Something Was Wrong - S7 Ep7: WCN Presents: [Amy B. Chesler] Season 7 Update

Episode Date: September 11, 2024

*Content warning: death threats, litigation, sibling, verbal and sexual abuse, stalking, and murder.Amy B. Chesler is an author, podcaster, survivor, and victim advocate. Her experiences of sibling abuse were shared on Something Was Wrong Season 7, and her experiences afterwards are largely what inspired the creation of the show, What Came Next. WCN Episode 1, [Amy B. Chesler] This Shit Doesn’t End (released 3/3/23) highlights the continued abuse and terror she faced at the hands of her imprisoned brother; in this episode she explains how she was finally freed from the criminal justice systems (in just the last few weeks) since this podcast’s launch.Something Was Wrong Season 7:https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/2dec880d-db88-4156-aa12-4f82dc496422/episodes/adb93563-71ee-484a-82a8-b74b74aec0c7/something-was-wrong-s7-e1-extreme-anger?ref=dm_sh_BeYRh06neVQMkqxYAAAP0lFnUWhat Came Next, Episode 1: [Amy B. Chesler] This Sh*t Doesn’t End https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/amy-b-chesler-this-sh-t-doesnt-end/id1674051643?i=1000602598564Amy’s Instagramhttp://www.instagram.com/amybcheslerAmy’s Facebookhttp://www.Facebook.com/amybcheslerWorking for Justice: One Family’s Tale of Murder, Betrayal, & Healinghttps://amzn.to/42adAo7Amy’s Petition (Now Closed):https://chng.it/fxqZyJRRFree + Confidential resources: somethingwaswrong.com/resources

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when you sign up for a 30-day trial at outable.com. Membership is 1495 a month after 30 days. Cancel any time. There's more to imagine when you listen. What came next is intended for mature audiences only. Episodes discuss topics that can be triggering, such as emotional, physical and sexual violence, suicide and murder. I am not a therapist, nor am I a doctor.

If you're in need of support, please visit something was wrong.com for a list of non-profit organizations that can help. Opinions expressed by my guests on the show are their own and do not necessarily represent the views of myself or broken cycle media. Resources and source material are linked in the episode notes. Thank you so much for listening. actually cannot believe that this is an update that I have for you. I still am in shock that all of this happened. I had no idea when this podcast came out two months ago now, that I would have

an update in my journey already. It has been wild to say the least, but the last month or so in my life, I have a renewed faith in the system, to be honest. It feels wild to be saying that, But these are some wild fucking updates, and I can't wait to tell you. Before I continue, I do want to say thank you to Tiffany. I don't know what I would have done without you these last couple months, the last month, for sure. Without your presence there that day with me, I'm just so thankful for you. So let's pick up where episode one left off.

I had mentioned I had a petition going to keep my brother in prison forever, just so he wouldn't get out. The parole system had been kicking in high gear. He had a parole hearing at which he had threatened my life, my children's lives. Then he had postponed his hearing after requesting a move up north to prisons. I had filed with the parole system for that death threat. This is a letter I got in response from the prison system after I had filed against my brother for the death threat. This says, this correspondence is informing you that the prison, I'm not going to name it, has conducted an inquiry into your concerns regarding the statement made to you by your brother, inmate, Jesse Winnick, during his plural suitability hearing.

Specifically, we retrieve the transcript, and they actually quoted it says, according to the transcript, he stated, I'm going to ask some friends to come to see you. Then he says my address, which I obviously won't say. Is that where you still live? And then he repeats my address. It says, although we understand and empathize with you, what you've been through and the loss of your mother, that statement alone is not suitable and does not meet the criteria for a threat. However, that is completely ignoring the fact that he was slicing his thumb across his throat,

the whole interview, and also I believe there was an explicit threat about two sentences later. So not only did they not take my threat validly, they also just kind of ignored me and pushed me away. So that was where I was at when I received the March 23rd phone call. At about 8.30 in the morning, I literally woke up to a phone call, informing me that my brother, Jesse, which I don't like to call him my brother, because I don't want to claim him. I also, for what it's worth, I used the word Rory in season seven. That was because I had just used the named Rory in my book that was going to be coming out. And I chose to do that because writing the word Jesse that many times and having to see it was a task that was insurmountal. for me. So on March 23rd, I got a call. And the call said, Jesse has postponed his parole hearing

again. I about lost my damn mind. First of all, I knew that I would be getting a notification at some point because 2023 was when the postponement was until. I didn't think it would be another postponement. I didn't think that was actually a possibility. However, that phone call, they said he has postponed his parole hearing, I had a meltdown. I started crying immediately. I was like, how is this even possible? You need to give me him more information. The poor young girl on the phone did not have that information.

So she said, I'm going to put you in touch with my superior. I think within him maybe an hour or so I was speaking to her superior. He also had really nowhere to go. He had asked me, do you have the transcript for the parole hearing? because I explained to him, how is this possible? How is he up for parole? How is he controlling this whole situation

when there's a death threat hanging over my head? He says, ma'am, he has postponed his parole hearing. I can't give you that much more information. How about I put you in touch with my supervisor as well? I absolutely said, yes. Sign me up. Send me to whoever is in charge. That put me in touch with the chief of victim resources

for California prisons. Now, what I learned through this process is there are factions of victim resources. Before the inmate is sentenced, you would be getting victim resources from the jail system or the court system. And afterwards, the victim resources is specific to the prison system. So once you are a victim of an inmate in the prison system in California, that gets sent to the victim resources that I was in touch with on that day. The chief calls me back. This is all within one day, by the way. I feel very blessed and thankful that they were taking this seriously.

I obviously was having a very hard time. The chief hops on the phone. She's very congenial, very kind. She said, look, I can tell you that your brother postponed his parole hearing because he has too many charges against him currently. And I said, what do you mean? She said, well, last time, you know, you were there at the hearing. He postponed it because he wanted to take self-help classes and try to go

into his parole hearing being more suitable. And I said, yeah, I heard that pile of shit. He did it right after threatening my life, saying, yeah, maybe I'll take some self-help glasses and get better. Then she said, this parole hearing, he actually postponed it because he's up for new charges. I said, I think I know about that. A woman at the prison last time said he was up for attempted murder.

And he's got a lot of charges against him right now. And I said, what does that mean for me? The chief victim resources person said, it means that you should probably get to the bottom of what those charges are. I see he attempted to murder somebody. That is a big charge. I'm preparing myself for everything mentally, basically, at this point, thinking, I don't know if this is good.

I don't know if this is bad. I don't know what's happening. And she said, I'm going to walk you through getting the information off of the internet. I'm going to help you figure out what your brother's charges are. Exactly. Let's figure out what's happening. and let's get some more information. She literally sat there on the phone with me and guided me.

I didn't even know there was a website. I don't know what's public information or not. I'm not a lawyer. I'm only in the system in the ways that I get reintroducted that I share on my social media. Anyway, she's sitting there on the computer with me. She says, here, it's only $4. This is how far I got. I found all his information.

You just need to pay the extra $4 and then you get everything. So I did. And I received a bunch of information. I deciphered it with her. In the end, she said, says this is the courthouse that your brother has a hearing at. Do you see that? It says March 30th. This is March 23rd, by the way. A week before his hearing for these attempted murder charges, which actually ended up being five charges. She says, this is happening in this courthouse in one

week from today. This is what you can do. You can file a police report to try to get your brother for this extra crime of the threat. You can try to call you. call the DA on the case, figure out what's happening on the 30th. I called the courthouse. A clerk picked up. I asked her for information. She said, I can't really give it to you? I said, well, can I find out the DA's name on the case? She gave it to me. I went to the internet. I googled that DA, and I found his information. I had also filed a police report on March 23rd. After talking to that woman, I was like, I'm going to cover my ass all the way. I didn't even know I could file a police report. I'm educating myself in the process, but that day I filed a police report against my brother for

the death threat, and I also reached out to the DA that was handling the charges against him for the attempted murder. I left him a message. He didn't call me back. I ended up sending him an email as well. I sent it from my broken cycle media email. I didn't say who I was. I just said, I want information about that case. I made it very straightforward, firm, and clear. That's generally how I try to communicate. I sent that by the next day. So within 24 hours, I had heard from him. He had said, what do you want to know about the case?

Do you want something on record? And I said, no. I'm that motherfucker sister. I explained the whole last 16 years in the legal system. I explained his death threat at the parole hearing. I explained everything. And the DA said to me, wow, it sounds like we might have another set of charges against him. And I was like, what does that mean?

The charges that were being delivered were explained to me as such. He was being given one count with five charges for attempted murder, attack on the public official, two weapons charges, and something else I keep forgetting. That would all result as one strike. That is what the DA eventually told me, that Jesse ended up building a medieval weapon called a mace. It's basically a ball with spikes on a chain. He built one in prison.

He also created a shank, and he attacked a correctional officer with those weapons. And it created this big fight. A bunch of other officers got involved and got hurt in the process of trying to stop my brother. It was caught on camera. He said, well, if you can get me that transcript, and magically, by that time, the chief officer of the victim resources had gotten me the transcript for that parole hearing. It was pretty mind-blowing how swift everything happened for me once everybody involved

had that level of advocacy and intention set towards me. I had already been in contact with the DA, and this is six days until my brother's hearing. Leading up to that March 30th hearing, he actually refused to attend the other ones. Before he was refusing to even get on the fucking bus to get to his hearings. Eventually, they had used force to get him there. There has to be a decree delivered to get somebody there by force or some order given. He had been moved up north to a prison to be near family that supports him. Yes, I have family that supports him.

It's mind-boggling to me every day. It's even more mind-boggling because when I was reviewing the transcripts that the chief victim resources officer sent me, I noticed Jesse actually literally asked to be moved up north. They said, yeah, yeah, sure, we probably can. And then he said, if you don't, I'm going to. going to fucking kill somebody here. He basically said, if you keep me in the person I'm in right now, I'm going to kill somebody. And then he attacked an officer. The fact that his victims were

correctional officers also made it so the system wanted to work for their favor. I know he had been in many other incidents with other inmates and they had never seen any more consequences for that. That's another reason why I think this unfolded differently. In that week before Jesse's hearing, I also sent the DA information from the transcript. I said, hey, he actually threatened to kill somebody if they left him in this prison. He tried to kill somebody and then they moved him. He was like, thank you for the evidence. In the week leading up to the hearing, I also turned in all the paperwork that I have.

Letters that Jesse tried to hire that hitman and created this stocking plan for this inmate that was from jail. That lasted to attempt four years after my mom's murder. I had those letters. I gave him everything. He went on to say, I reviewed the evidence from the hearing, everything. There is absolutely enough evidence to go after him for the death threat. The DA made it very clear that he was worried about getting these sentences tacked on to Jesse's crimes before his parole for my mom's murder was up again.

He was worried if we couldn't pin these extra crimes on him, he could be paroled, let out, then we'd lose track on him. So there was this time crunch that I felt we would never, ever meet or be able to find justice within, which was really traumatizing because my experiences up until then were that the justice system was slow, archaic, unsupportive, and often didn't deliver what it needed to deliver within any sort of predictable time range. The DA asks if I can come on March 30th. Fortunately, I had my kids. Unfortunately, I couldn't attend.

It was about an hour and a half drive from where I live anyway, so it was kind of a schlep to do that. He said, you know what, no worry, it's just a hearing. From the hearing, I get a text message from the DA saying, he wants to represent himself, which is a good thing, because I'm a trained lawyer, and he's a homicidal maniac. He didn't want to have a lawyer. He wanted to plead guilty that day. He was like, sentence me, I'm going to go to prison. I'll take all those charges you want to throw at me.

Because I just want to get the fuck out of jail. I want to go back to prison. And this is something a lot of people don't understand. But basically, when you are up for charges, you're in jail. When you are convicted, you go to prison. Because he was up for new charges, he was moved back to jail. Jesse pulls this shit about not wanting a lawyer and just want to and get out of jail. And the lawyer says, to me, after the hearing, Jesse is saying he wants to

play guilty. This might be all wrapped up. We're going to set another date. Do you think you can come to that? And I said, yes, if that is the final date, if you think that's going to happen, I will be there. I will do my best. He asked me to make a statement. I said, absolutely. So we started working towards that date. And that was April 17th, 2023. I am going into it, extremely nervous, absolutely hoping. thinking this is just going to be some more trauma, I don't know what to expect. The DA, who at this point I had built this relationship with leading up to the 17th. At whims, I would text him and I would say, oh my God, what if he has like a killer try to show up at the courthouse to kill me?

What if he's hired somebody? I don't know. My mind is running wild. So I would always text him with these worries. I said, look, last time he was in jail, he tried to hire a hitman to kill me. Can he be put in solitary confinement? Can you keep him away from other people? And he said, absolutely.

done and done. It's called administrative segregation, although in jail it's called something different. In prison, it's called administrative segregation ad seg. But basically, that's how much he delivered for me. I said, can he be solitary? He said, absolutely. He will be solitary so he cannot hire someone to hurt you. That was really only my biggest fear in jail. I apply to me media so I can record it. In the first episode of what came next, I explained how for that parole hearing, I was like, oh, I wanted to have someone record it. I didn't align it. I didn't align it. I. in time. What is misunderstood often is that we're not legally allowed to record those hearings unless we get cleared for that. So what I tried to do was get cleared as media. I wrote on my paperwork. I only want to bring in a handheld recorder, something small I can hold. I explained to the lawyer, look, I really want that because I need to protect my ass. I want to have a transcript of this immediately when it's over. Obviously, it took me two years to get the other one. I didn't even know I was allowed to have it. This is madness. So I apply the next day. the judge denies me.

The way it works is that application actually goes to the judge I would be recording. The judge said no. I had another meltdown. I was like, what the fuck is this woman trying to keep me from? I reached out to the DA. He was so gracious and graceful in his responses to me, which I'm super thankful for. Anytime I had an issue or a worry,

he would always respond in some gracious way. When I was pissed off about the media, approval or disapproval rather, I said to him, like, why? And he said, I don't know. I'll go talk to the judge. He went down to the judge, and he pleaded with her. He said, look, this woman has been victimized for so many years. It took her two years to get the transcript from the parole hearing. She just wants to cover her ass. She said, no. It'll make it a hoopla. I don't want that in my courtroom. I was pretty

upset. I was like, this woman is not aligning with me. She does not want to support me. I felt very unsupported going in. The Friday before the sentencing, which was a Monday, my aunt, the one that I keep in contact with, who is basically my children's surrogate grandmother in the wake of losing my mom, she texted me and said, my other aunt was going to be in town. So immediately the first thing I'm thinking is she's there to support Jesse. And I start panicking. I'm thinking, oh my God, he reached out to her and told her that he's up for a death threat against me and she's going to go and speak on his behalf. My mind is just running elsewhere. I texted the DA. Hey, trying to manage my expectations here, but will anybody be able to speak for Jesse's behalf? And he said, no, nobody will have the ability to

speak except the victims. At that point, I didn't even think to ask whether the correctional officer that Jesse attacked would be there. It turned out he wasn't. The DA explained that the people that are attempting to add charges to the inmates, they almost never show up. So literally, the people in this courtroom almost never hear an impact statement from a victim, and that will come up later. I, after hearing that felt a little better about my aunt being in town. I was thinking, well, if she's going to support, at least she'll just be sitting there. Then I thought, I guess this is actually almost a good thing.

She'll hear the reality that he is pleading guilty, supposedly at this point, to a death threat against me and my children. If she continues to support him after that, then that's just completely denying my entire experience. But I had you, Tiffany. You checked in. You were so amazing. That sentencing week, literally I could not have gotten through without you.

The person who's normally there for me, my aunt, is experiencing something right now that is keeping her from being able to do that. She's still very much in my heart and giving me support via text and calls and stuff. but she couldn't be there in a physical capacity. So I just don't know what I would have done without you, Tiffany. The listeners don't realize how deep our friendship is

and how much we support each other offline. Tiffany lives far for me. We don't see each other physically that often as much as we talk. So for her to say, look, I'm going to drive this many hours to get to you. I'm going to book us a hotel, so you don't have to drive in the morning and deal with traffic to be at the 8.30 hearing the next morning. I woke up. We went to the courthouse not knowing what to expect.

It took five minutes to get there, which was just... The traffic alone is so stressful, so to have combated cars before combating my brother, I don't know what that mental space would have seemed like or felt like. I'm so grateful that I had that support. We got there, and the DA was just kind of a superhero. I had explained to him so many fears leading up to this. I was literally thinking, maybe he's pleading guilty and taking the sentence supposedly just to get me there because he knows I'm going to come make a statement,

and he's going to have someone kill me. I mean, there were so many things running through my head. That was the worst one that I was going to be leaving that day and my kids wouldn't have a mom anymore. That was literally a thought I had. To have my best friends sitting there. I'm thinking, like, what if my best friend's kids are motherless because of my brother's selfish decisions?

One person's actions can change so many lives. This is what I've learned over and over again in this process. And through Jesse's actions, it was just really scary. The DA, though, very much helped me. not only in text that day he was wonderful. He drove us from the outside into the employee parking lot, walked us in, got us security.

He was just incredible. So we got there and he walks us in. He sits us in his office and he opens up his computer. This is like where the disconnect comes. But it always comes. People don't get it if you don't get it. But the DA basically turns on his computer and pulls up a file. He's like, this is the video?

And I was like, is that the video of Jesse attacking the correctional officer? I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, I don't want to see it. No, thank you. And then he goes, let me explain what could happen today. We didn't know if Jesse was there. Who knows if he'd show up? There were literally so many options coming into that day. He could have attacked me in front of the bailiff.

He could have tried to get me there and then not shown up to try to exhaust me some more like he did before. He could show up on the late bus, which would mean instead of an 8.30 hearing, he could have a 1.30 hearing. He could show up and say, fuck it, I'm not pleading guilty. There are a million things that could happen. We talked about the biggest ones. We also talked about all the charges that were being presented that day. We can charge him with a 36 to life sentence for him if he takes that today. That is what the DA is saying to me.

I'm thinking, wow, this is a very pivotal day. But I'm also thinking this is my brother. How is he going to fuck with me? We get to the courtroom. We find out Jesse has gotten there. He is there. He's waiting. Because of the way the day played out, there are actually other prison inmates being taken care of before him.

We were actually in a courthouse for felonies. And as far as I know, I think all of the cases being read were prison crimes unit cases. So there were other ones heard before ours. We had to watch them because we were sitting in the courtroom. Every time an inmate would come in and out, I would hear the door open. And I would hear Jesse's voice sometimes. And it was just so eerie. hearing that made me want to vomit, made me cry.

There was so many pauses. We did something before lunch. We did something after lunch. All these things. In the process, Tiffany and I are also sitting next to each other. Whenever things are not in session, we're talking a little bit quietly. When everybody was up from their seats, our whisper would increase a little bit. But otherwise, we were totally listening.

Reading the sign that sat right in front of us the whole time, there was this little sign at knee level behind the cordoning off from audience to the people in the case, there was a little sign that said, when court is in session, please don't talk. So we weren't. But when it wasn't in session, we definitely were talking minimally. And we kept getting shushed. Even the court reporter came over at one point and was like, you guys need to be quiet. And we were like, you're not even sending it. You're not typing. We are being quiet. She's like, it's a courtroom. You can't talk. We pointed to the sign and they basically were like, yeah, forget the sign. It was almost like a hostile area to be in, especially considering I kept seeing my brother.

And Tiffany, you went into full mom mode when they, the bailiff and the court reporter came at us. Full mama bear mode kicked in. You were like, you have treated this girl like shit. She is a victim. I just love you. You're such a badass. It was so triggering. And I'm so sorry you had to deal with that because I know what you.

you've been going through telling your own story and how triggering that is, especially navigating that exchange with the police in your face. I'm thinking that despite everything going on right now, you harness that energy to do that for me. Again, that will mean everything to me until the day I fucking die. The way it played out was Jesse sits down. He has a lawyer. I said to my lawyer, I thought he had no lawyer. He said, well, the judge doesn't want room for an appeal. She is worried that maybe it'll come back. Oh, well, he wasn't properly represented

because he represented himself. He can appeal it. So she said, no, you have to have a lawyer. This man will guide you. I didn't know how that lawyer was going to guide him, though. What if that lawyer said, I don't believe he should be pleading guilty? I said that to the DA. And the DA said, no, no, no, no, we have a video.

He doesn't want to spend extra time on this that he doesn't have to. He will guide him logically. Then Jesse says to the judge, I'd like to plead no contest to all the charges. And she said, do you understand what you're saying? I'm not going to let you plead guilty just to go back to jail, like you said, two weeks ago. That's not a reason you do this. You plead no contest because you know you're guilty or that you are not contesting it.

And so he said, yes, I am pleading no contest because I know I'm guilty and I don't want to waste taxpayers money. And I'm thinking in my head, okay, what's going to happen now? Where's the hitch? The judge at this point then says, I don't really think I want to let you do this. I don't know enough evidence about this case. I don't know why it wouldn't go to trial. And my heart is like, what the fuck?

Read the court documents in front of you. Duh. But I'm sobbing. Like I say all those words now, but at that point, it was a mess. The judge says to me, ma'am, are you his sister? And I said, yes, through my sobs. And she said, what are your thoughts?

And I said, please, please. Please, please let him plead. Please let him plead. So at that point, she begins to consider actually letting him plead. They go through all the charges. They list the fact that this does include this death threat against your sister. They go through everything, and then they say, do you still plead guilty? They make him go through every single charge, every single count separately.

He says, yes, I plead no contest. The judge says, okay, I will let you plead guilty. today. And he says, great, I'm actually going to take it all back if my sister makes a statement. I about damn lost my mind. So he had said that to his lawyer. I see him lean over, tell his lawyer something right after pleading guilty. Then his lawyer comes and tells my lawyer this. I see them talking and I can make out their words enough by the time that the DA gets to me. I say to him, wait, did he just say he would plead guilty, but take it all back if I make a statement? And he says, yeah and I was like

motherfucker I knew he would do something like that so I'm left in this terrible spot of younger Amy being like I knew he would do this I knew he would do something like this I'm thinking oh my god he wins again and I'm thinking in my head do I lie and say I'm not going to make a statement and then afterwards make a statement anyway but I'm not a fucking liar my honesty is my number one trait that I stick to the most so I'm thinking no I cannot do that I'm thinking

why does he win again No. My lawyer, he's like, what do you want to do? And I say, tell the judge. The judge doesn't even know this is happening at this point. This is fucking crazy, right? Like, she must have some feedback. They go up to the bench. The judge says, sir, it's her legal right to make a statement. This is not signed and delivered yet. But you can't say she can't make a statement. She gets to make a statement, whether you want her to or not. Especially if there is a charge for a death threat against her, she is technically a victim on file in this situation. today. So he actually fucking ends up pleading guilty. It was just like, ah, she has the right, and he stepped down. And after lunch, he ended up pleading 100% guilty to all charges. Before I make my statement, Jesse starts swearing at me and they say, sir, sir, sir, get in control. So he's already had an outburst. I start making my statement and he starts talking over the entire thing. Mind you, when I am reading my statement, which was pretty long, Jesse and his lawyer are talking through the entire thing.

I'm thinking, why are they not being shushed? Rather than lose my shit, as I might have done as a child or as a younger person, I just kind of was very stoic. I stopped talking whenever they were talking. And at one point, the judge said to me, ma'am, you can continue. And I said, no, I can't, not as long as he's talking. The whole point is for him to listen.

He can disassociate, but he may not talk over me. She says, it's his lawyer talking. And I said, well, I'm just going to pause. If anybody's mouths are open, I will not be talked over. So I did. I kept pausing. It took me a while to finish. I cried a fuck ton. But I, for the first time, faced him and called him out for molesting me as a child. I called him out for all the terror we faced. I talked about how wonderful my mom was. She was a tough cookie. Life hardened her a little bit. But so many people looked to her for guidance and love and loyalty. She was a rock for a lot. lot of people, and he took that from so many people. I talked about the petition of 5,000 people that signed their names to be part of my journey. And I do want to mention at this moment that as I was sitting there all day long, every point was hard, even in the points when I was listening to somebody else's hearing or there was nothing happening, that was where my anxiety was spiking,

because I had nowhere to focus my energies on. And so what I would do is I was sitting there, I would read the pages of the petition. And from page one, which was the names of my dear friends and my loved ones who have been a part of this journey from the beginning, all the way to the last page that was signed the day before April 17th in that sentencing, it was so impactful. Those names buoyed me. I told Tiffany, I was reading those names. And that's what I was talking about most of the time. And then they were telling me to shush. I was bashing myself with you guys, with all of your love and your support. In my statement, I also read some comments from that petition.

I didn't name anybody who shared them. I mentioned how often I feel like I'm alone, but in that day on April 17th, I wasn't. I was in no way alone. I ended my victim impact statement by saying, what I learned through Jesse's actions is that one person's action, one simple choice can change so many people's trajectories,

hundreds, thousands of people's trajectories. But in the same vein, the DA's decision to do a little extra work for me, to go out of his way, the judge's decision to hear this and let him be sentenced and not take it to trial, that changed my life too. All of these little decisions absolutely freed me of so much. I finished my statement. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done, but it was freeing. After I spoke, the judge said, sir, do you have anything to say?

And he said, yeah, my sister's just a bitch-cunt liar. she's just making all this shit up, which is funny because I have all the receipts. He had just pled guilty to threatening my fucking life. So what am I making up? The judge says, sir, this is not the time or the place to resolve that. There are other ways to do that. And he said, yeah, I know. Because if I tried to, the bailiffs behind me would shoot me.

He basically was saying, oh, the only way I'm going to solve this is murder or attacking my sister. And I was thinking of doing it right now, but those guys would hurt me. But that was that. They walked him out. I'm just going to record this in the car. Amy's not with me anymore. It's 302 p.m. on Monday, April 17th, 2003. And I am so incredibly proud of Amy and what she just did reading her victim impact statement. the amount of strength and courage and tenacity and bravery that she displayed is one of the most profound things I've ever witnessed in my life. And I'm so thankful that his sentence was increased and certain things were put into place.

there was still a lot of fucked up shit that was allowed. That was not okay. Particularly the behavior of the stenographer in the courthouse was absolutely unhinged for no reason. Amy was having anxiety or needed to breathe between her legs or was whispering a question. And the stenographer just could not fucking care less. Even after I'm like, she's having a hard time because she's about to talk about her mom's death. Meanwhile, everybody who worked in there was talking, laughing, making jokes. Amy deserved to be supported and surrounded by every single person in that courtroom,

except for the defense attorney who was appointed before the court session started. One of the sheriffs, he threatened that he was going to kick me out of the room and told me to be calm. And I said, I am calm. And he said, okay. And then he walked away. Meanwhile, they let Jesse live, literally turn to Amy and call her a fucking fat, ugly bitch in open court, then he proceeded to talk, and his defense attorney proceeded to talk while Amy is in the middle of reading her statement. And she stops and says, like, I've waited 16 years to read my statement and he's talking, and I will wait until he is done talking because I deserve that. and then the judge was like

he's not talking his defense attorney is talking they were trying to silence her while she was just processing the trauma and then they let the convicted fucking murder talk while she's sitting there reading her

impact statement about being sexually abused by him and they let that motherfucker sit there and chat with his defense attorney what planet are you people on? Even after they heard Amy's statement, even after they heard everything that he had done to Amy, they were still worried about the wrong shit. Amy does, the unthinkable, goes and puts herself through all this fucking trauma and all this fucking bullshit after 16 years.

After she talks about this in open court, one of the sheriffs who had already yelled at her three times for existing too loud. He comes up to us and he starts talking to me. I didn't even hear what he said. And I said, am I allowed to talk? He said, yes, and looks irritated at me. Like, I'm just being a sarcastic little bitch. And I actually wasn't.

I was being serious because I am scared of cops since the Los Angeles County Sheriff's treating us like we're the fucking murderers are the same people who fucking murdered my brother. He's now standing over me while I'm in a seat. And I'm like, can I talk? And he says, yeah. And then I start talking. And the stenographer start yelling at me. And I'm like, he literally just said I could talk. We're being treated like that for anxiety whispering in the corner, waiting for the fucking murderer to hopefully not attack Amy, as he's threatened to do and has harmed and has tortured her for 30 fucking years now. No, no, no, no, no. They were just worried about the wrong shit. They're worried about us. whispering to the police officer whether or not we need a police escort to get out of the building. That's what he was asking us, by the way.

That's what happens when you have to go face a murderer in court who's made death threats against you like Amy just did. So they asked us if we wanted our sheriff escort. And then they started yelling at us. And I'm like cornered by this Los Angeles County Sheriff. And I start crying. And I'm like, please just let me out of here. I honestly, I was so pissed.

I had to leave the building. I was crying. I was so upset. I was just so mad on Amy's behalf. On behalf of every victim that I talked to who has experienced that kind of treatment by the system, I'm just so pissed about that. How about hold the fucking murderer to the same standard you're holding the victim? While Amy's literally giving her victim impact statement, do you think the judge ever once instructed him to shut his filthy little mouth? No, not one, not anything. This man is sitting there with three Los Angeles County sheriffs surrounding him because he's such a violent and dangerous offender.

And they're worried that the victim might be crying a little too loud for their comfort? I'm so sick of people who are being worried about the wrong shit. I'm so sick of victims being treated like this in our systems. And I'm so sick of seeing the people who actually want to do the right thing, like the DA, being surrounded by assholes. who make their job harder. I can't tell you how many police officers I've met in the last year who want to do the right thing, but that they are afraid to do the right thing. We need to not only improve our systems or the victims or the victims' families for the people who are convicted falsely. We also need to do it for the people who work in law enforcement that are trying to do the right thing

because they care, because they have empathy, because they're trying to actually do their job. I've had those conversations with law enforcement where they say, I love my body cam. I love the law. I believe in your right to free speech. They're also the people that we need to fix these systems for because they're out there trying to do the right thing working twice as hard as the people who are doing the wrong thing. That's not only making it harder to get justice. It's making it harder for the people who we actually want employed in these systems to stay.

I feel changed, even though they were relatively hostile after we finished everything, and all the proceedings were over and he had gone back. They came at us again. What the DA explained to us was that courtroom never sees victims. That was a prison crimes unit, which means that the people that they're dealing with are either inmates or correctional officers, in essence. And those are the only two people, factions of people,

and either one of those are the victims or the perpetrators. They don't ever see victims like me in the courtroom. The DA was saying, the reason why they're acting like this, this makes a huge impact on us. We also need to hear this because there are other sides to a lot of these crimes and we don't hear that side.

So I feel like they're just not used to navigating careful relationships with victims, but they were coming at us like a whole lot of heat. It was really triggering. It was traumatic. To see his face, to have to stand up against him, it was really fucking traumatic. To feel like he had more power in that room

was super fucking traumatic. To hear him say, I'm going to plead guilty, but if she makes a statement I won't, that was traumatic. To have to worry about being shot, every ounce of it was traumatic. But the moment he pled no contest, he took the sentence, that moment I walked out of that courtroom, I told the DA, I felt instantly lighter. And it was all because of his hard work. He did the most he could possibly do. he went after him for the five charges against the correctional officer,

which he received and took 30 years to life sentence for. He got more for an attempted murder of a correctional officer than the actual murder of his mother. Yes, that is a fact. However, they also gave me retroactive justice, which I didn't even think was a possibility. This is something I learned later in my process with Jesse, but Jesse was actually given a youth offender status. When he killed my mom, he was 25 years old and nine months, three months shy of the age of 26. 26 in California is the statute at which you are an adult in terms of murder.

So if you're under 26, you're a youth offender. Well, this entire time, he's been carrying this youth offender status, and that has been what's most enabled him through the parole process. In fact, when I got that transcript, it literally said, sir, we are going to, to highly consider your youth offender status. So this judge and that DA on April 17th actually went backwards and gave my mom more justice. This is the piece that absolutely crushes me,

builds me back up, fills me with hope. They went backwards and removed Jesse's youth offender status. So he is no longer given that benefit when he goes to parole hearings. I think that I want to share this more, not only just to applaud the system working effectively, but also to give people resources and knowledge. If I can tell you, look, you can get more justice now, even though your loved one's murder was 16 years ago, even though your abuse was 20 years ago, this is something that can happen.

They also gave him six years for the death threats against me and my children. So to be heard and validated. After I'd been denied from the prison, after I'd been denied from loved ones who didn't believe me, to just be believed by that DA and supported and told I'm going to go after him, he told me at one point, I don't care what he tries to plea. I will not take a plea deal from this man. He needs to get this full sentence, and that's what he did. Then, the judge went on to deny his next parole hearing. He had postponed it for 2025. That's the phone call on March 23rd that made me lose my mind. She denied the parole in that hearing on April 17th. She basically said, sir, this is enough. You're not rehabilitated enough for parole. You have all these new sentences.

So we are denying it. He's no longer suitable for parole right now. I don't know how long that goes. That could be for two years. That could be for 10 years. I have no clue. I need to do more homework and finding that out. So let me explain what this all means. It sounds like a lot of numbers. It also sounds like why the fuck is he up for parole still, though. It's confusing. and I didn't know what a large impact it would be on my life until I spoke to the DA about it. What he explained to me was, Jesse may never be paroled for my mom's murder,

especially because they removed the youth offender status. But because he's already entered the parole system, that judge denied that parole suitability, once that parole denial is over and he's up for parole again for my mom's murder specifically, he may not get it. I will make a statement. But let's just say I'm exhausted, which I am.

I'm fucking exhausted by this process. It is traumatizing. It is triggering. It is hard. It is all the things. And I want freedom. And that's why Jesse fucked with me at that last moment, because this was the last thing he could do to keep me from ultimate freedom from him.

So if I want to give up the parole fight, and let's just say he gets paroled, he will automatically begin the six-year sentence for the death threat. Once he's done serving that six-year sentence, he will automatically roll into, a 30-year-to-life sentence for the attack on the correctional officer. What happens is, if he's, again, never paroled for my mom's murder, he will never serve the other two sentences.

But if he is paroled and I just want to give up, I can rely on the fact that he has a 30-60 life sentence. In California, there's a three-strikes law. If you have three major strikes on your record, there's virtually no way you're going to get out of prison. My mom's murder was one strike. the correctional officer attack was another strike. So the fact that the DA took my charges seriously and pinned the death threat on him actually made it so he had his third strike.

And he's virtually never getting out. To add on the fact that he has two life sentences is huge. It means he's just never fucking getting out. I should mention the judge also, before I made my victim impact statement, she said to me, would you like a 30-day restraining order? I said my concern with a restraining order is that it doesn't protect me necessarily against people that aren't Jesse, right?

I thought that it keeps me from being harmed by Jesse, not contacted by Jesse. Well, that's not really my concern. My concern is some stranger he hires to kill me. She explained, no, it actually protects you and makes any contact from anyone affiliated with Jesse an automatic crime. It takes away that time from you having to prove it's a crime.

It is a crime instantaneously. So I said, okay, great, give it to me. What she offered was a 30-day restraining order. But by the time I had finished my victim impact statement, she said, okay, I'm giving you a 10-year restraining order. So that woman, as much as she was doing stuff to protect Jessie in the appeals process, she was also doing that to protect the system. But in that moment, with the restraining order, she was protecting me.

And I've heard that it's pretty hard to get a restraining order. I've never actually tried because I just didn't think it would necessarily protect me as much as it would. I'm so grateful for the judge doing that as well. I am navigating the world in a different way now. When I stepped out of that courthouse, I knew my life had changed. I felt instantly lighter. It's a feeling I can't even explain. To know that I would never have to see his face again if I don't want to. When I walked out of that courthouse, I remember the DA said, like, how do you feel? I said, I feel so light. And my first thought after that was, I don't have to lie to my kids anymore.

The one thing I ever lied to them about? The one thing I ever said to them that was a falsehood was, is Jesse ever getting out of prison? And I would say no, because I just would hope and pray that he wouldn't. And I didn't want my kids to live with that fear. They know about him. They know what happened. It came out in a series of ways. To end that day, when the DA said, how does this feel?

I said, I can tell my kids with utmost confidence and honesty that Jesse is never getting out. And that felt so freeing. So when people say, how does it feel? Like literally, light, I feel light. I get to go navigate the world, not having to say, yeah, but my brother might get out of a prison and try to kill me. There is still a fear of him trying to hire someone from within prison, but that wasn't my biggest fear.

My biggest fear was him getting out. And I never have to fear that again. I'm in love with the fact that. that mom got more justice that day. At this point, she's gone. And there's nothing that can bring her back. And there's nothing that can make it better. But I didn't know there was retroactive justice for her.

I didn't know we could get him as an adult offender. No one educated me on that. And the DA just did it. And my whole world changed. The way I look at the country I live in changed. The way I look at the justice system that I've gotten traumatized for 16 years by, It's changed. I have faith.

I have hope. The month after my podcast came out, and within three weeks of that filing of my police report against Jesse for the death threat, he received his sentence. He was convicted. I made a phone call to the detective that was assigned to the case on the death threat

through the sheriff's station that I was filing. I said, hey, dude, I know I just filed this like three and a half weeks ago or something. something, but he's already been sentenced and he was like, wait, what? And I was like, yeah, I know, swiftest serving of justice ever, which just infuses me with so much hope and so much knowledge. I want to put into perspective that this is the first peace and freedom I have felt in so long. It's been 16 years since my mom's murder, but there was abuse occurring for at least 10 years before that. So I'm talking about 26 years of abuse at the hands of this man that continued

while he was in jail, that continued while he was in prison, and now this prison crimes unit courtroom and the professionals that work from it gave me the opportunity to be free, to be lighter, to move on in a way that I've never been able to before, because I kept being re-interjected into the system. I kept having to make statements to make sure that he would stay in prison. I kept trying to have to file charges. This is the first time in over 25 years that I feel peace. It's kind of magical. It's just a testament to how triggering and traumatizing the systems in place can be that my mom was still murdered. Her murderer still exists. He's still in prison. He still abuses me. but I don't have to deal with him anymore.

And the fact that that is a sentiment and that is what lessens so much trauma and darkness on my heart is just a true sign of how triggering and difficult to navigate our systems are. I'm really thankful it's over. I'm really thankful I have freedom. And I'm really thankful for you, Tiffany, for being there as a friend, for being there as virtually a sister. And I think our listeners,

because honestly, every little bit of support, the signatures on that petition, the comments from my stories, the messages of hope and love, the I'm listening, I'm here with you, I get it, I don't get it, but I'm here with you, all of them mean so fucking much to me. They have buoyed me through some of the darkest times in my life,

and I'm just so fucking excited. I feel like the darkest times are all behind me. Thank you, BetterHelp, for sponsoring today's episode. As a reminder, don't forget to use WCN for 10% off your first month of Better Help services. Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. Next week on What Came Next. It broke something in me for a period of time. It was a very complex, multi-layered journey that I experienced.

There were times where I had a lot of support and there were times where there was no support. Those are the moments where I'm like, something has to. to change in this process. What Came Next is a Broken Cycle Media production, co-produced by Amy B. Chessler and Tiffany Reese. If you'd like to help support What Came Next, you can leave us a positive review, support our sponsors, or follow Broken Cycle Media on Instagram at Broken Cycle Media.

Check out the episode notes for sources, resources, and to follow our guests. Thank you again for listening.