Something Was Wrong - S1 Ep15: SWW LIVE Sacramento!

Episode Date: July 30, 2019

*Content Warning: gaslighting, domestic abuse, emotional and physical abuse, distressing themes.Music from Glad Rags album Wonder UnderSWW Live took place Saturday August 24th 2019 at The Sophia at B Street Theater in Midtown Sacramento.Donate to Stand Up Placer at https://www.standupplacer.org/ Connect with Psychotherapist Isaac Smith at https://www.wholewellnesstherapy.com/Thank you so much to Alissa Doyle, Sara Lewis, Chivas May, Isaac Smith, Michael Reese and Ryan Doyle for their help in making this evening happen!!!

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This podcast is intended for mature audiences and could be triggering to some. Please use discretion when listening. Thanks. Welcome, everyone, to Library for Something Was Wrong Live here in Sacramento. My name is Alyssa Doyle. I'll be your host tonight. So you are not here to see me. You are here to see the legs of the hour.

So please give it up for Sarah Lewis and Tiffany. I can't see anybody you all agree. How are you guys feeling? Are you nervous? I'm hella nervous. A little bit. Hellen nervous? Hellen nervous.

That's the NorCal nervous. I sit in jumps up. So let's just kick it off. How did the podcast come to be? Let's talk about that. So the podcast came to be through you. I think actually one of our mutual friends had sort of like hinted to me. Alyssa has a story that she needs to tell you when she gets here tonight because I heard like three seconds of it and I'm pretty sure it's a good story.

And like you're a notorious good storyteller. So I was already pumped about it and you're like, well, my friend was supposed to be getting married. I don't know the story. But like I know that like X, Y, Z happened. Yes. This was at a divvy party, so I don't believe? Yeah. Yes.

It was for our friend's birthday party. And I had smoked probably like two joints at this point. And because, like, I have three kids. So, and we're in California, so suck it. And so you were telling me the story, and I was just like, oh, my God. And you didn't know all the details, but I was just like, what is happening? And I remember the one thing that I remember for sure was the cellulite text. Oh, God, yes.

Everybody remember that text. You were like, all I know is this fucking guy created this fake person and somehow brought up her cellulite. And that's all I needed to hear. I was like, podcast right now, fucking get it together. Okay, ladies, let's get in formation because I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And that's what, and honestly, I was like, I need to know this story. I'm a really curious person. And I was just looked at you and I was like, that would be such a good podcast.

And you were like, yeah. And I was like, yeah. And I remember we were like standing in a group of people and like they were like, oh God, they're talking about podcasts again. Like, you know, just like walking away. And you and I throughout the night would just stare at each other and randomly just be like a podcast. And you and Michael, shout out to Michael, who checked you all in, Michael Reese, had had a podcast for like a hot minute. For a hot minute.

And did you do like three episodes? Yeah, we did three episodes and then football season started, so I should have known that I was going to not be able to commit from there. I should have known myself better. But it turns out you can edit podcasts while watching football I learned this past year, so it ended up working out okay this time. Yeah. So Sarah, what were your initial thoughts when you were approached about this? So you texted me, and I remember the wording was so thoughtful and so diplomatic, as you always are. but I knew the source too

so my first thought was ooh like a podcast and I thought oh wait this is my like it's about my worst nightmare and I kind of like paused for a second and thought about it but knowing you

that was that was what I think caused me to react positively because I knew how delicately you approached it and that you valued me as a friend and you wouldn't suggest something that was you know

and it was really soon after Yeah, it was within like two or three months. It was the same summer. Yeah, no, you, I think you texted me in like June, so the wedding was called off in May. I think it was either June or July. We communed at the Reese's home. Yes. So we set it up and then you came over. We met.

We turned on a way shittier microphone than that in my kitchen. And that was pretty much the majority of the audio from the first season. And then obviously as like more things came out over. As episodes started releasing, there was more content to record. But the majority of it is from that. And that was about a five hours sitting with you. Six? Six?

Yeah. I know that I bought a lot of snacks from Trader Joe's and no one ate the snacks. I had some snacks at the beginning. Because we were all just like, and I don't know why I bought so many crunchy things next to a make a phone. And I do remember, the first couple hours, we were being really polite and like being very aware of our reactions and stuff. And by the end, I swear to God, I was like up pacing the room. Because I had heard all the details. I was like, are you freaking kidding me?

Yeah. I didn't even think about what it would be like for you as a longtime friend, because we've known each other for what, over 10 years-ish around there to hear the story. I'm just, I like switch into storytelling mode and I'm not thinking about it. And by the end, we're flipping tables and throwing snacks and screaming. Yeah, yelling. Yeah. Yeah.

So what's been the hardest part and the most rewarding parts of this experience? for both of you guys. I'll let you go first. Okay, okay. I'll start with the hardest. It was kind of, I think the hardest part was also the most surprising. I didn't, I'm pretty fortunate to have a lot of people around me that are very validating. Nobody was dismissive, everybody, and I realize that's a gift.

I think the most unexpected part was the Internet, to be honest, which I guess isn't that big of a shock to the rest of the world. But the Internet sucks. So it was really, my personality type, I want everyone to understand. And so what I, what I wanted the world to understand was that he didn't, you know, show up in a red suit with a pitchfork at my front door. He was, you know, an excellent boyfriend. He wasn't a crappy boyfriend by any means. So I think my frustration at feeling misunderstood or thinking, am I that, you know,

do I just have a penchant for the dramatic? Is that why I told this story? You know, that kind of thing. They knew by episode three, Sarah. Sorry. Right, exactly. I was somebody, if you were like, I knew by episode three. I'm like, because you're listening to a like TV show basically.

Well, it is called something. Everything was fine, you know. Yeah, everything was fine. Everything was fine. We were kicking it. But yeah, I didn't realize how many sleuths are out there. I mean, if only I'd ask the internet. Nobody was there to see the nuances and the connection and the, you know, I mean, we could read each other from across a room.

It wasn't like, you know, I mean, I think it was really hard to put. portray the level of betrayal, honestly, because the connection is real. You just have to sort through the fact that the person that you connected with doesn't exist. And that's where the breakdown happens, kind of. That was the hardest part. What was the best part? Did you already say that? Hearing Tiffany Reese. Oh, no, I can say it exactly how she said. Do it. I think the, at the IRIS award moment and the, well, like this, to be honest. I mean, the messages and the connections formed the people that kind of just like literally came out of the woodwork that I had no idea I would have something in common with and people who had gone through so much more and how

as weird as the internet was I also saw the compassion that just spans the globe. There were just so many people that immediately came forward with warmth and understanding and compassion and it was truly beautiful. But my other favorite was like standing at work at the end of the day and I couldn't leave yet and I was watching the Iris Awards streamed online. And coworkers were like videoing me. And when that woman said, Tiffany Reese, like on the mic, it's just like out of body. Everything just froze. So that was by far my favorite.

That was a good moment. It was a little crazy. How about you, Tim? So I would say the hardest part is also just people sub-putting you in a box and you can't get out of it because they've already made their mind up about you and you're what you think and they know 100%. It's like people just don't realize that you're real people on the internet. And that's part of the reason, like, while there's a podcast, Instagram, like, I direct people towards my personal Instagram. I want people to see my face. Like, I'm a mom. I'm a human being. If you

want to talk shit to me, call me on the phone, cash me outside. But like, any idiot can write a comment and send a message on the internet. And I just think, like, the hard part is, is like, I have imposter syndrome really bad. And I also am a huge people placer and I'm hella co-dependent, which is like probably, you know, how I'm able to also like empathize with a lot of people who have been in similar situations. But yeah, it's really hard when you feel like, but I want that everyone to like me. Like I want everyone to like me and think that everything that I'm doing is correct. So that's really hard with the internet. Can you say a little bit more about that, like, the box that you felt like people were putting you into,

uh, did, was that like a new experience that kind of like, was that a brand new experience for you with a podcast or was it like a new box that you would never put into? And what kind of, what did that box look like? Well, it was like twofold because, um, it was one part feeling really protective of Sarah and people judging her because she really went, like, put herself out there and trusted me with her story and I felt very protective of her and her family. And I know them in real life so I know what amazing people they are. So to hear people just like talking badly about them was really hard, which is why I don't read the iTunes reviews anymore because I just choose not to, you know, like you don't get to

come into my living room and take a shit. Like you just don't. I'm not going to do that to you and you don't get to do that to me, especially if you don't know me. So, like, unless you have a successful podcast, I'm really not interested in your feedback, to be honest. It's like, the only people that can critique you are the people that are in the arena with you. But it's, you have to, like, build up a scab, though, to that. Like, I had no idea that, like, how people would get.

And also, we were dealing with this person in the season, and the season is developing. And, like, he's threatening us. And there's all this other shit going on behind the scenes. And, like, I felt scared at times. I don't know if you ever felt scared. You were like, please show up at my door. I think you were like, I would love nothing more, bitch. There were moments.

It wasn't all like that. But there was some times maybe. Depends on the stage we were at. And I definitely felt like that too at times, especially when I felt like he was trying to locate where we lived and doing different things. And so I was just, you know, that was a low point, like personally. But the high points, there were so many more high points.

Just like people trusting, trusting Sarah and I with like their stories and like how many people have come forward and like every day people message us and are sharing their stories and they're like I didn't even we've had people leave abusive relationships after listening to the podcast we've had people that had just stepped out of situations so similar to Sarah message us and be like I felt like I was listening to my own story and like I I feel so comforted by this and that was by far the coolest. thing to me. It just feels like you have purpose. Yeah. Sarah, if we could go back just for just for a second. Can you touch on a little bit what kind of like role the podcast played, if any, in your kind of grieving or mourning or sort of like wrapping your head around what happened process? Oh my gosh. It's hard to explain like, I don't know where to start, but there's a lot of, am I crazy, am I crazy? you know, when you're unraveling everything. So the massive amount of validation and confirmation and education and research that this

chick was doing, I didn't know to do all that. I mean, the research I did, I remember when my family and I, when they took me to Cabo instead of my honeymoon, and I don't, I came across some article or maybe my mom sent it to me or something. And I saw the term love bombing and started reading and just read and read and started flipping out because I still hadn't figured out what happened. So that was my first like, oh, there's a label to this. Are you kidding me? So I think doing the podcast at times was like, oh, crap, what have I done? You know, when people's opinions start flooding in and then you

realize, oh, my diary is on the internet. This might get weird. But then people's confirmation and validation was mind-blowing. It was everything. Yeah, that's awesome. Tips, so what is the future of the podcast in your mind? Well, obviously, like, season two has started, and I've already recorded the interviews for season three. So I have two seasons coming out, hopefully, by the end of this year. And then... Guys get ready to bench. So there'll be a little bit shorter seasons than the first season, obviously,

because these stories are different in that they have taken place. There is distance between the story and present time. which I think can be, there's like, you know, good and bad about things progressing in real time versus not. But, yeah, just people submit their stories on the website all the time, and it's really, really heavy stuff, and it's everywhere in the world, and stories come in from all sorts of countries, you know, of all nationalities, all gender, all everything. It's, the impact is just crazy. Yeah. What are some of the topics that you're thinking of touching on?

Really honestly, like all forms of emotional abuse really interests me. You know, I love, like, Colts. I love anything with behavioral science. Like, I love just, like, knowing what makes people, what motivates people to do the things that they do. Not because I want to judge them, but I just want to know. And I think it's really therapeutic for myself, in a selfish way because I learn about my own experiences through these people and it's really

validating for me as well and it helps me to see like the diseases that people have and the mental health issues that those individuals have and I think I've been able to become more sympathetic after dick towards those people I think like it's also different when you're like interacting and dealing with that person annoying you versus like other stories where I will you know never be in contact likely with that person. So, but yeah. And I think at least for me, it's, it's been an eye-opening experience through this to see that there's, it seems like there's such a gap in talking about emotional abuse. Like people don't, it's not really something they talk about. In my own experience with different forms of emotional abuse, I'm like, I try to find other stories. They're just not

there. And so I, I applaud you for giving these men and women of, uh, of what? and a place to speak to you and speak to each other and I just I think it's really important here so Sarah before we get to our next little section do you have any new Dick developments that you can share since you were on season one I feel like so much goes like so many random things just like you can't even keep up I'm trying to think of when the last episode came out I mean other than not like in go ahead oh sorry ex-girlfriend or the girl from has anything happened since then no I mean I met his first

fiancee in person that's a oh yeah I forgot about that when I was in Nashville that was fun she's it's creepy how alike we are but then again makes sense he is currently engaged rumor has it he's engaged right around three so Now three. So, season two has begun, and our lovely star of season two is actually here tonight. So I would like to welcome to the stage T. You never met. Thank you, you never.

These are my like favorite children. She's the best. So T, this is Sarah. Sarah, this is T. Super casual. Super casual. Here, you sit there. So, Tee, have a, so, hi, T.

Welcome. Did you guys listen? Yeah. Did you guys listen to us? Shut up. Yes. Of course, these are the Dymards. They're here.

I know, but I didn't think anyone, I told her, I don't even think 100 people are gonna hear my story. She was really concerned. She was like, do you think like a thousand people? And I was like, ah. I'll try a thousand countries. Are there not many? I did not.

She's like screenshoting me to Apple tunes, and I'm like, I still don't believe you. No one's heard it. So, T, what's it like to meet Sarah? Because you listen to season one, correct? Yeah, so, so weird. So I'm not a podcast girl, and I work at a veterinary hospital. One of my sales reps came in, and she was like, I'm benching this podcast. You have to hear it.

And I was like, okay. So I listened to it. And this one, she just, she is like a therapist on the air. Like, it's amazing. And I had been waiting 10 years to tell my story. Oh, wow. And I was like, this is the person I want to tell my story. And I didn't think she would ever respond to me.

And I would ever, like, message me back. I messaged her on Facebook. I'm like, 100,000 people listen to your thing. You're never going to answer me back. I think I message you back right away. Yeah. I was like, what up? I'm doing nothing.

And I'm like, and it, my thing was, I don't think you're going to believe me. And she's like, I don't really need to doubt you. And I'm like, because truth is very much strange truth isn't fiction. And then she's like, dude, I have a lot going on. Like, I just won the Iris Award. I'm like, I know. And so it's like, and she's like, I promise I'll be in touch. I was like, I was dead inside at that point.

I was so tired from season one. I was like, I was really so dead inside. Yeah. It was just emotional. bit much. I did not believe that she would ever, one, respond to me, two, that she would ever respond again. And then I was like the drug rep that had introduced me. I was like, Tiffany Reese just takes me. Oh, my God. And then, like, no one realizes what a big deal. This is to me, like, 10 years I've been waiting to tell my story. Like, this was my life. Like, people are now messaging me and they're like, oh, I can't wait.

And I'm like, yeah, this was my life, though, dude. This was not, this happened to me. It was horrific. That was something that we talked about a lot through season one. As it was rolling out and getting the response and stuff was so overwhelming. And a lot of it was really difficult. And we started referring to it as people wanting their trauma porn. And just like, oh God, what happened?

And being unsatisfied with the ending because no one died. And kind of everyone kind of becoming a character. It can be, it can be difficult because, you know, there's such a, it's a line between sharing your story and getting that community and people really feeling seen and understood it and also. Well, how can you understand this? This is not understandable. Like, what happened to me and my family and my best either? It's not understandable. Like, it's not, like, people don't do this. Like, I mean, I was so, it was just poetic. justice at the timing that the act came out with Gypsy Rose. I mean, you hear about that, but it's on like nightline. It's not for real. This really happened to me. It happened to my family. And it was four years of my life. Like this lady kept this story going for four years. Wait, episode three is like two years in. Yeah. Wait, what? I'm talking to girl. And I'm not giving

it away. No, I know. I don't know. You got to listen. Girl. Yeah. No, like you guys. Seriously. No. But it was four years. Well, welcome to the Soutland's Wrong family. Miss Sond Mom, let me tell you. So let's move on to the question and answer time for a little while. So if you have a question, raise your hand.

Also, unfortunately, we're not going to direct any questions to T. We can't do any spoilers. Sorry. I suppose if you do have a question that pertains to the first three episodes, totally fine. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, who's the brave one who starts out? Yes, over here.

To, um, to hear these stories. So it sounds like maybe there's stuff that you can't ever tell your story. Tiffany, do you think you might ever share more of your own personal story? You know, I think I'd be a huge hypocrite if I didn't. I think, um, getting there. I think, like, being around these type, you know, ladies and getting the messages from other people, like, makes me want to be vulnerable. I got to tell you, like, I shared such a small amount on the first season about, like, with my relationship with my father, and I got messages from people on Instagram, and they're like, you need to just do this with your life, you need to do this with your relationship.

And it was, I was just like, I can't, I mentally just, I don't know. So I definitely want to, but I prefer to talk about other people, so we'll see. But yeah, I don't know what that will look like or whatever, but I definitely want to, and I think like it's important if I expect other people to be vulnerable to be vulnerable myself. Otherwise, like, it's pretty hypocritical, so. All right. Who's next? Yes, we're going to talk. Everything was fine. Is that what you said? Why the title?

Yeah, why in the title something was wrong? Um, I just, what stood out to me talking to a lit, just in all the interviews was like that was the common thread was just like there was just something there that was like unspeakable. And I think it's, I really believe it's like that fear that protects us. And sometimes we listen to it and sometimes we don't because we're humans. And I think like the core of emotional abuse is really hard to pin down and you don't really know what exactly it is because it's so like, insidivate. and so just snaky. I don't know what the right word is. Is that a word? Probably not. But yeah, I just kept people. I just knew it was something was wrong. I remember specifically Rose. Is Rose here? Is Rose here? There's Rose. Yes. She's in the back there. I just remember her saying that and she was like up at night, you know, and like my kids are still small but I think as a mom myself like listening to her, I always, always like already I'm trying to get the like word into my kids I'm like you need to be 35

before I even meet somebody that you're dating don't even come at me no I want them to be happy but it's just like as a mother it's so hard to just like you have these kids and then they just go do whatever the hell they want at some point you have you have no control over what they can do anymore and it's like you know one day you're like hey I'm in charge of your snacks and the next day they're dating dick and you can't do shit about it you know And you just have to sit there and be like, I'm so happy. I think everybody's. So yeah, that really resonated with me.

I got totally off topic. Love it. Cool. And the music, can I just say the music? The music that's not right. Dude, the crazy thing about that, if we have time, I hope like, yeah, I think. Yeah. So I just went to, you know, like everything on the podcast that I just learned from the internet.

You know, the internet sucks, but it taught me everything I know. So I was just on this random website. It's like free podcast music.com or some like, God knows. It's like the third page of Google search because I was just like, I have no money for this. I had, you know, and I was just going through pages and it said, you know, you think you. I listened to it.

And I remember I recorded it right away with my phone. And I sent it to both of you. And we were just like, boom. Like done. Like that song was written for this. Yeah. It was too. It was.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. My question is specifically for Sarah, but I'm curious what it's been like to learn how to listen to your gut instincts again after your gut led you astray potentially, and if that's like still a process that you're undergoing. What's it like to listen to your gut and or not listen to your gut? How do you relearn how to listen to your gut yet? That's a really good question.

That's been very eye-opening, and it's helped me to see other relationships and scenarios. and people. I work in a place where I see a lot of people all day. And it's almost been like a mental game of practicing what I recognize and going, oh, I had that same feeling with this other person and connecting the dots and going, oh, that's what that feeling means. Because before, yes, I mean, there were times where I know we said in the podcast, I had no red flags, but now I know I did have red flags, but I just didn't know how to label that feeling. Now I know how to label it. And now I can see it coming from a mile away.

If I meet somebody with similar traits in a heartbeat, I go, oh, okay. But it was definitely like a compare and contrast game for the past year and a half. Yeah. Do you guys want to touch on that at all? I think gas lighting is really hard to get over. I think being told... Can you just talk a little bit about what gas lighting is just for a second, just like a refresher, what gas lighting is?

I mean, Isaac. Isaac. Yeah, you come up here and explain it? This is Isaac Smith. He's gonna be back, but... He's gonna be back on stage. You could do a better job. Look at this freaking outfit.

Are you kidding me? He like, called me three days ago. He's like, I'm worried about my outfit. I'm like, please. So basically gaslighting is when somebody tries to convince you that your perception of something is wrong and you really start to doubt your own, you know, your gut, like, Am I really crazy?

Like, you mentioned that. Like, am I really crazy? Like, this person has been telling me, am I not seeing this the right way? So it's just a game in order to get you to doubt what you really feel is your truth. So it's a lot of minimization and trying to sweep things under the carpet as quickly as possible to get you to doubt your own self. Yeah, that's great. Thank you, Isaac, so much.

Good job with your own. Just listening to your gut. I mean, is that how do you remind yourself, like, how to do that? I think it's like knowing, something that I have definitely had to learn since the jump of the podcast and just like where I was at in sort of like my social emotional state that I was going through before the podcast even began was just like, you cannot let other people tell you who you are. Like, especially people who are going to, that are committed to not knowing who the fuck you actually are. Like, who cares what those people think?

And it's taken me a really long time to get there, and it's something I struggle with all the time. But I just, growing up with addicts and alcoholics in my family, and you develop a codependency with other people, and something I have learned is like, oh, maybe I'm recreating that shit with other people now. And for me, it was like a lot of, like, female relationships in my life, which I think, you know, I really relate to that about season two. Female relationships have been really hard for me. So kind of like learning how to like have certain types of relationships for me, but have boundaries and like respect what other people think of me without letting it be the definition of who I am.

And that's where gaslighting can be really poisonous when you let other people not only like tell you who you are, but what reality is. You know, it can really be hazardous. Yeah. T, do you have anything? Yeah, definitely. I mean if you listen to season two at all like I realized like the last episode I was like that was odd that was odd I said like that was odd like 55 times but that was odd in retrospect but when I when you were going through it it wasn't odd because they're telling you it's not odd this is

the way it is and when you're immersed with someone who is manipulating you and lying to you and twisting your head and people will convince you that like what's happening oh no this is normal this is you know but trying to let someone in after that no my friend circle it's closed no it no no no no yeah no i can't no and i think um what about me you're in all right Oh good, Tiffany's in. Good choice. And I'm fine with the circle. The circle of trust.

It's very tight. Just touching back on kind of what Sarah was saying. For me, it's been an eye-opening experience through this, through season one, just to get really close to the two of you in a new way. And we're going to talk a little bit about French, like platonic friendships in the next part of the show. But I had an experience when we were in the middle of season one with a friend. And I didn't know what was happening. It was like, as I said, I literally felt crazy. I thought, am I, am I, is my instinct this shitty?

Like, am I just completely misreading everything about this? And I felt, I literally felt like a cloud was going over my brain. I had like a constant headache. And I was just like, maybe I'm completely wrong about this. and Sarah and Tiff. Good thing you had us. We're like two minutes and we're like, let's break this. Okay, we've got ourselves a narcissist minimum.

To see that you're being gaslit when you're being gaslit, like that's kind of the whole point. And so when they said it, I was like, oh, this is what this feels like. And that was major for me. And I think just like trusting your gut, I look back on that friendship. and there were parts of it that were incredible, of course. Like, you know, they're not standing at the door the frigging pitch for, come on in.

Like, it's not how it is. And for me, looking back and knowing that there were always those moments where I'm like, that's not right, that's not okay. But I excused it. I made, you know, I have reasons for saying, like, that was fine, whatever. That's just who she is for years. And then I got out of it and I was like, I can't do that to myself again. You know?

I think that we have time. for two more questions two more five yeah right here so Dick's real identity was revealed in some places on the internet I'm wondering if there were any repercussions of Dick's real identity being revealed other than him asking for our mailing addresses for legal purposes that I don't think that he and then he created a fake of several fake accounts like Instagram try to communicate try to communicate try to communicate with the he was he's still doing that he created fake accounts to join the Facebook group created fake accounts to then start talking to women who are sharing

their vulnerabilities in a Facebook group oh yeah and trying to steer people falsely in the Facebook group and I'm like flying to the Iris Awards at this time and I remember he had made up this fake girl and her name was so-and-so at it was Sarah spelled with an age spelled with an H. Like, bitch. And then he worked at temple. He picked these local.

Yeah, he picked these local Sacramento spots, but the cover photo was the Dallas skyline, which he loves Dallas. It was just kind of this weird. No, and there was three photos and they weren't the same girl. Well, and so then we were like, I remember sitting in the airport

and we were like trying to figure out how we could determine if this was him. Because I was just like, you know, I'm not in the Facebook group, but it was like there was enough communication. He was communicating with somebody who like basically reached out to the admin of the group gen who's awesome. And so we were investigating it.

So I was just like, I can't handle this anymore. So I picked up my phone. I'm like in the airport. I'm just like, yeah, Temple Kosti Roasters. Yeah. Does Sarah work there? You don't have any Sarah at this location? Okay, next location.

Hi, Sarah there. Is she working today? Oh, oh. So then I got the HR guy who has happened to be at Temple at the second location I called. Shout out to Temple. Their coffee's great. And I was. He's like, I'm actually making the schedule right now, so I have the employee roster.

I don't know your name, so I'll keep that a secret. But I was like, hey, so yeah, when's Sarah working? And he's like, we don't even have a Sarah here. I'm looking at our employee roster for all three stores. We do not have a Sarah. And I was just like, weird, she must have got a job at Starbucks. Okay, bye. Were you ever scared?

Yeah, yeah, there were times. There were nights I had a tough time going to sleep. But I was also at my parents' house. and I have a lot of prickly plants outside my picture. We've had this conversation, but anyway, no, there were nights that it was tough, but I relied on my family and my faith. Also, I was relying on experiences of when I did corner him, when I did kind of point a finger at him, every reaction every time was just kind of to go deadpan and to back away. I hadn't had any proof that he would be, that he would be, like go on the,

Yeah, I get aggressive. All right, we've got time for one more quick question. Yes, back there. I was just wondering, how much migrated to the IRIS Award and the maximum process of the Iris Award? Yeah, the process of the IRIS Awards. How are you? I love that I can see your hair outline right now.

Like that's fine. I know with you. So I have gone to the Iris Awards for many years, actually since the first year it started, and I have watched many of my friends received their trophies and I never thought I would be nominated for one but I was like you know what if I was going to try and get people to vote for me this felt like the year because I knew I had worked my ass off so and Sarah was excited about it so we were like we'll just put it out there and see what happens but I we all were just like if we get nominated that'd be super cool like never expected to win still don't know how that happened but I'm really excited about you're amazing

Look at these people that are here for you. I remember the whole conference being like, people would be like, are you excited? And I would just be like, I'm really nervous because I know I'm gonna make a face when they call Ashton Coochard's name or whatever. His name is, what was it? Dash, that could. Yeah. The other guy. I just was like really concerned and talking to everyone about like, does this face look convincing that I'm happy for this person? It's like not, because I was just so fixated on that.

Like, that was all I could think about was like, I didn't want people to not think that I was happy. for the actual person that was going to win because there was no way that was going to be I remember that was your main concern in our text thread. Yes, my face you guys are like you'll be fine. You're like no one's going to be looking at the losers. But yeah, I was cool. Yeah, amazing. All right, well, if you guys would give these lovely ladies and hands,

let's take things up a little bit and speak to a couple of experts on all these topics. So if you guys wouldn't mind introducing yourself, please. Hi everyone, my name is Chavez-Maze and I am a domestic violence expert. And I call myself an expert because I do have lived experience as a survivor. And now I work in the field and I have been working in the field for 22 years as one of the Board of Directors for the State Coalition, which is the California Partnership to End Domestic Violence. Great. Thank you so much. My name is Isaac.

I'm primarily a therapist in private practice. I've got a cozy little spot here in Midtown and then also in Fair Oaks. And I also do some work at a local homeless shelter in Roseville and in Auburn. Thank you. Welcome. I have some questions for you first. So on the bonus episode, you talked to Tiffany a lot about leaving domestic abusers. And can you talk a little bit about any tips that you have for leaving a relationship

that's not romantic, such as a friendship that you realize is toxic? Can you tell a little bit about that? Yeah. So I'd say a lot of the same things apply. If you notice that you're in a toxic relationship or friendship, the first thing that I would probably tell someone to do is to focus on that, reconnecting with themselves. A lot of the times, like if you think about an abuse of reference,

relationship, somebody has been telling you what to think and what to feel and how to act for so long. And you need some space to get reconnected with your gut to learn to be able to trust that again. And I think that first being able to take that space to do some grieving around that, you know, a lot of people that I work with, their main coping strategy is just to go to distraction. And that's a useful strategy, but when it becomes something that you apply to everything, you miss out on that space of connecting with the pain, and pain can really teach you a lot of stuff. So reconnect with yourself,

and also start to build or reconnect with some of those relationships with people that have been there for you the entire time, right? People that don't just love you when you're doing your best, but have been with you when you've been at your lowest. And when you're in abusive relationships, abusive people try to pull you away from those healthy relationships because it makes their job easier. So reconnecting in that way, I think, is the first step and then just taking some space to do some of the grieving that needs to happen.

Yeah. So if someone comes to you and says, I don't even know how to reconnect with myself anymore, I'm that lost. What are some good starting points for them? Yeah, I mean, this is not a fun one, so this is not a Disneyland answer, but it's learning to actually be with that pain. And that's really scary sometimes. And you have to do that at your own pace and kind of let that out in doses that you can handle. But learning to sit and locate, I believe a lot of the work that I do with people is about with mindfulness and getting them to tune back in with their body.

So figuring out where some of those feelings hang out in the body. and being with them, again, in doses that you can handle, and then go to your distraction. I think writing, like downloading your brain can be a really useful tool to help you get reconnected to that inner voice. Sometimes if you've been in an abusive relationship long enough, you might subconsciously not even know that you're looking for somebody to be like your life coach, right? Like even people that have really good intentions, like family members that are close, you might look for people to kind of lead that way and you'll have to resists.

some of those urges, right? Be mindful to some of those urges to look for somebody else first, right? Who's on your board of directors inside of your heart? And putting... And right. That was neat. Wow. I'd say that one more time. Just like people put folks on their board of directors to be like, this is how I'm supposed to live my life, like, without trusting their own voice. So... That's good. I like that. Sorry, my brain is like, well, keep on.

That's great. Thank you. So any tips for toxic people that you can't avoid? A boss, a coworker, a relative. What are some strategies that you have? Okay. So, first of all, I would probably ask someone a difficult question of, like, do you really have to be around this person?

And is this job really worth it enough to continue to be abused on a daily basis? No. If it's a situation where you're feeding your family, right, you're going to have to manage that while trying to look for something else. But I don't think that anybody should sign up to endure that. And the same right, and this is not a popular answer as well, so I'm sorry. But what is the rule that you have to like your family? You know, some family members are toxic people that haven't earned the right. right for you to be around and to speak truth into your life at all. Again, like in my life,

um, I try to look for people who have been there for me at all stages and really pay attention to what they say. Say like, hey, Isaac, you're being a knucklehead here. Like, you need to get this shit squared away, right? Um, I'm going to listen to them much more than I'm going to listen to people that don't know me as well. I might still like take what they say and evaluate and say like, is there any truth to that? But it's not going to hold as much weight because there's an extra vulnerability over here with the people that have been there for me. You talked a little bit about the self-care. I know that's kind of like a buzzword right now,

but can you talk about the importance of that, as well as talking a little bit about how codependency can kind of deplete us? Yeah. So if you kind of notice that you have some of those codependent tendencies, okay? Which would we possibly look like? Mainly it's like, if that person's in a happy mood, you're in a happy mood. If they're in a shit mood, you're in a shit mood, you know, it's really like your moods are all dependent on that other person or all of your energy goes to trying to take care

of someone else, right? Like lots of people are caregivers, you know, nurses, therapists, anybody in a helping profession can have caregiving tendencies. So that can be burn you out like nothing else. And I think that when you're there too, that's when you've lost a lot of your own voice as well when you're just focusing on taking care of somebody else. So, you know, doing, figuring out ways that really bring you life, things that you like to do, those can all be self-care activities. You know, talking to a therapist. Can't be a self-care activity. This is a tough one for me. The line between vilifying someone in your life or someone that was in your life that has, narcissistic or toxic tendencies, vilifying them, and like where's the line between that and

excusing their behavior because it's just who they are and the tools that they have because of trauma or parenting? That's a really great question. So, let me see. You better have a good answer. Solve the world's problem. I think a lot of times, Yeah. Okay. So I'm sure lots of you guys have heard this really cliche therapist thing to say, which is that hurt people, hurt people, right? I'm sure everybody's heard that. Okay? So unfortunately, sometimes people use their painful past or whatever as a license to treat people however they want or as an excuse. So I think that there's understanding, like you can understand. why somebody might have behaved or treated you in a certain way, but that doesn't mean that that behavior is okay. Also, like if you've been in abusive relationships for a long time, another reason why it's important to reconnect with yourself

is because the fastest way to find out what your triggers are or what lights up is to get into a relationship, whether that's romantic or another friendship. So sometimes your own past and your own traumas can make you, can color your lenses a little bit, and you might think that something is going on that's not actually going on, right? And the way to work that out

is in a context of a healthy relationship where you can talk about like, okay, I was triggered by this thing that felt exactly how I felt before when I was in this kind of bad relationship. So it's good to take some of that space. You know, I work with a lot of people that are struggling with addiction, whatever your party is.

And in AA, they have this kind of rule where they say, it's not a rule, but they say, hey, maybe you should take about a year off of romantic relationships while you're getting sober to give yourself some space. And I think that that same type of thinking is really helpful if you've been into a toxic romantic relationship. Like you should not be running off and getting into a relationship quickly. You need to pull back, take space, tune in, listen to yourself. and then maybe explore those things.

Thank you. It's powerful. Yeah. What kind of help is out there for people with personality or behavioral disorders? Yeah, so therapy again. I would say with personality disorders in particular, like you need some pretty intensive therapy. You know, sometimes there can be a tendency to villainize people that have some of those things.

But I've worked with a lot of people that have recognized that they have some of that junk. they want to work on it and they want to get help and they know that they've hurt people. So I think intensive therapy is needed for personality disorders. That's just my thought and belief. Yeah, yeah. You mentioned that you do some work with the homeless community. And what are some of the impacts of emotional abuse that you see in the homeless community? I mean, a lot of the people that I've worked with have dealt with abuse at some point in their

life. I think like this is the thing about abuse, kind of like addiction, is it doesn't really discriminate at all. It affects people all walks of life, socioeconomic statuses, you name it. People can, it can look great on the outside and there could be like horrendous things going on behind closed doors. So abuse can impact and affect everybody. And, you know, I wrote, I was writing about this for a blog on my site, but, you know, this idea of people being strong enough, like if you're strong enough, you won't suffer from abuse. Or if you're strong enough, you would leave that relationship. And I think that's bullshit.

It's not about strong enough. Sarah was like saying, you know, she didn't recognize a lot of these things that were because nobody does. You're in the early stages of love. You don't recognize red flags because, you know, I could geek out on the brain and what's going on. But, you know, there's all these hormones. Well, there's all these hormones in California.

chemicals that are firing to like bring you together like oxytocin and dopamine It's a reward thing so in the beginning you just kind of kind of see like people kind of get obsessive about that person And they just ignore a lot of things because it feels so good to be in love That's why I tell everybody that I that I work with that are starting a new relationship Everybody puts their best foot forward Nobody shows you their shitty side up front very rarely right they're just kind of like peacocking and, you know, love bombing, you know, like all these great things. So I think it's good to, like, enjoy that and take time and watch and get to know somebody.

Shabas, you were very much in agreement with a lot of what Isaac was saying. Is there anything that you would like to expand on, touch on that he mentioned? Yes, the main thing that I would like to touch on is for those of you in the room that are surviving, or know someone that is a survivor, the number one thing that you need to know is that the abuse was not and is not your fault. Domestic violence is clearly a power and control tactic that people that harm use in order to gain that power over their victim. So to add to what he says, just know that because there are times when, you know, we could be triggered or thoughts could come up in our mind and we feel like gosh I should have did this different I should have did that different and there's absolutely nothing you could have done differently to stop

the person that harmed doing what they did so it's not your fault thank you so much absolutely so can you talk to us a little bit about stand-up classer yeah they are what is their mission and what do you do on a day on a day-to-day basis okay so stand-up placer is a domestic violence sexual assault and human trafficking agency that has been in business for 41 years for Placer County. Our mission is saving lives by empowering survivors and educating the community to stand up

to domestic violence, sexual assault, and human trafficking. Excuse me for getting time, because I'm excited about the work I do. And it's just so much that we provide. We have a 24-hour program. crisis line where you could call in anonymously and talk to a crisis counselor. We have a 24-hour shelter that is all-gender inclusive. We're pet-friendly. We are in an undisclosed location where survivors can stay up to 90 days,

which in most shelters you can only stay 30 days. Another service that we provide at the shelter is it's a 55-bed facility. bed facility. So even with it being a 55 bed facility, it's still not enough space because our crisis line is ringing all the time throughout the day. And there's people that we cannot get into the shelter because we're full. So one of the beautiful things about stand-up plaster is when that does happen, we do have some contracts with different hotels in the area to where we could bring those families in until we can get them in our shelter. That's a whole.

And as far as what I do, I am the housing manager. I have a 24-month program to where I bring people in my program, give them life skills, financial coaching, support groups, and I pay their rent up to two years while they're rebuilding their lives. So they can also receive services. One of the programs that I oversee is this called a one-time assistance program. And this is where if they don't have, they might be, they might have housing lined up, but they can't afford to pay the deposits or even get into a program.

We can help them with that assistance, as well as keep them for maybe six months, maybe keep them for the year just depending as long as they're fleeing or have had the experience and they are a Placer County residents we can assist them and we do also accept out of county it just really depends on how many beds we have available and they can live anywhere they want in Placer County so we don't cherry pick where they live we let them be the ones to pick where they want to live because it's about them taking control and us being trauma informed. Yeah.

Yeah. How do you see organizations like Stand Up Classer impacting the community as a whole? Domestic violence, it affects communities like no other. So if I'm a survivor of domestic violence and I've reached out and the community is helping me, it helps my family, it helps my neighbors, it reduces crime and it reduces harm. So that's what Stand Up Classer's focus is, is to help harm reduction. One person coming out of DV can save a whole family and community. And the domestic violence is on the rise, especially in Placer County, especially with human trafficking.

We're seeing them very young. We've already had two human traffic seniors. We've had to turn away 500 people from our shelter because of no space. domestic violence and sexual assault, it costs Placer County $500,000 for one incident. So supporting this cause and not just stand up Placer, but any DV agency, your dollars count, your volunteer services count. Anything that you feel like you can shop it

at our thrift store, facilitating a support group, just whatever it is you feel that you have, it makes a difference in the community and it does reduce harm. And I'm a living witness because when I was in my DV situation, I knew nothing about a domestic violence shelter. I just had to endure. And so it was just by the grace of God

that I somehow had a hedge of protection around me to be able to flee that situation and then find out in being in that situation, I learned this was my passion and this was my purpose. Thank you, Sondon. watch I feel like you need to get for the work of nonprofits such as stand-up placer. Okay, well, you can start by liking us on Facebook, following us on Instagram, Twitter. You can go to our website, which is standup placer.org.

You can donate your gently used items to our thrift boutique in Roseville on Santa Clara Drive. If you know where the Hobby Lobby's at, we're right in there. and just, you know, have us come give a training at your organization or at your clubs or, you know, things like that. Yeah. And Tiff, correct me of everyone, do we have a donation? Yes, there is a donation jar in the front if you are a person who is mature enough to carry cash. Or you can go to the website and donate. It's very easy to access.

It will be linked in the show notes. For people who are here, there are pamphlets and things. like that. So you'll find these out there and some pamphlets. Yeah, so that so more information about donating, volunteering, and I assume is on the website. Yes, it is. Great. And you guys are at standup placer. Standup placer. And then for like Instagram, Twitter. Yes, stand up placer. Great. And then Isaac, what is your, where can we find you online? I also have one of those Facebooks. So you can find me at whole wellness therapy.com. linked in the show notes, yes?

I'll try to remember. Okay. Okay. So, time for questions. I think you guys must have to know your questions. Yes. I have one. It is struggling with them.

It's resistant to accepting that, and it's really negatively impacting their life. What are some strategies to do? Yeah, that's a really tough one. It's a really tough position to be in. I would, like, frame this kind of, like, through that lens of dealing with some sort of addiction, right? If you were struggling with an alcohol problem, chances are that friends and family coming to you and saying, hey, you've got a problem is not going to work.

Unfortunately, it might get you to start to think about something like that, but the tone of that is really important, how you approach that. Until that person is really ready to face that stuff in their own life, there's unfortunately little that you can do other than just say, hey, I think something's going on and I see this. thing potentially impacting your life and I don't know you know because you're dealing with it but I'm here for you if you need anything you know and just kind of show up not a lot of people these days show up for people and sometimes the best thing you can do is just give your presence to somebody else without trying to dictate anything can I kind of piggyback me and I also think that removing the stigma because there's a lot of stigma surrounded you know around mental health and stuff and so if we could like just reduce that stigma not reduce it but just eradicated

you know let people know you know if you're not feeling well help is available and it doesn't mean you're crazy or that doesn't mean any of those negative things another question oh yes people when they're in that ductal state and that herically or injured and the day is so on the contact of her and over here at this employee and they put some pictures and they can't over talk to you and she was called and she's got with that so um and i believe that i wasn't actually classified in their by and crime either um which is just a right so what can be done to start seeing change happen so that people can be better served one of the things that i would like to say about that is i'm one of them like

radical people that's always at the state capital. Go, go, go, go, go. Raising hell. I want to them people. And so, you know, that's one of the ways that, you know, to get involved is, you know, have these stories for your state legislatures when they have public hearings. As a matter of fact, just last year I was at the state capital asking for $50 million increase for housing, for mental health services.

not for just victims of domestic violence, but also for the people that harm, because you can't help people heal if you're just healing like this. So that's one of the things that you can do. Get involved. Get involved with the partnership. That's a great platform. When we have those conferences and when we're asking survivors to be at the table, that's exactly what we need. We need those voices at the table so that we can take that before hearings to make the change. We need you to be a stakeholder in it. Well, preach. All right, what else?

What about Placer County do you think makes domestic violence higher? What are the, what do certain counties that have those higher rates have in common? So what makes Placer County such a higher place for it is because people feel it doesn't happen there. Because Placer County, there's money there. Whereas in the inner city, it's expected to happen in Sacramento. Because there's a whole lot of, Sacramento is very diverse. Placer County's not. So that's why that's one of the number one hubs for it.

Yeah. When you live in a nice house, no one checks on you. Exactly. Because that was my experience growing up. No one checked on me. Exactly. My parents had a nice house and a track home in Placer County and they were Republican voters

and, you know, had like, you know, 3.5 dogs or whatever. Yeah. And it's like, it's just no one worries about that person because of the way that we've, because of the stigma that we're putting on this behavior is that it's like this only happens to others and this doesn't happen to my neighbor.

And that's, that is, I think, part of the problem. That's how people get away with it. That's exactly how people get. away with it. One of the main people are trafficked is by the Gallery of Mall. Sunsplash, Gallery and Mall. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And we're seeing them traffic as Youngest 10. Youngest 10 and elderly. So yes, it definitely happens in all of our backyards. None of us are immune. Yeah. Question right here. So we're both teachers actually in in Buster County and we see teach high school.

So we see a lot of signs of kids, teenagers getting involved in abusive relationships, but they have no reference point or a lot of times they either have never seen it themselves or in their mind this is just, you know, they've seen it in a TV show and it was romanticized to them. So they think that something like checking on someone's phone or the time is regular or, you know, things like that that once you've experienced a lot,

bit more you start to understand the signs a little better but you know 15-year-old doesn't always so what advice would you give about helping kids sort of start to see those things and understand those things in such a way that going forward they're more aware of how to how to either avoid those situations or get out of those situations before they become too engulfed in those situations so one of the things that I recommend as I also oversee our outreach and prevention program and we're in the schools so if you would like us to come and you know do a a workshop for your school we're more than happy to do that and teach we it's called teaching healthy relationships healthy

boundaries the warning signs the red flags to pay attention to so and we're from middle school all the way up to college we're now in Sierra College to where we're taking that we have the athletes program to teach them how to be advocates. So we're starting at that level and we're bringing it on down. We gotta start young. We have to really get into our institutions and give the education in order to break the cycle.

I mean, yeah, I've worked with high schoolers for a long time and I think it's sad that we don't talk about emotional intelligence in our education system. And there's a lot of inherent kind of emotion myths that we face in this country in particular, you know, that there are good and their bad emotions and there's a right way and a wrong way to feel, and that showing emotion is weakness and all this garbage stuff. So being able to like model that when you can when appropriate is really healthy for kids because they're watching you. And figuring out what those emotion

myths that you've bought into in your own life are and addressing that, I really feel like the more that we get, you know, I've said this already, but the more that my big beliefs is the more that we get connected, right, to ourselves, that improves our relationships with other people. So being able to check in and start to see emotions as what they are, is these things that are there to protect you, to keep you alive, and to listen to them and see what they're trying to say to you. Was there a missionary? Yes. Actually, I had a teenage daughter, Tiffany knows her, and I went through very similar to Sarah's, And I wish that she had had resources before me.

What could I do as a parent? Because I also have a young son in advance to kind of alert that to case of pattern. I mean, she was a therapy. The second we figured out what was going on, she was a therapy in honesty, turned her life around and she just sent her an apology. She's doing awesome.

Horrible. What could we do early on? One of the things that I would would record recommend is always giving them that talk of how much you love them, how worthy they are. And, you know, knowing your worth does miracles. And it is sometimes just that, just that right there, just, you know, know, no, I love you, know that I'm always going to be here for you. If you ever need to talk, you know, the door is always open.

Safety is always first. and not be so quick to judge. I think that's where we mess up as parents. I know when I was in my situation and I told my mother what was happening to me, her response was, well, what did you do? Shevess, you got a smart mouth. You know, you problem, I'm like,

wow, there's nothing that I could ever do to anybody to make them hurt me the way they did. So if her message would have been different, more like, I'm sorry that's happening to you. When you're ready to go, I'm here for you. Whatever you need, there's never ever going to be a door closed to you. And that I love you. Those are the most powerful words you can say.

And they might not always come to you in the beginning because your mom, your dad. But as long as they know, they do have that platform. Yeah. And just I'm hearing a little bit of what you said. you, I think you probably did a lot more than you even realized. Just by you and your husband being invested in therapy, you sort of normalized that it's okay to get help. The unfortunate part is, like, you can't protect, like, the people that you love from pain. It's about teaching them how to deal with that pain and being able to process. And, like, when we see someone

hurting, right, we want to take that away as quickly as we can. But sometimes that can be the wrong thing to do because there's a lot of lesson that comes in pain. And speaking to your point, too, you know, validation goes a whole, a long way. And sometimes people think like validating is like agreeing with someone's viewpoint and saying like, okay, this behavior is all right. It's not that. It's just about understanding like why they might be thinking and feeling and behaving the way that they are based on what they've got going on. You know, the teenage brain brain is a fascinating thing because like it's developing in some really cool ways and then you know they still can have impulsivities that seem totally like logical and justified to them.

A lot of us look for only external validation to make us okay and you know I do a meditation group at the homeless shelter that I work at and at the end of it I always tell them that you are worthy and that you are loved and you're more than enough just the way that you are are. And the thing about abuse is it really starts to make that inner critic, like even louder. And that's a hard thing to weather and deal with and recognize. And it takes a lot of intentional work, a lot, months, sometimes years of paying attention to that spot inside of you. So I am always just amazed by people showing up in my office or calling me and saying, like, hey, I need some help, because that's such a gutsy, courageous thing to do.

And I tell my clients, like, look, I went to therapy school, right? And even when I go see my therapist, I've had tremendous anxiety about that experience. So it's, like, such a empowering thing. Like, I feel like that space is so sacred, and I feel honored to be a part of it because it's such a strong, empowered move to make to say, hey, I don't know what to do with this, but I need a little bit of support. Thank you so much for sharing your experience. Yes.

As a people pleaser and someone that does look for affirmation from people and also trust, I think the main things like I trust people before they give me a reason to trust them. How would you, what's the most healthy way to take action and express to a friendship relationship that is toxic or that is not helpful to your life that you do want to cut off? Yeah, that's a really good question. I think it does depend on a number of factors. Like if doing so, having that conversation is going to cause you more harm, then just, you know, cut ties and move on.

You know, same things. You block them on social media. Also, sometimes when we do struggle with that, people-pleasing part, we're spending all this energy because we're trying to tell that other person, like, look, look, like, if you just understand, like, I know you won't feel this way, or I know you won't treat me that way, right? and that doesn't work. That's a losing battle.

So I think that just being able to recognize when that urge is coming in, like being able to say, like, I'm doing that thing. Like, that's why I tell people to tune in. Because you can get a lot of information by just paying attention and doing so in a non-judgmental way to what's going on in here. One of the things that works for me is being someone who has been through a lot of, you know, pain and rejection. And in a sense, I had become numb to it.

But then I had to just tell myself, you know what? It stops right here. So I have prayed and asked for the gift of goodbye. And I have it. If people come into my life and I feel that negative energy and that toxicity, and I'm like, no, I don't, I don't owe you. you an explanation for anything. It just stops right here and goodbye and there's no looking back. But it took a long time for me to get there. And because it took so long, I really guard that

and I protect that. Your peace is priceless. I understand that. Ooh. Yeah. Yes, question right here. And watching family and parents just that there can be those positive affirmations around two people the exact same positive operations and one person can move back to the internal belief about themselves and it can change their life and one person does not. They continue to believe I'm not worthy. What would you say as like a potential like encourager of someone else, how can we deliver those positive

affirmations in a way that will encourage internalization and a belief change at that core? I have one word for it. It's just don't even let it be your words. Let's just let it be your words. it be your action. Action is everything. Sometimes, you know, people hear affirmations, but it doesn't saturate. So just show it. You know, if you tell someone you love them or that they're worthy, you show them that, you know, you give them that little nugget. Sometimes it's just planting that seed. And then we just have to believe that someone will bring the water and it will blossom. So things have to sometimes, they've got to die in the ground before it could have life. So I'm one of those metaphoric type of people.

But just keep doing what you're doing. Show the love. Don't let your words be action. When I'm working with people that are kind of struggling with some of this stuff, sometimes I have them do an exercise where I want them to identify what their values are, like what's important to them. and I think when people do that, it's like the first time they've ever done that. And one of the main reasons I have folks do that is because when you understand like what your

core values are, like what's important to you, you can then hold those values up to any relationship, any job, any big decision in your life, and have a lot of clarity on whether or not those relationships or people or that job lines up with those values. And if it doesn't, then it's probably a good time to, like, trust your gut and be like, ah, this looks really good, but there's all these things that aren't lining up and maybe go the other way. But I think people have to find that for themselves. Like, you can be that encourager. Sometimes people get energy, too, from when they're at that space of that poor self-worth,

feeding into like, no, no, no, you're not that way. You're not that way. Right? And then you get in this role of trying to convince them over and over because, and they might not even recognize but they're getting energy from that sort of dance like that negative energy is still attention right and that's a hard thing today because i say that but i don't want to be like oh that's what everybody does all the time sometimes that's what goes on like an alinan i don't know it's like a support group for people who are in relationships with alcoholics and addicts

one thing that they talk about and their support groups a lot is like how you you can become addicted to chaos. And especially if you are sort of grown and created in that chaotic environment, it's really all you know. And so you don't know how to decipher sort of how healthy relationships work. And so you're kind of figuring it out. And so, like, sometimes it just takes time, like, and experiencing real healthy relationships. And that just hasn't happened for those people yet.

So they just literally don't know what that looks like, but like you can show them. Yeah. That's precisely why like it takes most people that are in abusive relationships, an average of like seven to 12 times to leave before they actually do. Because that abusive environment becomes your new normal, right? And like there's this really cool protective thing in your body called homeostasis. And so your body's going to work really hard to resist change of any kind, right? right even when that change is a good change so these are things to be aware of that that can become really comfortable and so those signals those alarms are turned off right here my phrase

kind of still processing so much in two parts of it like so someone who is like so intuitive in deeply like it did that's what she said continue something was wrong everything was right community, like, what does that you look like? It's messy. But I believe that people can't change. So that's like one half, and the other half is like dealing with someone who is maybe like an abuser emotionally, but maybe so not so intensely. Is it possible that you care about this person? How do you help walk them through this?

Like, I care about you and I want you to not do this. Yeah. Yeah. How do you have tools to do that? Mm-hmm. So the first part of your question, it's really rough and it's really painful and ugly. And the main requirement there is a willingness to want to do the work. If there's no willingness, then nobody is going to force anybody into any kind of change.

The second part is like sometimes the best thing you can do is walk away and remove yourself from something that's toxic that's harm you. you, right? Because then you're committed to this certain outcome that's happening. And this is what happens in abusive relationships. Like they think, okay, if I can just love this person more and enough and better in all of these ways, they're going to change. They're not going to change until they want to. And sometimes compassion is metaphorically, you know, giving somebody a right hook. It's like getting the hell out of there. Sometimes that's the most compassionate thing to do is say enough is enough. I'm not going to allow this. I love you, but you need to get some help for that. I always think like what you allow you approve of. So the best way that you can teach someone to stop acting abusive

is to say you don't get more. Bye. Get help. Get help. Greg Lewis. That's the thing that I had to do is I had to walk away from everything. I mean, I walked away from my place. I walked away from my place. I walked away from my car, I literally became homeless in order to get out with my three children. Because I had no family in this state, all my family was in Indiana. But I said, I would rather sleep under a bridge with my three kids before I put up with this another day. I'm leaving, and I did not look back. Because we become accustomed to a certain way of life and, you know, it's hard starting over and being a single mother with three kids and love, you know, it goes on and on and on. But your life has meaning.

And not everybody makes it out. And I had to tell myself, Cheves, there's two things that's going to happen. Either you're going to leave and you're going to struggle and you're going to rebuild your life. or you're going to get your first set of flowers from your person that's harming you, and it's going to be on top of a casket. Now, you choose what you're going to do. And as hard as it was, sis, I had to do what I had to do. And you can rebuild your life after domestic violence.

I am 22 years into the DV movement, living a violent, freed life. Happy, healthy, and single. Again, just like a little bit about that validation piece that I was talking to about earlier. You know, we, we as humans, like, especially if you're in a relationship, you can be abusive to the person that you love from time to time, say the wrong thing out of anger, okay? I love how you always say knucklehead. Anyone can be a knucklehead.

That's right. It's like a really nice way of putting it when I talk to them, Michael. I always give this example. But if I came home and had a really stressful day at work, and I was like a jerk to my wife, right? An example of validation with her saying like, hey, Isaac, I understand you had a stressful, long day, and you can't take it out on me, right?

It's like she's validating where I'm coming from and then setting a limit. Like, you're not going to talk to me. You can't be short with me just because you had. And so I think that that's being, like, if somebody's trying to work on it, like we can't expect they're going to be perfect. So it's giving a little bit of grace for, you know,

when I work with married couples, you know, it's really teaching them some of that and how to like emotionally regulate before they try to have like tough conversations. So you can validate those things, but set your limit also. I get where you're coming from and it's still not okay.

Like I get that you grew up in a really abusive home and you can't be abusive to me. Right? Yeah, yeah. That's something that I've actually been talking to my therapist a while. about as I've been learning about abuse and emotional abuse and had my own experiences with emotional abuse and grew up an emotionally abusive home, which was a huge light bulb for me. I didn't even know is, it's like I have all this information.

And now there are times when I almost am like, oh God, am I being abusive? Oh, God, is my friend being abusive? Oh, God is my husband being abusive? Oh, God, we're all abusive. But yeah, it's like we, yeah, you know, you are in knucklehead. You have a long day. You lash out. But that's when I come to my therapist, I'm like, am I being used?

And she's like, no, let's talk about what actual abuse is. And she reminds me what that is and reminds me, no, you're okay, you're working through your stuff, you're safe, you're in a good relationship. And that's, and that is so helpful for me when I'm, like, working through and learning about all of this stuff is like having someone there to be like, talk to me. Am I crazy? Am I abusive? And, you know, having something that knows what I'm talking to? I think that we have time for one more question if there's anything yes right here okay okay maybe it's such you something like that spiritual abuse oh yes

I'm talking about it about it like to all the school overseas that and also like to all kinds of abuse sexual abuse which is so common I guess I'm hearing a healing process through that and I know it's such a one there is story and also like to see that a lot and you're coming from victims and you know that whole state fundamental and that. Thank you so much for sharing that. Yeah well we we definitely do see the spiritual abuse. It's how it's intertwined with the other dynamics of abuse and maybe Isaac can speak to this more but I know that it does show up in a lot of ways for our survivors to where they're being manipulated and controlled by the Bible and different

you know ritual types of things and we do connect them with therapy and it's kind of like pulling back the layer of an onion you know you you there's so much that's there and we just have to be mindful and delicate and understanding that trauma of just peeling it back and I'm gonna let you take that I so appreciate you bringing that up because I don't think that it's something that people talk about too often. I have a whole section on my website devoted to spiritual abuse because, you know, people use religion as a tool as a weapon sometimes to do some really horrible things. When you study some of that, it's like always usually the antithesis of what the message of that religion is

trying to say so it's like mind-boggling in a lot of ways but it can really cloud a lot of things right it can if you had like this vibrant spiritual life now like that's in question and then when that's in question like you know you feel like a part of yourself is missing because maybe something that could have brought you joy and meaning in your life has now been colored in like this really awful way so the work starts with trying again like I always start with people of tuning into their own self. Like, I can't fix anybody. I can help them figure out and see patterns

and support them in that, but they're gonna have to do that hard work. And I will sit with them and be with them in that, but there'll be a lot of that on your own that you have to kind of go into those spots that are really painful, that maybe you haven't, you've kept the lid on for years and years.

And to do that, like, in a way that's very honoring of where you're at too, not trying to rip the band-aid off. We want a lot of quick fixes in this culture, right? And you cannot quick fix when you've suffered abuse of any kind. It'll show up in other relationships if you don't. Take a look at it now. Thank you guys.

I know we would love to talk to them all night, but we only have the space until 10. So let's give us and Isaac. Let's keep having these conversations. Let's keep normalizing these conversations. Let's keep looking at each other in the eye. We can connect online, but it's so important to. connect flesh to flesh face to face and talk about this stuff. It's so important. So Tiffany, I will give you the last word. I just want to say thank you so much for coming. And I, when we

talked about doing this months ago, we were kind of like, I hope someone comes. So the fact that you all came is like so awesome. And just thank you to everybody that was part of the event tonight. and I just really appreciate everyone's vulnerability and honesty, and it's just really fucking cool that you guys came. It's really, really cool. Yeah, and we'll be here in, like, space till, like, 9.30, like, hanging out, and then we have to, like, I guess, clean or something. All right.

Well, thank you guys so much for coming to something like that.