Something Was Wrong - S25 Ep11: Long Term Impact

Starting point is 00:00:00 Something was wrong is intended for mature audiences and discusses topics that may be upsetting. Please consume the following episodes with care. This season discusses sexual, physical, and psychological violence. For a full content warning, sources, and resources for each episode, please visit the episode notes. Opinions shared by guests of the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of Broken Cycle Media. The podcast in any linked materials should not be misconstrued as a substitution for legal or medical advice. We reached out to Professor Cato Bus and the University of Central Oklahoma for comment in response to allegations in the weeks prior to this episode's release. We have not received a response.

Starting point is 00:00:47 Thank you so much for listening. Previously, on something was wrong Kato until you talk to someone. Previously, on something was wrong. I had decided to study theater. Cato, who is the person that abused me, was the first person in the department that I met at all.

Starting point is 00:01:26 I've never been in an environment where people adored a person more than the general population of students adored this person. Cato and I met winter of my senior year of high school at a recruiting event in North Texas. He was very paternal to me in a lot of ways whenever we first met. I was at his absolute back in college. Later on, whenever shit kind of hit the fan,

Starting point is 00:01:57 he relied on that loyalty a lot. the summer in between my freshman and sophomore year is when I really started to notice. He is really focusing on Miranda. He cast me to be the lead, Eurida C. He would call me into his office once rehearsal had started almost every day before rehearsal. The hours before and after rehearsal looked very different after my confession of feelings towards him. I will not say that every single sexual experience I had with him was forced, but all of it carries the weight of the confusing aspects of being groomed and manipulated.

Starting point is 00:02:43 I was one of the only people that she disclosed about this relationship to when it started. At the time, Morgan and I are in a play together. She had disclosed to me an experience she had where Cato had sexually harassed. her on an away trip where alcohol was involved. I told Rihanna about what happened to me in 2015. She looked at me and she was like, he and Miranda are in a relationship. I told Rihanna, we have to report this. The next day, I call my theater ed advisor.

Starting point is 00:03:18 That's when I got introduced to UCO's Title IX office. Funnily enough, I received the email of the dean's decision It was a Friday that we were still at KCACTF. Ultimately, she found him not responsible. I then decided that I wanted to file a title line complaint against him. I have the results that the university sent to me. Based on our conversation and your desired outcome, the university has implemented relative sanctions against the respondent

Starting point is 00:03:53 and considered this matter closed and resolved. Within a month, my life was the same. His life was, as far as I know, pretty much the same. Nothing changed. That's when we agreed to do the lawsuit. She had told us that the media might pick it up because the media picks up things like this. I was not in any way prepared for it to be picked up so quickly. About a year after we filed the lawsuit, she let us know about a Supreme Court decision that came out that affected

Starting point is 00:04:28 Title IX cases, and then I found a blog article talking about how one of UCO's Title IX lawsuits had been dismissed. The publication that released that, the last words were from UCO. They didn't reach out to any of us. So I felt powerless and voiceless. We knew that the case would be dropped, but to actually find it out and not find it out directly from this attorney that had really made it seem like she cared was pretty awful. All right.

Starting point is 00:05:05 It is Monday, February 23rd, 9.51 a.m. Pacific Time. And I'm here with Survivor, Amy. We met through some random circumstances here. Amy, do you want to tell listeners how we became connected? Yeah. My name is Amy. And I've been a listener of the show since COVID times, a regular listener. And I just happened to be catching up on podcast last week, it being something was wrong.

Starting point is 00:05:37 I was listening to the current season, the beginning of it, talking about the survivors from University of Central Oklahoma. And the name Cato came in and the name was familiar to me because I know Cato best. Do you mind if I see if I can patch in our other Amy, ABC, to see if she's, who could talk to us for a second because she's the one who called me and told me about your submission. One sec. Amy, I wanted to pause really quick and get ABC on the line because ABC, Amy B. Chesler, who is a co-producer on the show, she's the one who came across your submission and she called me.

Starting point is 00:06:19 ABC, will you tell Amy what that was like for you? Well, this whole season is very hard hitting. But when I heard the story, you know, about Cato, the very beginning of hearing about this, we've heard about all these places he's lived. And I was literally just waiting for some submission to come through thinking there's no way we won't hear from someone in his past. I woke up really early one morning. I checked the inbox as usual because I've been trying to stay on top of things. And Amy's submission was sitting right there. And the moment I read it, I felt extremely deeply for you. And I'm so sorry that you've had to navigate everything that you've been

Starting point is 00:07:00 forced to navigate, but it was a slice of validation, I think, potentially for the other survivors. And it was also gut-wrenching and eye-opening to see just how long he's been at this. I pray that this might open the school's eyes to like, this is a pattern of over 20 years we're talking about. Presented with all this information in a linear way to still ignore it, there's just no excuse. I don't get it. I mean, I do because we see it every day. But I just feel so typical at this point and that's unfortunate. 100%. ABC, I know you got to hop off. You got a what came next reporting girl is booked and busy. We love you. Well, I'm so glad Amy got to meet ABC too because she works so hard on the show and she's been working so much on this season with me. I know she's

Starting point is 00:07:56 extremely emotionally invested the way the whole team is and she'll be happy that she got to meet you. Likewise. Going back to 1998, I believe it was around early springtime, can you walk listeners through how you came to meet Cato? Yeah. So when I was in high school, we did a musical every two years. In the late 90s, in 98, I was a senior in high school and it was the year for our musical to happen. Our theater teacher was out from a medical injury, I guess she sustained. So we had brought in some ringers to direct the musical. So there were three people, Cato and his partner, that did the blocking and the lines aspect of it. And then another gentleman that was brought in to direct the musical parts of it with the Pits and the singers and all of that. Cato and his partner,

Starting point is 00:08:54 were new to me, but not new to many of the other students who had worked with them and other capacities, playhouses, and other productions. The vibe from the students was that they were very excited and really liked Cato and his partner. There was a lot of respect there and they were young and had a lot of great energy to them. It seemed like they were on the road to big things. So there was a lot of excitement to have these people directing us. So that was the first time I met Cato and his partner. To your understanding, this is the same partner that he currently had that the survivors from UCO referenced because they share a child.

Starting point is 00:09:38 Yes, that is absolutely true. At that point, I think that it was a two-year-old daughter, like a toddler age, that they shared together. And so they share a child together. It was framed pretty early on in whatever conversations I had with Cato that they were not together, really. They're not romantic and that they're just raising a child together. That old story. What was your impression of Cato?

Starting point is 00:10:08 I know it's been a long time. It's been 28 years. But what do you recall about initially meeting him, if anything? I recall that he had charisma, very smart and seems like someone you should listen to. I remember he had dark-rimmed glasses that were really cool, kind of hipster glasses before hipsters became a thing. He just seemed like a friendly, funny guy who commanded the space. What was the musical that you were working on and had you done musicals prior?

Starting point is 00:10:41 The musical that was chosen for that year was. was a musical called chess that is probably not a super popular musical. What people do know it, and it has great music. Like One Night in Bangkok, that's my favorite song that's from that, because it's like so inappropriate for high schools to be singing on the stage. I had done some musicals, but really I was into music. Like I was not a theater kid. I was a music kid, so I did all the band and orchestra and choir, lessons, all that.

Starting point is 00:11:12 I would say I'm not a great actor by any means, but I had a good enough voice that afforded me the opportunity to land one of the main roles in the musical. And do you think the fact that you were one of the leads in the musical gave Cato a bit more access to you than the average person? Yeah, it definitely afforded more access to me. It was a small group that had a majority of the lines and songs. the musical. So there was certainly access and one-on-one or small coachings together. Other survivors have described a gradual increase in special attention. Did you experience that

Starting point is 00:12:04 same type of behavior from Cato? I did. Even though it's been a long time and I can't recall the specific details, there would be musical practice after school. And so I'm a Assuming that I probably saw him at the beginning of rehearsal, or after rehearsal, we were having a conversation and maybe at that point we ended up going on drives. My best friend had said that she remembers me saying something about dropping him off at his house or going to his house, but I do not remember that. We'd have days where we focused on the music or other days that we did blocking. And so in those days, there would be opportunities to have the one-on-one sessions or smaller groups for one. the one-on-one personal attention started to grow. Soon we were going on rides together around town,

Starting point is 00:12:58 and I would be the one driving. I'd pick him up because I think he was sharing a car with his partner, so I would pick him up, and we would go on drives around town. I don't know how many times that happened, but there were multiple drives. It would just be talking and conversation and probably some leg rubbing or hand-holding.

Starting point is 00:13:18 One in particular, we ended up going to dinosaur hill, which is a hill in the middle of the town that I was from that kind of separated the east and west side of town. I just remember sitting on, I think, like a cement dinosaur and having a conversation with him about who knows what. Those felt very meaningful, those rides. I don't know what we were talking about, but it felt important. And he did make me a mixed tape of Leonard Cohen's songs, which I had a tape player in my car. at the time. And so that was probably on constant play. That made me feel like, oh, wow, he really took the time to make this special tape. But then before I knew it, there was definitely a flirtatious

Starting point is 00:14:06 dynamic that began. I know that I wasn't getting calls at home at the beginning. It was towards the end or after the production that I was getting called. So it definitely escalated. I don't remember all of them, but I do remember probably one of the last calls I ever got from him. And it was the day of high school prom. I was getting ready for prom and he called. The phone was handed to me and I'm sure I was totally giddy and excited and talking about going to prom with my group of friends. And then he said that he wished he was taking me to prom, which made me feel gross. Even about that, I thought that was a really lame. thing for a 28-year-old to tell an 18-year-old that they wanted to go to prom.

Starting point is 00:14:55 Even I didn't really want to go to prom that bad. I think you had mentioned in the pre-interview that your mom had answered the phone when he called. Yeah, my mom answered the phone. Just shows the boldness of him. Yeah, it does show the boldness. And I'm sure that was certainly not the first time that he called. And it's a family line landline in those days so anyone could pick up. Did your parents think anything of it or make it?

Starting point is 00:15:20 any comments to you, if you recall? I think that maybe with my mom, there was probably some raised eyebrows, but we didn't ever have a conversation about it. And she never asked if anything was going on. It was a different time, I think. And it was probably not even crossing her mind that we were having this, I don't know, relationship. I'm sure I probably was not coming home and telling them about our secret drives around town. I was keeping things very close to my chest and wasn't telling people just for like the messiness of it and also the dynamics of him and his partner.

Starting point is 00:16:01 And even though he says they're not together, it always felt like, I don't know what the deal is, but it's weird and it's not something I have seen before. So it was just different to me. What was your impression of Cato's partner? I know you mentioned that he used the same sort of story with you that he often used with the other survivors of like we're together,

Starting point is 00:16:25 but it's really about our child. We're not really together together. But she also worked on the musical with you, which is unique to the other survivors. What was your experience of her? I did not work with his partner nearly one-on-one as much as I did with Cato, and I don't remember why that was. but she was extremely professional, calm, friendly, really well-liked by everyone.

Starting point is 00:16:55 I don't have a bad thing to say about her. She was there and I think they had a young child, so I feel like he was around more than she was, but she was great. How long do you think you guys were rehearsing for this musical together? It was probably two to three months. I can't remember exactly when we started or when auditions happened and when it ended, but it was definitely the second half of the year. Things didn't really escalate sexually.

Starting point is 00:17:26 Like we were not having sex or doing any of that, except one of the nights of our performances, I think it was our final night, that everyone except my character was on stage for a number. So I was backstage. Kato found me and led me into the men's dressing room where he kissed me. It felt really exciting and exhilarating and just kind of crazy. And then I had to go on for one of the last numbers with the full cast and trying to go in and focus when this other thing had just happened was kind of crazy. emotionally that night, like after the play, you go home and you're processing this,

Starting point is 00:18:14 what's going through your mind in those moments? I've talked to my best friend in the last week about this, trying to get her perspective from like, how was I acting? What was going on? And what she kept saying is that her perspective was that I was really nervous and didn't know what to do. And I was really nervous about the fact of his part. and the child, that that was something that really bothered me, even though I'd been told that

Starting point is 00:18:44 there was nothing to be worrying about. In her perspective, she saw that I was really worried about it. And from my perspective, it was like I was really excited and it felt very good to be singled out to have special attention and that I had a kiss with someone that was older and that was really cool. I was like probably on top of the world. Performing is also so exhilarating, right? You work for months and then it's such an adrenaline rush and it feels like it could have been even more confusing because these experiences that you've had with him are all tied to this exciting event as well. For sure, absolutely. What was your communication like after the musical wrapped, if you recall? I was really fortunate in the timing of this because I was in my last semester of high school and by this time

Starting point is 00:19:40 I had things planned I was going to go on a European trip with our band and orchestra and I was going to come home and work for the summer and then go to Ohio for school so I had the next things to work toward and be excited about and not just to mention like finals and the end of school and all that. So this relationship just kind of fizzled out. Nothing dramatic happened. There was no fight or no weird pressure or anything. It was just kind of like I think we were both moving on in our lives. So how lucky for me that that is the way that it ended up because I was able to kind of put things in a box and be able to like pull that box out when I wanted to feel excited and put it back and not really think much of it. Do you think you had any concept of power imbalances when you were 18 years old?

Starting point is 00:20:49 No. I mean, I was thrilled just to have attention. Like, it was just a different time. I mean, it wasn't that long ago, but it just seemed like people wouldn't have maybe called that an abuse of power. I don't, maybe they would have. But it feels like it would have been just much more of a slap on the wrist and not like what it would be today. And that this is truly an abuse of power and it's completely wrong. As you got older and thought back on the relationship with Cato, did you start to see the experience differently? Like, for example, you mentioned at the time it felt really exciting. Did that with time as you got older changed the way that you saw the experience?

Starting point is 00:21:37 Yeah, for sure. I would feel like the start of that was the, the comments about wanting to take me to prom. I feel like that was a thing that planted the seed of even though I could draw on this experience for years after that is an exciting one. That seed of it started to grow. And certainly when Me Too kind of blew up, the framing changed as society was more open to hearing about these stories and women were sharing.

Starting point is 00:22:07 even though my story, it's not super scandalous and it was relatively PG. I can see it for what it is now. And as someone who is a woman as a mother, I can see, I wouldn't want my friends or my daughter to be in that kind of situation. I would want them to feel empowered to see through it for what it really was, which was a power imbalance. I think that there is more to be said about the long term. impact because while I've talked about how exciting that time felt and how good it felt to be

Starting point is 00:22:45 singled out, there was also the side of shame to it and secrecy. I talked about the anxiety and what my body was experiencing during that time with anxiety. And I didn't really know to put the words shame and anxiety and tie that to what my body was doing at the time. But certainly the Shame lasted the longest compared to like the excitement. I felt a lot of shame because it felt like, oh, I'm just this girl who any person that gave her attention, she'll just melt into that. I felt a lot of shame about that. And I felt the most shame about like, well, he told me that he's not with his partner. So I wanted to believe that.

Starting point is 00:23:32 But it was like, I always felt that was not quite right. And so that was a big source of shame for me as well. And that even grew more through the years. Now I recognize shame is not a helpful feeling to have. Now I can see, I'm not needing to put that blame on me. I was young and learning. My brain was not fully developed. And it was a big first in my life of many firsts of relationships, excitement, attraction,

Starting point is 00:24:04 and all that. And so it was a big deal for me as an 18-year-old. I've been able to finally come to terms with that and let the shame go and see it more realistically with a more level head and thank goodness. Time and therapy and all of that has helped me come to a much more reasonable stance on it, but also like I know it's wrong. I can see where I feel not at peace, but I feel like it is a chapter

Starting point is 00:24:34 that I have put behind me and I don't really think about anymore. Time has given me perspective and I'm grateful for that and I'm grateful to be able to see things for what they are. That I was just a convenient, young girl there at the right time,

Starting point is 00:24:52 at the right place. Yeah, well, that shame, we can sort of confront the shame as we have more information too, right? So as you got older and as you learn and as you hear about others' experiences, that's how we become more informed, and certainly that's why young girls are often targeted by men in power, because they know that they're more likely to have that

Starting point is 00:25:19 power dynamic work in their favor. It is certainly one of the tactics for sure, so I'm so glad you highlighted that because I feel like the impact, even from this one physical, interaction that you had. Look at the impact it had on you. And thank God he didn't have continued access to you, but based off of the other survivors' experiences, we could imagine had he continued to have contact to you, how it would have continued to escalate, which is what's scary because we know he continued teaching for the next 28 years. It just makes me really sad when you hear about perpetrators who have been able to get access and continue this behavior for such a long time. Yes, and not have consequences, like real consequences.

Starting point is 00:26:10 Well, I cannot thank you enough for being willing to reach out to us and speak out. I know it means a lot to the survivors. We thank you so, so much. I am so thankful for your listenership since COVID, and I'm so thankful that you reached out and that we were able to connect so quickly. Yeah, thank you for all the work that you and ABC do to share your stories, but also to let other survivors speak out and give people a venue to do that. It's really important work. Thank you so much.

Starting point is 00:26:44 At the time of this episode's release, the University of Central Oklahoma's website still lists Kato Bus as an interim assistant dean and professor. Neither the university nor Bus responded to our request for comment. but the university's public record speaks for itself. As reported in a 2022 article by U.C.T.O.S. was the subject of an ongoing Title IX investigation, UCO recommended him for promotion. The article states, quote, as seen in the March 22 Regional University System of Oklahoma Meeting Agenda, UCO recommended Kato Bus to be promoted to a full-time professor,

Starting point is 00:27:29 at the university. This decision comes after many conversations about UCO's $20 million budget deficit and the potential for faculty layoffs, end quote. Despite multiple women coming forward over the course of several years, the university moved forward with promotion. For the survivors who spoke in Chapter 2, that decision reinforces what they have already experienced, not just grooming, not just retaliation, but institutional betrayal. And as research continues to show, their experience is sadly not uncommon. Thank you to Miranda, Olivia, Morgan, Rihanna, and Amy for sharing their experiences with us. Next time on something was wrong, you'll meet Marissa, a college student whose night out

Starting point is 00:28:20 ended in sexual assault and whose decision to report would stretch into years of investigation. court dates and Title IX meetings, a relentless system navigation with institutional confusion, athletic culture, a problematic detective, and a system that moved slowly while her life did not. College is a time where people are experimenting and people are learning about themselves. I had gone to a lot of parties with student athletes,

Starting point is 00:28:53 both of UVU and BYU, where they were drinking and they were doing things that the LDS faith doesn't really condone. We had heard that these guys were going over to S.L.'s house. We were mostly just trying to meet new people, kind of hang out and see where the night took us. There is so much going through my head. I am not even considering still that something so horrible was going to occur.

Starting point is 00:29:25 Thank you so much to each and every survivor and guest for sharing their experiences with us. And thank you for listening. Something Was Wrong is a broken cycle media production created and executively produced by Tiffany Reese. Thank you endlessly to our team. Associate producer, Amy B. Chessler, social media marketing manager Lauren Barkman, graphic artist Sarah Stewart,

Starting point is 00:29:50 and audio engineers Becca High and Stephen Wack. Marissa and Travis at WME, audio boom, and our legal and security partners. Thank you so much to the incredibly talented Abiyomi Lewis for this season's gorgeous cover of Gladrag's original song, You Think You, from their album, Wonder Under. Thank you to music producer Janice J.P. Pacheco for their work on this cover recorded at the Grill Studios in Emoryville, California. Find all artist's socials linked in the episode notes to support and hear more. If you'd like to share your story with us, please head, to Something Was Wrong.com.

Starting point is 00:30:33 If you would like to help support the show, you can subscribe and listen ad-free on Apple Podcasts, purchase a sticker from our sticker shop at brokencyclemedia.com, share the podcast with a loved one, or leave us a review. Want to stay up to date with us? Follow us on Instagram and TikTok at Something Was Wrong podcast. As always, thank you so much for listening. Until next time, stay safe friends.

Starting point is 00:31:00 Thank you.

Something Was Wrong - S25 Ep11: Long Term Impact

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