Something Was Wrong - S23 Ep12: Tuff

Starting point is 00:00:00 Something Was Wrong is intended for mature audiences. This season contains discussions of medical negligence, birth trauma, and infant loss, which may be upsetting for some listeners. For a full content warning, sources, and resources, please visit the episode notes. Opinions shared by the guests of the show are their own, and do not necessarily represent the views of myself, broken cycle media, and wondering. The podcast in any linked materials should not be misconstrued as a substitution for legal or medical advice. Origins' birth and wellness owners and midwives, Caitlin Wages and Gina Thompson, have not responded to our requests for comment.

Starting point is 00:00:46 Additionally, midwives Jennifer Crawford and Elizabeth Fuell have also not returned our request for comment. Amy Tate's responses to the allegations against her are included within this episode. This season is dedicated with love to Malik. The last two survivors you will hear from this season, Sarah and Barbie, were clients of Origins' birth and wellness a few years before the other survivors you've heard from this season. They were clients of origins during the years when Origins had three owners, Caitlin Wages, Gina Thompson, and Amy Tate. Sarah, a former client of Amy Tate, who you'll hear from this episode, delivered with Origins' birth and wellness Dallas in 2019. I'm Tiffany Reese, and this is Something Was Wrong.

Starting point is 00:02:18 Hi, my name is Sarah. Me and my husband, we met in February of 2018. We got engaged in March the next month, and we got married in May. So it was a whirlwind courtship, engagement, marriage, the whole thing. It was wonderful. Shortly thereafter, by August, I found that I was pregnant with Teth, my son. I was pregnant with him at the rodeo in Las Vegas, and there's a tough heedaman. He's an old bull rider.

Starting point is 00:02:46 And then there's also a tough cooper. He is a roper. We talked to his mom, and I said, my husband wants to name our kid tough. She said, well, just know that that's what you're going to get if you do it. And I said, okay, well, I'm not too scared of that. We need a tough boy from Texas. He was tough from when he was in my belly. It wasn't because of what happened, although it proved to be so poetic.

Starting point is 00:03:09 Yes. I was 31 years old. I had waited a long time to finally have my babies. I had been going to a regular OB-GYN. Everything was going well, but I had started to feel not a real personal connection. I felt like a number. Next pregnant person in the door, out the door, go through the motions. And maybe I didn't need a lot of attention.

Starting point is 00:03:34 There was nothing dramatic about my pregnancy. I'd never even got morning sickness. One of the last times I saw my OB, I walked by her in the doctor's office. She just looked at me like she literally had no idea who I was, and I had been seeing her for 20-plus weeks. And I said, okay, I need to find something else. Looking at midwives, I was directed to Inamee Gaskin's Guide to Childbirth. The premise is basically that your body is made to birth.

Starting point is 00:04:07 I was thinking, well, I can do this. I don't have any problems. I'm healthy. Beginning of 2019. I googled birth centers in Dallas. I called two birthing centers around to schedule a tour and Origins was the first one to call me back. I liked what I saw on the website. It seemed like, oh, they have got a lot of experience.

Starting point is 00:04:27 And at this time, Amy Tate, Gina Thompson, and Caitlin Wages owned the birth center together. Yes, the three of them owned it. I was only ever associated or had any really contact with Amy. The other two must have been owners but in the background. We toured it. Me and my husband went. It's this old Victorian-looking house in downtown Dallas. It's got a beautiful park next door.

Starting point is 00:04:58 The key factor, though, for me and my husband when we went is there's Baylor, Dallas. They showed us around. They also showed us this beautiful mirrored cabinet that had all of their safety equipment. They opened it up. They said, here's all our safety stuff in case we have any type of emergency. If you're not going to give birth at home, this is where you want to give birth. It is quaint. It's cozy, all the things.

Starting point is 00:05:24 But then look right in the backyard. There's Baylor. I told my husband, I really think I can do this. I'm made to do this. I'm all fired up. And if anything goes wrong during labor, I can be transferred to the hospital. He was like, I'm here to support you.

Starting point is 00:05:42 If I were the one giving birth, I wouldn't do it. But not in a worrisome way because I think he felt the same security. If things aren't going well or something happens, the hospital's right there. I've got like three best friends. I told them they were like, are you sure this is a good idea? They were the only ones that were really openly apprehensive about this. My mom was like, well, this is different. But if this is what you want to do, okay.

Starting point is 00:06:09 I don't think she really understood it. But she was, in the end, I think, supportive. When I transferred to the midwife, I was around 34 weeks. So I was very far along. Then I started looking into a doula. There's a doula place, North Dallas, Dula Associates in DDA. They're the well-known one in Dallas. Found a doula.

Starting point is 00:06:31 I love her to this day. I know she's been a doula a bunch of times. and I was like, she could really keep me grounded. So I've got my husband, my doula, my midwives. Amy and Megan were my two primary midwives. We were already at weekly appointments because I was 34 weeks along. I was thinking, okay, this is the best of both worlds. Since I am low risk, they would test my urine every visit.

Starting point is 00:06:56 Blood pressure, check the baby with the Doppler thing, and they would call it baby mapping. They would just feel to see what position the baby was in. So then you're 39 and a half weeks when you go into labor? Yeah, on April 21st. I started having contractions in the morning. I texted my doula, had my little contraction timer. It was Easter Sunday.

Starting point is 00:07:24 Of course, then I just feel bad for going into labor on Easter. I have to legit be going into labor right now, don't I? So I thought, well, maybe it's not it in the morning. My contractions were two minutes apart. I said at 10-15, like, things are getting a lot more intense around here. They're coming very, very frequent. Every two minutes, my doula says, okay, you should call the midwife. The midwife, she says, come in.

Starting point is 00:07:49 So I got there. They all showed up. Amy, Megan. There was a midwife in training. And then my doula and me and my husband. So it was the four of them and then us. when I was texting my deal all that, it was about 10.30, and my water broke it, 1.30. It was going pretty quick. I felt it. And I was like, oh, my gosh, wow, this is really happening.

Starting point is 00:08:15 They looked at the little diaper thing I was wearing, for lack of better word. They could see the maconium staining. And she was like, there's a little bit of maconium, but it's not worrisome. We're just going to have to do a little extra monitoring, which means we're going to take your temperature, and then we're going to have to check his heart rate. And as long as his heart rate is steady and you don't have a temperature, then everything's fine with the maconium. You're not at risk. I wish I would have done a Google search because once your water breaks, you're at risk for any type of infection. And that's why they were worried about checking for my temperature. This is 1.30 in the afternoon on April 21st. I labored all day, all night. I remember I got a little bit of sleep

Starting point is 00:09:01 in between random contractions. She told me if they're coming any more than every five minutes, they're not dilating you at all. It's really just having contractions for the sake of having them. So that was pretty annoying because mine were all very intense. She was like, I can't, for the life of me, figure out why you're not progressing. Let me check you and see where you're at. And so she went in there and felt, she said it was a band of scar tissue.

Starting point is 00:09:27 That's what it felt like. Previously, I had had an abnormal pap, and they had done one of those leap procedures. So she manually broke that scar tissue. I'm not on any type of pain help at all. Because she felt like it was blocking? Yeah, like it was stopping my cervix from dilating further. I was just in between contractions, so I was already blind with pain. I don't even know what time this whole scar tissue thing happened.

Starting point is 00:09:54 It could have been that night. Could have been the next morning. Was there any discussion at this point? about going to the hospital? No. I think it was just once we get that scar tissue broken, then you'll be able to dilate and then you'll have your baby. So I'm thinking, let's freaking do it.

Starting point is 00:10:10 I just can't explain to you how exhausted I was. Physically when you're in labor, it's run at 18 marathons on your body. But I was actively also like physically working out. I am doing these stairs up and down. I am doing squats. And when it got to actual birthing time, I just didn't have any more left in me.

Starting point is 00:10:32 I was gassed, having been in labor since 10.30 in the morning. My husband, he had a bad feeling. When I look at these pictures, I can see the fear on my husband's face. We just kept being like, are you sure everything's okay? Heart rate's okay and you don't have a temperature. Everything's fine. And then it got to a point where it was like, you're ready to push. And I remember I kind of got like a boost of adrenaline, like, I can do this.

Starting point is 00:10:56 My adrenaline wore off pretty fast because I was pushing, I believe four plus hours is what someone had told me. I was pushing four plus hours. He sat with the crown of his head out for a long time. So he was in the birth canal for hours. I remember at some point in time somebody said there was maconium dripping out.

Starting point is 00:11:24 I just was in so much pain. I couldn't see straight. I don't know what finally scared, Amy, but we have a video of, the birth, well, a part of it. And you can see when she gets panicked. I don't know if she finally maybe didn't hear the heart tones. Later on, my Dula was telling me, I don't believe that they were actually hearing the baby's heart tones with the Doppler. I think they were hearing yours. Who was doing these things? I'd say, honestly, it was everybody, because sometimes it was the student.

Starting point is 00:11:59 Amy said, stand up. You've got to get your baby out. I sense this is not good. Stood up, put my leg up on the side of the tub like Captain Morgan. That's how I gave birth, basically. My husband was beneath me and was going to like catch the baby. I don't think he should have been in that position. He's in the tub, soaking wet. She said you have to get this baby out now,

Starting point is 00:12:21 and then she said something along lines of like, I'm going to have to help you, and she's got a scalpel on her hand. You can see in the video, part of me wishes she would have just given me the peaceiotomy and helped me get him out, whatever would have stopped. the situation from happening, she didn't have access, like, I feel like to me or my baby to get in there and help with the scalpel, even if that's what she was going to have to do. That's very scary, though.

Starting point is 00:12:44 Yeah, yeah. That video was so chilling. I was able to, like, zoom in with my video, so I was only looking at her. When I got to the part where she was talking, you can see her panicked, in my opinion. At the very end of the video before it goes out, I finally scream like, I can't stand on this leg anymore. I was on one leg, obviously cramping everywhere. I need someone here to help get this baby out. And it's not my poor husband.

Starting point is 00:13:14 He's never done this before. This is his first birth. If you've been to hundreds or thousands of births, get in and help. Not my poor husband who's probably going to be scarred for life. I think that's when my husband's sensed. Okay, this isn't right. This isn't good. So he squeezes my belly from the top.

Starting point is 00:13:34 Were they directing him to do this? Or his instincts were just kicking in? No, he just kicked in. He just started pushing on the top of my belly as hard as he could. I was pushing and then his head came out. And then everybody seemed relief. And then that was when the scalpel went flying. He was covered in maconium.

Starting point is 00:13:54 And it was dripping out of me. One more push, one more squeeze, got him out. I mean, once his head came out, he came out pretty quickly. My son ended up being born at 8.55 at night of April 22nd, which was Monday night, 34 hours of labor from my very first contraction to him coming out at around 9 o'clock. How long had it been between when your water broke and when he was born? It was 31 hours with the maconium in it. The second it was broke.

Starting point is 00:14:22 So that also ups the Annie, now that I've researched things. They got him out and put them on my chest. chest for just a second. I have a picture where I'm so relieved. This is brutal. It was war, but I've done it. And then they pulled him right off of me. I think her hands are on him in the picture, taking him immediately away. He never cried. He was covered the maconium. They could see it, so they wanted to start suctioning. But immediately, they were calling for the ambulance. They took him over to that pretty cabinet with the mirrors, and they opened it up, and they have a little place there where they set him, and they started trying to suction him.

Starting point is 00:14:58 but the sections weren't working. He had so much maconium in his lungs and in his throat. So he didn't have any air. His discharge summary says the transport team was contacted at 2100, but after five minutes of waiting for arrival, the transport team decided to expedite arrival and go to the birthing center using their personal vehicle. So the NICU nurses, they were supposed to wait for security,

Starting point is 00:15:26 but they went ahead and got in their own car and came over because they knew where the birthing center was. They're angels sent from above because they realized the emergency, and if they would have waited, they wouldn't have made it there in time. He had no respiratory effort and no heart rate when they arrived. According to this, he was not alive. They were trying to intubate him. They got him intubated.

Starting point is 00:15:52 It says a large amount of maconium suction from the tube following intubation. Then it said the heart rate noticed. to be rising, chest compressions were stopped. The total time for chest compressions was two minutes. They were still waiting for the ambulance to arrive, so waiting for another five minutes, the infant stabilized and was transferred to Baylor University Medical Center for further management. So the NICU nurses got him stable in the birthing center in their little medical cabinet. He was born at 8.55, and he didn't get to the hospital until 9.40. So that was a very long time. I feel like we could have just ran him across the street and gotten him help faster.

Starting point is 00:16:31 My husband went with him by ambulance to Baylor. I had to deliver the placenta still. I'm sure I'm telling myself, this isn't happening. My doula, after the birth, she called another one of her Dula friends to have her come replace her. My Dula was spent. This was a long day, emotionally draining, and I think she really knew the gravity of what had just happened. Whereas I didn't understand anything yet. I did not know how serious this was.

Starting point is 00:16:58 Even at this point when they took him away, I just thought, okay, maybe he had a hard time breathing and they're taking him to the hospital. I still had to deliver this placenta. I do not have any recollection of delivering the placenta at all. Afterwards, she said, you can't go until you go pee. I remember I sat there and tried and I tried. I was so frustrated and she's like, I could catheterize you.

Starting point is 00:17:18 And I'm like, good, please. I remember her saying, it's going to hurt. And I'm thinking, you're kidding me from what I've been through for the last how many days. Like, I could literally care less if you catheterize me. How do you get to the hospital? Someone drove me. Julie was there.

Starting point is 00:17:35 Amy went with me, too. By the time I got there, he was already in a NICU bed. He was seizing the ambulance on the way to the hospital. When he went to the NICU, he had no reflexes. They would scrape the bottom of his foot. Your toes are supposed to curl. None of that happened. If they pull their arms down, they're supposed to kind of spring back up.

Starting point is 00:17:55 That didn't happen. and all these little checkmarks. They were assessing him and determined that he had moderate H-I-E, which H-I-E stands for hypoxic, ischemic encephalopathy. It's essentially lack of oxygen to the brain. He was already in a nicubed

Starting point is 00:18:14 on the cooling blanket. The faster they initiate it, the better chance it has of working. So they cool their body down to like 92.3 degrees. They want him to go essentially into hypothermia. This allows the brain to heal itself instead of continuing to swell.

Starting point is 00:18:33 Once the cooling is initiated, they can be on it for 72 hours. After that 72 hours, they have to warm them back up to normal body temperature. It's such a delicate process. When he warmed him up, he started having continuous seizures. He was on loads of phenobarb and Berset and stuff like that that were supposed to stop them, and they didn't. He's obviously fully intubated at this point. I think he was five or six days old in the hospital before they put him on my chest again with all of his tubes this time and intubated and EEG on his head and all this stuff. They told us that he was brain damaged.

Starting point is 00:19:14 Now, the extent of the brain damage, they said we're not going to be able to see until we're able to do an MRI. But you should expect to see large, large areas of brain damage. It's been long enough that his lungs are clean. there's no more mconium in it. He's not breathing because his brain is not telling his body to breathe. That's how much brain damage there is. So that's what he's on a ventilator. And at that point in time, my husband said,

Starting point is 00:19:38 that sounds like we just have more to pray about. Of course, I'm just a wreck. I'm like, you're not understanding what he's saying. I would go to the hospital every day, all day long from 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. My mother and my husband made me return home every night So I could try and be a quote normal person, but I was not. I was sick and I had this sick feeling in my stomach.

Starting point is 00:20:01 And I remember knowing I can't live with this feeling in me. I'm like, it's my fault. I shouldn't have been at this birthing center. You know, I should have been here the whole time. Why wasn't I here? He was born April 22nd. It was the 25th. That's when they warmed him up.

Starting point is 00:20:16 Seizures nonstop until May the 6th. We went home at night and we were anointed with oil from Jerusalem, which my mom had gotten on her trip to Israel, anointed with oil on behalf of my son, our family prayed, and when we walked in the Niki the next day, he was breathing room air. That same very day, they pulled out his nose cannula,

Starting point is 00:20:37 they put him to the breasts, and he started breastfeeding by mouth for the first time. There's two therapists, Karen and Jenny, Jenny is a speech therapist. Jenny was the one who, when they put tough on the breast for the first time, she was crying and she was saying, Suck, swallow, breathe, that's what he's doing.

Starting point is 00:20:56 He's not brain dead. His brain is telling him to do this. Then Karen comes rushing in because they're friends, and she's the occupational therapist who checked Tuff's reflexes when they first got him in there. Then Karen checked all of his reflexes and he all of a sudden was doing everything. His toes curled, you know, his arms popped back.

Starting point is 00:21:13 Then she's in tears, and she said, in her 30-something years being at Baylor, she'd never seen a miracle like Tuff. He never had a seizure. again. Silly but surely they took all the tubes off of him and they realized he didn't need it and we walked out of the hospital May 14th. We knew we'd seen a miracle. Got the MRI back and it came back as normal. It showed a few areas of low blood flow ischemia is what they had said. But overall, they still considered a quote normal MRI and we were told to expect something far, far worse.

Starting point is 00:21:47 We had the greatest team taken care of us, but tough to me is nothing. but a miracle, a miracle straight from God. Obviously, everything that the nurses and the doctors did saved his brain from any further damage that was caused by the lack of oxygen through the cooling therapy and the cooling blanket and the sweet nurses and therapists. Did Amy Tate or anyone from origins reach out to you while he was in NICU? What was your contact like with them post-delivery?

Starting point is 00:22:17 We all kind of kept in contact really probably via just text message. I wasn't mentally doing so well most of the time while he was there until he started getting better. I would tell them what was going on, keep him up to date. When he did start getting better, I'm like, till the whole world, everyone was really thrilled. We went afterwards with Tuff, two origins, took a picture with the midwives like all the babies do. You know, you go for your post visit. So we did all of that. Bringing him home must have been such a big deal.

Starting point is 00:22:48 Oh my gosh, yes. But we had to wean him off of Fina Barbatol. that's a very powerful drug. They told us he had infantile spasms. It was a type of seizure. There was this therapy called ACTH, this hormone, that he got injections twice a day in each leg for two weeks straight. So we had to continue to do those when we brought him home for the infantile spasms.

Starting point is 00:23:09 He had his spinal tap two weeks. He had all these pokes and prods, EEGs and lines in his belly button, all of these things that you know were extremely painful. And it makes me so sad for him that he had to go through that. My dula, she wrote me a summary. She had said things were a little shocking with how they treated him after the birth. Access to the baby was substandard to say the least. She said they did include me in the resuscitation as a partnership and respectful

Starting point is 00:23:41 in searching me out for advice and assurance that they were doing the best things. Asking the dula if they're doing the right thing? Yeah. My doula was a nurse, but she's not there as a nurse. That's why she had said to me in this email that she was really trying to stay in her lane. She says, I'm not a nurse when I'm a doula, and I really try to compartmentalize that. But once it came down to a life or death situation, she said, I didn't really care about staying in my lane and being fearful as my license as a nurse, because she was driven strictly by her instincts to do everything that she could for him and for me.

Starting point is 00:24:18 If my doula wasn't there, how much worse would it have been? He was in physical therapy for the first year of his life. I remember they said he needed to crawl by nine months. There was this big looming deadline in my head. He's got to crawl by nine months. He was like eight months and 30 days, and he got the knees and crawled. We were screaming and jumping and crying. It was so huge.

Starting point is 00:24:42 They told us, we'll see if he walks. We'll see if he talks. They just kept kind of inching out this. milestone thing. That baby who was supposed to be brain dead, he was riding his balance bike flying down driveways at 17 months old, but he was appropriately named. And now we have three more brothers and sisters.

Starting point is 00:25:03 That was always the plan. We were going to fill up the house. So now we have four babies, and he's the sweetest big brother in the world. It wasn't until a year later when I was watching a movie with my husband, and there was a woman giving birth in the movie. It sent me complete panic attack meltdown. And my sister-in-law gave birth a year later, and that sent me into a meltdown.

Starting point is 00:25:28 I was physically starting to have panic attacks about this subject. I just remember thinking if I had just gone straight to the hospital, you know, they would have known his heart rate. They would have known why I wasn't dilating. I probably could have asked for some drugs by then, and I could have been able to push through the pain. You know, just all these things that, of course, I put on myself later, that isn't fair. And that was when I started thinking of, was this right? Was my son really in the best of care? We saw the maconium.

Starting point is 00:25:57 In the birthing center, that's where it all went wrong. I was low risk until I wasn't. As soon as you introduce something like the maconium, it changes everything. It changed my birth, and it changed my son's story. We were just constantly being reassured that everything was fine. My mom told me later that in the NICU that night when everybody rushed in and Tuff was already on the cooling blanket. We were all in the waiting room. My mom said, I'll never forget that Amy looked at her and said, I'm just so sorry, but these things just happen.

Starting point is 00:26:29 Our world is destroyed, right? Our family doesn't know what's happening to their first grandchild from me. And I'm like, no, these things do not just. Like, I know bad things happen, okay? But this one was avoidable. I feel like there was enough. warning signs. And if I hadn't been blind with pain and exhaustion, I would have been the one to say, me and my husband, we weren't even at our first wedding anniversary yet by the time that

Starting point is 00:26:57 this whole thing happened with tough. He said to me something, like, I knew you wanted to do this and I was fully supportive. But had I known you like I'd known you now, I would have physically carried you out of that plate. Like, we would have been gone. We just literally didn't know each other like that. I didn't know what I could and couldn't say to you. I don't think it was malicious, but they were not competent in what they were doing. Amy's license says June 6 of 2018. So that's less than a year before my son was born. Meanwhile, Megan was less than a year. She was August of 2018. I think about the birth every single day. And it's quite frankly exhaustive. This summer, I was doing a little bit of internet, Facebook sleuthing.

Starting point is 00:27:48 Amy's page, I've had her muted for a long time. I haven't outright unfriended her, but it causes me a lot of anxiety seeing her all the time. But somehow I stumbled upon Kristen's profile, and then I saw we had a mutual friend, Amy, and then I deep dived, and that's when I found Marquita and her story. And I was utterly shocked. I saw the kind of work Kristen was doing. I'd made me think there's more people out there than just me. This hasn't just happened to me in Tough.

Starting point is 00:28:16 I don't know why I didn't assume this before. I didn't know these type of things really did keep happening and not only happening but happening there. Maybe with different midwives, but still at origins. So I reached out to Kristen, then she reached out to me in December and I heard about this podcast. I haven't heard anything from Amy in probably five-plus years. Not anything after Tough was three or four months.

Starting point is 00:28:41 I don't post much. She randomly liked to post and went deep diving maybe into my socials. It started liking and commenting. And obviously, it's just because of this podcast. It was the day I reached out to her. Yeah, the very day. I thought, oh, wow, here she comes because all of a sudden her name's been dropped. But she hasn't asked in the past five years, hey, how's tough doing?

Starting point is 00:29:04 I waited to reach out to her all the same day, back to back. Call Gina, call Caitlin, call Jennifer Crawford. etc. None of them returned for comment. And then I email Amy and she right away calls me and leaves me this voicemail where she's just kind of like instantly spiraling. And then she sends me an email and it's pretending like I did not reach out to her at all. She instead is like, I'm writing you because your podcast says something about me and I got a negative review on my Google reviews. My name has been in the podcast because Kristen mentioned that she was her midwife before transferring care to Jennifer. And so it wasn't until we had allegations that we're going to reach out to

Starting point is 00:29:54 her. She was just mad that her name was mentioned and she was like, which is concerning because you're connecting me to origins. Literal facts that are in public court documents because of all the lawsuits. She was in emotion and anger at the moment and in shock me. And in shock me. maybe. She called again and then I texted her. I was like, I have availability later. I'll give you a call. So then we end up connecting. Hey, Amy. Sorry. Took me a second to get to the phone. No worries. I'm sorry we've been playing phone tag all day. That's okay. Don't know what I can really add to your story. And I do want to clarify with you because my name does seem to be mentioned quite a few times. And now I have

Starting point is 00:30:45 this review on my website, I have not had anything to do with origins since late summer, 2021. I was forced out of a business that I was running solely. The reason I hadn't reached out to you before was because, quite frankly, there was no, like, allegations against you that it was more, like, the passive mentioning of your name as just kind of like a fact and we were able to confirm that through like the court documents and stuff and then- I never had any allegations against me ever. I mean, I still have not had any allegations against me. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:31:32 Because I practice safely and true midlifery care unlike some people. I just feel like I'm in some way being like in like there are even, So I get it, like no allegations have been made. It does seem that people are thinking that I'm somehow associated with these outcomes, which I am so, so, so sad that they happened, but also so thankful that I have absolutely no, nothing to do with them. So there have been a few people that have come forward, alleging that they were under your care,

Starting point is 00:32:15 at origins before you left and they're reporting negligence. So I don't think that that is factual information. I can't speak to anything without knowing what it is. Right. I can shed a little bit more insight on that piece. But that's when like the shift happened and that's why I wanted to connect with you because obviously that's a very different situation. I don't know if you recall Sarah and her son tough.

Starting point is 00:32:52 I do recall Sarah. Absolutely, I recall Sarah. Yes, I do. I can't speak to her case without permission. I think that there was something called McConaum aspiration syndrome that led to her case. Mm-hmm. But I can't really go into great detail about it. Yeah, I know it's tricky with HIPAA violations and all that kind of stuff to, like, speak to it.

Starting point is 00:33:21 So I was going to ask you more like general questions, more of like your processes in terms of how long would you consider too long that someone is pushing before you transfer them? It depends on the medical stability of both mom and baby. Yeah. So if heart rate is stable and there are. are no signs of distress. So you're listening to the heart every five-ish minutes, every other contraction, basically, while people are pushing.

Starting point is 00:33:59 And baby sometimes shows you that they're not doing great by having what's called a deceleration. And if the baby were to have a deceleration, then that would be concerning. And you would listen longer, you may make a change immediately. I think that person actually videoed their birth. Yeah, they did provide that.

Starting point is 00:34:28 Yeah. So like during listening, if they be stable, then you can continue to push for, you know, it depends how long, but three to four hours is very common for first time moms to push. Okay. Okay. Okay. Even in a hospital setting where they're medicated, sometimes if we transfer people, we see them push for four or five hours at the hospital. As long as baby stable, they keep going to.

Starting point is 00:35:02 And then what, there was another claim like records being changed after the fact or things being in. were ever changed in my, when I was there. I've never, I have never experienced that. Okay. Were you aware of Gina and Caitlin's practices when it came to that? I never worked directly with Gina and Caitlin. Because it sounds like they had you working the floor by yourself, essentially doing everything before you left, is what I gathered.

Starting point is 00:35:39 Yeah, I mean, I would not decide. agree with that statement. Yeah. I'm everything. I mean, they did a lot of, like business stuff. Yeah. More of the like running of it. One of the claims was that she wasn't aware that shoulder dysplasia was like an

Starting point is 00:35:59 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, that person has never made a claim and against me. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:36:10 She did she did tell me that, which is why I want to make sure I reach out and we discussed it. And then there are a few others who have. There are people that have been in care and come back to care. And now because they're being contacted and kind of rallied, honestly, you know, have you ever heard of a witch hunt where you're just? just kind of go after anybody you can find and you see them information. Yeah, they said that you would say that actually. They said that that's what Origins has claimed this whole time.

Starting point is 00:36:53 Well, that's what Origins was claiming. And I doubted it. I did. But now it's like every single midwife who ever came across, whoever transferred somebody legitimately, whoever had somebody, you know, who had, who had, not a bad outcome, but there's one person who's upset now because they wanted me to be their midwife and I wasn't on call. I mean, I can't speak to all of that.

Starting point is 00:37:22 I feel a little bit confusing, if that makes sense. Yeah, my perspective from the people that I've spoken to is that they feel that they had really... To Kristen initially and was helpful to her. So now I'm like, what's going on? Kristen did not share anything negative with me about you. Or I would have reached out sooner. I had no very little interaction until after her outcomes. So that makes sense.

Starting point is 00:37:59 Right, right. She said that you left. And then Jennifer, who was a student, became her, quote, midwife, who had no business practicing. Did you know that they were going to handle the clients that way, that they were going to be passed off to a student? I knew that they were unethical, and I told them that they needed to provide someone to be her receptor

Starting point is 00:38:26 because I would no longer do it. Yeah. Did you ever feel like when you were leaving, like, the need to alert the authorities? Did you worry that what Gina and Caitlin were doing were criminal? At the time I did not. I did, I was very blindsided by the takeover. They are very good con artists.

Starting point is 00:38:54 And they kept everything very close to their chest. Okay. After I left, there were some things that started happening that made me feel like there wasn't much always. oversight at the old practice. I had nothing to do with the practice after that. And they're basically, their claim against you was essentially that you had breached your contract. But your claim, no? Their claim, not, no, they claimed that later when they sued me for saying I was going to open a birth center later.

Starting point is 00:39:29 Gotcha. The subsequent lawsuit, right. That's the second lawsuit. Right. Sorry. Yes. Yes. Okay. Read the answer from my attorney because that's the real story. Yeah. Okay. That's what really happened. I didn't know I needed a heavy hitter lawyer.

Starting point is 00:39:44 I thought I was just like negotiating to get out of a terrible situation with them. Yeah. One is when I hired somebody and spent the mass part of my savings to put the real story out there. They read that story. That's the real story of what happened. And then they decided they had nothing. So be very careful because I do have a real good attorney. and some of what you're insinuating has never been brought until this started.

Starting point is 00:40:15 I hear what... You do understand that people can say anything. Like I could say right now... Amy, I've been doing this a long time. I'm very well aware of how everything works. But I appreciate your time. Thank you very much. Bye.

Starting point is 00:40:28 Bye. Bye. She reached out to me March 16th. I'll just read it to you. It says, I honor your feelings and memories. even if they are different than mine. It was an honor to be a part of your labor and birth, and I remember that day so clearly.

Starting point is 00:40:58 The maconium was trapped behind his head and unknown until birth. It was a shock, and we acted quickly to support and stabilize while NICU was en route. Julie, a hospital-trained CNM, and I both remember the day so well. And then she sent a link to Maconium Aspiration Syndrome. And that was her message. So basically she's not sorry and you're wrong. She didn't even know what I remember. That's the funny thing.

Starting point is 00:41:27 She hasn't heard anything from me. She sent me a link to Bocony Mastration Sima. Obviously, I understand what that is. I have to live through it. I'm still living through it. The timing couldn't be better for my rage. Because this week, I had to take tough to the neurologist again. He had to have an EEG.

Starting point is 00:41:49 He's sitting there saying to me, they're putting the things on his head, Mommy, what's wrong with my brain? I have to tell him, nothing is wrong with your brain, and you are perfect. But we have to make these check-ins, and we have to do this stuff. When I'm long and gone, he's going to have to keep up with his own paperwork and make his own appointments, all because of this one day. I wrote her back. I just gave it to her. Some of what I said was, it does seem like we do indeed remember the day different. Julie is a CNN, but you and Megan were the midwives in charge of our care, and you being the owner of origins at the time, I feel like it defaults to you. I'm fully aware of maconium aspiration

Starting point is 00:42:33 syndrome now. Unfortunately, I wasn't at the time I was giving birth. One thing you might be forgetting was that when my water broke there at the birthing center, I had mconium stained amniotic fluid, which then put me at a much higher risk for MAS, maconium aspiration syndrome. So it should shouldn't have been a shock that maconium was present at delivery. She's saying it was a shock. Like she didn't know it was there. What are you talking about? My water had been broke for over 31 hours with mconium by the time my son was born.

Starting point is 00:43:07 And I said, had the risk been explained to me that your child could be brain damaged or die, then I would likely have chosen to transfer with this vital information. I was owed at least the full explanation of the risks of staying. Then no, he was not stabilized. I have hospital paperwork that shows he had no respiratory effort and no heart rate when the NICU team arrived. In fact, he was not alive. I told her, there's a survivor group of origins with over 40 people in it. I tell her about the mental side effects for me and my husband.

Starting point is 00:43:43 I wrote her this very heartfelt, an eight-page thing to her. Like, here's what I think you did wrong. Here's where you can do better. This is how it affected me and others around. basically I hope we can kind of move forward. The Christian woman in me is trying to forgive Amy Tate. But she writes, Sarah, I'm glad you shared your feelings. I respect them and wish your family nothing but the best.

Starting point is 00:44:03 I do want to clarify that Julie was not a student at the time. She was a CNM, but training in out of hospital birth as she had only worked in the hospital. Tough did have a heartbeat the whole time. We performed NRP and called over the NICU team. They had MAS. at the hospital and told us it took longer because they had to come over separately. We use suction, oxygen, and the Doppler the whole time, and they intubated when they got there. Also, the survivors of the origins group was started long after I was bought out. I do not know the people in that group.

Starting point is 00:44:40 And then she wrote, I will also never forget tough. So then I wrote back, here is the paperwork from the trained medical professionals about what happened to him, and I'll let that be the end. It's a screenshot from his actual Baylor University paperwork that says, on arrival, infant noted to have no respiratory effort and no heart rate. Infant suction due to visible maconium noted in mouth and PPV initiated after 30 seconds of effective PVV and while awaiting intubation equipment, chest compressions initiated due to absent heart rate. I'm sorry she's trying to rewrite history. How would she know that when they weren't even monitoring him?

Starting point is 00:45:20 him all the time. I'm not sure. After I sent her the thing with the paperwork, she wrote, we repeatedly state our sorrow, love, and prayers for tough in your family during and after the transport. You have always been in thought and prayer. I can only speak to the heart rate we were getting during the neonatal resuscitation we performed as we waited for the transport team. I do appreciate you sitting this over. Many blessings. I'm happy to say again, I'm so deeply sorry for the trauma you experienced. She has yet to say I did anything, and probably maybe

Starting point is 00:45:53 for legal reasons. She doesn't want to say that. She'll say, I'm sorry for the trauma you went through. It's like doing something to somebody and going, I'm sorry that it made you feel that way. Actually, that's not the same thing. I went to Origen's website and it says, if your health care provider

Starting point is 00:46:09 needs your records, please sign release to this email address. I haven't heard anything from them. And I'm like, you know what, I'll just go straight to Amy, hey Amy, I'd like a copy of my medical records. She says, I'm so happy to send them to you, Sarah. What is your email address? And I gave her the address.

Starting point is 00:46:25 Then she wrote, I'm also happy to meet again and hear you. I value all of your feedback and honor your feelings. I pray peace over your heart. But I still don't have any medical records, so there's that. That's what irritates me the most. I'm not holier than now. You don't have to talk to me like I'm a holy roller, okay? But I feel like that's what she tries to do.

Starting point is 00:46:47 Amy owns her own birth center now, Swiss Avenue Birth and Wellness Center. It's literally on the same street that Origins was on. Another small little Victorian house. My point in saying all of this is that it wasn't the name of Origins that has done all of this. It's the midwives. Yes, it was a hellhouse. There's a lot of bad stuff that happened in there. But who was facilitating that? Origins got shut down.

Starting point is 00:47:16 And now we just have like four different origins that have sprouted up in its place. Amy Tate was Jennifer Crawford's preceptor. Yes. And then Amy left. Because Gina and Caitlin were allegedly overseeing Jennifer Crawford. She might as well as Amy left. I mean, this is Jennifer's own words. It's screenshots.

Starting point is 00:47:40 June 20th of 2019. Now, don't forget my son. He was born April of 2000. So just two months later, Jennifer started. First day, first birth. It was an honor to be a part of the love and compassion that goes with out of hospital midwifery care. What is sad is that March 25th of 2020, she posted, Midwifery is hard. This beautiful sleeping baby and her sweet family are in my continued thoughts and prayers.

Starting point is 00:48:13 I don't know who that is referencing, but that is very. referencing another baby lost March 25 of 2020. She just has this on her Facebook. Here a world lost a baby and who knows how many that there are. According to Jennifer's Facebook July 18th of 2020 she writes a post still in awe my dream is finally coming true so thankful for my amazing preceptor Amy Tate and all my midwife mentors who cheer me on. They have their name and then they have these letters behind it. Do we all know what all these letters mean? Do you go and Google licensed midwife or CNM certified nurse midwife? They've got these letters behind. To me, it meant something in the medical world. If the state of Texas would allow a place like origins

Starting point is 00:49:01 to have many, many, many babies born there. One would assume that if this is legal, then they have gone through a rigorous check. If I could implore any women to please do more research. than I did. If I could go back and tell myself everything, I would say, think of your baby, not of you and your birthing experience that you want to have. I think that every birth can be magical in itself, whether it is inside the walls of a hospital or in a birthing center. But to me, it's not about me. It's about your unborn baby who doesn't have the choice of how's he going to come out. If I wanted to go all natural, I could have done that within the safety of a hospital. I think midwives are great.

Starting point is 00:49:50 I saw a wonderful midwife group after tough with my subsequent children that delivered in a hospital. I got admitted and I was, quote, trying to go natural again. I gave myself like a 12-hour limit. I'm not going to go through 30-something hours of this again. And so I hit my 12-hour mark. I got an epidural. I do not know why I ever suffered for days on end in this kind of pain. So I put my makeup on.

Starting point is 00:50:13 and, you know, the whole thing. I was the happiest girl in the world. The midwife, she said, we don't have to call it, but you might be in for a long push. And after what happened last time, I don't want this to be any type of emergent situation. I said, you know what? I am perfectly fine with the C-section.

Starting point is 00:50:32 What's safest for my baby is to call the OB and get him here right now, and let's just get them out, let's do that. And she said, I do think that that's what's safest for you and your baby, as long as you're okay with that. And this is a midwife thing. this. She's not here trying to push for a natural birth, and I respected her more for that. And I said, call the doc. I've already got my makeup on. You're telling me I could hold my baby within an hour. Like, let's do this. My second son, Rocky, came out, and I just wanted him to breathe.

Starting point is 00:50:58 That was it. I could care less what amount of drugs they pumped into me or didn't. I just wanted to hear him cry, and he did. And he's perfect. He's fine. He's all mine. And it didn't matter that I had a C-section with him. That was the safest option at that point. At the end of the day, it's you and your baby that come home or don't come home. Whoever you birth with an OB, a midwife, they all just go back to their lives and keep going. They can forget what happened or how traumatic they really were. Because only you go home with your baby and are left to deal with the doctor appointments, you can feel like they're part of your family and get that warm and fuzzy and the birthing center is beautiful and great.

Starting point is 00:51:41 It's just a business. Burthing is business. And I hate to say it like that, but it's 100% true. And I think that that's why we didn't get transferred to the hospital, because they probably would lose out on money. What do you hope that listeners will remember when they're hearing these stories this season? If you have any doubt in your head, get a second opinion or go to the hospital. If something isn't right, advocate for yourself, advocate for your baby.

Starting point is 00:52:09 if something is off, it's okay to get out of there. I had that bargain with God that if he'd save my son, I'd tell as many people as possible. I need to tell his story, not only for his sake, but for my sake. I need to get this off my chest. I finally this week joined the Origins Survivor's group. There's big stuff happening because of what went wrong at Origins. I'm very proud of Kristen and all the girls.

Starting point is 00:52:35 I'm kind of late to the game, but I'm getting involved. I know you'll move on to other stories and things. will happen, but you know what, this needed to happen for the birth community and obviously for Dallas, but where else this is going to reach? I hope that Malik's Law gets pushed through and we can make birthing safer. It's not about attacking the midwives. It's about making birth safer for the moms and the babies because that just should be the bottom line. Sarah and Tuff, thank you so, so much for sharing your story with us. I appreciate all of your energy and time. I know it's not easy to revisit and I genuinely appreciate it so much.

Starting point is 00:53:14 Absolutely. I'm happy to finally be able to tell our story almost six years later. Very grateful. Monday, April 21st, 2025, our team reached back out to Amy Tate with a full document with quotes of allegations that would be included in episodes 12 and 13 this season. The following day, she sent her final statement in regards to these allegations. Hi, thank you for your message and for the opportunity to respond. I understand that I am being named in an upcoming episode of something was wrong in connection to care I provided as a midwife. While I cannot discuss the details of any specific client experience due to confidentiality,

Starting point is 00:54:04 I want to express my heartfelt empathy to any family who has experienced pain, fear, or lasting harm in their birthing journey. Birth is one of the most sacred, vulnerable moments in a person's life. As a provider, I've always held that responsibility with deep care. If a client remembers their experience differently than I intended, or if my presence contributed to harm in ways I did not realize at the time, I carry that seriously. Since 2021, I stepped away from origins and built a new practice continuing my work,

Starting point is 00:54:39 which is rooted in reflection, integrity, and transparency. My license remains in good standing, and I continue to serve families with the same commitment I've held throughout my career, to walk beside them with care, clarity, and humility. Thank you again for the opportunity to respond and for amplifying voices that often go unheard. With respect, Amy F. Tate, L.M. CPM, clinical director, Swiss Avenue Birth and Wellness Collaborative.

Starting point is 00:55:15 Next time, on something was wrong. Then all of a sudden, I just remember, I just hear this pouring sound. It's someone who's pouring water on the floor. I'm like, what is that? I found out it was me. I was hemorrhaging because the placenta had abrupt it from the wall. I delivered the placenta. And normally a placenta is the size of like a large dinner plate.

Starting point is 00:55:37 And mine was the size of a small pancake. So it just shows you like how damaged and how unhealthy that Listen to Was. Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production, created and produced by executive producer Tiffany Reese, Associate producer's Amy B. Chessler and Lily Rowe, with audio editing and music design by Becca High. Thank you to our extended team, Lauren Barkman, our social media marketing manager,

Starting point is 00:56:10 and Sarah Stewart, our graphic artist. Thank you to Marissa. Travis and our team at WME, Wondry, Jason and Jennifer, our cybersecurity team, Darkbox Security, and my lawyer, Alan. Thank you endlessly to every survivor who has ever trusted us with their stories. And thank you, each and every listener, for making our show possible with your support and listenership. Special shout out to Emily Wolf for covering Gladrag's original song You Think You For Us This Season. For more music by Emily Wolf. check out the episode notes or your favorite music streaming app.

Starting point is 00:56:48 Speaking of episode notes, there every week you'll find episode-specific content warnings, sources, and resources. Until next time, stay safe, friends.

Something Was Wrong - S23 Ep12: Tuff

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.