Someone Knows Something - The Next Call with David Ridgen: Episode 3 in the case of Terrie Dauphinais

Episode Date: October 1, 2024

“Panic Mode”: An undercover police investigation appears to go south. The clock ticks on a criminal trial.

Oh, hey there! I'm Andrew Fung and I want to tell you about my new series with ViaRail. Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard ViaRail's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze. No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences. For your next trip, do yourself a favor. Skip traffic and take Via Rail.

Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. This is a CBC Podcast. We were standing on the deck and then we saw Heather go to the back door. And that's when my friend said, oh, that's odd. I've never seen anybody around there. And she left. And then I think she came back to the back door again. And she must have gone in there.

And then she just came out screaming. Julie Wood was visiting a friend on the morning that Terry Dauphiney's body was discovered, April 29, 2002. The deck she was on looked out onto the back of Terry's house, and the woman she describes seeing is Terry's stepsister Heather Martin. Julie refers to notes she made at the time and says she's never revealed these details publicly since the day Terry was discovered. She saw it and she asked us to call for help. And what was her state of mind? She was just really, really upset. She was crying, she was screaming, and we were bewildered. And just because of that, and we were, I think she

was just saying, call 911 or call the police or call, you know. According to Julie, she ran to join Heather close to Terry's house and yelled back at her friend to call 911. Then, Julie says, she tried to console Heather as they waited for police, but that Heather kept going in and out of Terry's house. Did you understand why she was going in and out of the house? Um, I think she was just really upset. Julie confides that she too went into the house with Heather on one of these occasions, that she saw Terry on the floor in the front hallway, and that she could hear kids upstairs. And how about your friend? Did she know terry was there knowledge of that family

that was one thing she commented on was how that she said she'd never seen she said the curtains were always closed she couldn't believe there were three children living in that house is what she told me the police arrive and begin questioning Heather, Julie and her friend. But Julie says Heather had already told her much of what she would tell the police. Did you recall Heather saying anything about who she thought or what she thought might have happened? Um. Um, she asked me, she said, why, why are they asking me so many questions about Ken? So I think that she thought that they were pointing their fingers towards Ken and she said, why?

And the police, can you remember any of the questions they were asking? They were asking, where was Ken? Did he live there? And, you know, I think that he was at work and he was delivering, like he had a truck. And like, were they together? Were they separated? Right? It's worth noting here that in his 2002 Calgary police interviews, Ken Dauphiney never denied or admitted to killing Terry. Did Heather say where Ken had been the night before? Did she give any kind of a statement about having seen Ken the night before or anything like that?

Yes. I absolutely remember because it was a little bit of a story, right? And she had told me this when we were waiting. And however it came up was that Ken had been at her place the night before. Ken

stayed at her place the night before and he didn't want to go back to the place that he was staying because there was a dog and he didn't want to wake, the dog would bark and then he'd wake up his friend. And that was, that was the story. Julie also says that Heather told her that Ken and Terry were separated. I have heard questions from people who were suspicious

of the relationship between Ken and Heather. Crown lawyer McCaffrey told me that he expected challenges to Heather's reliability. And I wonder if anything might have stood out to Julie. Anything strike you as odd? I mean, other than the fact that someone was dead in the next door house. And the whole situation. With Heather, I felt a little... I was having... I don't know. I didn't know.

I questioned whether she was genuine, I guess. I'm David Ridgen, and welcome to The Next Call, episode three in the case of Terry Dauphiney. Hello. Hello. I just received a call from this number, which I thought was really strange. Oh, hi. Is your name Heather? Yes.

Hi, Heather. My name's David Ridgen. Thanks for calling me back. I know who you are. I'm like, what the? This is Ridgen calling me. I've reached Heather Martin in Western Canada. In addition to discovering Terry's body, Heather could hold some valuable information about the case as Terry's stepsister and someone who lived with Terry and Ken for her first few months in Calgary. I listened to at least three, four seasons so far of what you've done, David.

She called me back after seeing my name on her phone. The kids are firmly in the dad is not guilty camp. So as you can imagine, it's a delicate balance. If you maybe can infer what you, you know, you're not a dumb person. So I hope you can understand. Like, it's so complicated. I ask about the last conversation Heather had with Terry. Heather says it was on the phone and that they talked about Terry locking her keys in the car at the grocery store,

and then being driven home by a stranger. It's a story Heather says she got directly from Terry during daylight hours, and could help construct Terry's final moments, and possibly Ken's timeline too. I remember Terry telling it. And the reason I remember her telling it is because she was kind of laughing about it and like it was nothing, but it was really weird for her to have done that. And you're sure that this was during the day that she called you and told you this story? I'm sure it was during the day. I'm sure it was early. Ret. I'm sure it was early.

Retired investigator Craig Cuthbert confirms to me later that Terry took two shopping trips that day, one during the day and the other at night where she appears on camera. It is unclear on which shopping trip, if any, that Terry might have gotten a ride home, but Ken uses both timings and statements he makes to police after 2002, placing himself into the story in the afternoon and at night. A nighttime ride home by a stranger would bring that person closer to the time Terry was murdered,

and introduced the possibility of another suspect. Cuthbert maintains that his investigation found that the stranger's story was a red herring rather than one involving any viable suspect, and a confidential source who knew Ken in the years following Terry's murder has recently told me about another version of this story she says she heard from Ken. But in this iteration, he says that Terry actually walked home at night and doesn't mention a stranger or a van at all. I move into talking to Heather about the time Terry was murdered and her recollection of Ken coming over to her apartment. So it was like a bachelor then? Is that what, like a single room?

Yeah, it was just a room that on one side I had my bed, and I want to say it was like a single bed, and on the other side of the room I had like a couch and a TV. Okay, and Ken slept on the couch then? Mm-hmm. And was that a regular thing? Would he come and stay with you or in that place often? He'd done that a few times, yeah.

Heather repeats the story she told Julie Wood that Ken allegedly said he was afraid a yappy dog at his condo would awaken his roommate Fran, and so that's why he chose to sleep at Heather's instead. According to our estimates based on court documents, Ken would have arrived at Heather's sometime after 1am on April 29th, 2002. Heather remembers Ken arriving earlier, but agrees it is possible that he could have shown up at her house on this

later timing. This and other details have raised questions about the nature of Heather's relationship to Ken before and after Terry was murdered. Do you think people felt that you might have been sort of close to Ken? Everybody asked that. That's another thing I didn't understand right away. But I didn't realize that the general thought was that this was something Ken and I had hatched out together or something like that. That never even occurred to me. And it didn't occur to me that I would be under suspicion either until many years later when one of the detectives met with me to say, well, we've finally taken the phone taps off your phone. So your phone was tapped? My phones were tapped, yeah. And you were under suspicion, and you think that it's because

people thought you and Ken were having a relationship, like a close relationship. Well, again, it just didn't occur to me. Like, why? Before Terry was murdered, our relationship was buddies. You know, like, joking, stupid. Like, it always had been. Like, Ken has always been funny and goofy.

And that was what we had, right? Like it was familiar as a relationship that had existed for a very long time. So I have heard that Terry did think that and that she expressed that to people and that really surprised me. So. Did you ever get the feeling that Ken wanted a relationship with you or was sort of trying to Ken wanted a relationship with you? Or was sort of trying to get going a relationship with you in some way? No. Not, I mean, not more than what was there already. Right.

Like a platonic friendship. Well, after Terry died, we didn't just stay platonic friendship? Well, after Terry died, we didn't just stay platonic friends, but that is another. So after Terry died, you did have a relationship with Ken. Is that what I just heard? We did have a sexual relationship.

According to my research, it's never been reported that Heather admitted to having a sexual relationship with Ken Dauphiney. Former investigator Craig Cuthbert called Heather a future victim and suggested his theory that Heather had been engineered into discovering Terry's body by Ken. Craig Cuthbert also remembers that it was stressed beyond just a casual conversation that Heather go check on the children and Terry and to let Ken know when she did. But Heather doesn't remember it that way. Instead, she says she was supposed to stay over with Terry the night before, but that those plans fell through she says she was supposed to stay over with Terry the night before, but that those plans fell through, so they made arrangements to do something the next day. I asked Heather about the timeline of her romantic relationship with Ken.

I don't know the timeline. Like, I don't even really remember when the first time was, for sure. So, and again, that was one of those things that just like a natural progression. And it was definitely after Terry was murdered that you guys got together? Yeah, we never had anything like romantic or sexual before. We had a goofy kind of sibling friendship.

Heather herself says that 19 years later, she is still conflicted about Ken and whether or not he was involved in Terry's murder. She says she doesn't want to say anything that might harm the tenuous relationship she may have with Terry and Ken's three children. Heather says she currently has something akin to a no-contact order with Ken, though it is unclear to me if this might be an official order or something she has put in place herself. I mean, it's very difficult. Like, it's so challenging.

I can't, like, I can't reconcile that person. And I can't reconcile that the person, that Ken that I know, is the same person that the police are saying. Did you ever talk to Ken about this, about Terry, about the murder? Did you ever try to address him or construct a conversation with Ken about this? I remember, I want to say, you know, did I ask him about it? I think I asked him, you know, if he had anything to do with it. You know, are you involved? Did you kill Terry?

Do you remember what his reply would have been? I know he said no. Like, that's not a note. I'm more, how did I ask that question? Did I say something bluntly? I don't remember exactly how I phrased it or what I said I just remember asking him if he was involved or did you kill Terry and you know the firm no was enough for me. We talk for a long while but it's evident that Heather herself has struggled with

her connection to Ken and that it plays with her memories of the aftermath of it all, and she's sought counseling, she says, to help her sort it out. Something that doesn't help is that in the aftermath of Terry's murder, Heather says she was alone in Calgary and that the people who were mostly available to support her were Ken's family, his mother Joanne, and his siblings. She says she spent a lot of time with them and that they would speculate together on what might have happened to Terry. In the 2019 preliminary inquiry, a line of questioning arose about Heather having taken Terry's diamond engagement ring out of the house in the immediate period after her murder. Heather says she intended

to give the ring to Terry and Ken's daughter when the time was right. In stories like that of the ring, what's unsaid is as important sometimes as what is said, but I don't get the impression Heather is being deliberately deceptive here. She was 22 at the time, and it seems to me like she has in the least changed her perspective on Ken quite a bit.

All right, Heather, thanks so much. We'll talk again soon. Okay. Take care, David. Bye-bye. Bye. We always felt there wasn't something quite right with Heather. Heather needed to be the center of attention. Like, her behavior was always a little outlandish. This is Carrie Pearl Martin, Terry's biological sister. Heather, before she moved in with Terry, had been living in Ottawa

and had gone through a pretty traumatic breakup with her boyfriend. So Terry offered her to go live there to heal and rest. When Heather left Ottawa and went and stayed with Terry, the things, the issues started right away. I don't think Heather ended up living there for more than a couple of months. Terry believed they were having an affair and asked that Heather leave and asked Ken to leave because of it and was also gearing up just to come home closer to her family because of abuse. She said, I think Heather and Ken are having an affair. This, along with the arm twisting incident and the other bruising incidents Craig Cuthbert says police documented,

suggests at least a significant rising of tensions between Ken and Terry. When I think about Terry, it's still hard, you know, all these years later. When I think about my sister, I think about how vibrant she was. How happy to be she was. How generous and loving she was. Protective of me. She was the only one allowed to beat me up. Nobody else was allowed to beat me up in school. She took care of me.

She looked out for me. She wiped my tears when my parents weren't around. She was my best friend. Carrie tells me that when Ken joined the family, he was charismatic, funny, and protective of them, and that Terry fell head over heels in love with Ken from almost the beginning and from a very young age. When they first met, Terry was 13 and Ken was 16. When they became a couple, Terry was 16 and Ken was 20. It was just really easy to be around when we were younger.

And when him and my sister ran off, quite honestly, I never saw him again. I would call my sister, but he kept her, you know, when you're that young, you're really naive, right? And you don't really see things for what they are until you sit down and think back years later what you were actually seeing. I believe Ken groomed my sister. So coming into the month leading up to my sister's murder she had started telling me about abuse and how he was laying hands on her and they would fight all the time and I had asked my sister to give me a month

to get some funds together to get her home to where we were in Ontario. And, you know, kind of like never got her home in time before she died. I'm not even sure why the funeral was such a blur. It was sitting in front of me, and I remember feeling like, who's this man?

This isn't my brother, I'm on. This isn't the guy we grew up with. Who is this man? So there was a bit of, like, on my part, animosity, resentment, a whole bunch of things. But I still tried to be a good sister-in-law, and I started maintaining contact with him,

just calling to say, hey, how are you? How are the kids? How is all of this going? Stuff like that. How would he respond? He was like Ken, goofy laugh. you'd say the kids were fine he would tell me he was taking them to see his sister or his mom and i wasn't really able to speak to them after my sister passed away he was so cold at that make and stiff and weird. But during the calls, you know, it felt fake.

And did you ever speak to Terry's kids or talk to them about that day or that night or anything about this? No, they were really little. And so up till Terry's murder, I had contact with my niece that could speak at the time. We would sing songs on the phone together, like Veggie Tales. It was my sister's favorite show. And so we would sing songs like Larry's Brush or Larry the Cucumber's Brush. Terry's favorite song was I Love My Lips. Just out of interest, did you ever sing songs related to Sesame Street with them on the phone?

Cookie Monster. Yeah, the Cookie Monster song. You used to sing that with them? Yeah, like my sister Terry loved Cookie Monster, so it was more like nom, nom, nom, cookies, cookies, cookies. And then there's another Sesame Street song. It's kind of like where the aliens and the telephone come into the room and there's a little string aliens that go. Oh, yeah.

So we used to make those noises on the phone. Yeah. I used to love those guys. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Terry too. Yeah. I used to love those guys. Yeah. Yeah, me too. Terry too. Yeah. Did you ever read any of the documents out of the prelim at the time? Nope, none of that has never been made available to me. Okay. Recall that in her 2002 police interview, Terry and Ken's then four and a half year old daughter said that the cookie Monster locked her in her room, and that her dad was talking like the animal monster, the Cookie Monster.

This detail was made public in media reports about the preliminary inquiry from November 2020. In court 17 years later, the daughter denies that her father ever pretended to be the Cookie Monster based on her memory, but the new witnesses I spoke to indicated that the daughter did have some memories of that night related to the Cookie Monster voice and being locked in her room by her dad. Carrie was never called to testify at the trial herself, despite holding what she thinks may be important information. She tells me about a phone call she says she had with Ken. This one day, it was like New Year's Eve. I called him, or he called me to wish him Happy New Year's and talk to the babies. He told me he was leaving his sisters and he had forgotten the

diaper bag and we had a really good laugh about that it's the first time that I felt like we had connected since I guess childhood like connected and then he just got really quiet and silent I remember asking him if he was okay and what was going on. And then he started telling me, you know, the things he used to do to my sister when they would fight, how he would beat her and she would block his way so he couldn't leave after a fight, so he would beat her until she was unconscious and step over her body on the floor and feel guilty and come back and check on her later on. And I just, I felt like I was taking his confession, that whole call. After that phone call, I called the police. I asked Carrie if she can remember any of the specifics she says Ken told her that night on

the phone, but she says she's kept it to herself in case it might be needed in court one day. After that phone call, I have never been allowed to see my niece or my nephews. I haven't been able to speak to anybody, not even my own partner. I haven't confessed this to anybody but the police in like 18 years. Not all of the call. I remember everything he said to me. The only thing he didn't say was, I killed your sister. You might as well have, though.

Terry told me they had been fighting for years. She told me she was scared and she told me she wanted to leave him. She said she had had enough and she wanted to come home. Could I help? And that's what all our calls were based around over the last two months she was alive, is how we were getting home. And just to hang in there and don't put up with shit. And she kicked him out, right? She had kicked him out, but he would come back and they would visit the kids or they would fight.

And she said he got scary and he scared her. She couldn't deal with it. A confidential source who says she had a relationship with Ken after Terry was murdered told me she was also afraid of Ken, and that during an argument, Ken pushed her up against a fridge and raised a fist in her face. Anyone who has heard Ken discuss that time or his relationship with Terry should consider what they heard important and come forward if they haven't already.

She wanted to be a doctor. And she went through this phase where she told everybody she is a vegan, but I used to catch her eating the peach. I miss my sister every day. I miss my sister every day. Oh, hey there. I'm Andrew Fung, and I want to tell you about my new series with Via Rail. Join me as I ride on from Toronto to Ottawa and London aboard Via Rail's new fleet of trains. My journey was a breeze.

No traffic jams, just smooth sailing. The seats are super comfy, and with complimentary Wi-Fi, I can work and play with ease. Plus, with meals and snacks on board, I arrived refreshed and ready to explore. From a boat cruise in Ottawa to the Grand Theatre in London, these cities are packed with amazing experiences. For your next trip, do yourself a favor, skip traffic and take Via Rail. Watch both episodes now on cbc.ca slash Via Rail. Paid content with Via Rail Canada. At Desjardins, we speak business. We speak equipment modernization. We're fluent in data digitization and expansion into foreign markets.

And we can talk all day about streamlining manufacturing processes. Because at Desjardins Business, we speak the same language you do. Business. So join the more than 400,000 Canadian entrepreneurs who already count on us and contact Desjardins today. We'd love to talk business. I'm going to try calling Ken Dauphiney for obvious reasons. Ken's connection to the case is undeniable, in that he has been subjected to interviews by police,

a Mr. Big operation, lots of allegations that have been thrown about, lots of suspicion on Ken about Terry's murder. It's taken a few weeks to find the number that might be his. Oh hi, is that Ken? I make the call, but the person who picks up the phone, unexpectedly, is not Ken Dauphiney, but one of his and Terry's children, a son. The son tells me that the phone is his and that his dad lives in another province.

I tell him I won't bother him again, and the call ends. Despite continuous searching for weeks, there's no other number I can find that is associated with Ken, and I have no intention to speak to his and Terry's sons. They were too young to have any memories of events. I decide to send a final text to the son I've contacted to see if there's any way to reach Ken. I write, I'd like to talk to him about a podcast I'm making about your mom's case.

I know it has been a struggle for you all for many reasons. Trying to find the truth and I want to give your dad the opportunity to provide his recollections of that time to see if I can make a difference in the case. Name is David Ridgen, working for CBC. And the son responds, that's your business. He'll take your calls if he wants to. I have no interest in discussing anything with you. Don't contact my siblings. They won't appreciate the trip down memory lane. I end the texting with a simple thanks.

I do have an interest in speaking to Ken and Terry's daughter, and Heather volunteers to connect me with her since she has a relationship of sorts with her. But the daughter, in Heather's words, replies with the fastest no ever. The son had messaged his sister to let her know I had called. I also reach out to Ken's mother, Joanne Person, in a letter, asking her to contact me. Ooh, so welcome back. All right, Ken, you can have your usual bistro area over here, and Angela, you may put your stuff down over there as well. You know what's working above your head. Another woman who says she overheard Ken make utterances she found troubling did decide to come forward.

A tattoo artist from Western Canada. Where are you going to get tattooed, Ken? An anchor. An anchor? Really? It all begins on August 14th, 2017, when Ken first visits the tattoo studio with his then-girlfriend, Angela Painter. Angela was to receive a tattoo. This session was not recorded, but during it, a discussion began where the artist

tells the court in the preliminary inquiry that Mr. Dauphiney came to Angela's appointment and there was a conversation that was brought up during that time relating to Mr. Dauphiney knowing about beating the system and dealing with law enforcement. He said he was a wanted man, or that he had been for the murder of his wife. Mr. Dauphiney went on a short rant regarding how unpleased with the judicial system that he was, and that although he was a wanted man in the death of his wife, that he'd gotten away with it because they had nothing on him. At one point, Ms. Painter interrupted Mr. Dauphine, and she said that's enough because he was, I believe she picked up on the fact that he was making me feel

uncomfortable, and pointing his finger at his girlfriend, he told her that he'd gotten away with it before, and that he could again, adding that he stomped her good, stomped her, tromped her good. The artist says she took that to mean that Mr. Dauphiney was proud of himself for getting away with murdering his wife. The session ends because of Ken's statements and behavior, and the artist reschedules with the girlfriend. Except next time, she decides to record Ken on her iPad, and she decides to go to the police. Police don't object to her recording idea.

So you guys are going to move in together? Well, I'm moving into the basement. That's cool. Shortly after Ken arrives, the tattoo artist tries to steer toward a more personal conversation about Ken's family. You've got two boys? Yeah. And a daughter. And a daughter. She might be moving here.

The tattoo artist volunteers her own experiences with an alleged legal battle, seemingly commiserating with Ken over how it changed her life in order to pull more information. I agree with that, Ken. It really does change lives. Have you learned any lessons? Two ears and one mouth because you're supposed to do twice as much listening and half as much talking. That's a lesson. That's a very good one. Although there are places in life where you have to feel comfortable, I think,

and free to be able to talk. And I'll be damned, in my opinion, my workroom is one of those. Ken then volunteers that his boys are feeling the effects of them losing their mom. How long ago did that happen? 15 years? Yeah, 15 years ago. effects of them losing their mom. what it was. There's people that say a lot of bad stuff online and I'm sure they've seen a lot of it. But Ken doesn't utter any statements on tape similar to the ones the tattoo artist says he did in his unrecorded first visit. And ultimately the prosecution felt that the tattoo artist's credibility would have been challenged in court. Afterward, the tattoo artist is actually retained by Calgary police and paid $1,600 per month for six months for services related to Terry's case.

In December 2017, the tattoo artist is involved in introducing Ken to undercover officers. In court, the tattoo artist says that in a later conversation with Ken Dauphiney, Ken denied killing Terry. And in January 2018, Operation Homefront begins, the Mr. Big operation targeting Ken Dauphiney. Well, I'm trying to. But fuck it, help me out here. If they fucking catch us before we find out what they got,

we're both fucked. 100% we're both fucked. This highly altered voice, made so by court order, is that of one of the unnameable undercover officers in the Mr. Big. I'll call them the UO's. This excerpt is taken from the middle of one of the final scenarios where the UO's are trying to get Ken to give them evidence that they can use in Terry's case. These recordings would become one of the key pillars in the Crown's case against Ken Dauphiney. This is going to have to become more than likely me going in and having to sit down with people. And this is Ken Dauphiney, whose voice is mostly unaltered, except when in crosstalk with a UO.

To me, Ken rarely sounds flustered, even when the UOs press him repeatedly for information. So maybe I should just go. You can't fucking go. I can't fucking lose you. The Mr. Big technique was invented by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in British Columbia in the early 1990s, and it is a technique practiced mainly in Canada since that time, but has also been tried in Australia. Did you actually black out?

Look at me. You fucking trust me? Yeah. Targeting suspects with dramatic scenarios like this has been contentious and generated questions about evidence reliability and about police abuse of process among other things. Any confession that comes out of a Mr. Big operation is presumed to be inadmissible and can only be admitted into evidence after tests are applied in court. So what the fuck man? Be straight with me. For fucking once in the last fucking two weeks and he didn't be fucking straight with me. For Ken, police undertook 39 scenarios over five months, using hidden mics and concealed

video equipment that culminated in what is known in police talk as a stim, a moment where police actors put the most pressure they can on a suspect by maneuvering them toward a meeting with the Mr. Big Figure. While the audio quality here, in my opinion, is shockingly poor, given the effort made to acquire it, the information becomes central to the Crown's case and allows us to see the lengths that police are willing to take their investigative efforts when they believe they have the right person. But I need to know that this guy is not going to fuck with me.

Like, what the fuck does he know? Like I said, I believe he thinks I'm responsible. But while there's a lot of ear straining through tough audio, there's also some moments where there may be something of more import being said. I said my deal was, hey, I don't want a freaking deal with this. This is all me and my wife. said. Ken is at times contradictory in what he says. He says that he blacked out at or around moments crucial to the case, or banged his head at work and that that has made his memory worse. Ken often seems to be both trying to maintain a side of the story

that suggests he knows nothing about Terry's murder, even while other more inculpatory-seeming statements slip through where he appears to put himself at the scene of Terry's murder through direct knowledge. And it was these statements that likely led to Ken's arrest. In this following instance, played here out of chronology, one of a few like it that occur across scenarios, Ken Dauphiney reveals a story to the UOs of how he burned his clothing and other items in a fire pit located in his father's Calgary backyard

in the immediate period after Terry was murdered. When asked if police would have found the clothing Ken was wearing at the time, Ken responds, Ashes? No. Okay. So you burnt that? Yeah. And the UO says, Okay, so you burnt that? Yeah. Soon after? And Ken says,

Yeah, like right away. It was in a fire pit. Ken tells the UOs that he burnt the items right away, implying that it was sometime before his arrest around noon on April 29th. Later, he suggests he burnt the items after he was arrested and released. This is far from the first time that Ken would reverse his timings of events. In another instance, Ken tells a UO that he was at his friend Tom's place from around 10.30pm to 2.30am. But Tom's wife at the time said in court that Ken only stopped by for 10 minutes from about 12.50am to 1am, and that he said bye to her before he left, although she didn't see him go. The UO says to Ken, Terry got fucked up before you went to Tom's? And Ken replies, yeah.

Ken goes on, I burned everything. Fucking old papers, fucking phone lists. Yeah, everything. Because I just figured, why keep it? I've reached out to Tom Zukowski, Ken's friend at the time of Terry's murder and perhaps in modern day. I want to talk to Tom about Ken's timeline. Cuthbert feels that Tom may have information and Tom comes up in the Mr. Big too as a potentially significant figure. Hi, you've reached Tom. Leave me a message and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Thanks.

Hi Tom, it's David Ridgen calling from the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, the CBC. I then Facebook messaged Tom and I replied with a comment to one of his posts on Twitter. Within 20 minutes, Tom had blocked me and made his whole account private, so it's up to him to come forward if he has anything to talk about. Back to the Mr. Big with Tom's friend, Ken Dauphiney. In another instance, Ken refers to stuff that has been destroyed. Even the little bits that I can remember. And importantly, he suggests that he has been vehemently maintaining a story about the case. Maintaining this other story for family, friends, and everybody.

There are also segments of dialogue where Ken seems to make direct connection to the moments around when and where Terry was murdered. I mean, there was precautions so that there wasn't DNA. I mean, there was precautions so that there wasn't DNA. And the UO asks, like, what? And Ken responds, gloves. The UO asks Ken what happened the night Terry was killed, and it prompts the following response from Ken. Through the crosstalk, Ken is transcribed as saying, just fucking lost it, I guess.

And then he continues speaking about Terry. Ken says he and Terry butted heads and had different ways of dealing with things. My way was to, because of my temper, I guess, fucking walk away. And hers was more of a, a no you fucking sit here right now the uo asks you guys were just going at it ken starts by referencing the abuse he experienced growing up ending with i don't believe in hitting a woman but if you're gonna fucking throw it at me you're asking for it back the uo asks if Ken blew up on Terry, and Ken says, Well, it was more like it was a fucking accidental thing. It was more like it was a fucking accidental thing.

The UO responds, you left to get gloves, it's not fucking accidental. And then pushes harder for Ken to remember, asking him to think, and then asks where the gloves came from. And she didn't want me to leave. And Ken continues, Before I fucking turn, she's stepping in the way. No, no. And I think I just fucking grabbed her and tossed her out of the way.

Grabbed her and tossed her out of the way. She went down funny. And that was... Holy fuck. She went down funny. And that was... Holy fuck. Like, panic mode.

Panic mode. And extra panic mode. And extra panic mode because there's fucking three little people like, you gotta take care of this The UO asks if Ken was still wearing the gloves Ken headed out to the car and left that was it, shaking all the way When pressed about the weapon Ken headed out to the car and left. That was it. Shaking all the way. Shaking all the way.

When pressed about the weapon, what he did with it, whether it was destroyed, smashed or burned up, Ken seems to reverse, claiming again that he doesn't recall there ever being a weapon. I know I fucking got rid of everything. I don't recall there being a weapon at all. Period. End of story. And then... I was the weapon. I was the weapon. Despite strangulation being ruled as Terry's cause of death, interest in whether a weapon may have been present at the time of her murder is explored by the UO's.

This, coupled with the 2002 mention of a blue flashlight by a Ken and Terry's daughter, may have prompted this interest. UO's made concrete assertions repeatedly to Ken about someone having knowledge that he may have picked up a weapon from his friend Tom's house. During the operation, Ken states that he broke a weapon up into multiple pieces and that those parts are like gone in different provinces. But then he just as quickly seems to blur what he just said about this alleged weapon by saying he doesn't remember a weapon at all.

Ken also expressed worry about cell phone towers that could possibly show his route that day, implying that what he told police could be inaccurate. The next day, Ken Dauphiney is arrested. But the Crown seems to imply from the beginning that they feel the case is on thin ice, with Crown Prosecutor Ken McCaffrey telling the media that there are issues to resolve with their case. The ice breaks in November of 2020 when the court focuses on admissibility of the Mr. Big evidence and statements from the daughter. Justice Rosemary Nation decides that

the young daughter's 2002 video statements to police are not admissible. As for the Mr. Big, Justice Nation finds, the totality of the interrogations led to confusing and contradictory answers against a background of the accused constantly reaffirming that he has no or limited recollection of events, and also that there was an abusive process when, among other things, police denied Ken his liberty during the four days it took to undertake the final scenarios, and also when police tried to question one of Ken's children due to coercive pressures on Ken and the psychological effects of the Mr. Big itself. Concluding her decision with the statements of the accused obtained during the Mr. Big undercover operation are not admissible in the trial of this matter.

None of it could be used in Ken's trial. With the daughter's video statements and the Mr. Big being disallowed, the stay was entered by the Crown. And that's where this case sits today, with the stay set to expire on February 5th, 2022. The Crown didn't do its job. The Crown didn't do shit. I do not blame any of these detectives that were on this case for many, many years. In fact, I know that the Calgary Police Department is friggin' pissed that he walked away. I'm called that aggressive mama bear where my teeth and my claws are into this deep and I don't let go. And I gave this over to you.

I reached out to you and I'm letting you run with it. So you run with it. Thanks. So I'll get back to you on this stuff. Yeah, thank you. Okay, bye-bye. From 2001 to 2015, the police reported homicide rate for Indigenous women in Canada was almost six times higher than the homicide rate for other women. I went to Sue Martin on that cold November Island in the Ottawa River in 2015 because I thought I could help discover who killed her daughter Terry Dauphiney. Sue came back to me six years later because she felt she knew who did it but that justice failed her and failed Terry.

Ken has denied killing Terry to the tattoo artist and, according to Heather, to her, possibly others too. The charges against him have been stayed and, in Terry's case specifically, Crown Ken McCaffrey says that in order to revisit this charge before the stay period lapses, strong admissible evidence would have to be found by police. If you have information, there's no reason to protect what you know. The whirlwind has started. The trees are being shaken. This is the third and final regularly planned episode in the case of Terry Dauphiney.

If significant new information is found, or the court proceedings begin anew, I'll be back. The next call is hosted, written, and produced by me, David Ridgen. The series is also produced by Hadil Abdel-Nabi. Sound design by Evan Kelly. Our senior producer is Cecil Fernandez. Emily Connell is our digital producer and our story editor is Chris Oak. Transcriptions by Natalia Ferguson and Virad Mehta. Evan Agard is our video producer. Ben Shannon designed our artwork. Our cross-promo producer is Amanda Cox.

Special thanks to Ibrahim Abdel-Nabi and the CBC Reference Library. The executive producer of CBC Podcasts is Arif Noorani. Our executive director is Leslie Merklinger. If you want to help new listeners discover the show, please rate and review wherever you listen. And if you're looking for more investigations, check out Someone Knows Something. Each season I investigate a different unsolved case, from a five-year-old who goes missing after

a family fishing trip, to a mother's decades-long search for justice. Find Someone Knows Something on the CBC Listen app, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm David Ridgen. We'll be back soon, with a new case, and the next call.