Something You Should Know - Behind the Scenes of White House Diplomacy & How to Take Advantage of Lucky Moments

Episode Date: June 22, 2020

Do dolphins really have their own language? Why is it warmer in the summer? Does lightning ever strike the same place twice? This episode begins with a short and fun science quiz. Let’s see how well you score. https://thebestschools.org/magazine/25-popular-science-myths-debunked/ We all use diplomacy when we deal with people. There are certain rules we all follow to make interactions pleasant and productive – that’s diplomacy. Joining me to discuss how diplomacy works and to share some great stories of diplomacy from the White House is Capricia Penavic Marshall who was social secretary to Bill and Hilary Clinton and the Chief of Protocol for President Obama. Capricia is also author of the book Protocol: The Power of Diplomacy and How to Make It Work for You (https://amzn.to/2AJyl2E) Want to be a better cook? If so, listen as I explain some great ideas to help you become a master of the kitchen from what kind of chicken to buy, where to keep your lemons to why you need a new ice tray for the freezer. http://www.epicurious.com/expert-advice/best-cooking-advice-ever-article  Some people just seem to be lucky. But is it just chance or is it that those people just know how to capitalize on lucky moments that come along in everyone’s life? Here to discuss that is Christian Busch, PhD, Director of the Global Economy Program at New York University’s Center for Global Affairs and author of the book, The Serendipity Mindset: The Art and Science of Creating Good Luck (https://amzn.to/30VClYu) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, a science quiz. Do dolphins really have a language? Does lightning ever strike twice? Listen and find out.

Then, the chief of protocol for President Obama explains the importance of diplomacy for everyone and how it keeps presidents out of trouble. Men cross their legs and often show the bottom of their shoe. But that's creating great offense in many, many countries. President Obama had very, very long legs. And I would have to say, Mr. President, before you go out there, what are we going to do? And he would say, both feet on the floor. I'm like, yes. Then, simple ways to work better in the kitchen.

And luck. Serendipity. Serendipity to me is really that kind of unexpected good luck that results from these kind of unplanned moments. So it's not enough to just see something unexpected, but we have to connect the dots. We have to do something with it to really then turn out into a kind of lucky coincidence. All this today on Something You Should Know. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives.

So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars.

Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life.

Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hello, welcome to Something You Should Know. I hope I sound normal to you. I don't sound normal to me because I've got something going on with my ear, which the doctor says will clear up in a couple of days, but I can't hear very well out of my left ear. So I don't sound normal to me in my own head, but hopefully I sound okay to you. We start today with a science quiz. See if you believe these things to be true. Lightning never strikes twice in the same place.

Well, actually it does. In fact, in one storm, the Empire State Building was struck three different times. There is no gravity on the International Space Station. That is also wrong. There is only a little less gravity there than here on Earth. Astronauts experience weightlessness because they are in a constant state of freefall. Dolphins have their own language. Everybody knows that, except it's not true.

Scientists have studied this and have never found a language. Toilets drain counterclockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere. That's not right either. The Coriolis effect makes cyclones spin different ways above and below the equator, but that has no effect on something as small as a toilet. The Earth is warmer in the summer because it's closer to the sun. Well, actually, the Earth is closer to the sun in January.

The seasons are determined by the Earth's tilt towards the sun. And that is something you should know. You're about to hear some pretty cool behind-the-scenes stories from the White House in this next segment. But the actual point of this segment, and there's always a point to these segments, is to talk about the importance of diplomacy and protocol, which some might say we're seeing quite a lack of recently.

When you hear the words diplomacy or protocol, which some might say we're seeing quite a lack of recently. When you hear the words diplomacy or protocol, you likely think of high government officials and how they behave, generally in very polite and civil ways and according to custom. But we all use diplomacy and protocols in our lives. It's often what allows us to get through life with other people. We generally and usually know what to expect from them and they from us so that we can all carry on. Interestingly, though, diplomacy and protocol is a lot more than that,

as you're about to hear from Capricia Pennevik Marshall. She was social secretary to Bill and Hillary Clinton for eight years, and more recently, chief of protocol under the Obama administration. She is now president of Global Engagement Strategies, which advises international public and private clients on issues relating to diplomacy. And she's author of the book Protocol, The Power of Diplomacy and How to Make it Work for You. Hi, Capricia.

Welcome. Hi, Mike. I'm so pleased to join you. So based on your background, it would seem there are few other people in the world that know more about this topic than you do. So what is diplomacy and protocol from your point of view? And why do you think it's important? Then obviously, you've dedicated your career to it. Oh, well, thank you for that question. Diplomacy and protocol are the tenets that I lived by

while I served as chief of protocol for President Obama and Secretary Clinton. You know, I consider protocol one of those superpowers. The details really matter. There are hidden micro moves that give you a real major impact. Protocol, we would present it as a roadmap for your professional, social, and cultural engagements, making sure that you avoid those potholes. Okay. Well, I get that it matters a lot when you're world leaders, but how does it play out in everyday life? Why is it even important? My motto has always been, why wing it? Be prepared, be professional when you show up either in a personal interview or now perhaps one that is virtual. For instance, when you give a

toast, make sure that you know to stand, raise your glass, look at the person in the eye, don't use water. Know these days that we're probably not going to be clinking due to our social distancing, but that you should offer that that movement. Make sure that you thank the host. I'm very appreciative of people who do those little things that you just talked about. But I think there's a sense that it's lost on a lot of people that we live in a more informal world and that a lot of this stuff really isn't important. Oh, Mike, it is ever so important. And let me tell you that today in particular, it is so very important. What protocol does is it creates clarity. It creates direction. And today, there is a lot of confusion and a lot of noise out there. And so people are looking for direction. They want those rules.

They want to know, how am I supposed to interact in this new environment? It almost seems as if what you're calling protocol or diplomacy is in large part just etiquette, just common sense, just, you know, do the right thing. Well, it is in large measure, but protocol is coupled with, it is its fine cousin is etiquette. But beyond that, protocol has all of the preparation tools as well wrapped into it. I always carried with me my Mary Poppins bag whenever I traveled with President Obama on foreign travels. And it had everything in there for all of those what ifs. But when you plan, you are influencing. You are also optimistic.

It helps when things don't go quite the way that you want them to. You have that framework. Let me tell you, when I was about to take on my position as chief of protocol, we had what was called murder boards. And there was a group of individuals who would surround me in a room and pepper me with questions, one after the other, after the other, after the other, so that I was prepared for my Senate confirmation hearing. And I didn't do just one, I did four. And I was fully prepared for any question that was going to come my way. So preparation is really key in protocol as well. In addition, in particularly today, knowing your cultural IQ, who am I? What am I conveying to you? And what should I know about you is so very, very important. Listen, listen well, take some pauses in the conversation because people love to fill the pauses and they give you information about themselves. They fill that empty space.

I launched a wonderful program when I was in protocol called the Diplomatic Partnerships Division. And it was intended for us as Americans in government service to get to know the diplomatic corps from all over the world better. We wanted to know the best of the best of the people that were sent from every nation here to represent their country. And so we wanted them to know who we were, who we are as Americans. And we took them all over the country on a program called Experience America

from Chicago to New Orleans to Atlanta. Oh, gosh. And my favorite to Alaska. My favorite part of the trip was when we were on a train ride. We had just left Glacier Bay. And the Chilean ambassador grabbed this guitar and he started playing with backup from the Croatian ambassador, Peruvian ambassador, Japanese ambassador. I can't get no satisfaction. Nothing brings people together like the Rolling Stones. Since you were like right in the thick of it, and I didn't know the chief of protocol required Senate confirmation. That must have been a harrowing experience.

Oh, yes, it is. And the reason why you are Senate confirmed is that you literally stand in the place of the president when greeting chiefs of state and heads of government, whether they are kings and queens or presidents and prime ministers. was standing at Andrews Air Force Base when a leader arrived in a plane and they would begin to descend their staircase. And I stood there and I would say, extend my hand and say, on behalf of the United States, welcome, welcome to our nation. It was a wonderful moment to shake their hands. I still get a little bit of a shiver when I say it now. And so you go through Senate confirmation so you can receive the rank of ambassador because a leader will want to greet someone who is of a higher rank. So there must have been some really good, juicy stories of things that went awry or things that you can share that,

uh, cause we have to have some of that. Oh yes. Well, you know, it is also the beauty of protocol is that when you have a really good plan, you are prepared for what I call oopsie doodles. Those things that just don't go quite right. Uh, there's one that if you Google it, you see it right away, Capricia Marshall fall during the state visit of President Calderon and Mrs. Zavala. I am half Mexican and half Croatian. And so my entire Mexican family was watching because this is the president of

Mexico who was arriving for the state dinner. I walked out of the North Portico door leading President and Mrs. Obama, and I was about to take my position in my long pink gown and regrettably very high, very thin heeled shoes, which got caught in a divot in the marble on the North Portico. And down I went. Now, I will tell you, Mike, I have a pretty strong core. I do a little P90X. And so I jumped as I knew I was going to fall forward. I sort of jumped to the first step, went down and came back up.

All the while, Mrs. Obama yelling out to the 100 person International Press Corps, don't take that picture. And President Obama stepping in to try to help me. It was a moment that will live with me forever. And at that moment, I said to myself, okay, now what do I do? And I thought, carry on with the job at hand, just keep going forward. So I held on to my shoes, walked down the staircase, greeted President Calderon and made the introductions. And as soon as everyone was out of sight, collapsed in a chair saying, I can't believe that just happened. A moment that will live with me forever. Yeah, thanks to the internet, it will outlive you. We're talking about diplomacy and protocol, and I'm speaking with Capricia Pennevik Marshall. She was social secretary for the

Clintons for eight years, chief of protocol under President Obama and author of the book Protocol, the Power of Diplomacy and How to Make It Work for You. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride.

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Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill

about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So, Capricia, when dignitaries and foreign leaders come to the White House,

do you, as the chief of protocol, do you get their, like a rock star has a writer to their contract when they do a concert of the, you know, the kind of liquor they want and the kind of pillow they want? Do they do that? Oh, you bet they do. Absolutely. And we do the same. We send our list as well. And there are many, many discussions that take place from the moment the visit is put on the scheduling books. We begin to have our exchange of notes, likes, dislikes. We begin to research so much about that leader because you want that visit to be very, very respectful. They assist you in helping them understand their culture. So if there is a particular color or flower or food

that would cause offense, they let you know well in advance, do they have allergies and making sure that we are not serving them something that they might have a reaction to, that would be bad. So we share all of those details well in advance to avoid any kind of mishap during the visit. And so what's the strangest request you ever got? The strangest request? Well, it wasn't one that I actually received, but one that one of my predecessors did receive was whether or not they could bring live monkeys into the country because it's a delicacy in their country. And the monkeys need to be live because of the way that they serve it. And I will just tell you that that request was denied, that they would have to wait to return back to their country for the live monkey delicacy. Sometimes at Blair House, which is the president's guest house, and the chief of protocol would oversee the president's guest house. sleeping arrangements. When leaders would stay there, oftentimes their guards would sleep outside

their doorways, even though we had plenty of beds for them to sleep in. We would find them there. There's, golly, there's so many other interesting, fun stories that come to mind that I could go on and on. But I know, Mike, you don't want me to do that. Oh, but I do. Well, I'd love to hear just one or two more just to get a little flavor of what goes on. Well, this isn't really something that had gone wrong or a special interesting request, but another fun story that really comes to mind is the exchange

of gifts. Gifts are a wonderful tradition in protocol. You know, you should really drive home the point of the gift. That's what I used as our focus when we decided which gifts to suggest to President and Mrs. Obama that they might want to bring with them on a foreign visit or to give when a leader came to our country. You know, it's one of the greatest soft power tools that we have. But creating the gifts and then seeing what we were going to receive was always a great deal of fun. And one of my fondest gift stories was when President Obama was invited by Her Majesty the Queen for a state visit. And just entering the doors of Buckingham Palace is extraordinary. And seeing Her Majesty move us all along. She is really her own chief of protocol.

She keeps time. She looks at her watch. She holds onto that bag. I learned, I tried to take it from her once, not deliberately, but in a way to just offer a service. And I was told, do not touch the bag. And I asked why what's in the bag. We don't know what's in the bag, but we don't touch the bag. Okay. I'll stay away from the bag. But we had this wonderful moment of the gift exchange. And a few years earlier, there was a gift that was given that had created a lot of attention thinking through what will the Americans bring for Her Majesty that would not divert attention away from the visit, but would actually create a stronger bond in this special relationship. And so at the time when we're supposed to present the gifts, and Her Majesty likes this,

leader to leader, this is a very big part of the visit. She walked through the door with President Obama, approached the table, and she looked down at the red portfolio that we had created of memorabilia from her father's last visit to the United States. We knew, we learned through lots of research that she revered her father, just adored him. And we found original menus and note cards and invitations. And so we created this wonderful, beautiful portfolio of mementos from his last visit. And as she looked page to page, I could say that I think I saw a little glisten in her eye

as she was looking at these mementos. And I looked up at the president and he was so happy. He's like, okay, job well done. And then we moved on to the gift for Prince Philip. And we learned that he loved to race carriage ponies. And so we went to two artisans, one in Colorado and one in Ohio, to create bits and shanks for his carriage ponies. And on the ends of those, we soldered the president's seal. Well, he came over and he picked it up and he looked and he said, I'm not sure. These might be a little heavy for my pony's jaws.

Well, Her Majesty said, well, I just don't think that's the case. And so she called over this really tall man who's the head of the horses, I think, because he picked them up. And he looked and goes, oh, no, this is fine workmanship, fine workmanship indeed. And Her Majesty looked at Prince Philip and said, I told you, Philip. And so saving me any embarrassment and certainly making the gift one that was really, really special. So gifts matter. They really matter as a part of our exchange, as a part of protocol, and a part of building the relationship between two leaders. These rules of protocol that you have when you're dealing with world leaders and very high-level government people, I understand that all these details are really important to you because this is your job.

But do those people care if a fork is out of place or somebody's tie is crooked or their shoe's untied or you didn't hold the door for this person? Do people, do they really care? Oh, yes, they care. They care greatly. And in my line of work, I had to make sure that the flag was hung appropriately, that I did six eyes on everything, confirming that spelling of names was absolutely appropriate, that the table was appropriately set, because it also just shows you care. And why wing it? Why wing it in government, your professional life, or at home?

Know the rules or know these tools, these very special tools that you can use to your great advantage. Oftentimes, using the tools pivots the power to your advantage, whether you're in government or business negotiation or even, you know, with as you try to tell your child, I have a young son when they're interviewing with a future employer. You know, using these tools can be ever so helpful. It just makes sure that all is defined the appropriate way it leaves nothing up for chance you know it's interesting that i i've taken from what you've said is that you know in government the rules are pretty much set in stone at that at the level you worked in but if you have want to

set your own protocol around your own house or your own workplace or whatever you can kind of make it up as you go along it's just that you have to communicate it. You have to tell people, this is how we're going to do it at my house. And, you know, in a nice way. But so you take your shoes off when you get here or you wash your hands or whatever. You can do whatever you want, but you have to tell people. That's exactly right. Mike, you really hit the nail on the head.

It is setting expectations, communicating in advance, all of the preparations, everything that you put in place. You want to make sure that someone knows that you went to a lot of trouble also to make sure that this visit, this negotiation, maybe client exchange, whatever it might be that you went to a great deal of trouble to set these parameters for them and so that they could feel welcome in your home, that they could what to expect if they step into your office, whatever that might be. Clarity of expectations is really important and you know i also say that language is so so important be specific in what you in the language that you are using whether it's on an invitation or verbally confirm understanding in particularly when you're talking to someone from another

country we often use jargon that is confusing, and someone may walk away thinking that they know what you intended, but they don't quite know what you intended. So confirm understanding and then repeat it again. I've always wondered, what happens at high government levels when protocols collide?

Well, the monkey story was a good example of, you know, we just, we don't typically eat monkey brains here. But, you know, when there's just maybe something less dramatic, you know, I don't know what it would be. Some country, maybe they belch after dinner, and at the White House, we kind of frown on that. So what happens when those kind of protocols collide? Well, it is interesting. When you travel, you have to really make sure that you check out how some gestures might be perceived in other countries. Sometimes too much of a smile can indicate that you are a bit bewildered or someone who isn't all that smart. The V sign here, we use the V sign as victory. Regrettably, President Bush had used it with the palm facing out on one of his visits. And it's as bad as one of the bad signals we use with one of our middle fingers

here, sitting on a chair. And men cross their legs and often show the bottom of their shoe. They don't realize it. But that's creating great offense in many, many countries. I would constantly, President Obama had very, very long legs. And so crossing his legs was something that just came natural to him. And I would have to say, Mr. President, before you go out there, what are we going to do? And he would say, both feet on the floor. I'm like, yes, absolutely. watch myself with because I like to wave my hands around a little bit, people are taken aback by that. It makes them uncomfortable. So the protocol defaults're at home, right? That's absolutely right, Mike. When you are at home, it is the rules that govern are those of the United States, and you have someone like you running interference for all these details to make sure every little thing is right. That when they leave office, it must be really hard not to have you around.

Well, I'm quite lucky in that I have stayed quite close to both President Clinton and President Obama, the two presidents that I have given advice and guidance to over the years. And so on occasion, even after I left office, I get a ring that says, we're about to do XYZ. What do you think, Capricia? What should we be doing here? And I'm incredibly flattered with the call and go right back into service all over again. Can you give me, give all of us one more little kind of peek behind the curtain of what goes on at the White House that most people never see that that would really be kind of fascinating to know? Day of inauguration when President-elect George Bush arrived to the White House to be greeted by President and Mrs. Clinton. There is a tradition in our country where the current sitting president invites the President-elect to the White House, to the Blue Room, to have a coffee.

It's not a long visit. It's a short visit, but is an extraordinary exchange of philosophy and the way that our country is run. I consider myself incredibly, incredibly privileged to have witnessed this up close and personal. And I was one of two staff people still left at the White House at this time. So when President-elect and Mrs. Bush arrived to the White House and were greeted, and this was a tough election, you got to remember. President Clinton had fought hard for Vice President Gore to become president, and it didn't turn out in his favor. And so there were some raw emotions still that were at play

when President-elect Bush showed up at the White House that day. And you could feel it. You could really feel it in the air. President Clinton has a very special manner about him. He makes anyone feel comfortable and welcomed. He just sort of gives you always that bare hug of a welcome. And so after the coffee, it is my duty. It was my duty to escort everyone to the motorcade that would then drive them up to Capitol Hill where the actual oath of office would take place. And it was now the was now President Clinton and President-elect Bush's time to get into the motorcade. And President Clinton turned to President-elect Bush, took him by the shoulders,

adjusted his jacket, tapped him on the back, and he said, come on, let's go do this. And President-elect Bush looked up at him with a look in his eyes and not saying anything, but you saw that he said, don't worry, I've got this. And within that moment, there was a change in power without a sword being raised, without a yell being shouted. It was one of the most extraordinary moments I'd ever witnessed. Wow, that's real history. And you were right there. And probably a good story like that is a good place to stop. So we will stop here. Capricia Pennevik Marshall has been my guest. She's the former social secretary to Bill and Hillary Clinton. She was the chief of protocol

for the Obama administration, and she is currently president of Global Engagement Strategies, which advises international public and private clients on issues related to diplomacy. Her book is called Protocol, The Power of Diplomacy and How to Make it Work for You. You'll find a link to her book in the show notes. Thank you, Capricia. Thank you so much. I really appreciated this, Mike. This is great. hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events.

Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all

things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover we are famous for rabbit holes disney themed games and fun facts you didn't know you needed but you definitely need in your life so if you're looking for a healthy dose of disney magic check out disney countdown wherever you get your podcasts whether you realize it or not, luck plays a big role in so much of your life. Think about it. One chance meeting, one little decision, one piece of information, the fact that you turned left instead of turned right, all of these things can change your life forever, no matter how well you've got your life all planned out.

And so when you understand that this does happen and understand how it happens, you can actually create more good luck for yourself and less bad luck. Christian Bush has studied this. Christian is the director of the Global Economy Program at New York University's Center for Global Affairs, and he is author of the book, The Serendipity Mindset, The Art and Science of Creating Good Luck. Hey, Christian, thanks for coming on. Thank you so much for having me.

So let's first define what you mean by luck, because there's the kind of luck like, oh, I won the lottery kind of luck, which is really just random chance. Then there's the luck I think you're talking about, and there may be other kinds of luck, which is really just random chance. Then there's the luck I think you're talking about, and there may be other kinds of luck. So let's focus in on what is luck for the purpose of this conversation. That's a great question, because that's actually what I'm most fascinated by in terms of that. If we look at this kind of blind luck that we usually associate luck with, so, you know, being born into a loving family or these kind of things, it's essentially something that we didn't work for. But the luck that I'm

really excited about is that luck, the smart luck that we really do something about. So serendipity to me is really that kind of unexpected good luck that results from these kind of unplanned moments. But then we make some kind of proactive decision that leads us to some kind of positive outcome. So it's like, it's not enough to just, you know, in the case of interesting inventions or so, it's not enough to just see something unexpected, but we have to connect the dots. We have to do something with it to really then turn out into a kind of lucky coincidence. And so what are some of those things that show up in life? I think everybody can imagine, you know, the chance encounter with somebody that changes your life kind of thing. But what are some of the other things in life that can lead to the kind of luck you're talking about? Yeah, I mean, we can see it in every area.

So, for example, when you think about companies, there's this one Chinese company and they, you know, they produce washing machines and refrigerators and they got calls one day and farmers told them, hey, we're trying to wash our potatoes in the washing machine and it doesn't seem to work. And so what would we usually do? We would say, well, you know, don't wash your potatoes in the washing machine. It's unexpected that you're doing this, but you know what? Like, just don't do it. So we would either ignore it or we would say, okay, don't do it. They did the opposite. They said, okay, well, this is interesting that they do this.

And we know that there are a lot of farmers out there. So why don't we build in a dirt filter and essentially make it a potato washing machine? And so that's how the potato washing machine emerged. It was not planned, but it was something where someone saw kind of serendipity trigger, something unexpected, but then they connected the dots to like a much larger market out there. And so we know that around, you know, 50-ish percent of inventions happen that way. We know that, you know, you mentioned earlier, a lot of times we might have met our life partner that way. We might have met our co-founder that way, where it's not only about running into someone and someone telling us about something, but it's about doing something with it and connecting the dots to something else that we've been working on.

And so it's really that kind of smart luck that is really about proactive decisions and proactively acting on it, rather than just kind of having it happen to us. So how do you zero in on the ones that have potential, or do you just have to be open to everything? So the potato washing machine turned out to be a good idea, but there's a lot of ideas that probably come, or problems that get expressed, like we're having trouble washing our fill-in-the-blank there, that isn't going to turn into anything and so how do you separate or how do you filter out the good ones from the bad

ones that's a great question because that's also something i've seen that particularly with entrepreneurs that sometimes they get distracted by all the opportunity that could be out there and so one of the things that has come out of our research, what some of the most successful people, both social entrepreneurs, entrepreneurs, CEOs, and others tend to do is they tend to have a certain sense of direction. So they might have an idea of, okay, in the next couple of months, I want to approximately do X, Y, Z. And then these things have to fit into this,

but also by having an appreciation for the unexpected, it allows them to connect the dots. So if you look at someone like Paul Polman, for example, at Unilever, like he would always have this kind of bigger principle or bigger notion that he wanted to somehow help people help themselves and develop something on their own. So now if I come to him and tell him about something, he would be like, okay, this is unexpected, but it relates to my purpose or it doesn't. So one way is really kind of that like sense of direction or a basic principle or curiosity. But also then another one that some companies, for example, have been doing is to set up things like brain trusts or other ways where essentially you come up with an idea or come up with something that might make sense. And then people just informally say, okay, this seems to make sense. It doesn't seem to make sense.

And I think in our own relationships, a lot of times what we see is that someone who seems to be having a lot of these kind of lucky coincidences might have a partner who reflects on with them on it and says, okay, Hey, this is, this is valuable to follow up on. And this isn't, and really kind of this idea of really linking it to a kind of broader journey rather than being distracted by it. Those people who have that ability, it seems, and I think everybody knows somebody that just things just seem to go their way. Opportunity just seems to fall into their lap.

Are these typically the kind of people you're talking about and we just don't see the serendipity going on? Or are these two different kinds of people? That's most probably the kind of person. If that's the kind of person where exactly like people would say, oh, that person is a bit luckier than others, even though they seem to be in a very similar context or a very similar situation. It's those kind of people where a lot of times, and it's interesting because that is actually one of the things that I've been most excited about trying to understand what are the patterns behind those kind of people? What do we see emerging? So for example, if you take someone like Olly Barrett in London, who is a wonderful person who's in the education sector and he's an entrepreneur.

And one thing that he does is just a very small thing that he does differently than other people. But when he goes to an event and, you know, this dreaded question of what do you do, right, where usually we would just say, oh, I'm working on X, Y, Z, he essentially sets hooks. So he would not only be like, OK, I'm an education entrepreneur, but he would be like, oh, hey, I'm currently working in education, but I've recently started exploring philosophy. And what I'm really excited is connecting people and ideas. And so what he does here is he gives you three potential entry points where you could be like, oh, my God, such a coincidence. I also wanted to look a bit more into how we can integrate philosophy into X, Y, Z or how we can connect people differently, whatever it is. It might then seem like a positive coincidence that that he met that person there but what he did was

he met the same person you and i might have met but he just he just connected the dots differently with that person yeah it sounds like what he does is he kind of opens the door up gives people an opportunity to connect and then pretty much leaves it to them to do so or not. But we've been talking a lot about, you know, businessy kind of things. Can we talk a little more about how serendipity and the kind of luck that you're talking about, how it works on a more personal individual level? That's a great question, because that's also something. So if we take the example of how I met my previous partner, in terms of, you know, it's that kind of situation where I am sitting in

a coffee shop, and I am on my laptop, she's on her laptop, and we somehow sense, okay, there could be some kind of thing. And, you know, unexpectedly, the coffee kind of falls down, we get into a conversation. And what might have a lot of what might happen a lot of times now, of course, is that we leave it at this, even though we sense kind of some kind of direction, some kind of connection. And in our case, fortunately, you know, we got to talk about that coffee, then we realized, oh, my God, there's a couple of overlaps we have in terms of the interests we've been exploring. And then essentially, we followed up on this and became partners. And so it's really that kind of, in a way, how do we have that unexpected thing like a coffee falling down? And how do we then connect the dots to something in terms of the common overlaps?

But it's really the day to day where a lot of things come to us very serendipitously, but only if we're if we're seeing them. And I think there's a lot of studies, for example, on luck in general that illustrate that. So, for example, there's one study where they took one person who self-identifies as very lucky and one person who self-identifies as very unlucky. And essentially, they told them, okay, walk down the street, go into the coffee shop, sit next to the counter, grab your coffee, and that's it. What they didn't tell them is that there would be hidden cameras across the street, that there would be a five-pound note in front of the coffee shop, and that at that table there would be this super successful businessman

who can make big ideas happen. And so the lucky person walks down the street, sees the five-pound note, picks it up, goes inside the shop, orders the coffee, has a nice conversation with the barista, sits next to the businessman because that's the table that's there, has a nice conversation. That's it. Now, the unlucky person goes down the street, steps over the five pound note, goes inside, orders the coffee, sits next to the businessman, ignores the businessman, and that's it. Now, at the end of the day, they ask both people, so how was your day?

And, you know, the lucky person says, well, it was amazing. You know, I had two wonderful conversations, I found money in the streets. And we don't know if an opportunity came out of it. But it wouldn't be unexpected, right? If the businessman could have helped him with something. Now, the unlucky person only says, well, nothing really happened. And you know, that that is kind of like when it comes to luck itself. And with serendipity, where we have this additional element of really kind of working on it and like maybe if the businessman would have said something like oh i've been working on xyz and we would have connected this to something we've been working on um that that kind of thing would happen but it's really this kind of idea that in a way we we need to see the unexpected and then in and then in a way do something with it it would almost seem though that

like if you look at this too closely like the magic goes away you know like the serendipity happens because it's just kind of circumstance happenstance if you if you dissect it maybe it doesn't work it's it's fascinating because it's it that is what i find the beauty in it that in a way it's about finding meaning in accidents finding meaning in the unexpected and in a way by definition we can't know what the outcome is so by definition we can't really take the magic away because even though i have a lot of serendipity like every day i have serendipity happen because, you know, I talk with a lot of people. I kind of engage people in different ways and so on. But I never know what the potential outcome could be.

So the magic is always there. But actually by in a way training the mind in a certain way and kind of really developing that muzzle for the unexpected, I kind of, as someone, you know, I come from Germany and without wanting to put any stereotypes on it, I'm someone who loves planning in my heart, right? And so to me, ambiguity and uncertainty usually would be something that would be an anxiety enhancing. It would be something where it would be like, oh my God, this is something that I try to avoid. But since I've been in this kind of more serendipity mindset, in a way, uncertainty and ambiguity

becomes something more joyful that I actually can look forward to because I know that I can turn it into something positive. And so it's really that kind of idea of, in a way, keeping the magic, but also at the same time, in a way, turning what could be anxiety into a bit more of an enthusiasm for life. And being honest with you, this is really something that in my work. So I've been doing a lot of work, especially in very low income contexts, especially in Kenya and South Africa and other contexts, particular contexts within those countries. And one thing that I've seen is that when people kind of take on like that kind of mindset, it does something, it just does something in terms of how we take control,

we take more control of life rather than feeling, oh, my God, I feel very powerless. And I think, especially at moments like at the moment, it just gives us a bit of power back, because I think a lot of us are in this kind of illusion of control that we assume, yeah, I can plan my life out, and I can do x, y, z. But actually, then something like COVID happens and, you know, everything is kind of completely different. And so I've just seen in my work that this is something that gives a lot of meaning and purpose to people because it gets rid of the illusion of control and really says, let's try to control what we can, which is the process of it, not the outcome, but the process. So it seems from what you're saying is that a lot of this is really just being open to

it, leaving the door open, keeping your eye out for opportunities because and being aware of the fact that serendipity does happen. It happens all the time. And so if you're open to it, it will happen rather than take the philosophy of I'm going to plan my life out and just live my plan. It's interesting because I had a conversation just yesterday with a wonderful person who I would consider a kind of a real serendipity. And we talked about this idea that we're both very focused people and we're both very focused on getting things done. But we also kind of have this idea that we are we are open to the unexpected so we're not we're not practically seeking it out

and we're not practically saying oh this has to happen all the time but we are ready for when it happens and so it's really something you know if you if you would see it as a kind of 80 20 type thing i think that probably would be what it is in terms of that, you know, 80% of our lives, we live in terms of, okay, we're planning these things out, we have our kind of goals and what we want to achieve this month and everything else. But then also, we know that within that degree of keeping our eyes open, that is probably where most things will shift. That is where a brewery from one day to the other becomes a hand sanitizer organization, or where a senior emergency service becomes a COVID service. And so it's kind of those moments that just change everything. So if I want to tap into this, how do you start? What do you do?

The core that I found helpful, apart from like the concrete kind of things, such as the way we ask questions, how we frame our minds, and how we see opportunity in the crisis, and so on, is really also that kind of general mindset of saying that we need to expect the unexpected and start seeing it. And I think that kind of mindset shift in a way is really at the core of a lot of it. But then also this kind of really placing bets and really saying, okay, I have this plan mapped out, but also maybe I spend 5% of my time speaking with people in other areas just to figure out what could be there, because some people might see something that I didn't. Well, I have said before that when I look back on my life, I can point to certain events, certain people that I met, certain encounters that I had that

really altered the course of my life and made life better. And I don't know that I was doing it very deliberately. So imagine if you did. Imagine if you had an eye out for those kind of encounters, how great your life could be. Christian Bush has been my guest. He's the director of the Global Economy Program at New York University's Center for Global Affairs, and he's author of the book The Serendipity Mindset,

The Art and Science of Creating Good Luck. There's a link to his book in the show notes. Thank you, Christian. Thank you so much. I love all things about the kitchen. I love cooking. I love eating. I love everything about the whole kitchen experience.

So I always enjoy when I come across things that tell you how to make life in the kitchen better. And here are some things from the experts at Epicurious.com that will make you a better, more efficient chef. First of all, buy the Chicken Thigh Family Pack. The chicken thighs are juicier, cheaper, and more flavorful than chicken breasts, which everybody's pretty much sick of anyway. Save the fat. Chicken fat is amazing stuff,

whether you're frying onions in it, sautéing greens in it, or spreading it on toast. So after eating your roast chicken dinner, drain the now-cooled liquid fat into a plastic container and store it in the freezer. Season some of your vegetables with sugar. Carrots, squash, tomatoes, all these vegetables have a natural sweetness that's enhanced by just a tiny bit of sugar. Carrots, squash, tomatoes, all these vegetables have a natural sweetness that's enhanced by just a tiny bit of sugar. Use a garbage bowl. You get a large bowl exclusively for things like eggshells, onion skins, and other trash, and it will keep your workspace much neater. Put a damp paper towel or kitchen towel under your cutting board. That way your board doesn't slip around as you chop. Always keep lemons in the fridge.

They'll keep longer that way, so you'll always be able to add fresh lemon juice to everything from dressings to cocktails. Plus you can use the squeezed rinds to clean and deodorize your wooden cutting boards. Buy a better ice cube tray. The cubes out of your ice dispenser are watering down your cocktails. Cubes made in silicone ice trays are denser and keep your drink of choice cold for hours. And toss your spices, especially the ground cumin. Ground spices die quickly, so give them a whiff, because if they don't smell like much, they're not going to taste like much either.

And that is something you should know. Lately, there have been a lot of very positive, thoughtful, and kind reviews on Apple Podcasts about this podcast, and I appreciate that. If you have a moment, I'd appreciate your comments as well. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager,

but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot,

and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook. Starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes.

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he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now.