Something Was Wrong - S21 Ep19: Searching for Florence Okpealuk and Joseph Balderas with Payne Lindsey of Up and Vanished

Episode Date: October 3, 2024

*Content Warning: murder, missing persons, bigotry, racism, violence, distressing themes.  ***If you have information on the disappearance of Florence Okpealuk or Joseph Balderas please email [e-mail] or call 404-410-6660***Up and Vanished: https://upandvanished.com/ Info on Up and Vanished Season 4: https://upandvanished.com/season-4/ On Amazon Music: https://tinyurl.com/vanishedsww On Apple: https://tinyurl.com/applevanished On Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/vanishedspotify Tenderfoot TV: https://tenderfoot.tv/ For a list of related free and confidential resources, please visit: http://www.somethingwaswrong.com/resources FBI Internet Crime Complaint Center (IC3): https://www.ic3.gov/ Follow Something Was Wrong:Website: somethingwaswrong.com IG: instagram.com/somethingwaswrongpodcastTikTok: tiktok.com/@somethingwaswrongpodcast Follow Tiffany Reese:Website: tiffanyreese.me IG: instagram.com/lookieboo [e-mail] The SWW theme Song is U Think U, by Glad Rags. The S21 cover art is by the Amazing Sara Stewart. 

If you're serious about growing this new year, what you put into your mind actually matters. And as someone who lives and breathes careers and self-development, even I get overwhelmed trying to do it all. Between work, life, and trying to better yourself, self-care can start to feel like just another thing on the to-do list. But investing in yourself doesn't have to be complicated. And with Audible, it isn't. It's time to take care of you. And who better to help than the top voices in well-being all in one place. With Audibles Well-Being Collection, you can level up your career, finances, relationships,

sleep, parenting, or mindset. Whether you want motivation, clarity, or practical advice, there is something there to support you every step of the way. I listen while I commute, clean, work, or just when I need a little bit of downtime. You'll hear from best-selling authors Brene Brown and Jay Shetty, Chef Jamie Oliver, finance expert Rachel Rogers, and popular parenting guides like Raising Good Humans. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a 30-day trial at outable.com. Membership is 1495 a month after 30 days. Cancel any time.

There's more to imagine when you listen. Something was wrong is intended for mature audiences, as it discusses topics that can be upsetting, such as emotional, physical, and sexual violence, rape, and murder. Content warnings for each episode and confidential resources for survivors can be found in the episode notes. Some survivor names have been changed for anonymity purposes. pseudonyms are given to minors in these stories for their privacy and protection. Testimony shared by guests of the show is their own and does not necessarily reflect the views of myself, broken cycle media, or wondering.

The podcast and any linked materials should not be construed at. medical advice, nor is the information a substitute for professional medical expertise or treatment. Thank you so much for listening. You think you know me, you don't know me well. I am super excited to welcome Payne Lindsay to our show this week. I have been a longtime follower of your work pain since 2016 when you launched, which is crazy to me that it's been that long. The world was a different place then.

You referenced that going into the fourth season that you're coming into this season eight years later, right? I think so. I feel old when you say that. I know. It's like me having a 15-year-old now. I'm like, I can't hide my age now. Yeah, it is what it is.

Yes. It is what it is. What I loved about your style of what I classify as like audio documentaries is that it really brings people alongside you in the journey and you have such a natural ability for your writing really lends to it and you're very likable, easy to follow. You break it down in a way that's just really approachable. And I think that it makes even the most brand new person to these sorts of investigations feel like they might be able to help in some way. Is that an active choice that you made from the beginning to like bring listeners along your journey?

I think I just naturally started doing it that way because in August 2016, which is forever ago, as we know, I really only knew of a true crime podcast in the narrative way in something like serial. Sarah Caney did the same thing in her own style. I felt like a fish out of water investigating an unsolved missing person's case. I felt compelled to share that part of it, that, hey, I don't know what I'm doing here. This is crazy because I felt that way. I've always written from a first-person narrative.

My favorite movies have narrators, like an overarching narrator in some way. I just like that style of storytelling. And I've always made up and vanished in every other podcast I've made into something that I think that I would want to listen to. Not that I want to listen to myself because I really don't. But in the way of like hold my hand a little bit and let me be a fly on the wall to this insane investigation and not feel like I'm so distant from it and gently remind them how real this is and in the best way possible without conjuring up some fake true crime suspense, show them

the stakes and the real life part of this, whether that's insight into my own experience or everyone else's. If we show that across the board, it can feel like a real thing and it should because they're real people and their real problems. Yeah, absolutely. Leading up to 2016, what were you doing in life? Like, what sort of led you on this path and made you get into this kind of work? It was definitely a like, fuck it decision where I had been doing music videos for years. Since I was a kid, I was always writing, creating, singing, dancing.

I was that kid. As I grew up in my 20s, I was. was in a band and I was rapping. 2000s rap, white boy, silly stupid shit. It's honestly pretty good. I'm not going to lie. Well, thank you. We had a lot of fun and we were doing videos on YouTube. It started out with parody songs and then we did original music and I got burnt out on being the starving artist and decided to take my video skills more seriously. So I made my own company and started directing music videos professionally for other artists, which it did not start out that way.

I say professionally, eventually, because I think my first client was for like 300 bucks, and it was some random rapper from Craigslist. I sort of hit pause on my career as an artist in the sense of trying to be a music artist for the rest of my life. Not that I would never do that again or explore that. I was trying to make better career choices and I was tired of being broke. So I was doing that. Can I use this creativity for others to have at least something to count on, so to speak? Yeah. So at that point where I had done that for years now and I was, I think 27, 28, I wasn't fulfilled doing what I was doing. I felt like I was just making content for everyone else and not really reaping the benefits of it. And I was, I was

of it and always chasing a check. And I wanted to go back to my childhood dreams of making my own content and being sustainable doing that, which is really like all I've ever really wanted was to be able to create and then pay my bills with that. I've always been into true crime, like forensic files, unsolved mysteries, as a casual viewer, that was always my sham, always into suspense stories, true detective, that kind of stuff's my favorite. and I was just sitting in my house one day. I was like, how does one become the person who does that? Like, the guy who made the jinx, did he just decide that I'm going to go do an investigative

documentary? It was amazing to me that I was so gripped by a documentary in that way and they had a real influence on the case. And then I binge cereal. I was like, okay, what if I set out to do a documentary on a coal case that I pick and find in my home state? and then the podcast will be like a proof of concept for something bigger. At the time, I didn't even know that you could monetize a podcast or that would even be a

business at all. So that's really how it started was just me jumping headfirst in and trying to solve a missing person's case in South Georgia, Tara Grinstead, Ossila, Georgia, and making a podcast up and vanished around that. And in my mind, at the time, it was really a stepping stone, the first step into doing something bigger than that. And then it became what it is today through the months and years. You ended up having a huge role in that case. Where is that case now? So after years of just pushing it back because the government is good at doing that,

Ryan Duke, who was originally charged with Terrigan Seds murder, he was found not guilty of the murder. That was really because the state did pretty much fucking nothing during the five years that they had to build a strong case. There was a lot of animosity, I think, towards the podcast in a way that maybe even clouded their objective goal. Because everybody was like, what's a fucking podcast still in 2016? Totally. Yes. I myself was like, I don't know how to answer that. I don't know either. But during, Season one, we unearthed a lot of new information, even like town secret type stuff. And people, not really the local law enforcement, but like at a state level, the Georgia

Bureau of Investigation were at odds because they didn't want to share anything. And they seem to be getting more active all of a sudden because of the podcast. That was cool. To me, that was progress or momentum. I wasn't really setting out to take claim or ownership of solving anything. I just wanted to make some sort of difference. They eventually made two arrests and essentially they just kind of bungled the whole thing and turned a blind eye to some strong information that was definitely out there from the podcast.

I think that ultimately hurt them because his defense did not do that. They brought in everything and was able to paint a picture that at least made more sense to the jury. Has anyone been convicted? Of terror's murder? No. It's a shame. It's hard to like do this work, working on cases and putting your absolute all into it and then still at the end of the day or at the mercy of this system, which is unfortunately, in my opinion, a very broken system. And something that stood out to me that you said in season four is, I'm paraphrasing, but it's like I can do my job.

I can present these people with the facts of this case. I can present them with all the interviews I've collected, all the information I've collected. And I can't make them do their job. And I feel like that's the wall that I run into all the time, is I can literally create 70-page docs, pass them off to detectives with every interview, like gatekeeping nothing, absolutely nothing, and still have no movement on a case. How do you navigate that frustration as you're going through these cases that are so cold and often neglected?

I honestly just go into every case knowing that and thinking that. If I'm already there, it's probably because of some version of that. That's true. That's why people are reaching out to us because they're already desperate and it's already gone cold, so to speak. I'm going in assuming that they're not going to cooperate with me. Not that I'm not going to try. I always hope that there's some sort of decent relationship or a relationship at all with

me and us who are covering a missing person's case. But the majority of the time that just does not happen. I think there's a lot of ego involved sometimes, and it's not their desire to talk about a case they weren't able to solve. I think a lot of people are just offended by someone else coming in there. And really, it's not a competition to us. And I think if professionals view it that way, it speaks volumes as to what the hell their problem is in the first place. Something that I hear a lot from, whether it be police or FBI agents that I reach out to, is they claim like a lack of resources, a lack of staff. and I know that's something that you often run into on your cases.

How do you think we would address that problem? Is it a matter of staffing? Is it a matter of training? It's such a vague thing to say, like lack of resources. What do you mean? Like, what do you need? To get paid more, to have more officers, to have a detective, a cold case unit. I think it just depends on specifically where and what.

But I think it just takes people who care, like the right people. not the people with egos who became a cop for the wrong reasons. I've talked to some good cops and some bad cops, and all the good ones acknowledge that there's a lot of shitty ones. And I've talked to some good cops who really care and will go out of their way to assure the family that something's being done or try new things and not be as gatekeeping or stuck in the 1960s or something like pre-internet on how things work.

I have a little bit of hope, but in a place like no in Alaska, they're not there yet. I was recently following up on this car accident that happened related to season 20. When I reached out to the police, they were like, honey, we have one cop car. Basically, like, your expectations are insane, that you expect us to have a functioning website or that we actually have an officer that's hired to do that job. Your assumption is insane. The more variety of states and things that I look into, the more you see the difference. In season four, as well as season three, you focus on the missing appearance of multiple indigenous women.

Can you speak to the importance of those types of cases and how do you select the cases that you decide to move forward on? MMIW missing and murdered indigenous women, it's been a problem for years. And it's been largely under the radar. In the past couple of years, it's picked up more national attention in general. hey, this is happening, but for a long time, generations, they've been overlooked. And this was just brought to my attention over the years of doing true crime podcast. I mean, that's how I learned even the term MMIW is because people would leave it in a comment or they would say, hey, please go look at this case.

It's a missing and murdered indigenous person and they're not being looked into. And I'm like, okay, that's a problem. I made a conscious decision to use up and vanished specifically the platform as a tool. In the ways that it's worked in the past and getting new information, if I could apply that in any way to move the needle on a case that would otherwise normally get less coverage, then it feels like I can make some sort of difference. even if it's just mainstream platforming the case and putting it before other people's eyes and showing the community and family and friends and other people that there are people out there

who care and that this is a problem. For the last two seasons, that's been a theme because it is a problem. And a lot of these cases go unnoticed or unsolved strictly because they're indigenous. And there's been a long history of that. So I consciously was like, the next season needs to be a story about a victim who would otherwise not get as much coverage. And that's how I can immediately start helping in some way. If you're serious about growing this new year, what you put into your mind actually matters. And as someone who lives and breeds careers and self-development, even I get overwhelmed trying to do it all.

Between work, life, and trying to better yourself, self-care can start to feel like just another thing on the to-do list. But investing in yourself doesn't have to be complicated. And with Audible, it isn't. It's time to take care of you. And who better to help than the top voices in well-being all in one place? With Audible's Well-Being Collection, you can level up your career, finances, relationships, sleep, parenting, or mindset. Whether you want motivation, clarity, or practical advice, there is something there to support you every step of the way. I listen while I commute, clean, work, or just when I need a little bit of downtime.

You'll hear from best-selling authors Brene Brown and Jay Shetty, Chef Jamie Oliver, finance expert Rachel Rogers, and popular parenting guides like Raising Good Humans. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a 30-day trial at outable.com. Membership is 1495 a month after 30 days. Cancel anytime. There's more to imagine when you listen. That's really what I appreciated hearing that in season four and why I wanted to have you on the show, especially is listeners, you feel compelled. You want to try to help. Is there a way for listeners, aside taking in the content and learning about the details?

Is there things that they could be doing to help support your efforts or help support the families? I think that just awareness in general is number one. It's the easiest thing that anyone can do is spread awareness of the issue. In certain cases like season four, a lot of people are listening in the actual town. And there's people who are involved in the case and are friends or family of persons of interest. And they've heard things. And when they start to hear people they know or themselves on the podcast, I would like like to encourage more people to come forward. And I think that it starts to create this sort of

shift in momentum, tilting the scales where you have all these people talking. Who's not talking? That's just kind of like a natural human observation that I don't even have to assert. People can just pick that up on their own. You'd be surprised. Sometimes people from far away can connect the dot that we couldn't or the police couldn't or offer a new perspective or have some little piece of information that breaks something wide open. So in a real way, up and vanish, especially this season that's actively going on, if you're a listener, especially if you're someone who is closer to the case or in Alaska, you can most certainly help because you're either from there or have resources or people that you know in information that could be helpful, no matter

how close to it it is or not. What kind of things are you doing to keep yourself safe when you're working on a case like this? Really, we just try to think 10 steps ahead. Being ahead of the curve, we worked on both of these cases for almost a year before we did anything, before we told anybody, before we made any sort of announcement. So we were in Nome multiple times where people didn't really know who we were unless we told them why we were there. And we had like a general cover story for why we were there for people that we didn't want to know. I think we said we were doing some sort of like national geographic thing, like a documentary on the wilderness or something. We did stand out a little bit. And we didn't want to say outright to at least certain people

that we were there on behalf of these families trying to solve these missing persons cases because we didn't know who to trust. We didn't want that cat out of the bag. And if our goal was to actually solve this, which it is, that would not be of any benefit to us. But eventually, it comes out and people do know. And now they really know. And from Nome, at least, they're on the lookout for that or they're aware of that and they have an opinion about that.

My friend Cooper had first pointed out Florence's case and she went missing in 2020. For weeks, I was looking into it and just reading what I could online, which there wasn't very much. And from what I could find, it just looked like it was very suspicious. And she did not just walk off on her own or something. It looked like there was probably foul play involved. They weren't getting a proper investigation. At the same time, there was another unsolved missing person's case, Joseph Balduris. And in my inbox, I had an email from both families, kind of near the same time.

from years ago, and they had reached out basically knowing what Up in Vantage was and having listened to it and asking if we would cover their case in the podcast. And it's the first time that's ever happened in that way for an official season of the show where they knew what this was and reached out and said, hey, will you cover my family's story? immediately we were able to establish a strong relationship with the families and friends and get some good insight from the community itself who's been experiencing the lack of investigating. We wanted to raise the stakes a little bit too. If we're going to go to Nome, Alaska, we weren't just going to try to solve one case. There's 3,000 people here. It would be odd, I think, to neglect one of those cases.

it's such a small place where the same names start to resurface because, you know, it's the same police department. It's the same court system. It's the same person at the bar. So eventually the lines kind of started blurring in our own internal investigation, which will become a lot more apparent down the line as you see these cases kind of merging together. Not in the sense of same persons of interest or same things that happen to them, but the same problems affecting. different people. The same patterns in the case and also like how they're investigated and how word travels. I was like puffing on my inhaler listening to the episode where you go to the bar as your fake Facebook self with your buddy Cooper who was also, I think, using a pseudonym to meet up with Organ John. First of all, Oregon John's voice, the second I heard it, my skin literally crawled.

There's just an essence to what I believe psychopaths feel like when you talk to them and it was definitely giving that for me. And then him sending you completely insane videos of him like shooting guns and stuff. You're just like, this guy is a live wire to say the least. How did you stay calm in that conversation? Were you internally losing it? Because you did a really good job of being like, fuck no, man. I'm not with them. To date, to me it feels like the craziest thing I've ever done. Catfish, a suspect in a murder case. There was a lot of self-doubt and anxiety about whether or not, he really believed my story that I was not Payne Lindsay and I was this other guy. I was really concerned about that.

But over time, I just became convinced that I really truly think that he thinks I'm this other guy. And for whatever reason, he definitely just wants to talk to a stranger or at least is willing to. As crazy as it sounds, maybe I should keep proceeding as this fake guy, which was not like the plan in the first place per se. It was more so to figure out where he was. But we just made an entire backstory. And there was two of us.

I, as much as I could in the moment, wore my hat low, we're wearing winter gear. And it's a darker bar. If he had Googled me or something, maybe it would take a minute. Also, like, we knew that there was a chance that in the first 10 seconds, he could be like, you're paying Lindsay and the whole thing's over. So we had a plan for every possible outcome. We did not know what to expect at all, but we got there probably like three hours before he was supposed to meet us and set up and talked it over every detail that we needed to match

and creative ways to steer the conversation back to Nome in the case or even get there at all in the first place without seeming suspicious because that is weird. When you hear in the podcast, I think it ends up being like 23 minutes or so. and there's some more that we didn't put in there, but it was a two and a half hour conversation we had. And obviously, we did not talk about the case for two and a half hours, because that's not what he was even there meeting about. We were completely floored at just how open he was talking the way he did. And he brought up Nome on his own. Within the first five minutes, he brought up Nome. That was our entry point. We're like, oh, no, oh yeah. We know where Nome is,

and we start talking about it, and then we can get to, why did you leave No? He starts telling us this story about Florence and people accusing him of murdering her. And I think in an attempt to change the subject, he says some really crazy stuff about how he knows that she was murdered by some other guy and she's put in this barrel and very specific things that he should not be saying if they're not true at all. In the moment, he does not think he's being accorded. Just for clarity, like in the state of Alaska, you're allowed to do that. It's a one-party state.

I'm not afraid to go talk as me to somebody. But I debated this one for a while. And I just knew in my gut that if I said who I was for real, that he would say, fuck off. And that's all we get. And we wouldn't learn anything. This was your one chance to do it. Yes. So, like, we became.

convinced. I didn't know what was going to happen at all, but we all left that bar like, holy shit, man. You had to be fucking looking at each other when you, like, just, are you kidding me? Did that just happen? Like, the fact that he brought it up, every time he would say something, I would get goosebumps all over my arms. That moment I will never forget because he's kind of got a weird, dead eye stare a little bit sometimes. Yeah, where they just like study you when they're talking. Yeah, or you can't tell what they're thinking. It just feels weird. He was looking at me and he brings up that I thought that you might be this podcast guy. And for a brief moment there, I thought, holy shit, he knows who I am.

This is all like microseconds. And I'm like, okay, react the exact opposite now. And I go, what? Like, they're kind of playing dumb. And I'm like, fuck that. I just kind of go into complete 180 hard the other direction with no hesitation. Then he brings it up again. And I think on the second time, he had become.

come convinced within the hour or so that I wasn't that guy. And that's when I knew, holy shit, okay, he actually does not know who I am and does not think that podcast guy is me. And the only reason he doesn't is because he simply didn't Google it. Someone had tipped him off and told him about me and this podcast, and he just didn't take the time to type in my name or the show. And if he had any time in the previous 24 hours, he would have known who I was. but he didn't. Who had her daughter when Flo went missing that night? That night, I believe it was her ex who's been talked to and pretty much cleared for the most part.

But I believe that that's who had her daughter. I was trying to put myself in her shoes. She's a 33-year-old mom. She's going out for a weekend. It was just her birthday. So this was probably like her big celebration weekend. So I was just thinking the person who always knows where I am. if I'm not with my kids is the person who has my kids.

I was just curious if he had any insight of where she was going and whatnot or was able to confirm that, yeah, her plan was to be at West Beach. Yeah, I mean, I think it wasn't really a plan, but as they pieced it together by talking to people and her last movements, it was very clear that that's where she went to this West Beach of Nome where a bunch of gold miners and random travelers like to set up camp and pretty much party. So she was going through like a troubled time in the moment. And she was out there with some objectively sketchier individuals.

Then she disappeared. That's the last she was seen. And her stuff was found in and outside of this guy's tent, the guy that I catfished. And he has no good story as to why that is the case. As far as we know, no one's seen her since them. Do you know if at any time, if the police, checked shelters, either domestic violence shelters or shelters for the unhoused for either Flo or Joseph?

Nome is so small that there would only be one place and they're not there. And if they were around, people would see them. Yes. It's not a place that unless you get super lost in the wilderness and fall down a hole or something, which people like to theorize may have happened to Joseph, despite all the suspicious circumstances, there's not anywhere to hide in Noam. There isn't that many places to go look for somebody. So when did you first physically land in Noam? You mentioned you guys worked on this for about a year before you went public with any information. I think that's important. A lot of people

might not realize us creators how much time we're putting in before we go public because, like you said, there is sort of that magic invisibility cloak that you have until you start taking things public and then it's like your job is twice as hard now. If you're serious about growing this new year, what you put into your mind actually matters. And as someone who lives and breathes careers and self-development, even I get overwhelmed trying to do it all. Between work, life and trying to better yourself, self-care can start to feel like just another thing on the to-do list. But investing in yourself doesn't have to be complicated. And with Audible, it isn't. It's time to take care of you. And who better to help than the top voices in well-being all in one place. With

Audible's Well-Being Collection, you can level up your career, finances, relationships, sleep, parenting, or mindset. Whether you want motivation, clarity, or practical advice, there is something there to support you every step of the way. I listen while I commute, clean, work, or just when I need a little bit of downtime. You'll hear from best-selling authors Brene Brown and Jay Shetty, Chef Jamie Oliver, finance expert Rachel Rogers, and popular parenting guides like Raising Good Humans. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a 30-day trial at outwable.com. Membership is 1495 a month after 30 days. Cancel any time.

There's more to imagine when you listen. I want to say I first landed in Nome late 22 or early 23, and we really made a serious effort to be. as incognito as possible just about what we were doing because we knew that it would eventually impact the case in some way and that once the cat's out of the bag, we can't take that same approach anymore. So preserving that for as long as we could. And we did for a majority of this season, it's been that until, obviously, when the podcast came out, and then once people realized that we were actually for real covering Joseph's case too, and it wasn't. and a tangential story.

It changed everything forever because now the entire town knows that the two unsolved cases here of missing persons are being covered by this podcast and these people and everyone's talking. And we're hearing everyone inside the story that people had never heard before. Interviews from people eight years ago that no one even knew occurred. And they're sitting back and piecing together their own version of events. That's when people start reaching out to us. us and say, hey, having known this now, this doesn't make sense. We're able to kind of in a way, thanks to the private investigators in Joseph's case and the family who spearheaded the whole thing.

Look at what was transpiring eight years ago and what people were saying that no one has ever heard, even them. And compared to what they're saying now, I would not remember what I said eight years ago, especially if I was lying about something and I was not too sure about it. So there's a lot of big, big holes from people who are related to each other and in weird places in this case. And it's like irrefutably weird. It would be crazier if he got eaten by a bear and the bear ate his cell phone and his boots and his backpack too. If that's what happened, which I don't believe, that's like getting struck by lightning twice or three times in your life. And so at what point are you like, okay, why are these people lying?

Because it's not just misremembering. It's not just like a little detail here and there. It's big, big things that when you zoom out, you go, oh, it looks like they're painting a story here. And all these things can't be true. That's what we're leaning on is answering that question and less of the assertion of involvement. more like why did you lie in the first place? And if you lied to the police, which we have proof that some of y'all did, the police should be doing something about that.

When I watched forensic files back in the day, if you lied to the cops, they take you to the station. And they, like, put you in the room, good cop, bad cop. One comes out with a Diet Coke and the other one's grilling you for two hours. Why do you think the police gave you the runaround? Maybe because they didn't do their job, but are there any other reasons? My gut instinct is that that case file is like 200 characters of words. I don't have any proof of them really legitimately interviewing anyone in a real,

real way. So I think that the case file, if there even is a real case file in that way, is so lackluster and so nothing burger, that they're going to hold on to this is an open investigation. that's really why we don't want to show it to you. Because not only are we not doing anything now, we didn't then either. What was also so valuable in the season is hearing those recordings that you mentioned between the different PIs and Christine and her family. And what's obvious is you're hearing those interviews back is that these stories aren't adding

up and there's different perspectives on were Christine and Joseph having more than a friendship, You're also wanting to represent Megan, his fiancé, and be respectful to the family. How did you navigate those pieces? It's really difficult because you have to really look at it objectively and remember what you're doing this for and what the goal is and not to fall down the rabbit hole of trying to make things fit or just because you feel like somebody did something doesn't mean that they did. I can remember back, like listening to some of the tape a year and a half ago, and the way that I hear it now is so different. There are things that I would have never picked up on as odd just because of how much we've learned in the process since then. And so in terms of the podcast this season, we've been unfolding it to you in the way that we learned it. Because that's how you as a listener would be able to also point out different oddities, different strange anomalies or plot holes in their story.

by hearing what's said then and now and what doesn't fit and how that might be suspicious. I think that in both Joseph and Florence's case, they died and people know that they died or they died in front of people, and people hid that. I don't know if they were outright murders or if they were accidents or if they were something even more malicious. But I think that people knew they died and felt they were close enough to this or responsible enough to go out of their way to hide the truth. And that's what the families firmly believe. It's not like any other theory has been proven to be true or more true. You could sit there and say, hey, Florence walked off into the ocean. Well, that would be weird.

And why didn't she wash back up? That's a theory, sure. And maybe that did happen, but there's no proof of that. There's no evidence to support it. Or there's definitely less evidence supporting that. Where does this other guy fit into that whole picture? At what point do they go beyond being coincidences or taken seriously? These things don't add up.

And when things don't add up, you got to re-comit and say, okay, why is that? And sometimes weird shit does happen. but when it happens in a pattern and it's still an unsolved case, you've got to start looking at what's right in your face and call it for what it is to at least get to the bottom of that. One thing that also came up a lot as suggestions in both Florence and Joseph's cases was bear attacks. You did a great job including those statistics, but it made me curious. So I wanted to do some independent research as well. And the statistics really would point to she's more likely to have been harmed in like an ATV accident.

That's so much more common in this state of Alaska. Even a dog attack is much more common than a bear attack. Do you think some of that is almost like lower in small towns or spread so frequently that people think they happen more often than they actually do? I think in terms of the police ever making that kind of assertion is more of a, this is the vaguest conclusion we can come to that you can't prove otherwise unless you find a body. It's almost like saying the boogeyman got him in the woods. Okay, a bear got him in the woods, okay.

But there's no signs of that. How far could he have theoretically walked from his truck reasonably? Like, that's got to be under like a five-mile radius. I don't know. How far could he have possibly gone? And they searched that place up and down, biggest search they've ever done in that city, and they found nothing. That in itself is just really weird. The way his truck was parked is weird. Those facts alone don't support a bear attack. You can't rule that out because you don't

know where he is. But when you combine that with everything else and all the other people who are lying about where they were and trying to create alibis for different days and nights and digging deeper and finding out these different relationship dynamics that Joseph had with people, there's more questions. And if they really cared about him in the way that they showed themselves to eight years ago, then where are they now? Yeah. One thing I found really compelling was that you guys literally put up flyers and gnome. You had a tip line, you had a reward. And then there was sort of this robot woman who came into the picture, who started essentially like feeding you information. And in, I believe, the latest episode, episode 15 week here, the robot voice melt and her voice

sort of becomes this young woman's voice. Because of the age we live in with AI and the internet and how insane and unhinged people can be, how do you vet those sorts of claims and how serious do you take them? To get to any truth or fact, you're going to go through a lot of bullshit. So you've got to be on the lookout for false information, misinformation, not fall for the crazy rumor mill town shit. Yeah, and most unreliable people will tell you they're unreliable in the conversations that I have with them without even speaking to the evidence. You can start to track that like, the things that this person says are not aligning with reality and the facts I have. Yeah, that's a telltale. But if someone's telling potentially the truth or there's a meat on the bone,

it's usually because they say something that only they would know. We haven't ever said that. How do you know that detail? And so now we're listening. In terms of the creepy AI voice that you've heard thus far, I'll say this. It's more than one person. It's actually like a lot of people. Oh.

Oh, shit. It's a whole squad of robots. Yes. Have you been able to fact check some of what they're saying and it seems credible? Absolutely. Yeah. I've heard the same story from different people who were both in the same place, both having no knowledge of the other.

I have Snapchat data proving where people were. I have video proof of people being places with timestamps and XF data on the photos of them being where they said they're not to pretty much everyone, except for anyone who would be hiding something or lying about something. they're just now realizing that what they witnessed at one point in time was something that mattered. Because it was just a normal day or night for them. But then in hindsight, when you know that this has been happening behind the scenes when you were there eight years ago, you're going, holy shit. That dot connects to this dot.

It meant nothing then because there was no context. But that's what's been happening is that that summer, not everyone who was there that summer, is still there. At least 60% of the information that we've been getting stuff from have been people who were there that summer who that was their only time there. And they have no ties to it anymore. They just happen to be around and close to some of the people who come up in this story. Wow. Something that's come up more recently is this Alaska Airlines threat. Can you break that down for me? Because I want to make sure I'm understanding this correctly. Essentially, there's one plane in and one plane out, right? Yeah. If you want to book a flight to Nome, you're going to go

through Anchorage first, and then you'll fly from Anchorage to Nome via Alaska Airlines. That's the main airline to all the small towns in Alaska, because Alaska is enormous, and there are tons of small airports, and they have all these different flights to different airports. There's other airlines, but in terms of Nome, Alaska, the main one that run from Anchorage to Nome, which is the only one that I can take is Alaska Airlines. About two or three weeks ago, I had a flight booked to go to Nome. I had one night in my sleep, decided on a whim that I was going to pop up in Nome and ask certain people some questions while the podcast was coming out.

And I was banking on that element of surprise. There were some people that I wanted to approach. a few days before my scheduled flight, I canceled everything. And there was a series of at least three other flights that I canceled. But I was just being stupid and I literally forgot to cancel my last flight,

which was from Anchorage to Nome. And I never checked in. I've flown enough. I know how it works on the consumer side enough to know that if I didn't tell anybody this and I didn't check in, I'm not going to appear on your app as like P. Lindsay and some upgrade list,

but not calling my name out at the desk. I know that those things aren't how somebody knew I was coming to know. It had to be from someone who can look that up. The day of the flight, it was as if people knew the flight I was going to be on specifically. I decided because they were so certain that I was coming, that I'm just going to pretend like I was there. So if anyone was trying to keep tabs on me, at least for a moment they'd think,

holy shit, how did you get past this? Or simultaneously, try to figure out, is there anything to this? Am I reading into it too much? And turns out I wasn't. But nine or not, multiple people had looked up to see if I was coming. And without any hint that I was going to be there, I can only assume that somebody was monitoring it, checking frequently. my name. I don't work for Alaska Airlines. I can't go into their computer system. I can't

prove who did what. Only they can do that with some form of internal investigation. And obviously, we don't feel safe flying commercially via Alaska Airlines to Nome anytime soon if our information can't remain private. And that's a major safety concern when in a town that small, we're basically here to investigate two unsolved murders. It could be a vacation,

and I don't want you to know where I am. I don't even post my location until I leave somewhere, for sure. Yeah. I don't have to make any big claims here other than I don't like that. I don't want you to know where I am at all times. And I think everyone might feel that way.

So nefarious or not, or a combination of all, the above. I'd like to know where that came from, and I'd more so like to know that it won't happen again. Obviously, I'm not going to take their airline anymore, and we'll find other creative ways to get there. Are there other routes that people take in? You can get there by boat, but now it would have to be something that we're really creative on who we're telling who, what. We cannot be the names, the real names of ourselves on that thing, which we know some people who could help us with that. But that would have to be what it is. So essentially, they may have looked at the flight

manifest and saw that you were supposed to be on this flight? Yeah. Someone who works at the airport and or airlines who has access to that. I do know that it's federally regulated because of terrorism. It is a federal crime to access and disseminate private information. information like that. It could have been one person, two people, three out of curiosity. Whether it was nefarious or not, you still deserve your privacy. Yeah. And I think that with as many ties to certain individuals who have been aired on this podcast to the airline and could be somebody who could be privy to that information or also have access to it, it just makes it feel even less safe. You don't have to connect a whole bunch of dots for you

to understand why we would be uncomfortable or feel like something that should be done about it. What comes next in this case? How many episodes are you anticipating and where are you at in the investigation? We have one coming out this week, episode 16, and then we have episode 17 coming out next week. Then we're taking another small break and we're going to come back in conclusion with eight more episodes. And just like in the first install, It was mostly about Florence's case, and then it became about Joseph's case, and then part two has been about Joseph mostly. The third installment will be both cases more evenly covered, and now that you're caught

up on what there is to know, pulling out everything we got in the box and showing it to you. What has it been like to have that support from Florence's family and from Joseph's family? have they listened to the podcast? I can't imagine what it would be like to hear the podcast. I know some of them listen to it. Some of them choose not to, which I also understand. Some people have listened to certain parts because they were told by other family or friends

that they should hear this part. But I think that overall, it's felt to me and them too, I believe, like a sense of camaraderie that feels pretty nice. nice in the sense of us collaborating to get answers. And attention for their loved one. Yeah. And other people care and they can see that.

People have done beautiful, like, oil paintings of Joseph and Florence and stuff like that. To the family, like, that's amazing. They're not forgotten. I'm sure it's simultaneously the hardest thing on earth to relive it and go through all that. for it to be spotlighted again. And unfortunately, that's kind of what has to happen to solve it, unless the police do something different.

But I think for the most part, what they've believed happened or didn't happen to their loved ones has been more and more validated. That matters more than people consider it does sometimes. I can't arrest anybody, but knowing that they weren't crazy and that that person did say this, or that my own objective investigation found what they thought was weird too,

that validation is also something that's helpful and just moving forward in some way and not being alone on an island and the only one thinking and talking this way about it. I'm sure we didn't still hope. More eyes is always better, especially on missing persons cases. And so I imagine that for them it would bring such a sense of comfort that somebody's actually working this, especially after waiting so long. What is one of the more common misconceptions that people have about missing persons cases? This is just my opinion, but I feel like most people never go missing. Missing means they're dead.

Now, there are cases where people have been found and they were alive or they were kidnapped or they ran away and started a whole new life. But when years go by, a lot of those things become less likely. And I tend to believe that a majority of year-old unsolved missing persons cases, they're basically just unsolved homicides without a potty, especially if the evidence points to that circumstantially. It's very infrequent that somebody would actually have like a mental break or choose to vanish themselves, essentially. Yeah, choose to go missing on their own account and accord and still be alive and well somewhere. That is, in my opinion, the lowest on the list.

It's not the most common thing. That I think is a common misconception. It's too broad of a look at it. You got to zoom in some more and say, okay, they're not hiding somewhere. Maybe someone hit them somewhere. What is the most common misconception that people have about you? I think there's a lot of misconceptions. There's a level of staying objective that I do.

I think because of the way I like to tell the story from a first person perspective, I get a lot of people saying shit, like, he's always making it about himself. Of course, he's going to find a way to bring himself back into it and pat himself on the back. And I'm like, I get that take. It's a bad take because you'd also have to be saying, why do all these other people trust him enough to talk to him? I'm really this sort of silly, goofy, laid back dude 90% of the time when I'm not investigating a unsolved disappearance. Well, it's really more about your investigation, which of course you're a part of because you're investigating.

So yeah, it's just one of those things. You can never win. That's what I've learned. With some people, they're determined to misunderstand you, and that's what it is. I relate a lot to your story. I was a creative and really wanting to get more in the work. Listening to Up and Vanish was definitely one of those shows that inspired me to get into podcasts because I love documentaries and if I would have had my way, I would have gone to school if I could have afforded it to study film and become a director. And so audio was the way I could afford to do the work that I wanted to do, especially the way you like brought people on the journey.

The humanness of it, it makes you realize that all jobs are worked by humans. Right. I appreciate so much the work that you do, not only as, a listener and somebody who has been a fan of yours for a long time, but also just as somebody who's lost a family member to murder, I've always said I'm so grateful for independent journalism and quote, murder podcasts or true crime podcasts because I used to feel seen in that work before I worked in this genre. It brought me comfort to know that other people were giving a shit about people's murdered loved ones. I can relate to those victims and relate to some of

the sentiments even within season four. I didn't have a missing person, but I could relate so much to the family and their words. I'm happy and thankful that you were able to make time to come on. And I certainly appreciate the work that you do. And where can we go and support you? Well, thank you for all those kind of words. That was very nice of you. I feel the same way about you. You're doing amazing things. It's been awesome to see you grow. And I for a while didn't even know that you hadn't even listened to Up and Vantage. And then to learn, like, like later that you were like a real fan of the work and what I'm doing was I was flattered. So thank you.

It's like a given to me. It's like cereal up and vanished. You know, there was some, there was definitely those shows that paved the way for a lot of us. Well, I appreciate that. It means a lot to me. But yeah, up and vanished season four, it's called In the Midnight Sun is the subtitle of it. If you haven't heard it, just dive right into episode one of season four and just binge the first 16 or 17. right now and you'll be up to speed. And we have a whole new installment of episodes coming out

in a more final way around the corner. I personally listened to all of it in like a day and a half. I was like nothing in this world exists. Shout out to you and your team for all of the work you've put into this season thus far. It is incredibly done and I appreciate the sensitivity that you bring forth and the education you bring forth. Definitely five stars highly recommend, and we will link it in the episode notes too on the major platform so you can just click through and go listen now. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe, friends. Something Was Wrong is a Broken Cycle Media production, created and hosted by me, Tiffany Reese. If you'd like to support the show further, you can share episodes with your loved ones,

a positive review or follow Something Was Wrong on Instagram at Something Was Wrong podcast. Our theme song was composed by Gladrags. Check out their album, Wonder Under. Thank you so much.