Something You Should Know - Good News About The Imposter Syndrome & Simple Strategies to A Great Relationship

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

It might sound odd but the weather can have a significant impact on your purchase decisions. Some things you are likely to buy on a warm sunny day you wouldn't even think of buying on a cloudy and dreary day. This episode begins with an explanation of how this works. https://lifehacker.com/how-the-weather-can-influence-our-car-and-house-buying-5933701 Have you ever felt like an imposter? It’s that feeling of self-doubt that you are in over your head and that other people overestimate your competence and ability. It doesn’t feel very good but it could just be an indication that you are on the right track, according to my guest Dr. Jill Stoddard. She is a mental health care provider and author of the book, Imposter No More : Overcome Self-Doubt and Imposterism to Cultivate a Successful Career (https://amzn.to/3QeIRSj). Listen and discover why feeling like an imposter may just mean you are exactly where you should be No one ever said love was easy. Or maybe they did – but they were wrong. Successful relationships take work. But the work doesn’t have to be all that difficult according to Alexandra Solomon. She is a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute and a clinical assistant professor in the Department of Psychology at Northwestern University. She is also author of a book called Love Every Day  (https://amzn.to/3FxMX30)  Can someone actually die from being frightened? People often use the phrase, “Scared to death” but is it really possible? Listen and find out. https://health.clevelandclinic.org/its-true-we-can-be-scared-to-death/ PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! Indeed is the hiring platform where you can Attract, Interview, and Hire all in one place! Start hiring NOW with a $75 SPONSORED JOB CREDIT to upgrade your job post at https://Indeed.com/SOMETHING Offer good for a limited time. U.S. Cellular knows how important your kid’s relationship with technology is. That’s why they’ve partnered with Screen Sanity, a non-profit dedicated to helping kids navigate the digital landscape. For a smarter start to the school year, U.S. Cellular is offering a free basic phone on new eligible lines, providing an alternative to a smartphone for children. Visit https://USCellular.com/BuiltForUS ! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Download June's Journey now on Android or iOS. Today on Something You Should Know, how the weather can affect your purchase decisions in both good and bad ways. Then the imposter syndrome, self-doubt feeling like a fraud. Has it ever happened to you? People who have these thoughts and feelings are typically bright and successful, but they don't see themselves that way. They believe that other people overestimate their competence, and then all of that causes this fear of being found out or exposed as a fraud. Also, is it possible to literally be scared to death?

And some simple strategies to a great relationship. I think we all grow up on this steady diet of fairy tales that love is like the grand declaration or the sweeping gesture. But what the research shows us is that love is the little things that couples do that say we matter and the stuff we don't say. All this today on Something You Should Know. This winter, take a trip to Tampa on Porter Airlines. Enjoy the

warm Tampa Bay temperatures and warm Porter hospitality on your way there. All Porter fares include beer, wine, and snacks, and free fast streaming Wi-Fi on planes with no middle seats. And your Tampa Bay vacation includes good times, relaxation, and great Gulf Coast weather. Visit flyporter.com and actually enjoy economy. Something you should know. Fascinating intel, the world's top experts and practical advice you can use in your life today something you should know with mike carothers hello welcome to something you should know we've talked several times on this podcast and had guests on talking about how and why we make purchases of things.

But something that almost never comes up in the discussion is the weather. But if you're planning to buy something big like a car or a house, the weather matters. It can actually have an impact on your decision. The phenomenon is known as projection bias, and it can influence purchases that you might regret later. For example, a convertible car may look a lot more appealing on a warm, sunny day than the one you should be considering

for good gas mileage and other practical reasons. You might fall in love with that house with a fireplace on a gray or chilly day and completely miss the one down the street that has a pool and central air conditioning. It may not be as much fun, but experts say the best days to go house or car shopping

are not bright and sunny days. We're much more likely to take safety and security features into mind on rainy days and less likely to splurge on unnecessary features. And that is something you should know. I'm sure you and just about everyone else has felt that feeling of self-doubt, particularly when you try something new or you're in a new situation or environment. Typically, though, those feelings of self-doubt tend to fade away

after you start to get more comfortable and competent in what you're doing. But then there's something called the imposter syndrome, where you feel like an imposter, that if people really knew how incompetent you were, they'd never let you do what you're doing. You don't feel qualified. You feel out of your league. Even though you are qualified and you're not out of your league. That's the imposter syndrome.

And it is an experience a lot of people have. And usually when you hear discussions about the imposter syndrome, the discussion is like, how do you not feel that way? But what if feeling that way is actually a good thing? What if feeling like an imposter will actually propel you forward? Here to talk about this is Dr. Jill Stoddard. She is a mental health care provider and author of a couple of books. Her latest one is called Imposter No More, Overcome Self-Doubt and Imposterism to Cultivate a Successful Career. Hi, Jill. Welcome to Something You Should Know.

Hi, Mike. Thank you so much for having me. So as somebody who studies this, how do you define the imposter syndrome? It's a general feeling of inadequacy or phoniness that exists and persists despite evidence to the contrary. So in other words, people who have these thoughts and feelings are typically bright and successful, but they don't see themselves that way despite having many accomplishments. So they question their legitimacy. They question whether they truly belong, if they're part of an elite group. They believe that other people overestimate their competence. And then all of that causes this fear of being found out or exposed as a fraud. And if you're never found out, if you just keep that doubt inside, what harm can it do? I think the answer to that is twofold. I see this play out in two actually completely opposite ways.

So one is the way I think we would more obviously think of, which is if I doubt my competence, then I might hold myself back. I might not go for the promotion. I might not write the book or apply for the TED Talk. You know, these big things that seem way out of my realm. And so the cost is missed opportunities. I think the other side of it, though, is that we jump on this ladder or this hamster wheel, whatever metaphor you like, of achievement of if I just do this one more thing, this one more thing, this one more thing, then I'll finally feel legitimate.

Like we try to outrun it because it's painful and uncomfortable. And then of course, the cost of that is burnout and potentially taking you away from other things that matter to you. You know, if you become a workaholic and you're missing out on time with family or recreation or your health is suffering. Is it typically in professional settings or do people feel this in all kinds of situations? I think it's typically talked about in professional settings and that's where people are the most aware of it, but it can absolutely play out really in any context, especially a context that matters to you. So for example, if you're a stay-at-home dad where most people that are staying home with their children are women and mothers, you may feel like an imposter.

I know I feel it as a mom when I look at sort of what I call like the Pinterest moms, like the moms that make the amazing birthday cakes and throw the amazing parties when I'm buying the plastic box of cookies from the grocery store, you know? So I think it can really play out in any number of contexts, but most typically we see it show up in professional settings. What is it that you think goes through people's minds that starts that thought process of, I feel like an imposter? I think you know this is showing up whenever you ask yourself kind of the, who do I think I am question. That sense of, I don't belong here. What are they thinking putting me in charge? Any minute they're going to find out, I don't really know what I'm

doing. And I'm going to blow this whole thing up and then it's over. As opposed to thinking, wow, look at me. These people have enough confidence and faith in me to pull this off. Why am I not feeling that? Why am I feeling like a fraud? Well, this is unfortunately just how brains work. And we can tie this back to evolution. You know, early humans who hunted and gathered and traveled together had a survival advantage. And if you got kicked out of your tribe, it was literally a life and death situation. And so

checking your status, do I measure up? Do I add value? I hope they don't figure out that I'm not as good as I need to be or as good as they think that I am, because if they kick me out, I'm dead. And of course, in modern times, we're not worrying about the prehistoric killer kangaroo that might murder us on the savannah. But we do know, research has shown very strongly that the most robust predictor of our overall physical and mental health and well-being is the presence of quality relationships. So even today, if our bonds are threatened, and if you think about this imposter experience, really a lot of it is boiling down to what other people will learn about me. So if our bonds, our connections are threatened,

this is a deeply rooted concern that does have real implications for our health and well-being even today. As I think about all the times I have felt that feeling to various degrees, it's always gone away. And it's almost as if maybe it serves a purpose because when you feel like a fraud, you're extra conscientious not to blow it. And maybe you need to be to get to that point where you don't feel like a fraud anymore. So I think it can motivate people in certain ways. You know, Adam Grant, the very well-known organizational psychologist, talks about these imposter feelings can motivate us to work harder, like you're saying, because we feel like we have something to prove. What I think is the most important is whatever it is we're choosing to do when these thoughts

and feelings show up, that those choices are not based on avoiding feeling like a fraud, but they're kind of an away move from something we don't want to feel, but more that we're making conscious decisions to move toward the things that matter to us. So, you know, if getting your message out into the world, like podcasting, for example, if this is something that's really important to you, if this is a contribution that you feel like is valuable, et cetera, then you're going to keep doing it even if you tend to confront self-doubt in that arena. But you won't just keep doing it because you think if I just interview another person

who's a little more famous than the last, then I'll finally feel like I'm not a fraud. You know, that's really more of an avoidance strategy that doesn't tend to promote wellbeing. It does seem though, that when people feel this feeling of being an imposter, that it does fade, that it does go away, or you give up. But that most of the time, you feel like an imposter because there is that maybe you're new and you

don't really understand everything as well as everybody else. You're comparing yourself to other people who really get this, that it takes some time to get up to speed and you might feel like an imposter until you do. The answer to that is pretty nuanced, I think. So yes, I agree with you, but the only way that it's going to fade is if you continue to keep doing exactly the same thing that you're doing. And so there is research that shows that these imposter thoughts and feelings are actually correlated with success. So the more successful you get, positively correlated. So the more successful you get, the more you tend to feel like an imposter. And we think the reason for that is the higher you climb, the more you're expected to know. And so if you take what you were just saying, yes,

of course, I'm going to feel it when I'm at the start of a learning curve. But once I get to a certain level of mastery, maybe this will fade. But most people, successful achieving people, which are the people who experience this the most, don't stay there. They do the next challenging thing and the next challenging thing. And so as long as you're continuing to take on challenges in your career, then those thoughts and feelings are not likely to fade. And that's okay? I think it's absolutely okay.

You know, if you look at it as a sign, both that you're challenging yourself, you're learning, but more importantly, you know, we believe that pain is a sign that we should avoid, right? You put your hand on a hot stove, you do want to take your hand away to avoid a dangerous burn. But we don't want to apply that mentality to all of our emotional pain because our emotions are often a bright red neon arrow pointing out what we care about. Because if you didn't care, you wouldn't worry, right? Like when you think about what keeps you up at two in the morning when the wheels are spinning, we're not sitting there worrying about the fact that Ted Lasso is not coming back for season four, even if it was our most favorite show ever.

We're worrying about our family and our performance at work and our relationships. We hurt where we care is what Stephen Hayes, who's the founder of the type of therapy I do, is called acceptance and commitment therapy. And he says we hurt where we care. And I think that is so profound because if we take anxiety, self-doubt, uncertainty, imposter thoughts and feelings and go, oh, this must mean I don't belong here, therefore I should quit or move away, then we're likely moving away from something that deeply matters to us. And instead, those thoughts and feelings are very likely a sign that we're exactly where we're meant to be. We're talking about self-doubt and the imposter syndrome.

My guest is Dr. Jill Stoddard. She is a mental health care provider and author of the book Imposter No More, Overcome Self-Doubt and Imposterism to cultivate a nice life. Unfortunately, life doesn't come with an owner's manual. That's why there's BetterHelp Online Therapy. Connect with a credentialed therapist by phone, video, or online chat. Visit betterhelp.com to learn more. That's betterhelp.com. Metrolinks and Crosslinks are reminding everyone to be careful,

as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals, be careful along our tracks, and only make left turns where it's safe to do so. Be alert, be aware, and stay safe. So Jill, when I started this podcast, I felt this feeling, but rightfully so. I had no idea what I was doing. And so it wasn't, I was feeling fraudulently like an imposter. I really was. I really didn't know what I was doing.

Now I think I do, based on the success of this podcast. But sometimes you really don't know what you're doing, and you are a fraud, and you're maybe faking it till you make it. Yeah, that certainly can happen. Again, especially if we're at the beginning of a learning curve. But I think we start to gain knowledge and skills and expertise, but don't always give ourselves credit for that. We still believe we're friends. I had a friend and colleague of mine who I was interviewing who said, yeah, but what if you don't just feel like a fraud? What if you really are? And I burst out laughing because this woman is a CEO of a large healthcare company.

And she has worked her way up over the last two decades, three decades, really, and absolutely belongs there. But she still, you know, she works with a lot of PhD level people. And she, I don't think she even got her master's. I think she just has a bachelor's degree. But if you look at her CV, she very clearly has earned her way and is very competent. But even she was saying, but what if I really am still a fraud? What if I really am faking it and I haven't yet made it? So our brains just are not very good at discerning those things in an accurate way. When I've heard this topic talked about before, it's always about like how to get rid of that feeling. But you're saying, no, don't get rid of it, that it's a sign things could be

working, going your way. Yes. And I'm so glad you say that because that, you know, if you Google, if you look up articles, if you look up every book that's ever been written, it's all about, you know, building confidence and thinking positively. And if people are able to do that, that's perfectly fine. But most of us have tried and tried and tried and failed because our brains don't work this way, because we want to continue to challenge ourselves, because we're evolutionarily designed in this way. And so then now we're trying to get more confident, waiting to take on challenges until we feel more confident, failing at building confidence, and then feeling even more terrible than where we started. And I just don't think that's the best way forward. I think the best way forward is to learn to change our relationship to these thoughts and feelings so that we can be aware of them and observe them, but also not let them be in charge of the decisions that we're making, but to really let what matters to us, our values, who we want to be, how we want to show up in the world, what kind of life we want, to let that be what really drives us. And then that means we're often going to have to do it scared.

And that's okay. We can do things when we're feeling anxious and full of self-doubt because they're really just feelings. It isn't like you necessarily have these feelings or you don't. It seems to be a spectrum, like a scale, because sometimes I have felt like a real imposter and other times I felt a little like an imposter. Like it's a sliding scale, right? Definitely. And I think it's context

dependent. I think it depends on, you know, as you were saying earlier, kind of where you are along the learning curve in whichever context you're part of. I interviewed one person for my book who had had really significant imposterism and his did fade over time. And he attributed that to being in, he was in a number of elite universities. He's a physician and has a background at Stanford and at Harvard. And he had said that he felt like a fraud initially in these places, but ultimately was surrounded by leaders who really sent the message, if you're here, you deserve to be here. And I think for some people, they can hear that and not take it in. And they would certainly say, well, yeah, everybody else deserves to be here,

but they're going to find out any minute that I'm the one person who fooled them all and doesn't belong here. But for him, he was an example where he was able to take those messages in. And so that did fade for him over time. Now, it's certainly possible that it would pop up again if he were in a new situation where he felt less expert, et cetera, as you've commented on before. So here's the thing, though. If, as I said, you know, everything I've ever heard about this is you need to get rid of these feelings. So you come along and say, no, they're okay, but they're really uncomfortable to live with. So how do you make peace with them and not lay in bed at night worrying about what a fraud you are if this is supposed to be an okay thing?

If there were, you know, I know in your podcast, you want to give like tips, the thing that you should know, right, to sort of live your life differently. And when I think about if there were one thing that I could teach human beings that I genuinely believe would dramatically change the trajectory of their life, it is very, very simple. It's not easy and it takes practice, but it's because we don't want to feel the discomfort, right? We avoid conflict or other difficult kinds of conversations. We don't go after big things. There's fear of rejection, humiliation, failure. And if we were willing to experience those feelings, there's like nothing that we couldn't do. And so of course, easier said than done. But if you can learn,

there are lots of different strategies for teaching people how to strengthen these willingness muscles. So for example, if you want, we can even do a really quick one right now, where if you and your listeners, if you just fold your hands or your arms the way that feels natural and comfortable, and just notice how it feels, and now switch it.

So cross your arms the quote-unquote wrong way, the funny feeling way, or switch your fingers so you're just one over from where you were. And now notice how that feels. And notice especially the urge to let go or the urge to put it back to the quote unquote right way. And can you breathe and make space and just let this experience that's here just be? It's uncomfortable, but it's not dangerous. It's temporary and you can handle it. You know, we tell ourselves that we can't tolerate these things, but at the end of the

day, it's just a feeling. Really, it's just a feeling, right? And so there are many, many different ways that we can practice being uncomfortable in ways that are like benign and playful and sort of strengthen those muscles so that we can work our way up to things that are a little more challenging. I like to have clients, you know, in the summertime, go ride a roller coaster or in session, we'll watch movie clips like jump scares on YouTube or the last five minutes of Marley and me when they put the dog down and practice letting ourselves experience whatever emotion happens to show up without doing anything to stuff it down or push it away or avoid it. And it's incredibly powerful. And we can all do that without ever

going to therapy. It almost sounds like you're saying that if you're not feeling like an imposter, maybe you're not striving enough. I think that is very possible. Yes. Now, some people, it may not be in some person's set of values to be ambitious, to engage in skill building, to challenge themselves. And that's perfectly fine. This is not like everyone should be striving and doing more. And if you don't feel like an imposter, you're doing something wrong. This is really individually based on your personal values. But if those are things that matter to you and you find that you're not feeling anxious or having any doubt or any imposterism,

then that might be a sign that it's time to think about what's next. And if you're avoiding what's next to avoid those thoughts and feelings, then certainly that's something to pay attention to. Well, this is really great because it's such a different message. And it's very freeing because rather than fight it, embrace it. And it's just it's not it's a problem that you don't need to solve.

Yep, exactly. And I think that's probably the most common feedback I'm getting about this book is this is freeing and that it's different and that it feels freeing. Like, oh, I can sort of exhale and let go of this burden that I really enjoyed this. I've been speaking with Dr. Jill Stoddard. She's a mental health care provider. She's authored a couple of books, and one is called Imposter No More, Overcome Self-Doubt and Imposterism to Cultivate a Successful Career. And if you'd like to read it, there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes. Thank you for coming on and explaining all this, Jill. I appreciate it. Well, thank you so much for having me, Mike. This has been a really fun and interesting conversation. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives.

So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly

about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most.

Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back.

And in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. The road to true love can be a tricky road to travel. And today, a lot of people are traveling that road later in life, if at all. The whole landscape of love and romance and marriage seems to be changing. Here to discuss why this is happening and what is and isn't working in the quest to find love is Alexandra Solomon.

She is a licensed clinical psychologist at the Family Institute, a clinical assistant professor in the Department of Psychology at Northwestern University, and she is author of a book called Love Every Day. Hi, Alexandra. Welcome. Hi, Mike. It's so great to be with you. So we hear that fewer people are getting married, that couples are having fewer children, that people are putting off marriage till later in life and maybe not at all. So what's going on in your view? You're right. There are fewer married people today than at other times in

our history and people are getting married later. And so the best outcome of this is I think that there's a lot more intentionality about relationships. In fact, Match.com collects data from the dating app users. And for the first time since they've been collecting data, a partner who's physically attractive didn't even make the top five. The kinds of things that people are looking for in a partner have to do with emotional maturity, emotional availability, understanding themselves pretty well, a sense of humor. So there's a way in which if people are going to partner, they're going for the strength of connection, not just kind of checking a box off of a list and having somebody in their life.

So the relationships that are being created have a kind of richness and depth, or at least the potential for that, that I know my grandparents certainly were not even imagining. But you mentioned that the dating apps have a, have an impact on this. And I'm wondering if you, you see it that the way I see it, that it used to be that, you know, meeting somebody was a challenge. Now you can meet endless amounts of people and go out endless amounts of time. And some people are just fine with that. And the dating apps allow that to happen. Yeah, there definitely is an issue with quantity. That is, I certainly want people to feel like they've got a choice in the matter,

and they don't need to just, you know, marry the first person who invites them out for a drink, certainly. But I think we really are at the other end of the spectrum now, which is a lot of kind of high availability, low accountability that sets people up to feel both kind of like a commodity, you know, like they can sort of be taken or left, and sometimes to treat other people as if they're a commodity. So what I hear a lot, especially with the younger folks that I either teach or work with in therapy, is that they notice that they don't have a lot of capacity to tolerate disappointment or frustration or friction in a dynamic that they very quickly will be like, well, I'll just go back to my app and find somebody who won't frustrate me. But

anybody who's been with somebody for any stretch of time knows that feeling frustrated is part of the equation. So I think that we do have a bit of a low threshold right now for frustration, for disappointment, for imperfection, frankly, that is worrisome and something I want people to be paying attention to within themselves. That is really interesting because it's almost as if, you know, as soon as somebody, it's like disposable people. It's like as soon as something goes wrong, instead of taking it back to the store and paying to have it fixed, you just throw it out and get a new one.

Exactly. Exactly. And listen, I don't want people to stay in situations where they feel like what is required of them is to bite their tongue and tolerate behavior that is disrespectful, that is dishonest. I'm certainly not talking about that. But humans are so incredibly human-y. None of us are necessarily easy to get along with at all times. And add to that the fact that when we fall in love, we are put face to face with old triggers, with all of our kind of unfinished business. And that comes from our prior relationships. And that certainly comes from the families that we grow up in. So falling in love, I always say it's like shaking a snow globe. So your stuff gets activated. And so the best a couple can do is be willing to look at the baggage that they each are bringing in. Everyone brings in baggage and it is the brave among us who open up the baggage and look at why is it that when you don't text me back for

an hour, I feel abandoned? Why is it that when I ask you to pass the orange juice, you sometimes feel like I'm criticizing you? And so now we can have a really interesting conversation about the landscape of our own interior. So in that way, falling in love with somebody is a very, very powerful opportunity to learn more about yourself, to heal some of the pain from the past, and to be an ally to somebody else's healing journey. Something I've noticed that causes trouble in, well, it causes trouble in any relationship, in friendships that are close, in romantic relationships, marriages, is that when you get to know somebody really well, you're not

as careful about what you say. You don't always think before you speak, whereas you might do that when you're talking to someone at work, to your boss or whatever. And sometimes we say things that we shouldn't say in situations where maybe we would be better cooling off. And when we say things we shouldn't say, you can't unsay them, and that causes trouble. I spend a lot of time in couples therapy teaching people how to press pause. You know, when we get triggered or activated or flooded, whatever you want to call it, that feeling of urgency is so strong. It feels like, no, no,

no, no. We can't end this conversation until you understand where I'm coming from or until I say this thing or until you get it. But it's that exact feeling of urgency and rush and insistence that is what gets us into trouble. Because now we have not just the problem or the incident that started this conversation, but now we have the mess of all the things that we said when we weren't speaking from our best version of ourselves. And so one skill is learning how to pause. And I love when couples can step away and say, I love us too much to keep talking right now. Or I don't want to say something I'm going to regret. Or I'm going to go take a shower or a walk or a run. Like just noticing when your body has become upset and knowing that you cannot speak collaboratively, empathically,

like a team when your body is upset. So stopping and stepping away. And then the other skill that we have to always have is the, I'm sorry, right? Like love means being willing to say, I'm sorry a lot, even after years of therapy, even after years of being together saying, I'm sorry. And the I'm sorry is, I'm sorry, I didn't like how I said that. Clearly you didn't like how I said that. Clearly, you didn't like how I said that. But I also don't like it. I'm not proud of when I get into that place and speak to you in that way. I don't like that version of myself. So I have compassion for that version of myself. But I don't stand by it. So I'm sorry that my words hurt your feelings. I'm sorry that I

spoke in a way that I'm not proud of and that didn't feel good to you. Yeah, I remember hearing, and I couldn't agree more that, you know, the advice of don't go to bed angry is about the stupidest advice I've ever heard. That maybe you should go to bed angry and try again tomorrow. I agree. More of the same in a situation like that is definitely not the doctor's orders. Pause, step away. If you've got anything to offer, an I love you, or we'll get through this, or we can do it, whatever. But even if you can't offer anything like that, just pausing and stepping away. Because you're right, sometimes sleep is the exact thing we need, because it's like we need a break in the action to get some perspective. And when there's a break in the action, one of my favorite things, this comes from research from a colleague of mine at Northwestern, Dr. Eli Finkel, one of the best things a couple can do when they take a little

bit of space when things have gotten heated is to literally write down or open up your phone, a note on your phone, and write the story of this conflict from the perspective of a neutral third party who loves you both very much. So you literally write, Alexandra feels, and Todd is thinking. Writing the story from that third person perspective will help you kind of have that little more of a bird's eye view of what's going on. It will invite you to have some empathy for your partner's perspective and remember that they're actually a person that you like and not the person you're fighting against. And it kind of gives a different perspective. So that bonus point, definitely go to sleep. Bonus points for doing that little extra homework assignment.

So I'd like to get you to talk about the little things. And that's kind of what your book is, is, you know, trying to remember to do the little things. Because it does seem that, you know, one of the big relationship killers is life. You know, life gets in the way. It's so easy to put it on the back burner because there's so many other things to do. That's right. I think, yeah. And especially, you know, we're in this, we're in a very, I think there's sort of these like big global things that are really stressful where there's a lot going on. And certainly when families are working with, you know, multiple jobs and raising kids and the pressures of whatever it is, aging parents, there's always stuff. And I think that it is easy to put the relationship in the back seat when we know that that's actually the thing that is the heart of our well-being is the quality of the relationships that we have together, that morning coffee, having a date.

And I'm a huge believer that dates don't have to be a Saturday night dinner and a movie. A date could be brunch. A date could be going to play tennis. A date could be a hike. Just those little deposits in the relationship bank account, they don't have to be big sweeping gestures. I think we all grew up on this steady diet of fairy tales that love is like the grand declaration of the sweeping gesture. But what the research shows us is that love is the little things that couples do that say we matter, time together matters. And it's what you were saying before about like the stuff we don't say, the little things

that we don't say, the times we keep our mouth closed, not biting our tongue, not stuffing down our feelings, but just saying, you know what? That's not the hill I'm going to die on. I am going to let this one go and really, truly letting it go. So the little things like that are really what are the heart and the key to a relationship that feels healthy and thriving. Well, it's interesting that we all know that being on the receiving end, if someone puts a little, your partner puts a little note in your lunch, that feels great when you see it. But it's so hard to remember to do that. It's just like, because, oh, I got a meeting and I got to go and the kids need this. So you don't. That's right. That's right. Yeah. My, my husband

this morning just sent me some little funny thing that, you know, he saw online and it really was like, I could feel that little boost. Like, yeah, we're, we're apart. We're both in the middle of our busy days. And he saw this thing and he thought of me and he sent it to me and it really, well, I felt it like in my, you know, in my heart, it was a little, it was a little boost. And so you're right. And that's, you know, him doing that for me now sets me up to think about, okay, well, what am I going to do in the course of this day to let him know that I'm thinking about him? And I've had times when somebody really does struggle with this, I will challenge them to put a little alarm clock on their phone a couple of times a day.

And when that alarm clock goes off, think about your partner, send them something, share something, make a little plan for what you're going to do later with them. I think that having assists doesn't mean, I think sometimes people are like, well, if it didn't come from your heart, if it came from your alarm going off on your phone, I don't want it. No, we all need prompts and reminders to be the people that we want to be. And those practices matter. You know, there is a lot of emphasis on relationships, meaning that, you know, there are books and there are TV shows and podcasts. And it's like we examine relationships to death. And I wonder if it's possible that, you know, that all that talk, you're talking about the

relationship rather than doing the relationship, if that's a problem. I mean, you may not be the best person to ask this question because what you do is talk about relationships. But do you know what I mean? One thing that can happen is this whole world of relationship self-help has exploded. I mean, you know, I grew up in the 80s and my mom always had self-help books on her nightstand, but there's been an explosion. So it's not new, but there's an explosion. There's podcasts, there's TikTok, there's Instagram, there's Facebook. So some of us have these feeds where there's just so much relationship and mental health content coming in that we then

want to be forever in conversation with our partners about our attachment styles and our love language and our the families we grew up in and we and we kind of believe that unless we're doing this 24-7 we're not going to be okay and so for those people I really do want to give them permission to be silly to be light that you know some of it is talking about the relationship and some of it is just doing the relationship just being together just having fun together so relationship talk is vitally important because one thing we know is that if a partner is not bringing up concerns in a

timely fashion then by the time they bring up the concern, it's like a flood and the other one is confused. Like, wait a minute, that happened two weeks ago. Wait, that one happened six days ago. Why am I talking about it now? So I do think that there needs to be an ability to check in, to raise concerns in a timely fashion. But yes, I think there can be too much relationship talk. And so the one who is getting flooded or maxed out may need to say, let's take a pause that I have a smaller bucket for relationship talk than you have. So there is a balancing act that I think sometimes people struggle with. And we talked about, we sort of talked about it before, and that is you don't have to say everything or maybe think before

you say something and maybe let it pass, but also you don't want to not say things and let them build up. And it's a tough balance. Right. Right. When, if I had, like, let's say that you have a concern with me, I've done something that frustrated you or disappointed you. If you bring me that concern and you bring it in a way where you are speaking in a relatively gentle tone and you maybe even kind of fluff it a little by saying, I know you didn't mean this, but this hurt my feelings. If you kind of bring it to me in that way, you set me up to offer you what you need, which is empathy. I see it. I get it.

I'm sorry. What do you need? Versus if you come in hot and you raise your concern as a reflection of my character, you always do this. You never do this. You're so lazy. You're so critical. You are setting me up to get defensive with you.

And now what I'm going to do is explain to you why I did it, or I'm going to tell you how you did something very similar last week, or I'm going to tell you that you never let anything go and you're not going to get what you need. Because really the thing you need is just me to say, Mike, I see it. I get it. It didn't feel good. I'm sorry. Right?

That's really all you need. You don't need my explanation. And you certainly don't need me to tell you that it's not a big deal. You just need me to validate. Okay, you had a problem with it. You didn't like it. And in order to do that, in order to give you that, I have to remind myself that I am more than my thoughtless behavior, right? This is not a critique on my entire character. So I have to resist the urge to melt into a puddle of shame or to explode. Like this is an unfair attack against my character. So when you bring me a concern, that is like my friend Terry Real says, it's like you're coming

to my customer service window and you're saying, Alexandra, I have a concern. I didn't like this. And when you're at my customer service window, my only job is to validate. Okay, I see it. I hear it. I didn't like it. You didn't like it. I'm sorry. What do you need from me? And that is often all that is needed to take it down and to allow us to move on to the rest of our evening together. Let's talk about forgiveness because it seems that in any relationship that lasts long enough, something's going to happen that requires forgiveness. And we say we forgive and we're, let's move on, let's get past this. Yeah, but we'll talk about that. It's so hard. Forgiveness, I feel like the vast majority of my couples therapy work really is forgiveness work,

you know? And that's, it's so, I think there's times when we are hurt or betrayed or deceived and we end a relationship and move on, you know, like a friendship or a colleague relationship where we say, wow, that person hurt me. I'm out of here. And in a long-term marriage, so often what we do, what we have to do if we want to stay is to forgive and to open ourselves up again. So we're opening ourselves up to the very person who hurt us. And that can feel really threatening. And so I think that rebuilding trust is a relational process. It is me taking a little bit of a risk to trust you, to feel safe with you, to let my

guard down with you, to not remind you again of this thing. And it is you affirming that it's really brave to trust again. And that it is, right. So I love this definition of forgiveness that goes, forgiveness is a canceled debt. You know, we really could hold this debt against our partner, but research has shown that when we hold onto a grudge, it is bad for our own health. Like there's immune effects of holding a grudge and there certainly are relational effects of holding a grudge. And so as a person makes the choice to put the past in

the past, I really want them to feel proud of themselves, like proud of the courage that takes and proud of the risk that that takes. And I want their partner to be able to express gratitude, like thank you for that. That isn't easy, right? Thank you for canceling that debt. Not that it can never come up again. I think we may need to talk about it from time to time, but it's really helpful when the other person acknowledges, I really appreciate you taking the risk to practice forgiving me. What do you see in your work that we haven't talked about that is like a big overriding universally kind of problem that couples face that you think we should probably talk about? together for a while, at some point, they're going to bump into libido differences, differences in their desire. The chances that two people are going to want to be sexual in the same ways at the same time, all the time, is just ridiculous. It's not going to happen, right? There's going to

be differences. And there tends to be, you know, sort of a quote unquote, higher desire partner and a quote unquote, lower desire partner. And I think that the most important thing to say here is that every sexual problem is a couple problem. And it's so easy for couples to get into blame and shame. Why don't you want it more? Why do you want it so much? So when couples get lost in blame and shame, they're not going to be able to find creative and collaborative solutions or ways to kind of manage this together.

So I think desire differences are one that we probably don't talk enough about, but that are really common and so tender. Well, so much of this stuff is hard to talk about, or it's hard to bring up anyway. And it's good to get some advice on how to do that. I've been speaking with Alexandra Solomon. She's a licensed clinical psychologist at the Family Institute and a clinical assistant professor in the Department of Psychology at Northwestern University. The name of her book is Love Every Day, and there's a link to that book in the show notes.

Thank you for coming on and talking about all this. Thanks, Mike. Take good care. You hear this around Halloween a lot. People say the phrase, scared to death, as in, oh, you scared me to death. Well, can you actually be scared to death? Apparently so. You haven't yet been scared to death because you're listening to this, but you may have come close.

Experts say it is possible to be scared to death because you're listening to this, but you may have come close. Experts say it is possible to be scared to death. It's called stress cardiomyopathy, which can actually cause a person to die from an extremely traumatic event. It's pretty rare. Fear-related stress cardiomyopathy was first recorded in 1990 by Japanese doctors. The symptoms are similar to those of a heart attack. Most people, in fact, think they are having a heart attack because of the shortness of breath and the chest pain. Interestingly, this is the same condition, stress cardiomyopathy, that causes broken heart syndrome. The good news is it is so rare that you probably don't have much to worry about, but common sense would dictate that you avoid frightening, traumatizing, or throwing big

surprise parties at somebody who has a heart condition as they are more likely to suffer this. And that is something you should know. I know you know people who would probably really enjoy this podcast, and I would appreciate it if the next time you see those people, tell them hi for me, but also suggest they listen to Something You Should Know. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Do you love Disney? Do you love Top Ten lists? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan,

the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. The parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we don't cover on our show. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed. I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions. I asked Danielle, what insect song is typically higher-pitched in hotter temperatures and lower-pitched in cooler temperatures? You got this. No, I didn't. Don't believe that.

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