Something You Should Know - Deadly Risks You Overlook & Why We Treat Pets Like People

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

What really happens when you stand or sit up straight? More than you think. Posture affects your body and your mind in surprising ways. This episode begins with the science-backed benefits of tuning in to your posture. Source: https://www.medicaldaily.com/pulse/why-you-should-stand-straight-benefits-good-posture-345598 What’s most likely to kill you—and what can you actually do about it? That’s the urgent and practical question we explore with Dr. Tom Frieden, former Director of the CDC under President Obama and now CEO of Resolve to Save Lives. Dr. Frieden shares the latest science on the biggest threats to your health and longevity, and the powerful steps you can take to dramatically improve your odds. He’s also the author of The Formula for Better Health: How to Save Millions of Lives—Including Your Own (https://amzn.to/4gqvMSN). Why do we treat pets, stuffed animals, and even our cars as if they were human? Anthropomorphism—projecting human qualities onto non-human things—happens across every culture on earth. But why do we do it? Is there an upside? Can it cause harm? My guest Justin Gregg, senior research associate with the Dolphin Communication Project and adjunct professor at St. Francis Xavier University, unpacks the fascinating psychology behind this universal human trait. He’s also the author of Humanish: What Talking to Your Cat or Naming Your Car Reveals About the Uniquely Human Need to Humanize (https://amzn.to/4miASSg). And finally—why are we so easy to scam? Almost everyone has been tricked or swindled at some point - even the smartest among us has fallen for a clever con. We’ll look at why that is, and what it reveals about the way our minds work. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/cutting-edge-leadership/201109/the-5-reasons-we-get-suckered-and-ripped-off PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS!!! INDEED: Get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ right now! DELL: Your new Dell PC with Intel Core Ultra helps you handle a lot when your holiday to-dos get to be…a lot. Upgrade today by visiting⁠⁠⁠ https://Dell.com/Deals⁠⁠⁠ QUINCE: Layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they look! Go to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://Quince.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns! SHOPIFY: Shopify is the commerce platform for millions of businesses around the world! To start selling today, sign up for your $1 per month trial at⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://Shopify.com/sysk⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When you're with Amex Platinum, you get access to exclusive dining experiences and an annual travel credit. So the best tapas in town might be in a new town altogether. That's the powerful backing of Amex. Terms and conditions apply. Learn more at Amex.ca. today on something you should know the amazing benefits of simply standing up straight and the most recent science on what's likely to kill you and how to prevent it physical activity

reduces your risk of cancer not only reduces the risk that you'll get cancer if you're physically active and you have cancer you're likely to live longer be less likely to have a recurrence of cancer and be less likely to get a second cancer. Also, why it's almost certain you'll get scammed at some point. And anthropomorphism. The tendency we have to humanize our pets, stuffed animals, and other inanimate objects. I have a friend who has a guitar, then he's a jazz musician, and he's named his guitar, Chantal.

So it's entirely possible that when we anthropomorphize the tools and the objects in our lives, they last longer and they work better, and that actually made us a more successful. successful species. All this today on Something You Should Know. This episode is brought to you by Peloton. A new era of fitness is here. Introducing the new Peloton Cross Training Tread Plus, powered by Peloton IQ. Built for breakthroughs with personalized workout plans, real-time insights, and endless ways to move.

Lift with confidence. While Peloton IQ counts reps, corrects form, and tracks your progress. Let yourself run, lift, flow, and go. Explore the new Peloton cross-training tread plus at OnePeloton.ca. Something you should know. Fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Um, do me a favor and just take note of your posture.

You don't have to do anything, just take note of your posture. Hi and welcome to something you should know. I'm Mike Carruthers, and we're going to start today talking about your posture. As you know, as you've probably heard all your life, standing up straight is a good thing. It makes you feel better, not only physically, but also mentally and emotionally. And if you doubt any of that, notice your posture right now, then try standing up straight. It's guaranteed to boost your mood and make you feel more confident. Research has shown that good posture is linked to increased.

confidence, better memory, more energy, and a myriad of physical benefits. One study found that baby's learning ability was affected by their posture and that having a straight spine could make it easier for them to learn new things. Another study found that better posture was associated with more energy and a better sex life. Slouching, on the other hand, can put pressure on your spine, your organs, and your muscles, and drain away all your energy. Now, it's easy to forget about your posture while you're working, but simply trying to stay conscious of it and moving around frequently, especially when you're spending long hours in front of a computer or other device, can make a big difference. And again, if you doubt any

of that, stand up straight right now and notice the difference. And that is something you should know. We all want to live longer, healthier lives, and most of us know the basics. Eat well, exercise, get enough sleep. But here's the truth. Those general ideas only get you so far. What really matters are the specific choices you make every day that science shows can prevent the diseases most likely to shorten your life. That's what we're diving into today with Dr. Tom Frieden,

Dr. Frieden is the former director of the Center for Disease Control, the CDC, under President Obama, and is now the CEO of Resolve to Save Lives. He's also author of a book called The Formula for Better Health, How to Save Millions of Lives, including your own. Hey, doctor, welcome to something you should know. Great to speak with you. So before we get into the details, I mean, you have kind of a big, broad, sweeping message that you want people to hear. so please explain there's an approach a formula actually that is proven to have saved millions of lives

it can save millions more lives and it's very relevant for personal health issues and so when I hear that I think well he's just going to say eat right exercise get enough sleep and there you go is that it not quite those are some of the things and just because it's familiar doesn't mean it isn't important. What I'm going to give you is the plain truth about what really makes a difference to live a long, healthy life, and for a bonus, what are the ways that are proven to reduce the risk of dementia? And I differentiate what's really proven from what's maybe, from what's, I don't know, it's possible. You don't hear that a lot in the media and social media. So first, I want to know what's likely to kill me.

The thing that is most likely to kill you that you probably don't think about enough is your blood pressure. Blood pressure is the world's leading cause of death. High blood pressure, known as hypertension, kills around the world about 11 million people a year. It causes most of the heart attacks and strokes in the world. And most of those heart attacks and strokes are preventable with medicines and simple changes in our diet that we have today. That's a lot of people that are being killed by high blood pressure. Absolutely. And one of the things that the organization that I founded resolved to save lives does

is work with communities and governments in more than 40 countries to scale up treatment for high blood pressure. And I want to say this at the beginning, Mike, I don't take any money from pharma. My organization doesn't take any money from pharma. Never have, never will. All of these medications are generic. and low cost. But this idea that we have to either prevent or treat is really mistaken. We can walk and chew gum at the same time. We can prevent conditions like high blood pressure, and I'll give you a simple life hack to doing that. We can also treat them if we got them because that

makes a really big difference. All right. What's that life hack? That life hack is to switch the brand of salt you use in cooking and at the table to a low sodium. salt that's potassium enriched has anywhere from 15 to 50% potassium in it. This is the right thing for everyone to do unless you have kidney disease. If you have kidney disease, you have to talk with your doctor first because you can get too much potassium. But most of us consume way too little potassium and way too much sodium. And the best predictor of whether your heart will keep you healthy and vibrant for a long time is if you consume low. more potassium than sodium. Right now, most people consume at least three times more sodium than

potassium, two or three times more. So the simple thing you can do, whether you get on to Amazon or buy it in your local supermarket, is to buy a low sodium salt that has roughly 25% potassium replacing the sodium or more. And that simple measure has been proven in a really rigorous study to reduce people's risk of a heart attack, a stroke, or dying from a heart attack or stroke by 10 to 15 percent. Yeah, I remember hearing this some time ago that people think that too much salt, too much sodium is bad for you, but that that's really only half the story. It's not just too much salt, it's the ratio of salt to potassium. And if you increase your potassium, then you decrease your risk from having too much salt.

much sodium. Yes, potassium does a lot of good things. It's a nutrient. We should be getting three grams, three and a half grams a day. Most of us get only about a gram and a half a day, maybe two grams a day. And the more potassium you consume, the healthier your heart. And actually, you end up reducing your sodium if you eat more potassium, even if you're consuming the same level of sodium.

But we think people should have less salt and what salt they do have should be potassium. enriched. One of the reasons it's been so hard to reduce sodium is that it's just omnipresent in our environment. You go out, buy packaged food, eat something at a restaurant, it has just loaded with sodium. So it's really difficult for individuals to make a difference. But there are foods that are high in potassium, sweet potatoes, salmon, spinach, white beans, avocados, bananas, yogurt, pistachios, tomatoes, The interesting thing about all of those foods is that basically the more you eat of them within reason, the healthier you're going to be. You don't have to deny yourself delicious foods you love. You're better off eating more of delicious foods that are healthy that you also love.

So I've, and I think everyone has heard, the heart disease is the number one killer. But what else is going to kill me if the heart disease, if I dodge the heart disease bullet, what's waiting around the corner? Well, heart disease and stroke go together. These are two conditions that we refer to as cardiovascular disease, and both of them are deadly, and both of them are huge problems. The next leading killer is cancer, and there are a lot of things that we can do to reduce cancer risk. Some of them I think everybody knows about, for example, reducing or avoiding tobacco use. sometimes we forget about tobacco. It's so obvious.

It's such a big cause of death. It still kills close to a half a million Americans every year. It still are leading preventable cause of death. So if you smoke, there is nothing that will improve your health as much as quitting. And there are ways that are proven to increase the likelihood that you'll succeed if you try to quit. Medications can double your odds of success quitting. There are lots of other tips that really do work to help people quit smoking cigarettes. So really important to avoid tobacco.

But there are other things that make a difference with cancer risk as well, including alcohol. Alcohol increases the risk for certain cancers. You may have heard that one drink makes you healthier, but more than that is not good. That's actually not the case. When you look at the data accurately, the risk of alcohol consumption is linear. There's no safe level of drinking, and the more you drink, the worse it is for you. That doesn't mean you should never take a drink. It's a risk-benefit calculation, even if a very informal one.

But let's be clear about the facts. The facts are that alcohol increases the risk of cancer. There's something else that's really fascinating that I bet people haven't heard of much unless you saw a recent news coverage of it, but it's really interesting. Physical activity. physical activity reduces your risk of cancer, not just cancer, lots of other things, but stick with cancer for a minute because you asked about the other things that are going to kill you.

Physical activity not only reduces the risk that you'll get cancer, but a recent really well-done study showed that if you're physically active and you have cancer, you're likely to live longer, be less likely to have a recurrence of your cancer, and be less likely to get a second cancer. Now, I don't want to blame people if they feel, oh, I haven't been active. It's my fault. That's not the case. The point is, though, there are some things that are within your power. And it doesn't have to be going to the gym. Not a lot of people are going to go to the gym regularly. It doesn't have to be running a marathon or doing something vigorous. It can be as simple as four 30-minute walks per week, ideally out of doors. And really, physical activity is the

closest thing we've got to a wonder drug. It reduces depression, cancer, heart disease, stroke, dementia, arthritis. It improves sleep and memory and independent living and mood. So I really encourage people, again, as with finding foods you love, find things that are physically active that you love to do. It might be walking the dog or taking a brisk walk with friends or playing sports you enjoy or dancing, but physical activity really is very, very important. We're talking about proven ways to help you live longer and live healthier. My guest is Dr. Tom Frieden. He is the former director of the Center for Disease Control and author of the book,

The Formula for Better Health. Okay, flights on Air Canada. Oh, wow. Myorka, that's new. Oh, nice. But Vienna is a classic Mozart, Palaces and Schnitzel. Mm-mm, now you're cooking. If you're hungry, Deli brings the heat.

Heat. Cartagena's got sun and the sea to cool off. So does Martinique. Mmm, and that French cuisine? Book it. Yes, chef. Wait, what about Lyon? Choose from our world of destinations, if you can.

Air Canada. Nice travels. What did your ancestors really do all day? Beyond names, what were their lives like? With Ancestry's global historical records, you can discover incredible stories about how your ancestors lived and worked. And for a limited time, you can explore select occupation records for free. Imagine finding your great-grandfather's R-CMP records or discovering your ancestors' name in the

UK and Ireland Nursing Register. Don't miss out. Free access ends August 24th. Visit ancestry.ca for more details. Terms apply. So Tom, what about body weight? The obesity epidemic is real. It's problematic and I'm going to take kind of an exception to what many people say. I don't think we really understand what's driving it. There are a lot of things that have changed in our environment. I can tell you with certainty what is not driving it. What is not driving it is that people have gotten lazier and with less willpower because it's happening all over the world. It's happening to all different groups. And it's dramatic. dramatically different from what it was a couple of generations ago.

So we haven't changed. Our environments have changed. One of the things that I know people can do to reduce their risk is to cut down or cut out added sugars, especially sugary drinks. Sugary drinks are the single leading driver of increased calorie consumption in the United States. And they're empty calories. They have no nutritional value.

So I'm not saying it's the only cause, but it's something that we really can do something about. The other thing to know about body weight is even if you don't lose an ounce of weight, if you're physically active, you're going to be much healthier. What else do you find that people struggle with or maybe don't even know

that's part of your plan that really people need to know? Well, I think we can't underestimate the importance of sleep. Sleep, when you sleep, basically your mind cleans out a lot of the toxins in your brain, you're less likely to have high blood pressure,

your mood gets better, your productivity gets better. Now, it's hard to get enough sleep for a lot of people. But there's some things that are proven to make a difference, like being in a cool and dark room. There's some things that probably make a difference,

like avoiding caffeine, alcohol, or screens for an hour or so before going to bed, having a regular sleep schedule. I know that this is things that people have heard of, but it is important to understand that it's really important. It's not just about, oh, I need to get enough sleep. It's about thriving. That if you can get on most nights a full night's sleep, that's at least seven hours, seven to nine hour asleep, you're much more likely to thrive, to do the things that you love doing, to

enjoy doing the things that you're doing. What about gut health? Is this a thing that people need to concern themselves with, or it pretty much takes care of itself if you do everything else and eat right and all that? There are things that you can do. And here, again, I distinguish between proven, likely, possible, but there are some things that you can do beyond the low sodium. it and reducing added sugars, you can replace unhealthy with healthy fats. That means

olive oil and nuts, fish, and soy. You can avoid processed meats, finding healthy foods you enjoy, especially plant-based meats. You can avoid those sugary beverages. And also, you can increase fiber consumption because that's important for gut health. And doing that does what? What's the benefit other than, you know, your guts in better shape? But what does that mean? What does that do for you? So all of those things that I just mentioned actually increase the likelihood that you're

going to live longer. It's not just about feeling better. It's about feeling better for longer. And many of those things have some proof to reduce the risk of dementia. I talk a lot about the risk of dementia because as a doctor, And as a child of a grandmother who died with dementia, I really think this is a terrible way to go. It undermines our humanity in some very basic ways. Now, I understand there's a movement to accept dementia, but I never want anyone being treated unfairly.

At the same time, I think it is a fate we'd all like to avoid. And there's some things that are proven that can actually reduce it, that you may. not realize are really important. Things like fully protecting and correcting your vision and hearing. It's not just not having people shout that it's important to wear your hearing aids if you have them, but actually it reduces the risk that you'll have dementia later on and fully protecting vision. This is really important. There are other things like getting enough sleep, getting recommended vaccines that may reduce dementia, avoiding brain injury, of course, and treating depression.

And interestingly, either speaking a second language in conversation or playing a musical instrument regularly may increase cognitive reserve, and there's pretty good evidence. They reduce the risk of dementia. What's the connection, or maybe no one knows, of hearing better and dementia, what could possibly be the connection? Well, again, I like to stick with the facts. The facts are that it is absolutely the case that regular and full correction of hearing reduces the risk of dementia. That is a fact.

Now, why is a theory? The theory is that it's less sensory deprivation. It's less disorientation about what's going on. it's less stimulation that's good for the brain those are all theories they may be right they may be wrong

but just the facts are the facts are regular correction full correction of your hearing and vision to the extent possible for as many hours as possible

reduces the risk of dementia but I had heard that and I also heard what is the vaccine is it the shingles vaccine yeah shingles vaccine this is interesting

I got to tell you, this study was out in pre-print as the book was going to press, and I really waited until the full study came out. I actually communicated with the author and was able to get the final reference in to the book and read the article before it came out. There have been a few studies over the last five or ten years that have suggested that the shingles vaccine, if given to people who are 65 years, or so old, reduces the risk of dementia. Now, it seems like a strange outcome. And a lot of times when there are studies like this, there is something called residual confounding where there's actually a non-causal reason

for that association. So it may look like, you know, one factor and another are related, but they're just coincidence because they're both related to a third factor. And so I wasn't very confident that the shingles vaccine had this impact, although a series of studies have shown it, but there's a very good study that just came out that really suggests that this may well be causal. I would still say this is not certain.

I'm not even sure I would say it's probable, but I would certainly say it's at least possible. What we do know is that the shingles vaccine prevents shingles. And what it may do is actually reduce risk of dementia for reasons that we can get. about but we don't have any proof. Talk about optimism because that's something that you know I've heard this before that being up being an optimist can help you live longer but I don't know that I understand exactly why other than you know maybe if you believe it you make it so but what's the connection? Optimists do live longer and we're not entirely sure if that's because

healthier people are more optimistic but The formula for better health is see, believe, create, see the things that might kill us, see why we don't pay attention to those risks, see the pathway to progress, believe that we can change those things, and that includes through cultivating optimism. If you don't have optimism, you're not likely to take the steps you need to create a healthier future, whether that's taking medications or improving what you eat or how you move or who you interact with, optimism is a motivating force. Optimism is a way of driving toward progress.

And in the programs that I've been associated with in the U.S. and around the world, optimism is often the driving force, the single most important force. If we're going to think of can we really live a long, healthy life, less likely to get dementia, we have to have some optimism that it could. actually happen. Well, this is great. Some of the stuff you've said I've heard before, but I think you explain it better. And many of the things you said I hadn't heard before, or at least not explained that way. And I think it's really helpful to hear. Dr. Tom Frieden has been my guest. He's the former director of the Center for Disease Control under President Obama. He is now

the CEO of an organization called Resolve to Save Lives, and he has a book out called The Formula for better health. How to Save Millions of Lives, including your own. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Doctor, thank you for being here. It was a pleasure having you on. Thank you. Maybe it's just a phase you're going through. You'll get over it. I can't help you with that. The next appointment is in six months. You're not alone. Finding mental health support shouldn't leave you feeling more lost. At CAMH, we know how frustrating it can be trying to access care. We're working to build a future where the path to support is clear, and every step forward feels like progress, not another wrong turn. Visit camh.ca to help us forge a better path for mental health

care. Hit pause on whatever you're listening to and hit play on your next adventure. This fall get double points on every qualified stay. Life's the trip. Make the most of it at Best Western. Visit bestwestern.com for complete terms and conditions. We all know that our pets are not people, that our cars don't have feelings, and that our stuffed animals can't really hear us. But that doesn't stop us from talking to them, naming them, and even celebrating them. This universal quirk called anthropomorphism is something humans do everywhere across every culture. But why?

What does it reveal about our minds, and could there actually be benefits to it? That's what we're about to discuss with Justin Gregg, who has spent his career studying animal behavior and cognition, and he's here to discuss why it is we humanize the non-human. He's author of a book called Humanish. What talking to your cat or naming your car reveals about the uniquely human need to humanize. Hi, Justin, welcome to something you should know. Hi, Mike, it's great to be here. So I know that I certainly have done this and do this.

and I watch my kids growing up and they talk to their stuffed animals and things. I mean, I see it around me, but I was surprised to hear that it's everywhere, right? It's, I mean, it really is universal. Yeah, it seems to be a universal human trait. We anthropomorphize pretty much anything and everything. As long as it has a little bit of humanish quality to it, you know, eyes, for example, it's really easy for us to slip into treating it like it's a fellow human. I wish it had a better word because it's so hard to pronounce.

I had to read the audiobook, and I have to keep saying anthropomorphism, and every third time I mispronounce the word that is the subject of the book. I hear you. So even though it's universal, is it equally universal, or do some cultures do it more than others, or what? There are some cultures that anthropomorphize things more easily. Japan, quite famously, if you think, of like Japanese cute culture. They have a lot of cute, adorable robots and things. They have a

much easier time getting into anthropomorphism than other countries. But it is quite prevalent in North America as well. Yeah, but it is different per country and per person. Not everyone does it as easily. When you think about it, you know, you get a teddy bear and you start talking to him when you're very young. And then you watch cartoons and you see animals talking on television or in the movies and so you kind of, it's been normalized, so why wouldn't you? Exactly. I mean, that's a great example. Everybody's familiar with as a kid, you anthropomorphize everything.

That's what play is. You know, you pretend that your puppets and your dolls can talk and, you know, all of the cartoons are anthropomorphic animals, but then as you get older, you do it less often. But the capacity to do it is still there, especially in the context of play. And if you think about it, when you anthropomorphize your dog, like a lot of people put on the voices of their dog, they'll pretend to be their dog talking back to them. And most people don't really believe that their animals think

or are capable of saying all the things that we pretend that they're saying. So it's also a form of play, just like we did when we were kids. Yeah, I used to do that all the time. I used to talk to my dog and then answer for it. It's very common. Yeah. But yet it is kind of stupid, but... It's true.

it's only anthropomorphizing your pets people get made fun of for doing it a lot because it seems childish in a way perhaps but it's totally normal we all do it and it's a lot of fun and most of the time it's beneficial for us and the pets so maybe we shouldn't beat ourselves up for doing it so much why do people study this though i mean it's cute and it's fun and it's interesting and all but but is is it harmful is it good for you I mean, what's the so what? Yeah, so that's the question. Why do we do it at all? Why can't we just ignore animals and not interact with them as if they were humans? And the question is, what is it about our minds that forces us to do this? And really, it gets into the heart of what is it about the human mind that makes us human? Humans are so keen to interact with other humans, and by interacting with them, we want to know what it is their thinking.

And that is not how animals interact with each other. Humans are obsessed with figuring out what each other are thinking. And so this is just an example of how important and fundamental that is to our minds, that when we interact with like a coffee mug with two googly eyes on it, our brains think, oh, that might be another human and they'll start talking to their coffee mug. So it's a sign of something very important happening in our brains. But is it beneficial? Are there any proven benefits to talking to your cat or your coffee mug?

Or is it just, you know, it's a way to spend a few minutes and have a little fun? Or is it really doing something? Well, I have a friend who has a guitar. Then he's a jazz musician and he's named his guitar, Chantelle. And he's very good to his guitar because that's how he makes his living. So he, you know, keeps it in a temperature controlled area and talks to it. and so he's anthropomorphizing his guitar. But what happens is that that guitar will be in far better shape

than someone who's not anthropomorphizing their guitar. So it's entirely possible that because humans use tools and we've always used tools, when we anthropomorphize the tools and the objects in our lives, they last longer and they work better. And that actually made us a more successful species. Well, actually, that brings me to a question I meant to ask before is you said that it's fairly universal, but has it been fairly universal over time? Did people

thousands of years ago do this? Or is this a fairly recent phenomenon since movies, cartoons, and that kind of thing? I think when you look at art, so ancient Greek or Roman art, you'll certainly see examples of anthropomorphic little characters and whatnot and, you know, puppets and things along those lines, which are sort of anthropomorphic. And even looking back at Neanderthal cave drawings and things you have, sometimes you'll have characters in there that are sort of humanoid, half man, you know, half human, half animal. And so you've got evidence, at least in art going back tens or hundreds of thousands of years that humans have always sort of mapped our own minds and our own morphology onto animals and other characters in our art.

I would imagine there are some people who don't do this much at all and other people who who probably go a little overboard with it. But has there been any research where they compare the two, like the people that don't do it to people who do? And what's the difference? Yeah, there's lots of reasons why some people would anthropomorphize more than others. You find that women on average do it slightly more than men. People suffering from things like psychopathy or the inability to sort of empathize

with other humans in a really dangerous way. they're far less likely to engage in anthropomorphism so that it can be a sign, you know, famously if you treat animals poorly, that might be a sign of some deficiency in psychopathy. So it is wrapped up into different personality types for different people. And yeah, and then culturally you look at why some people do it more than others. And I look at this thing called the Uncanny Valley. And that's the, when you have like a humanoid object or cartoon that looks freakishly human-like, but just in the wrong way that it makes us feel sort of an ick response to it.

And you'll find that robots that are sparking this uncanny Valley thing, it's less likely to happen in Japan than in the United States. So looking at who does it and why and how to avoid things like the uncanny Valley is important for product designers. Product designers. Wait, that sounds kind of interesting. Explain that a little more. Yeah, so anthropomorphizing objects, that's a good way to, to get people to buy them. So if you put a, you know, a couple googly eyes on a toothbrush or you make it look more human-like, you'll find across the board, people are more likely to buy that

thing. So making objects more human-like makes us engage with them more. So if you're designing something like a robot and you want people to like that robot, you have to design it in just the right way so that it's human-like in a way that doesn't creep you out. So anthropomorphism in that sense is something that designers and marketers and roboticists are really interested in because they want to get people to interact with their products. Well, yeah, that's interesting because if you have a robot, if you think of a robot robot like Rosie and the Jetsons, you want her to be human-like. But as you say, that can get really creepy.

So that's a fine line to walk. That's it. Because usually the more human-like, the more we like it. but then we do hit that uncanny valley problem where if you think of that movie Megan, it was a horror movie where you had this, that robot looked very human-like, but moved in just the wrong way, and its eyes were kind of dead and non-human-like, and it makes us very much creeped out. And so avoiding that creepy feeling is important when you're designing a robot.

And a lot of that has to do with the way our brains respond to indications of humanity in the things that we're looking at, which is what drives anthropomorphism. Well, as you point out, or I don't know if you have, you sort of pointed out in this discussion that when people anthropomorphize whatever, it's always, are usually in a good way. Like, you don't create your coffee mug and turn it into an evil coffee mug. It's usually something cuter than that. Yeah, anthropomorphizing means to interact with something as if it's another human. And humans are very social. So we want positive interactions with the things around us.

So pretending that something is like a human brings us a lot of pleasure. And it's therefore beneficial most all the time. The problem is when you have an animal that you anthropomorphize. So you imagine that it's thinking and feeling these things, but that animal is actually thinking and feeling something totally different. You can stress the animal out and cause a lot of harm by anthropomorphizing it and getting it wrong. Well, you wonder how many people have had unfortunate encounters with animals that they've thought were cute. Like I hear, you know, koala bears who look adorable and you think of them as being so cute.

And yet I hear they can be pretty nasty. And, you know, if you go, I just saw a video where some, you know, bull was coming at this lady. And she thought, oh, isn't this nice? And, you know, guess what happened? I mean, it could be dangerous to do this. Yeah, and I saw that a lot with dolphins, which is a species I studied. People, you know, they think they're very cute, and the dolphins would be, for a scientist studying them, we would see signs of aggression.

The dolphins being very angry and potentially dangerous, but people would look at that cute face and think, oh, it's coming at me because it's friendly and maybe wants a hug. And so we get it wrong a lot of the time. But also in the other way, you have animals like sharks or alligators, or, or or spiders even, that look really scary. And so we're less likely to anthropomorphize them and, you know, want to kill them or whatever. But you can sometimes have a very friendly alligator or a friendly shark that wants affection or to be pet even. That's the thing that absolutely happens.

But because of the way it doesn't look very human-like, we're less likely to anthropomorphize it. There does seem to be a trend to do this more and more in the sense that, you know, people seem to be more indulgent. of their pets you know they throw them parties and they buy them clothes and you know the the pet market of buying pet toys and accessories i think is certainly a lot bigger than it ever used to be that that so this seems to be a growing thing not that long ago 150 years ago people didn't really even keep cats uh in their homes or dogs so they would have been outside animals but slowly over the decades we've been incorporating them into our lives to the point where now the majority of people in the United States and in the UK throw birthday parties for their pets. Most people

who own a pet will throw a birthday party for it. And that, I agree, it is a, it is trending upwards in that sense. I think there has been a stigma, especially in the 50s and 60s, of treating your pets like furry little humans because, you know, at that time we're like, well, they don't really have emotions or thoughts like we do. And now the science says, well, they do have a lot of emotions and thoughts that are similar enough to humans. So it's becoming less stigmatized to treat them like little human babies. And so, yeah, you're seeing it much more. This is now becoming a thing with AI.

And, you know, I can't see chat GPT. It doesn't have a face. I can't see it. But I feel like I'm talking to a person and to the point where, you know, I will sometimes type, you know, thank you. And I'm thanking nothing. I mean, I'm interacting with it as if it were human when it's not. Yeah, and there's been a lot written about that,

because some people say you shouldn't do that because it's delusional. But there's good science to show that feeling that obligation like you have or that I have to thank your chatbot for helping you out. It's a very human thing to do. And you and I both know that it's not another human. And so we're not delusional in that sense. And it's just good manners. And the good thing about it is if you're polite to a chat bot, you're more likely to be polite to a real person in real life.

So it's sort of flexing your politeness muscle. So I say it's, I say thank you to your chatbot. It's only good for you. In the cases where we talk to inanimate objects, you talk to your teddy bear or you talk to your coffee cup or even to your pet, you tend to do it in private when other people aren't around and you certainly don't talk about it with other people there's a level of embarrassment to doing it

even though everybody does it that is true there is still a stigma anthropomorphizing seems like something kids do and it's really been that way for a long time but just like where we're seeing people come out of the closet it as it were with their pets and throwing birthday parties, I think it's becoming more and more accepted in common to be okay with anthropomorphizing the animals and even the objects

in our lives. And I think we should embrace this behavior because it really causes no harm and it really is such a fundamental aspect of the human mind to want to interact in a positive social way that we should embrace it. So I'm all for talking to your stuffed animals. I think it's healthy and we should be proud of it. But generally, kids outgrow it. There comes a day where they want to put the teddy bear away and don't want to talk to it anymore. And that seems like normal childhood development. That is absolutely true that you get less likely to do it as you're older. However, that's not always true. People who are professional actors who or who play for a living in a sense, they continue to tap into this sort of childlike quality of playing

pretend. And there's a lot of science to show that if you can continue to be playful as you age and engage in acting or do improv or anything that involves a kind of play, which can involve pretend play, pretending a puppet is talking to you or whatever, it's always quite healthy. So it is very much true that we do it less often as we get older. But I think there's an argument to made that we should probably be doing it more often. This seems to be ripe for some people to perhaps carry it too far. You can carry it too far in the sense that you become obsessed with doing it, but usually it's almost always positive.

There are pathologies, however. Some people, when they're interacting with an object, truly do believe that that object has thoughts, emotions, and feelings just like another human. and that is a very rare kind of pathology, objectophilia is called. And yes, that does need, you know, you need to have a professional talk to you about that. But again, that's extremely rare. I think the bigger risk really is, and we're seeing it more in the news, the way we are interacting with AI can be quite unhealthy

and that a lot of people are having a hard time remembering that it is not another human that they're speaking to. cars seem to be another thing people like to talk to. They talk to their car. They name their cars. Some people do. I've never named my cars, but I think a lot of people do. I'd say so. Yeah, it's quite common to name your car. And if you look at a car, and there's lots of scientific research into this, the front of your car with the two headlights and the sort of grill in the middle, it looks a lot like a human face. And there's studies to show that our brains respond to the face of a car in exactly the same way they would. a face of a human, which makes it even easier for us to anthropomorphize them. And interestingly, cars have been getting angrier looking over the past few decades. Like if you think of cars from the, you know, 70s and 80s, they had bigger, rounder headlights. And now you have sort of squintier ones, which look more like someone's scowling. So our cars have gotten unfriendly in the past 20 or 30 years.

Yeah, I've noticed that when you look in the rearview mirror and you see this car coming up behind you. and you attach a personality to it by the way it looks when it's just a car. Yeah, but there's plenty of research to show that we really, universally, all people respond kind of the same way and agree that, yeah, that car looks angry or that car looks friendly. And again, it's because it's activating parts of our brain related to facial recognition. So we can't really stop ourselves from doing it in that sense. so except for those extreme cases is there no harm for this

this is just very benign this is just what people do and it just is what it is the harm really comes to the animals that we anthropomorphize kind of in the wrong way so if you think that your dog is being jealous or cheeky and you sort of punish your dog for doing things that scientists are sure a dog is incapable of doing our understanding

then that is the problem with it And of course, in the study of animal minds for scientists, we have to fight anthropomorphism sometimes because it forces us to imagine an animal is thinking something that it really isn't thinking. So that is a problem for scientists. But in most of your life, when you're interacting with an animal and pretending that it is like a little human, it's beneficial for you and it's usually neutral or beneficial for the animal because you're paying attention to it and giving it snacks and things.

So on balance, it's usually a good thing for everyone involved. What do you find that people maybe don't realize or don't know about anthropomorphism that we probably should know or would be interesting to know? I just think it's neat to realize that marketers and political propagandists are very aware of how humans respond to anthropomorphic, you know, animals and other things. And so if you look at a lot of the propaganda material or just, you know, in an advertisement, they are putting like big eyes on something because we're attracted to eyes and we're more likely to think, you know, to anthropomorphize something that has googly eyes on it. And so it has been sort of subtly manipulating all of our behavior for, you know, decades as people who produce these marketing materials use our anthropomorphism against us to get us to want to buy their products.

I think that's something people don't quite think about very often. Well, if nothing else, it's nice to know that everybody does it. Every culture has it. This desire for anthropomorphism is, we just, we can't help but do it. I've been talking with Justin Gregg. He's author of the book Humanish. What talking to your cat or naming your car reveals about the uniquely human need to humanize. And there's a link to his book at Amazon in the show notes.

Hey, Justin, thanks for coming. on. Thanks a lot. See you later. Have you ever been conned or cheated? Well, I actually already know the answer because everyone has been conned or cheated at some point in their life. And you have, at least partly, you have evolution to blame. You see, we're programmed to get along with other people, so the species will survive. So we have things in us like the trusting bias. We tend to trust people until we have a reason not to,

rather than not trust people until we have a reason to trust them. Reciprocity. When someone gives us something, we feel obligated to give something in return, and con artists know this and use it all the time. And then there's the fear of embarrassment. No one wants to look like a fool, so we're reluctant to call someone out as a cheater or a liar,

because if we were wrong, we'll be embarrassed. not feeling embarrassed is a strong motivator. So we keep quiet and we go along. Also, we like to believe in a just world. Believing the world is fair makes us trusting, but sometimes too trusting. Being aware that you have this inclination to trust other people can help you stop and question things,

especially when they sound too good to be true. And that is something you should know. Hey, if you haven't left a review of this podcast in a while, it's probably, or ever, it's probably a good time to do that. We really appreciate if you would leave a review, whatever platform you're listening to us on, there's some way, some space, some button to hit, and it will let you leave a review and a rating, and we appreciate that. We really appreciate those five-star reviews.

I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. You know, a lot of the guests who appear on something you should know have their own TED Talk. Did you know that TED has a podcast that drops a new TED Talk every day? If you love hearing fascinating stories, insights about human behavior, and mind-blowing concepts that weren't even on your radar before, I recommend you check out TED Talks daily. You'll hear hot takes and deep dives from the world's leading thinkers

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