and they were wearing kickboxing jackets, like they were in a team. I'd never seen them before. They weren't in Thompson. I grew up there, so, you know, Tamara says she worked as a cook and bartender at a couple of bars in Thompson in the 1980s, including at the Headframe, the bar she's talking about now. She was there on a night off, she says, on the evening that Carrie Brown disappeared, October 16th, 1986. How do you know that it was the same night that Carrie disappeared? How do

you know it was the same Thursday night and Friday morning? Because it was right after that Carrie Brown was found. It was like that weekend. It was like right there and then. Okay. Do you remember what it said on the team or what the jacket said? I think the jacket was black and then the picture of the guy kickboxing. And what age would you say these guys were? Well, 18 and up for sure. They were just young, like we were all young. I had to have been about 19 at the time.

This guy, he come up to me behind me and he really ran really hard into my shoulder. And he points to me and he says, let's go down. So I'm like, F you, you know. And I turned around and I just ignored him. And then

he kept on looking at me, glaring at me. And then I heard him say, I'm going to kill you. You better watch it. You're not getting away. And so anyways, I kind of like pushed it off. So when it came to the end of the night, now closing time, and the girls were going out and they were standing there waiting for me. They seen me.

And it was a white van. And it was right parked right, right parked right up by the door, like right in front. I turned around, and I went back in. Yeah, I'm scared to go. A few vehicles of interest had been seen the night Carrie disappeared. One of them was a white van seen by Sean Simmons coming out of the stable roads with its lights off. A friend of mine, Harold, he pulled up in a truck.

And I noticed that one last guy, he was getting into the van. So I booted out the door and I ran running and jumped in the truck. And then I told Harold, get the heck out of here. Don't take me home. I said, I'm scared. I said, I think these guys are out to hurt me. And he took off. And did you see the direction their van drove? Well, they followed us. They followed you where? Towards the airport and then carried on. We took off like a bat out of the heck, but they were following us. Towards the airport would take the van right past the entrance to the stable road. Well, that would be going towards, I guess, Gillom, wherever.

You'll pass the airport and keep on going out of Thompson. Yep, so these guys followed you, and then how did you lose them? Did you just go faster than they did? Faster, and it kept on going, and then finally we didn't see them anymore like no lights or nothing the following day i phoned the rcmp because i didn't have a phone so i had to wait till i went to work and i called there and i told them what happened because i was like really scared like and i'm not normally scared so the day after would have been friday you called the rcmp and told them them on the Friday that this happened to you? And of course, Carrie's body had not been found until Saturday.

Do you remember the name of the person you spoke to? You know, I know it was Milkoff. And nobody ever contacted me back. So I just figured, well, they just figured I was a joke. And then after when Carrie's body was found and the ensuing days, weeks and months, what was going through your head? Like, did you sort of make a connection between those guys and Carrie ever? I thought for sure, but then they said they had somebody in custody. So then I just let it go.

And I kind of said they never, ever contacted me. The person police had in custody the following week was Patrick Sumner. so then I just let it go and I kind of said they never ever contacted me. The person police had in custody the following week was Patrick Sumner. They were part of a community team, I would say. Like, they were all around the same age. They could have been school team, like, I don't know. Do you think that any of them had been drinking? Did you see if any of them were? Oh yeah, oh yeah, they were all drinking. Okay. They were all drinking. Okay.

They were all drinking, yeah. And you had never seen them before? Nope, never before. And did you ever see them again? No, never seen them again. Never saw the white van again? Uh-uh. I have yet to find Harold.

The fellow Tamara said drove her out of the head frame that night to see if he could add anything further, but Trevor's done some work of his own. So, the story about the group of guys at the head frame the night of Kerry's murder. Yes. I did some digging around. Back in the day, there was only one martial arts club in Thompson.

That was the Thompson judo club they were the only martial arts club there was no kickboxing there was no karate yet no taekwondo yet it came in the early 90s I spoke with one of the teachers I got in touch with he said absolutely there was there would have been no tournaments going on in Thompson at that time at that time of year and because the club that was here at that time Thompson Judo Club because I mean there was they were a little they were one club in northern Manitoba they had to travel to go compete against all the other clubs right yeah so he assured me that um there wouldn't have been any reason for any type of club like that to have been in town that night. I don't know. I mean, also, could they have just been uniforms of some other sort and she mistook it for kickboxing? That's the other thing.

It could be anything. A club jacket, it would seem. Some kind of club jacket. Well, a lot of bands had their own jackets back in the day. I never thought of that. Bands made their own, like you'd see people come in, you'd know where they were from, it would tell you on the back of their jacket. God's Lake, Narrows, Soon Lookout, Norway, Cross Lake.

Getting the information out about tips like Tamara's can be as important as fully looking into them. These men and their van may have nothing to do with Carrie's murder, but if anyone listening can add to or back up aspects of Tamara Franzen's tip, please let me know. Having followed some of the viable tips I've heard, we decide to move on to a main piece of the Brown case we discovered in the regular season, the phone call. Hello? Good morning, Marnie. Good morning, how are you?

I'm good, it's David here. I'm here with Trevor and Jim Brown. We're sitting in the backyard of the house here. We decide to ask Marnie a few more questions about the call she received from the distraught man in the early morning hours of October 17th, 1986. The man who said he had just killed someone. My belief and Trevor's is that this person could very well be connected to the murder of Carrie Brown. Thanks for doing this. So what are the reasons this person would call and ask for a Norway House member? Number one, he wanted to confess to them. But why? Because they were a friend, they had previously known them. You know what, this guy...

Somehow had had a relationship with this previously, or the guy let him off the hook once. What are your reasons that you come up with? Why would the guy want to speak to that member? Well, first of all, he was probably calling Norway House. When the members go home for the night and they're on call, they could go home as early as 8 o'clock at night. It all depends.

Normally weekends they'd stay out until midnight or whatever. But the call, when they go home, they hit a diverter where their calls get diverted to Thompson. Okay. So we take calls. Now, when we answer the phone, people from the outlying areas, we don't say Norway House Detachment, we say Thompson Detachment. So this guy, in all likelihood, was not calling Thompson Detachment, he was calling Norway

House Detachment, because that's who he asked for, was a member Thompson detachment. He was calling Norway House detachment because that's who he asked for was a member in Norway House. And you're right. It could have been this member stopped him and he had a good relationship in that stop or he actually knew him or I sort of leaned towards the fact that he totally did not trust me but he had

complete trust in this specific member that he wanted to talk to so that to me says that I think he knew him how well I don't know but well enough for him to trust him so I think that with this member listening to his voice on the phone, like I say, the static, the, you know, the holding the phone to the tape, you know, it's not that clear. And I bet you anything, if he would have come to the detachment, he would have probably recognized that voice. So that's my guess. Okay, that's really interesting. The diversion thing, that speaks to intention of the caller a little bit. And just to be very clear, the caller asked you for a specific name, not just a member, right?

No, a specific member by name. So that's who we're going to look for now. Okay. Anything else that you think, other than looking into the communities, trying to get into the communities a little bit more? We all feel, you know, Trevor as well, and your dad, I'm sure, you know, feels that it was more than one person. One person could not have held Carrie down in the vehicle and drove at the same time. That's ludicrous. This girl's a feisty girl.

You know, she would have done something. And so it has to be more than one person. And, you know, when it's more than one person, in all likelihood, somebody, you know, like your show says, knows something. And sometimes, you know, that person then may tell someone else. And it may end up getting to a fifth person that's removed from the whole situation five times or whatever. When they start hearing this on the radio, it brings it all up. Then you start, it's a small community, you start getting the gossip going.

You start getting, oh yeah, I remember when. To stir the pot to get things going is the only way that something's going to come of this. Trevor, Jim and I agree wholeheartedly with Marnie. So basically, we're going to drive to Norway House. Okay. And we decide to get on the road to Norway House. Alright, well we'll see you later, bye.

Drive safe. Nice to see you again. All right, well, we'll see you later, bye. I need to see you again. See you, Jamie. So we're on our way out of Thompson here. Norway House is about a five hour drive from here, right? Yeah, yeah, it's a bit of a winding road. I wonder if anybody else heard the person making that actual phone call that night. That's the other question. I'll be honest, I never thought about it.

Did someone else put him up to that? I doubt that. Did somebody help them decide to make that call? There may be nothing connecting Norway House other than this guy saying a member from Norway House in his phone call. So we just have to be careful. Yeah, definitely. And skeptical about anything we hear.

And sensitive. Yeah, and sensitive to the approach. Marnie saying the call had been redirected has me thinking about who else, other than Norway House residents, might have need to have contact with Norway House police. Perhaps some of the outlying communities close by, or maybe the whole Norway House connection is a massive red herring. Hopefully, we'll find out more.

York Boat Diner. We arrive in Norway House, an indigenous community nestled on the north shore of Lake Winnipeg and enter a local restaurant packed with a lunchtime crowd. We're here to meet Lillian Arsenault. She grew up in Norway House and wants to help us any way she can. She's been living away from the community in southern Manitoba for many years, but returns periodically for family and friends, and now for us. She's an SKS listener and worked with Marnie at RCMP HQ at the call centre in Winnipeg. Hi Lillian, it's nice to meet you. This is Trevor. My name is Trevor Brown. We all sit down to a light deep fried lunch. Wearing glasses, shorter, quick thinking and

intensely personable, Lillian is easy to talk to off the bat. And after we're finished eating, we set out together to see if we can find out more about the caller and who they were calling. So the person who called Marnie, the distraught male who she says had an Indigenous accent, who called her on that early Friday, the 17th, 1986. Right. He said, I just killed somebody. I need to speak to an RCMP member from Norway House. Norway House Detachment. Marnie couldn't even remember the surname, but she said it was La something.

That she remembered. Yeah, because she said Lafreniere or something. Yes, but it was not. Immediately, I thought of Jew Lafreniere because he used to be here. I see. But he had gone forward already. By the name of, and Marnie couldn't remember, but I figured out that the member's name is Mike Labrasier.

Mike Labrasier. It's Mike Labrasier. Not Alain Labrasier. No, it's Mike Labassier. Mike Labrassier. It's Mike Labrassier. Not Alain Labrassier. No, it's Mike Labrassier. I'm sure it's Mike because I spoke to a cousin of mine. She knew the members here and she said his name was Mike. And I'm on the, what is called the RCMP mates. And I think he might be retired by now. Yeah, so I need to know how to contact Mike Labrasseur. If you're pretty sure that it's Mike Labrasseur. Mike Labrasseur.

Labrasseur. Right. So it's L-A? L-A. Oh, L-A. Labrasseur. V-E-R-A-S-S-E-U-R. I had left messages for an Alain Labrasseur, but have yet to hear anything back. So this person was a white officer?

Yes. Okay. French. So was there anybody else here who would have worked with Mike? Like that would still be here, probably, like Indigenous or otherwise? Well, that's why i was that's why i was going to the band constables because they'd be the ones that would still be here yeah really they're probably often retired already yeah the only other one that i'm thinking

of was that bill mcleod that i mentioned to you yeah yeah and bill mcleod isn't here in norway house anymore so i'll have to try to see him on the way out where he lives in Winnipeg. But there's another man who does live here, named Alvin Furland. We drive to his house. A man who appears to be in his late 40s approaches in a plaid shirt and a baseball cap. I want to introduce you to somebody. Alvin, this is David. I'm David.

Nice to meet you. This is Trevor and my son Owen here. Hello. Hi there. I work for CBC and I'm doing a documentary that I think you might maybe be able to help me with about a topic. I'm out of... In the hopes that the story of the call might start to jog memories, I go through the whole Marnie story with Alvin.

The only one I can think of between the members that are still around would be Henry. His mind's still good. Yeah? Would he talk to me? I wouldn't doubt it. How is his mind? He's all right.

Is that right? Henry Muswagon also worked as a band constable, and Alvin says he lives close by. Henry's got a list of members that were here at the tap. Yeah, we kind of kept up to date on that since the tap was open.

Oh, is that right? All members. He's got the members of everybody that started on this detachment. That is really useful. And he's got the list. In fact, Henry lives right next door. We drive for about 30 seconds and pull up a long gravel driveway in front of a yellow aluminum-sided bungalow. Lillian suggests that it's better if only I approach with her, so Trevor agrees to stay in the car. This is David. Hello. This is Hermes Waddle. I don't know where you want to start. You

should probably go somewhere a little quieter maybe. Yeah. Could we take you out on the step and talk to you? Sure. With your, with your, I'll put you in your wheelchair. Okay? Lillian pushes Henry out onto the front porch in his wheelchair. He looks to be in his early 80s. I'm going to turn him around so that he's out of the wind. Yeah, that's a good idea.

There you go. Okay. Great. So, Henry, I work for CBC, Canadian Broadcasting, Public Radio. I go through Kerry's story. And I'm trying to figure out who was the member that they called here in 1986 of October. What were some of the names? Do you remember any names of the people here in 86 that would have been here?

Yeah, I had a list of names, all the guys I worked with. So the list that you have, do you have it here? Do you have that list? No, but you might check the detachment here with Sergeant... What was his name? No, I... Henry says he gave the list to someone at the RCMP detachment. I'd already called a sergeant who told me he couldn't help. I messaged another member on Facebook,

but the RCMP Media Relations Department in Winnipeg messages me back telling me not to contact their members. Doesn't seem like they're willing to share any lists. Hi, this is Trevor. Hi, it's nice to meet you. Nice to meet you too. Thank you. Before leaving town, we're able to schedule a quick meeting with Norway House Council Member Darlene Osborne.

Thanks for coming to see us. Yes. So last time we talked about Helen Buddy's case, and I was also working on Trevor's sister's case. Yes. The sound quality from this meeting is unfortunately not great, but the outcome of it is that Darlene promises Trevor that she will do all she can to help get the word out about Carrie's case and the phone call. A lot of people will remember now that I know the name. They will know.

We try to help anyone that needs our help as well, you know, because we go through the same thing. Offering to help us with Carrie's case, when there are so many cases of missing and murdered Indigenous women to contend with, touches both Trevor and I. Well, we'll stay in touch on this. Okay, stay in touch. All right, well, thanks very much.

Yes. Thank you so much, darling. Yes, thank you. If someone listening hears something that triggers a memory, I hope they'll come forward. Making inroads into small communities of any kind is difficult and takes time. Patience is required on all our parts. Help turn off hesitation.

Turn off doubt. Turn off fears. With your support, the YMCA of Greater Toronto helps people turn off whatever's holding them back so they can let their potential shine. Help turn on confidence and connections and possibilities. From youth shelters to job training, mental health counseling and beyond, the YMCA offers hundreds of programs that empower people to shine their brightest. See our charity's impact at ymcagta.org slash charity.

Oh, that coffee smells good. Can you pass me the sugar when you're finished? Whoa, whoa, whoa, what are you doing? That's salt, not sugar. Let's get you another coffee. Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with mortgage payments on their minds.

If you're struggling with your payments, speak to your bank. The earlier they understand your situation, the more options and relief measures could be available to you. Learn more at Canada.ca slash ItPaysToKnow. A message from the Government of Canada. Just don't smoke weed and drive, guys. Yeah, of course not. Have a safe trip, boys.

You're going to be in Winnipeg by late, I guess, eh? The priority is finding out who the caller was, but Trevor's also very interested in what the RCMP are doing on the DNA front. It's hard to know what DNA they have to start with because Trevor doesn't have a copy of Kerry's autopsy. RCMP and the Manitoba Medical Examiner's office at this time were continuing to fight against releasing it to the Browns. Okay, Mike, thanks a lot. Thanks, brother. Thanks for everything, man. Great to see you. Yeah, it's good seeing you again, too. We'll see you again. Well, we will. You too, Owen. Take care, brother.

I drop Trevor off in Thompson, and I say my goodbyes to him and Jim. It's always hard to leave, walking out of the little house that Carrie used to live in. I head to Winnipeg to see if Billy McLeod can offer any help. Just heading into a building here in Winnipeg, trying to find Billy McLeod to see if he can help shed some light on who Mike Labrasser might be, or if he remembers the phone call that was made by Marnie that night. Hi there. Looking for Billy McCloud. Billy McCloud. He stayed at the far end on the first floor. Okay, great. Thanks. Hi there. Looking for Billy McLeod. Good to meet you.

Okay, Billy. I work for CBC. I'm a documentary producer. And I'm working on a case that I just want to talk to you about because I understand that you used to work as a constable in the 1980s? I was in the RCMP. Okay. I'm working on a podcast about a murder that happened in Thompson in 1986.

Again, I go through the Kerry Brown story and the phone call Marnie received. It's important to tell the story to as many people as I can. And I'm trying to find Mike Labrasser, or whoever took that call. Do you remember anything about that? Well, I remember the girl, I think I was living in Thompson at the time. But I was out of the RCMP then, in 86. Like, I got out in 84. Marnie said that the person she says likely was trying to call Norway House and it was routed to Thompson that's why she got the call. That probably would be

because that would have been our headquarters at the time like sort of it. That's where all the calls for all the northern communities, that's where it would go. So in 1986, was Norway House the only RCMP detachment on that big road in Garda? That's all it was, just Norway House. So you would police the other little communities? We looked after 13 communities out of Norway House. So you would police the other little communities? We looked after 13 communities out of Norway House. Okay, which communities then? There was Garden Hill, and Saint Therese, Oxford House, God's Lake, God's River and Cross Lake. Holy shit, I forgot that name.

Gregoire. That's the guy in Dothan. Gregoire. Gregoire, yeah. Corporal Gregoire. Okay, Corporal Gregoire in Dauphin, okay. Yeah. I feel like every person I'm talking to is incrementing slowly in the search for the original caller and the receiver of Marnie's call. I wish the process was easier, but this is how this story unfolds.

Hello. We are either not at home or away from the phone, so please leave a message. Hi there, I'm looking for Mr. Gregg Wire, who used to work in Norway House back in the 80s for the RCMP or as an RCMP member. My name's David Ridgen. I'm calling from CBC. Oh, hi. Is this Mr. Gregoire? Yes, it is. Hi there. Are you Mr. Gregoire that used to work in Norway House? I am. Oh, that is amazing. That is amazing. I'm working on the case of Kerry Brown, who was murdered in Thompson back in 1986. Does that ring a bell? I wasn't in our house in 1986. Ah, okay.

Turns out Gregg Weier was in Norway House in 1982, and he doesn't know who was there in 1986. But he does add to what Billy McLeod was saying about policing the outlying communities. We used to fly into all those spots. We had big reserves there, and so we were sending two men in every week for five days. It was busy, busy, busy. It would have to be somebody from Norway House that was calling the detachment from Thompson. If they murdered this Brown in Thompson and they were from Norway House,

that would be the only explanation why they would be calling a member in Norway House is that he would be still in Thompson, but they called the familiar detachment. It's either they had driven there or they had called right from Thompson very shortly afterwards. They seemed anxious and concerned. Are you recording this? Are you recording this? They

were saying to the person, but it was a confession. It wasn't, I know that a murder just happened. It was, I just killed somebody. So it was pretty specific. And in cases like that, would you expect that the caller is telling the truth? Yeah, I would think so. Yeah. And if they didn't, they definitely know who did it because it was that close to the time of the murder and the time of the phone call. If they didn't kill her, they were there. But to make that phone call, even if it was somebody that was mentally,

they would have known who it was being that close. Because we do have always had people that would admit to killing or doing some crime. But if it was somebody mentally that didn't do it, it would be way up to the case because you could always catch them up on the details. Right, because they would have read up on it or something. This was before anybody even knew she was missing, this call came in. This came in before any publicity about her at all. Finding the caller is the most important thing, but there's other updates.

Kerry's autopsy report. Hello? Hey, Trevor, it's David. So, we got awesome news, man. I got an email on Friday, and basically we're getting the autopsy, man. We're going to be receiving a formal letter on Tuesday from the lawyer for the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner, and the letter will indicate that they are going to be giving us the entire autopsy, Dave, unredacted.

Wow, that's great. Trevor and his father Jim retained Winnipeg lawyer Kevin Toyne, who worked pro bono to get this autopsy from the medical examiner's office. Trevor had previously had a copy of the autopsy but lost it in a move while he lived in Winnipeg. RCMP blocked access to the new request, but now the medical examiner is releasing it to the Browns, with some strings attached. There are some stipulations, if I read correctly in the letter, it states basically that I can't allow anybody else to look at it and use it publicly, I guess. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that's likely a stipulation. That's a possible stipulation, yeah, for sure. Once Trevor got the report, he didn't talk to me about its contents, and I didn't ask him about it. But several months later, very recently in fact, I receive a package in the mail. A hand-printed envelope of some bulk from Jim Brown. It's July 2020, and a moment I've been putting off for weeks is here. I'm sitting here in my home in Toronto with an envelope I received from Jim Brown from Thompson, Manitoba and I'm pretty sure what's inside is Kerry Brown's autopsy.

And I've avoided even looking at this envelope. But I guess I have to open it. Okay, also in the envelope, another envelope. It's another brown envelope inside, a smaller one, different color, hasn't been opened. And there's a little handwritten note on it. It looks like Jim didn't read it. Oh, it's a printed Jim Brown printing. A little pen.

April 25th. Hello David. Hope all is well with your family. I will be brief as usual. This document was sent to me. I have no interest in it. It may help you in some small way, if not just destroy it. Your friend James Brown. Oh, that came on suddenly.

Sorry. I'll try that again. I have no interest in it. It may help you in some small way, if not just destroy it, your friend James A. Brown. People always ask me how cases affect me, and here's a perfect example. Suddenly, out of the blue, a strong emotional reaction to something seemingly minor. A reminder of how it affects families, their communities, and the police that look at these cases every day.

And here is the autopsy report. So there's a single page, what looks to be a handwritten summary, and then there's typed documents. document is six pages long and the handwritten document is one page long. Body discovered at 2 10 p.m. by two ladies riding horseback. This will be the Saturday. Here's the typed report. This typed report was written October 20th, 1986 at 1125. I'm just reading it now. I can see why Jim didn't want to read this. Describes the injuries.

Evidence of external trauma. Internal examination. Weighing the organs. That's interesting. And horrifying. Very obvious that Carrie had an incredible amount of force applied to her. Putting it as mildly as possible.

What the autopsy does confirm here is that a lot of samples were taken. And at the time in 1986 DNA was just in its infancy and I'm pretty sure that these samples were not taken with reference to DNA but were taken. Some very significant samples to me which is a good thing. Now, where are those samples? And how are they being used now is the question. It's a pity you can't unread or unsee this stuff. The autopsy starkly shows, like never before, the unmitigated violence and anger that was directed toward Carrie

by her assailants, a viciously powerful assault that, through the cold printed words here, must point toward a specific assailant profile. I will not divulge any detail of it beyond what has already been publicly revealed in media or by the police, except to say importantly that the autopsy confirms that many samples were taken from Carrie, and presumably these samples could contain the DNA of her killers. I'm going to use that information. I'll now know what they have, I hope, the RCMP as far as evidence, and I can put their feet to the fire with regards to getting more up-to-date DNA testing done. Trevor has contacted several private DNA forensic labs across North America.

Each has pledged that they will help the RCMP if they're contacted by them. The issue of some of the DNA being mixed from the different assailants is a major problem DNA labs have encountered from the beginning. But now new techniques developed by these private labs could be of assistance. And it can kind of help paint a picture of how many individuals might have been involved, and especially if they collect DNA from, you know, her body and, you know, whatever they may have found under her fingernails. Like, all that DNA tells a story, eh? Armed with what he knows from the autopsy,

Trevor decides to write a letter to RCMP Commissioner Brenda Luckey to ask for her personal intervention into the case. The letter, I don't know how quickly this all moves along now that... In his letter, Trevor asks for a comprehensive investigation and follow-up into the phone call Marnie received in the early morning hours of Friday, October 17, 1986, and he also asks for an open discussion about DNA and the viability of modern options available to the RCMP. On May 28, 2020, Trevor received a single-page typed reply from Assistant Commissioner Jane

McClatchy, the Commanding Officer of D Division in Winnipeg. In that letter, McClatchy states that regarding the phone call, a complete investigation and follow-up has been done, both at the time of the initial investigation and again recently. The caller's identity is known and a statement has been taken. Further, the caller's DNA does not match any sample on this investigation. Investigators have exhausted all avenues regarding this information. This information directly contradicts what we heard from investigators on the Brown case and from Marnie, who read the file and who spoke over several years to officers who said they had also read the file. Marnie, you've read this letter that

Trevor got back from the Assistant Commissioner Jane McClatchy? Yeah. So, I guess the first question is, how did they know the identity of the caller? So, I was not interviewed. There was nothing written down in the file about what I had passed on or anything like that. So I'm kind of perplexed by that, as well as when John Toast says, I don't know anything about it. John is adamant that he never heard anything about it. If he did, he would have done something about it.

And years later, when Urbanowski had the file and was going through it, he never saw anything in the file. Urbanowski was a key RCMP investigator who helped solve the Helen Betty Osborne case and who was brought into the Brown case to review the file. He told me that mention of a phone call in the Brown file was not something he recalled. So that says to me, number one, I was not interviewed, no statement or anything else was taken from me. Number two, that tape was never confiscated and held because it would be the real tape, not a copy of the tape, if it ever had to go to court. And Bob Urbanovsky never saw anything like that in the file. That tape was not moved. I mean, if they took a copy of it, they would have taken the original reel as well.

So I think it's odd, especially with Urbanowski saying that he didn't see it years down the road, he never saw anything. If there was information that was taken initially at the get-go, at the beginning of the investigation, it would have been in that file. Bob Urbanovsky would have, I'm sure, noticed it. You know, that's not just something, what color is a car? How many people years down the road are going to remember what color that car was in a file? Somebody saying that they killed someone when nobody knew that that person was, you know, murdered, that surely is something that, you know, people are going to remember.

When John Toast says, no, you know, I didn't know anything about this, when I know that he did, because I told him. You know, when that happens, and then you have headquarters saying, oh yes, it was investigated. It's just, I don't think that there's much honesty coming from anything here, I really don't. John Toast said to me that he did not investigate the call, and never heard about it. It is a possibility that Toast forgot about what Marnie says she told him. Could it also be possible someone else investigated it and neither Toast nor Dennis Heald, the two in charge of the investigation, knew about it?

I recall John Toast saying he left the Thompson detachment about two years after Carrie was killed. Does that suggest that the call might have been looked into two years later after Toast left? The person you talked to on the phone and held the phone out so that they could listen to it from Norway House, the member there, didn't recognize the voice the day after you got it. So how are they going to recognize the voice two years later

from a recording that who knows where it is like it's just there's too many questions and that reel to reel with the original recording that would be reused after a few months that's not as though that is sitting down there you know in a two-year span and it's still sitting in some you know place of constant attachment it's been bulk erased and reused it's not there so you know where did they get it from um if the member um identified this voice miraculously he has a tape he's up close listening to the tape he knows you know what the voice sounds like who it belongs to um i don't know to me it's it really doesn't make any sense because they would need that tape in order to do that they couldn't go up to him even a year after the fact oh yeah you remember

that voice you listened to you know on the phone phone when you were talking to Marnie. Who do you think it is? Well, he's not going to, because he didn't know at the time. Okay, so then who did they talk to? And did they take their DNA then and now? You know, even reading into that, you know, that one sentence, further the caller's DNA does not match any sample on this investigation. Well, if they have mixed DNA, did they get that sorted out?

And my biggest thing is the fact that you could have had, let's just throw it out there, you could have had four people out there. You could have had two where their DNA, where they actually had done something to Carrie and their DNA you know was at the scene or on her body you could have had two people standing back not committing the actual fault but absolutely being present so you know that to me you know I mean just just thinking about that scenario is this guy that called the fear in his voice. You know, we've talked about it before, David. I mean, this was somebody who was terrified of being, you know, being caught.

And he obviously had some sort of feeling that what happened here was wrong. I have to talk to somebody about it. So he could have been a bystander, but he could have been there. So just to throw that out there and say that the caller's DNA does not match, does that matter? Now, Marty, your caller did identify as saying, I just killed someone, right? Yes. Yeah. Which would imply

that they did have hands on, physically on Carrie. That's what that would imply to me. Unless their conscience was so guilty that they watched other people murder her in their mind's eye. Yeah, they essentially killed her because they watched her be murdered. That's possible too, I guess. Could be. I mean, you know,

could have had, you know, hand in holding her down, but his DNA was not on her, right? Or was never collected. Was never collected. Right. There's just so many different things that are going on here,

and I think that just opens up the door for more questions. Weird. My first initial reaction was weird and yes I went back to Reddit a second time and like they've identified the caller and they've cleared them of any involvement in this investigation and through DNA and I thought how the hell did he do that? So when I first learned about the tape, phone call, my contractor reached out to Janet Merrill. But when I told Janet, she got mad at me and scolded me for contacting her and I was actually about it. But when I told her about it, I told her, you need to go find that phone call.

That phone call is in the file, Janet. You need to go find it. We need to deploy it right across the fucking province, man. Let everyone hear it loud and clear. You know, Trevor, I feel because I was a part of that organization for so many years, I really feel like I have to say I feel really bad for you that that tone and you being told that you should not have talked to someone in my house was absolutely wrong. You have the right to talk to any detachment, any member, anywhere about what's happened to your family and try and come up with some answers. That's your right.

And you shouldn't be told that you shouldn't have done that and be scolded like a child. I mean, I'm sorry, but that one bothers me. So just regarding the collar, for me, since I got a CMP, prove it. Prove it. Prove you found the collar. I don't know if RCMP found the person who called Marnie in those early morning hours, nor do I know what RCMP are doing with the samples they collected from the Stable Road crime scene. Marnie says she played the call for a Norway House RCMP member when it came in.

Could that member have independently investigated the caller at the time without telling anyone or including it in the investigative file. I sent the RCMP a letter about all this, but they didn't have answers to my questions and refused to tell me anything more. What I do know is that Carrie's murder happened 34 years ago, and I also know that Jim's health is failing. An infusion of renewed cooperation and trust could do a lot to move not only Carrie's case toward justice, but also help her family reconcile with itself and with its terrible loss. Confronting the truth and ourselves is as important as getting into a courtroom. The process of solving is as important as the solution.

Trevor and Jim and I will continue to do what we can to follow up on tips and try to get the conversation going. Someone knows who killed Carrie Brown, and they probably need to talk as much as we need to hear them. You've been listening to a Season 5 Extra episode, Spread the Word. If you have information on the murder of Carrie Brown, email us at sks at cbc.ca or contact us anonymously using CBC's SecureDrop page. Check our Facebook and Twitter pages to see Trevor's letter to the RCMP and their replies. Just search for Someone Knows Something. You can also catch up on past seasons of Someone Knows Something

at cbc.ca slash sks or wherever you get your podcasts. Someone Knows Something is hosted, written, and produced by me, David Ridgen. The series is produced by Cecil Fernandez, Eunice Kim, Chris Oak, and executive producer Arif Noorani. Our theme song is Thompson Girl by the Tragically Hip.

Thompson Girl Stranded at the unique motel Thompson Girl Winter fighter shot on the cars well Looks like Christmas at 55 degrees. This latitude weakens my knees. Thompson girl.