Someone Knows Something - The Next Call with David Ridgen: Episode 2 in the case of Terrie Dauphinais

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

“Homefront”: David digs into the original investigation into Terrie’s murder. Was anything missed? And what did one of the children see?

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Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. This is a CBC Podcast. Sue, I think last time I talked to you in person, it was in November 2015 on the island behind the Parliament buildings. And then there was an arrest. And so maybe just catch me up, I guess, from that point. Yeah, so we got a call on May 22nd in 2018 because we relocated back to Calgary, right? Sue Martin, Terry Dauphiné's mother, talking to me from Alberta.

She's updating me on a break in Terry's case. for 3,000 so many days. And she said yes. Over 16 years after Terry was found dead in her house, her husband, Ken Dauphiney, has been arrested. He's been of interest in this whole process. So how did it come that Ken would become arrested after so many years and not talking? They got him by the Mr. Big Sting. I'm David Ridgen, and welcome to The Next Call, Episode 2,

In the Case of Terry Dauphiney. Maybe you guys want to go collect all the shit out of the rooms. Because I don't. I'm pretty sure I don't want to go by there. This is Ken Dauphiney being surreptitiously recorded in an undercover operation, a few seconds from the weeks and weeks of it. It ends with Ken's arrest on May 21st, 2018. For five months, police had undertaken several undercover scenarios, all revolving around Ken. They called it Operation Homefront.

Investigations like this, involving undercover officers playing various dramatic roles, are sometimes referred to as Mr. Big. They set up a stage as a pretend organized crime and he was willing to join what he thought was a criminal organization. In these operations, the phony organizations that suspects are convinced to join almost invariably undertake fake crimes. The fake crimes provide the suspect with money and move them through stature and trust-building exercises that are intended to condition them to be more open to talking about what is suspected to be their real crimes. Eventually, a wrench is thrown into the works

where the organization is threatened by the presence of the suspect. The suspect is then brought before a boss or Mr. Big Figure to confess their past crimes. The allegedly well-connected boss would then help to provide alibis or clear the suspect somehow

so that they could then continue operating in the organization they'd learned to trust. He was buying fake guns, running taps, you know, like the credit card fraud things. He was in Ottawa, Montreal, Thunder Bay, all that kind of stuff. The organization that Ken was brought into supposedly dealt in supplying point-of-sale credit card swipe machines to various merchants, and the group was also portrayed to be involved in the sale of firearms. The Mr. Big concluded when Ken was arrested and charged with the second-degree murder of his wife, Terry. Although Ken never expressly says,

I killed Terry on the Mr. Big tapes I have heard, police must have felt they had enough. But then something went wrong. I don't know if you heard, but it's on a stay and there's no longer restrictions on this case. Okay, so they stayed the case and it stayed for a year and then that's it, right? And he's free. He's free to go wherever he wants to go, do whatever he wants to do. When the Crown, the prosecution side in Canadian courts, directs a stay to be entered, it discontinues the proceedings and the accused is no longer in any legal jeopardy.

However, it is possible for the Crown to revive those same charges at any time within a 12-month period, in which case the whole process can continue again. Sue waited about two months after the stay began before calling me, mulling over what she wanted to do, how she wanted to direct the burning emotions her daughter's murder ignites within her. So you've been sitting on this since then and thinking maybe that something would reverse or there'd be some hope of change? I've been sitting on this going in my head, how do I do this? Please, Creator, show me how I'm going to do this.

And you know what? Last night I sat down with my husband having dinner, and he smiled and he said, I love it when you get riled right up, when you're fired right up. He said, it's so beautiful. And I'm looking, and I'm thinking, oh, my gosh. And he said, baby, I'm behind you. Whatever you want to do, you do it. I'll send you all the documents, and you can read it.

You're going to shake your head, buddy. You're really, really going to shake your head. Take care, David. Okay, you too. Bye. Since this call with Sue, I've been gathering recordings from this undercover Operation Homefront and reading documents from it and the following court proceedings to try to figure out the puzzle of all that happened.

But before I go there... Oh hi, is that Leah? I want to go back to the original investigation into Terry's murder and try talking to some actual witnesses. Constable Leah Barber. She and her partner Constable Mike So I've got like 34 years of policing. Constable Leah Barber. She and her partner Constable Mike Huskins were first on the scene for Calgary Police that day. They were working in District 7 on the northwest side of the city when the call came in. Barber is now Inspector Barber, much more a senior within the investigative arm of Calgary Police Service, and she's agreed to tell me what she remembers. My partner and I were the ones to get the call, so we were the first ones at the scene. We drive up and there's two women out front and one's crying and the other one's standing there looking kind of awkward.

The woman standing is a neighbor. Awkward because she's trying to comfort the crying woman on the ground. Terry's stepsister, Heather Martin, aged 22 at the time. Heather had recently moved to Calgary from Ottawa and, up until about a month before, had lived in the same house Terry was found in. When Heather moved in, Ken was still there with Terry and the children, but then he had been kicked out after the arm-twisting incident. Heather remained with Terry and the kids for a few more weeks and then found a basement apartment to live in about 25 minutes away by car. Back to Inspector Barber in Terry's driveway. It's about 10.45am on April 29th, 2002. And then we got out of the car and as we walk up, she's saying, my sister's in the house.

And she might have said, I think she's dead or something anyway. And she's saying my sister's in the house and she might have said i think she's dead or something anyway and she's bawling bawling bawling and so it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize something bad has occurred and so we went right away around the back we asked the woman consoling if she would stay here for a minute she said yes and we went around the back and and again these are decisions you have to make at the time because i you know do you stay there and keep continuity of her or do you go and check on the welfare of the person in the house and so we chose the latter so you go into the house then what so you're in a room a kitchen yeah i come into the kitchen and it's one of those kind of a great room, you know, but straight ahead is the front door.

And so through the window, we could see a body laying by the front door. And so there wasn't a lot of coverage that morning as far as policing. So, you know, we chose to go in to make sure that like just to check on the welfare of this body I mean if she was still alive we'd want to get EMS there so we go in but we have to be careful because of course we don't know if the offender's still in the house so we clear the living room kitchen to get to her and then it was evident she was not alive. She was half-dressed, and she was bluish, and wasn't breathing. Did you go into the basement yourself? Nope, because she was blocking the basement door.

So we never went down there, because we knew he couldn't be down there, otherwise she wouldn't have been in the position she was in. So at that point, we would have normally backed out of the house and waited for homicide but in this case when we heard the kids upstairs that kind of prompted us to go further into the house and so it was one of those decisions you have to make at the time where you go okay whoever the offender is could be still in here do we go up do we not do we wait for backup like that type of thing right but again it's part of our job right to uh put yourself at risk so we chose to go up and check on the welfare of the children because

you could tell there was at least two cries so we go upstairs we clear the house as we're going and then we found the little girl first the first bedroom and then the baby that was in the closet in the master bedroom in a car seat and then we went back and found the two-year-old in his bedroom and so now we just need to hold the scene because we knew it was a homicide at that point what does it mean to you that the kids were all locked in the rooms upstairs? Inspector Barber is careful to stress that the following is just her opinion. Well, I mean, there could be a thousand reasons, right? Maybe the mom locked them in there when whoever it was came to the house.

Maybe that's what she does every night yeah i don't know but if it had been a stranger attack the offender either would have probably gotten rid of them too or not cared whether they were running through the house or not you know what i'm saying he she would have just left but in this case to have each of the kids sort of the two locked in their bedrooms and the one in a car seat so he was safe speaks to that whoever was in the house gave a shit. Did you ever hear or do you maybe know anything from your personal knowledge about

the time of death? No. Nope. Did you touch Terry to feel for her pulse? Nope. And did you see any blood other than blue under the skin? Nope. Did you notice anything about what was around the house inside?

The little girl's room was pretty normal, little girl's room. And then the master bedroom was pretty disheveled, kind of clothes everywhere and the bed was unmade. And the little boy, the two-year-old's room, the only thing in it was a mattress on the floor. And did the kids seem distressed? Well, they were all crying because, of course, they were awake and nobody came to get them. But the two-year-old and the baby wouldn't have known anything anyway. And both of them had poopy diapers and stuff, right? So once I cleaned them up, they were fine.

But the little girl, was she distressed? No. It was strange because she never asked where mommy or daddy was. And I remember thinking that was really strange. Because I think my son would have. Because he was the same age as her. When you see a stranger at your door, and especially one in uniform, you think the first question would be, where's mommy? I want my mommy or something along that line, right?

Barbara sits with the children alone for about two hours while she waits for the response team. I ask her if any of the children spoke to her. The little girl said a couple of things. The little boy was only about maybe two, and then the other baby was a baby, so they couldn't speak. So the little girl did say a few things, but it was I knew better because I was senior enough so it's just like kind of shut her down each time she tried to say something because we needed it audio videoed because otherwise it wouldn't be accepted

into court we knew that so yeah it's really important that the first sort of rendition of the story is on tape because kids are very malleable if you're not careful. Do you remember any particular thing that was said by the girl? She said something about daddy was mad and then she said something about a blue flashlight in her mouth but I didn't know what that meant because again a kid's descriptions are very different from adults vision and so I just left it and so I think child abuse did inquire about that particular statement later but I don't know what they got I was actually very careful in this case not to take my own evidence so I didn't ask to see the child interview and I didn't read the transcripts

of anything else that happened in court because it's easy to even mess up your own memory of things if you're not careful. When children's services arrived, Barbara says she helped remove the children from the house by covering the two older kids' heads with a blanket. Because we had to go down the stairs right by the mom. And the little baby I wasn't terribly worried about because I didn't figure he'd probably remember anything anyway. But both the two-year-old and then the little girl, I think she was pretty close to being five.

I carried out with sort of a blanket over both of us so that they wouldn't see their mom. And that was the end of my part in the whole thing. Almost two decades later, following the undercover Mr. Big operation, Inspector Barber would be called before Ken Dauphiney's preliminary inquiry. Her testimony is similar to what she tells me on the phone with a couple of important additions. At the time, Barber had written that the daughter stated,

Daddy locked me in here because I kept coming out, referring to being locked in her bedroom. He locked me in and then took Mommy away. Also in court, one of Dauphiney's lawyers, James McLeod, in cross-examining Inspector Barber, points out that as Barber is taking the daughter out of the house with the blanket on her head, she tells her that there had been an issue between her mother and father. This is before the daughter would be interviewed by Calgary police later on video. The daughter, now an adult, was in the court to bear witness to Barbara's testimony, but Barbara says the two never acknowledged each other.

Yeah, when I gave evidence, like they allowed the kids to be in the courtroom to hear the evidence. And I was surprised because, first of all, I didn't feel that they should be hearing it as a parent. The daughter herself would be testifying because the prosecution hoped that her statements at the age of four and a half, and now as an adult, would form one of the main pillars in their case against Ken Dauphiney. And I'll go through some of it now. Since the daughter's identity is protected, her name and voice cannot be used, but her statements and interview transcripts can. What follows is a curated summary of the available transcripts from the spring of 2002,

edited for repetition and clarity, with the aim of maintaining the accuracy of the daughter's intention. In assessing the transcripts, each statement could be discussed in great depth for what it might mean or imply. Some of the daughter's statements, though, are crystal clear. For example, in the first interview with Calgary detectives and a representative from social services present, the daughter says, Daddy came so Mommy could go shopping. This one short statement delivers a lot of information, and it raises questions when we compare it to Ken's timeline statements. Recall that Terry left home around 9.30 p.m. for the Safeway

and began her return around 10 p.m. as recorded by security cameras. But Ken initially tells police that the kids were already in their rooms in bed before he arrived at Terry's around 9 p.m. and that they're in bed at 7 usually. Later, Ken changes his timeline again and suggests that he was there to eat with and then put the kids to bed sometime after 10 p.m. when Terry would have arrived back from grocery shopping. Other statements from the daughter are longer or are repeated and may require a bit more interpretation. The daughter speaks first in this back and forth with one of the detectives. I couldn't go to sleep because I saw my daddy. It was dark. You couldn't see him? What was he doing?

He got, I think, I thought he was a bad dad. Oh, and how come? Because he was talking like the animal monster, the cookie monster. Oh, and what did he say? Don't know. Don't know? And that's okay if you don't. He talked really nasty. and what made him nasty he said get in your room but my lights weren't working but then the light came again okay and what happened when you went in your room i cried for my mom, and did you hear anything? What did you hear?

That somebody talk and somebody scream and cry. And what did you hear? I heard my mama crying and screaming. Okay, and then what happened? And then my mom and my daddy were gone and it was all lost. He looked like a bad guy. Who looked like a bad guy? My dad.

So when you said to me that your dad was being like a monster, like a cookie monster, where were you when he was being like that? In my room and locked up so I couldn't go potty. Okay, and then who locked the door? The cookie monster. The lights not working seems to match with the blinking clocks in the home that signified a power disruption, one that police verified happened only in Terry's house. The social worker, Ruby Long Mueller, steps in from time to time on the conversation with Terry and Ken's daughter. My mom was sad. Was she sad? How do you know your mama was sad? My daddy didn't love her.

Why do you say that? Because he was gone and he was kind of mad at her. Why was he mad at her? Because he was angry. The flashlight Inspector Barber heard the daughter mention comes up a few times, and police try to get more information about it. The daughter says her dad had it, that it was in her mother's mouth, and that her dad took it with him. Whether there was a flashlight or something else is unknown. One of the detectives tries to focus the daughter's attention on the downstairs. What was downstairs? Dad and my mom. And your mom? Yeah, yeah, because she was going to get dead. Okay, she was going to get dad? No, dead. Dead. Oh, and what do you mean by that? Well, she was going to get dead. And how did that happen? Well, it was, I don't know, it was quite

early. It was quite early. Okay, where was the last place that you saw your mom? I didn't see her anywhere. You didn't see her anywhere? She was up in heaven. And then from the daughter, she just died without me. Oh, hey there. I'm Andrew Fung, and I want to tell you about my new series with Via Rail. Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard Via Rail's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze.

No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy, and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences. For your next trip, do yourself a favor, skip traffic and take Via Rail. Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. business, we speak the same language you do, business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business.

Following his arrest after the undercover operation, the preliminary inquiry into Ken Dauphiney's second-degree murder charge commences on August 19, 2019 in Calgary, and his daughter is the first witness called, just over 17 years after her mother's murder. Crown prosecutors are Ken McCaffrey and Adam Drew. McCaffrey asks if the daughter remembers talking to police on the night her mother was killed. She says she doesn't. They play the video of the first interview and McCaffrey asks if the daughter is able to identify herself and she answers, she has the same name as me. I don't remember that happening though, so I can't say I know that that happened. Documents show that the daughter was well prepared for her appearance in court and had viewed the videos three times, once with police, once alone, and then during the preliminary inquiry. The day she testified on the court,

she basically said, they say that's me, but I don't think it's me. The video from the second interview is played and this time the daughter confirms it was her. McCaffrey asks if she's able to tell the court the things that you said in the two video statements to the police, but she says she doesn't remember anything from the interviews. McCaffrey tries again, asking the daughter, what do you remember about the incident where your mom passed away? She answers, I just remember someone being in my house and my mom sitting on the stairs. The defense, Belford Dare, cross-examines He focuses on her memory of the cookie monster Dare asks if her father ever pretended to be the cookie monster

She says no Then McCaffrey, the prosecutor on Redirect, asks Are you able to tell us anything you remember about the night that your mom passed away? She replies, no, I have no recollection. I have like those two memories, but I don't know when, what days, or what. And that's it for the daughter's questioning. Anyways, I blame this on the Crown, because the Crown didn't argue anything, didn't object to anything. The court under Justice Rosemary Nation ultimately ruled that the daughter's briefer statements

to Inspector Barber are admissible as evidence in a trial, but that the daughter's much more verbose statements in the two police interviews would not be admissible. This is when the prosecution's case begins to unravel. Justice Nation says there are issues with procedural reliability, a concern about some leading questions, none of which I included in what I read, and also refers to some contradictory or confusing statements made by the daughter. Shortly after the release of episode one in Terry's case, two people came forward to me who said they knew Ken in the time after Terry was murdered. One had a relationship with Ken and the other a connection with him through that. Both of them say they remember the daughter, telling them details

about what she remembered from the night Terry was murdered. Both of these people agree to appear here with their voices altered to help protect their identity and that of Terry and Ken's daughter. The first speaker refers to a conversation she says she had with Terry and Ken's daughter. She and I spoke a little bit about her mom, because I always try to encourage her to talk about her mom. And she did tell me she remembered being in the house and she heard a voice. She thought it was her dad's, but he sounded like he was talking like the Cookie Monster, is what she told me. You remember, so she told you that she remembers her dad, Ken, talking like the Cookie Monster on the night that Terry was murdered.

She said she heard a voice and she thought it was her dad's, but it sounded funny like he was talking like the Cookie Monster, is what she said. Did she place it on that night that Terry had... Yeah. While the daughter said in court that she didn't remember anything from that night, the recollection of these two sources is pretty clear. The other person who came forward also recalls this conversation, which would have taken place almost a decade after Terry's murder.

Yeah, I remember that conversation. I think it was one of those nights where we just couldn't sleep. So I asked, like, what is going on there? Like, what do you remember from that night? And she thought it was her dad, but it just sounded like someone was like the cookie monster. And I remember she had like that door locky thing, you know, like with the kids that couldn't open the door at night. Like somebody like closed the door on her and she heard that voice okay and do you remember

telling you that yeah have you read that not at all i don't like reading about it i actually kind of uh i'm still dealing with a lot like i don't think about it, and I don't really... Coming forward with information is a crucial part of trying to solve cold cases. Anyone with information is encouraged to do what these two people did. I asked Sue Martin what kind of contact she has had with her granddaughter, or if they spoke during the inquiry, where they both sat in the same courtroom. Okay, let me read you this. I got this two years ago in February. I found her on Facebook and I found her on Instagram.

And I wrote a nice note, right? Like, I'm your grandmother. You look so much like your mom. You're beautiful, right? This is the text she sent to me. And this was after the arrest. Sue, I don't know if you're under the impression that I haven't been getting your messages, but I have.

Not only from you on Facebook and now from Instagram, but also from the police and the social worker. I was under the impression that they all told you that my brothers and I want nothing to do with you. Clearly they have not believed them. Let me make it clear. We want nothing to do with you. Please take your fake love and your prayers elsewhere

and save that scam for someone who can actually fool you. I will never acknowledge you as more than an egg donor for my mom. Have a nice life. Whoa. Yeah. And Ken was never, ever on the stand to be asked the question, did you murder Terry?

I think it was a tough one right from the get-go, right? Because basically the only witness that we could get was this four-and-a-half-year-old girl. Back with Inspector Leah Barber. And then because Children's Services had no reason to keep the kids from him, because we couldn't lay the charge at the beginning, then the kids lived with him for the next 20 years or 15 years or whatever. And they've just listened to him and he's cut them right off from the mom's side of the family. So they believe him. And really, if he goes to jail, they have no one.

But there wasn't the evidence left behind. If it's a stranger kind of situation evidence gathering is almost easier because whatever we find in there like a fingerprint or a hair or a boot print or something shouldn't be there because it's a stranger, right? Whereas when it's a family member, if it's him, it's so much more difficult because that's his house, right? Like even though they were split and stuff. So it was a tough one right from the get-go. DNA from the scene tested at the time and in more modern circumstances ultimately showed DNA under Terry's fingernails that matched Ken Dauphiney.

But the DNA test used could not discriminate between Ken and any of his paternal male relatives, so including his two young sons. Ken says he was intimate with Terry, and cervical and vaginal wall swabs from her showed a match with Ken's DNA. There was no discernible non-familial DNA found at the scene from the samples tested noted in the documents. Well, thanks, Inspector Barber. We'll talk to you again. For sure. Talk to you later. Inspector Leah Barber, as first on scene, provides a snapshot of the beginnings of this case and her personal insights,

but I'll need more from the original investigation. Both Sue and Leah have directed me to Craig Cuthbert. I've been waiting for this interview for a little while. Good afternoon. Hi Craig, it's Dave Ridgen. Are you okay to talk now? I am, yes. Cuthbert is the officer who interviewed Ken Dauphiney citing biblical references back in 2002. His methods didn't play well at the Dauphiney inquiry. Nevertheless, he knows the case. Yeah, I left in 2003 after this case. This case was the one that sort of caused me to realize to

reevaluate what my life was doing and how I couldn't carry on the burden of this case and others. So I left homicide. Oh, really? So it was this case? Yeah, we threw everything, including the kitchen sink, at this case. And every time we would do something, it would fail or it was just unreal. We put in thousands and thousands of hours and it was all-consuming because we really knew that terrian needed to have some sort of closure but it started back on april 29th of 2002 we were called to a scene up in citadel park in calgary and that's where we found the body of Terri Ann Dauphine. And there was lots of evidence of the struggle. There was lots of evidence of things that had been changed, and I'm not going to get into specifics,

but we knew that the victim was not expecting what happened to her and that whoever did it likely had common knowledge of the lay of the land of the house and how to control access to the home and control things within the home. How did you get the sense that they knew the house? This is one of the holdbacks that we didn't release, so I'm going to just be a little cagey on that point, but they were able to disable the phones in the house.

Whoever got into the house went downstairs and turned off the power. And then that disabled the phones. The house only had radio telephones, you know, like wireless telephones. Okay, so you believe then that the power went off before the act. You think that there was that much planning involved, like that the power was shut off and then Terry was murdered. So you turn the power off, you stop communications. And where we found the phones would indicate that likely she was trying to call.

Were there other people you looked at? People from the church that were seen to pick up Carrie Ann and drive her to church, they were offered as suspects. Their alibis all proved to be rock solid. And we didn't focus on Ken as the only suspect. We had other suspects and we tried to clear them as we could. But the strongest one was, of course, Ken, because his story was filled with holes. Holes in a story are almost always connected to a suspect's timeline.

Where were they? What did the suspects say they were doing while the murder took place? Ken said in his 2002 police interview that he was at Terry's twice the day she was last seen alive. First from 9.30am to 4pm and the second time from 9pm to when he says he left at 11.30pm. It's not known from any source much of what else they may have done or said all day together beyond Ken's mention of intimacy, that according to him occurred once on his first visit, and then again just before he left in the bonus rec room on the second floor above the garage. There was nowhere to go in the back door. Okay, so front door and she was there and did you hear her lock the door or anything like that when you left?

Mm-hmm. Okay, so it sounded like the door was locked, children were asleep? Okay. like the door was locked, children were asleep. The front door was locked and children were asleep, according to Ken, when he left. After that, according to court transcripts, it is known that Ken went to his friend Thomas Zakowski's place, reportedly for about 10 minutes, close to 1 a.m. Then, after 1 a.mam until about 1.30, information coming from Ken suggests that he drives to the condo he is staying at during a separation from Terry,

owned by a woman named Fran, but he says he leaves before entering her place because he doesn't want to wake Fran by alerting her allegedly yappy dog. This trip to Fran's cannot be confirmed. Thereafter, possibly around 1.50am, Ken arrives at the basement apartment where Heather Martin lives, Terry's stepsister, and Ken stays there for the night until he goes to work in the morning, sometime between 7 and 8am. The timing of Ken's travels gives him ample window to be alone with Terry and his children. I guess I have to assume that I'm... I do, I really do. I do, Ken.

And I think you realize that, too. And the reason that... Did you ever establish in your own head a sort of window of opportunity? Obviously, Terry was still alive at 10.03 when she left the Safeway, and then it takes, say, 10, 15 minutes to drive home or whatever. So from 10.15 p.m. until, I don't know, 9 o'clock in the morning the next morning, did you ever establish sort of a window where time of death would have happened with Terry?

Yes, there was, and I can't speak to that. There is indications about when it could have happened. We strongly believe a time frame of a couple of hours where it likely did happen. Through the course of the investigation, a story comes up to suggest someone else might have murdered Terry. On Terry's last day, as the story goes, Terry took a shopping trip where she allegedly locked herself out of the car.

Terry then had to be driven home by a stranger in a van. Ken then apparently walked to the grocery store with an extra set of car keys he had and retrieved the car. A version of this story is told by Heather Martin early in the investigation and then again in the 2019 preliminary inquiry. Heather says that Terry tells her on the phone sometime earlier in the day about the keys locked in the car and the stranger. On the stand, Heather says that it was a pretty big adventure for Terry. Something odd to me here is that according to police information, Ken doesn't appear to bring up this story in his interviews with detectives in 2002 that a stranger had Terry in their vehicle on the day of her murder

I ask Cuthbert if he was ever able to verify any of the stranger's story through his investigation but he says that it was a red herring No, no, no, none of that story through his investigation, but he says that it was a red herring. No. No. No, none of that. We never could ever prove any of that segment of time definitively as to what happened. So, did the stranger's story happen? Who was the original source of the story? Why wouldn't Ken mention this when he is first arrested? And Heather, was there ever anything that made you wonder more about her?

No. I always felt of her as a future victim. Did you ever tell her that? No. She has lots that she shouldn't say. My belief was that Heather was always a pawn. That Heather, like Carrie Ann, was a vulnerable young lady that was corrupted by Ken. Because again, Ken, when he came into the family, he was brought in from a broken family and the Martins offered their home. They offered him everything.

He then started to groom Terri-Ann and then groom Heather. He's a long play player, and through investigations during this thing, it was found that these weren't the only ones that he was trying the same sort of con on or manipulation on, that he'd done it with other people and other cases that are still ongoing. So I can't say there were some indications from some of the... Ken, I've got to be very careful on this. Cuthbert can't say more on this topic. I'll have to try talking to Heather.

She lived at the home with Terry and Ken for a while, then just with Terry and the kids. Then she moved to the basement bachelor apartment where Ken stayed with her, she says, on the night of Terry's murder. And the fact that he is so insistent that Heather go back to the house to see Terry and the next morning. He repeated it two or three times in my recollection with Heather, and she made a direct point

to go there. My belief is that he wanted to have her found and recover the children, which were again locked in the bedroom. You know, if there was ever a heaven and hell, I hope that this man doesn't get to go up the stairway to heaven but takes the highway to hell. Cuthbert believes Ken manipulated Heather into discovering Terry's body. Does Ken talk about this in the Mr. Big operation? What happened that police felt they could arrest him after the sting and then, like the daughter's statement, have it all fall apart in court? And what about the evidence from a tattoo artist

who secretly recorded Ken in her shop? Did they ever have any other stuff yet? Well, aside from my 37 hours, I spent in the lock up there. The next call is hosted, written, and produced by me, David Ridgen. The series is also produced by Hadil Abdel-Nabi. Sound design by Evan Kelly. Our senior producer is Cecil Fernandez. Emily Connell is our digital producer, and our story editor is Chris Oak.

The executive producer of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani. To see images from the investigation, find us on Facebook and Instagram at CBC Podcasts, go to cbc.ca slash podcasts.