Something You Should Know - How a Little Surprise Will Change Your Life & How Introverts Can Thrive in the Workplace

Episode Date: August 15, 2019

Have you ever noticed that when you are working on a problem or trying to come up with an idea there comes a point of diminishing returns? The harder you concentrate, the worse it gets. It’s true for everyone and there is a sweet spot after which your efforts suffer. This episode begins with a discussion on why this happens and when you should stop trying and go do something else. https://hbr.org/2014/07/get-your-brain-unstuck At times in your life there have been important moments that have helped to shape who you are. These are transformative moments. Perhaps someone said something to you that made you think differently about yourself or your abilities – good or bad. So what is it about these brief moments in life that make them so powerful they can change your course in life or even change what you think of yourself? Dr. Michael Roussel is an associate professor at southern Oregon University and has been studying transformative moments for over three decades. He joins me to reveal the surprising reason why these moments stick with us and how you can use these moments to your advantage. To see Michael’s TED talk on the subject, click here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5O6mFWpgZo&t=3s  How do you clean a dusty oil painting or rusty old gardening tools? Well, those are just a few of the dirty things you can clean with some handy items that are in your kitchen. Listen as I explain. https://www.realsimple.com/home-organizing/cleaning/more-surprising-natural-cleaners As many as half of all people in the U.S. consider themselves introverted. As you might imagine, those people often feel at a disadvantage particularly when it comes to getting ahead in the workplace. However, there are some advantages to being an introvert and ways to play to those strengths according to career coach Jane Finkle, author of the book The Introvert’s Complete Career Guide (https://amzn.to/2Z0YmRr). Listen as Nancy explains some great strategies for introverts to navigate through the world of work. This Week’s Sponsors -Proactiv. Go to www.Proactiv.com/SOMETHING and with your order, you’lll also receive Proactiv’s “On the Go Bag” (close to a $100 value!) PLUS FREE SHIPPING & a 60 Day Money Back Guarantee! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu.

She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, ever notice that the longer you try to solve a problem, the worse you get at it? I'll explain why. Then, the fascinating way little surprises in your life can have an incredible impact. A surprise is essentially a

big burst of dopamine, which is our motivator neurotransmitter. When you're surprised, you get this massive burst of dopamine, and it says, stop whatever you're doing and pay attention. Something really important is happening. Plus, how do you clean an oil painting or rusty garden tools? I'll explain how to clean a lot of things with simple ingredients from your kitchen and help for introverts to get ahead in the workplace. And they seem to need some help. There was a survey that was done. What they found is that 80% of the introverts felt that they were at a disadvantage, that the extroverts would get ahead in the workplace before them.

All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most.

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The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. Have you ever noticed how when you're trying to come up with an idea

or solve a problem or figure something out, that it gets to the point, there's a certain point where it just gets worse? Like you get worse at what you're trying to do. Well, it turns out that that point is roughly 15 minutes. If you've been trying to figure something out for more than 15 minutes, you should probably stop trying. Our problem-solving skills plummet after that amount of time, according to psychologist Dr. Ron Friedman,

who is author of the book The Best Place to Work. He says that when we first encounter a problem, certain solutions just burst to mind. You know that feeling, oh, there's a million things we could do. But if none of those ideas work, our focus starts to narrow in and re-evaluate the choices, and that's where we're likely to lose sight of the big picture. Dr. Friedman suggests that after 15 minutes you should switch tasks. Once we let go of that problem and focus our attention elsewhere, our perspective expands and incubation begins.

That's your non-conscious thinking. The antidote or solution can then present itself when you least expect it, like in the shower or performing some other mundane task. And that is something you should know. I suspect there have been moments in your life that you remember that have altered your course, maybe in a significant way, because it changed the way you think about yourself, maybe in a good way, maybe in a good way,

maybe in a bad way. Perhaps somebody said something to you or some event happened that had an impact on you. And interestingly, there is a good chance that in that moment, there was the element of surprise. That thing that somebody said or that thing that happened to you surprised you. And that is really that happened to you surprised you. And that is really important according to my next guest. Dr. Michael Rozelle is an associate professor at Southern Oregon University, and he has been studying life-changing or formative events for over three decades. And in fact, you can see a TED Talk online of him discussing this subject,

and there is a link to that TED Talk in the show notes. Welcome, Michael. So start by explaining what you mean by a formative event. For me, the formative event is a moment that changes how you feel about yourself or how you think you fit into the world, a belief about yourself. And our beliefs about ourselves play out in our behavior. And so an example of a formative event would be what? There was an example of Lori told me this story. When she was very young, she used to think that she was funny-looking and odd-looking.

And at one point in her early teens, she overheard her aunt talking to her mother. And the aunt said, wow, your daughter is exotic looking. She should embrace those differences. And overhearing that, that comment surprised her because she always thought she was funny and odd looking. And ever since that moment, she embraces these differences and she feels rather exotic looking. And she said that was a key formative moment in her development. Because what she heard surprised her. Because what she heard surprised her.

In a regular conversation, if you just say, oh, you're exotic-looking, and she might just brush that off as, oh, you're just trying to be nice, you're just trying to be friendly, but she has got this firmly entrenched belief that she's really not that attractive. But because it was a moment of surprise, and the reason surprise works that way is because from an evolutionary point of view, when we were surprised back thousands or tens of thousands of years ago, that was usually a moment of immense opportunity or immense danger. So we had to learn quickly. So we've evolved to learn instantly during a moment of surprise. But not all surprises change who you are or change how you think about yourself.

Well, first of all, I should probably explain the kind of surprises that I study. And now we can be surprised if we see a panda running across our yard and we're not in China. And we think, oh, what the heck just happened? And so you would be quite surprised by that. But that surprise did not change who you are. But if you surprise somebody about their self-esteem or their self-identity, you can't check that out. You accept it because it happened instantly and it surprised you.

Let me just backtrack a bit. Surprise is essentially a big burst of dopamine, which is our motivator neurotransmitter. When you're surprised, if it's a big surprise, you get this massive burst of dopamine, and it only lasts like several milliseconds. And it says, stop whatever you're doing and pay attention. Something really important is happening. And we've all experienced that when we saw that panda run across the yard or somebody did a magic trick in front of us or we heard a big horn blast. So we get this sudden burst of dopamine that lasts a few milliseconds that says something

really important is happening. Pay attention. And then immediately following that, we get a selection process. The dopamine will either go up or down. And a dopamine level goes up, that means this is a good thing. If the dopamine level goes down, that means it's a bad thing. Approach avoid. So if we're pleasantly surprised, the dopamine level goes up and we approach, and if we're surprised negatively, the dopamine level drops and we avoid.

Let's use Lori as an example. When Lori heard that comment from her aunt about she's actually exotic-looking, that surprise, there's an initial burst of dopamine saying, oh, stop whatever you're doing, pay attention. And then the following comment, she's exotic looking, initiates a new belief. And now when she has interactions after that moment with friends and that, because she believes she's exotic looking, when she turns around and she sees somebody looking at her, and people look at you all the time, but now it becomes affirmed, oh, she thinks that person's

looking at me because I'm exotic looking. While prior to that, if she saw casual glances cast her away, she would have thought, oh, they think poor me, look at that unattractive lady. And so when you talk about someone saying to you, and it surprises you, that you're a really fast learner, does that make you a faster learner? Or do you now do things that cause you to be a faster learner? Or are you just surprised by it, and you're just surprised by it? Let me give you an example to try to explain that. Let's say that little Bobby is in a classroom, and he's really struggling. He's eight years old. He's third grade, and he's struggling with math. And as he's struggling with math, a teacher walks up to him and says,

Oh, wow, you sure struggle with math. Now, little eight-year-old Bobby has this idea, Oh, I sure struggle with math. Now, little eight-year-old Bobby has this idea, oh, I sure struggle with math. That comment explained his little, you know, why he wasn't doing well. So he struggles with math. And so now when he's doing math, he gives up easily because he struggles with math. That's his identity. And so from a neurological point of view, whenever he's doing math now, it's, well, why bother? So his dopamine level drops because it's avoid math. Now, let's just back up a little bit, and let's say we have this little 8-year-old,

and he's struggling with math, little Bobby, struggling with math, but a teacher walks by and says instead, wow, you're sure working hard at math, that's the sure sign of a strong learner. So he's surprised by that maybe. Now when he struggles with math, the valence for math is stick with it. That's the sign of a strong learner. So when he's a couple years later and he gets a tough math problem, what's he going to do? Is he going to give up or is he going to stick with it? And that's

where dopamine comes in. He'll stick it, he'll stick with it because his dopamine levels are higher. And even though it's hard work, he's going to stick with it because that's the signs of a strong learner. We're talking about formative events, those moments in your life that help to shape who you are. And I'm speaking with Dr. Michael Rozelle. He is an associate professor at Southern Oregon University, and he has been studying life-changing or formative events for over three decades. Hi, this is Rob Benedict. And I am Richard Spate. We were both on a little show you might know called Supernatural. It had a pretty good run, 15 seasons, 327 episodes.

And though we have seen, of course, every episode many times, we figured, hey, now that we're wrapped, let's watch it all again. And we can't do that alone. So we're inviting the cast and crew that made the show along for the ride. We've got writers, producers, composers, directors, and we'll of course have some actors on as well, including some certain guys that played some certain pretty iconic brothers. It was kind of a little bit of a left field choice in the best way possible.

The note from Kripke was, he's great, we love him, but we're looking for like a really intelligent Duchovny type. With 15 seasons to explore, it's going to be the road trip of several lifetimes. So please join us and subscribe to Supernatural then and now. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet.

Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts.

So, Michael, what do we do with this? Because you can't surprise yourself. You can't put yourself in situations to be surprised, because it wouldn't be a surprise. So, you know, surprises happen to all of us, and there it is. But so now what? Exactly. So if you know how surprise works,

and someone gives you a surprise comment and you feel hurt by it, you can stop and think, okay, that was a surprise comment. What does that mean? And I'm not going to accept it. And you can critically examine, is this something worth accepting or not? You don't have to accept it automatically because comments are accepted automatically, and then we just move on, and that's the way we evolved. We didn't evolve to question,

but most importantly, as a parent or a teacher or a coach or a supervisor at work, what you can do is, and let me go back to that experience with Bobby, and Bobby now who is told, wow, your ability to stick with math is a sure sign of a strong learner. In subsequent times, he is going to work harder. So does he actually get better at math? Well, I don't know if he gets better at math, but he's more likely to work at it, which is more likely to get better. So it's best used for other people. As a way to encourage and motivate. You can enrich their lives by having the focus on what they can do and how they can be, and by their own self-limiting ideas. For instance, let's just go simply back to Lori,

who believed she wasn't very attractive looking, rather odd looking. Now her life is a little richer. And for Bobby, who was working at math, and now he has a more positive outlook. And so, for instance, if you're a supervisor and you have an employee, and I mentioned this in the TED Talk as an example, but if you're a supervisor and you have an employee, and your employee doesn't think she learns her protocols very thoroughly, and you call her into your office and she's worried now, she's anxious that she's going to have some criticism. And in the moment of her anxiety, you surprise her and say,

hey, wow, you're a great employee. Your ability to learn your protocols so thoroughly makes you a valued employee. Now have a nice day. And you send her out of your office. Now because that was a surprise comment, she got that two-phase spike of dopamine, the first phase saying, what just happened? What's going on here? And then immediately after the surprise comment was the explanation, you learn your protocols thoroughly. And so from that moment forward, she now is, when she's learning her protocols and she's doing it slowly, she's not anxious about learning her protocols thoroughly or slowly, excuse me. She's excited about learning them thoroughly. And so what happens is it perpetuates itself. What if you surprised me though and said something that I know isn't true?

If you, you know, walked by the bathroom and heard me singing in the shower and said, Oh, my God, you're a great singer. Well, I'm not a great singer. I suck at singing. And so, objectively speaking, I'm not a good singer. So when your surprise compliment flies in the face of the facts, I would imagine it's less sticky. And so telling me I'm a great singer wouldn't do much good. Yeah, because I'm not going to change whether you think you're a good singer or not. But if I

say, well, the way you hold your notes and your ability to breathe evenly is a sure sign of a good singer. Now, what are you going to focus on next time you're singing? Your ability to hold the notes and the breathing properly. And normally you wouldn't think about that. But because I surprised you with that comment, now that is part of your evolution as a singer, if you want to pursue that. Well, as I listen to you talk, I think back on my life,

and I can remember events of things that have happened or things people have said to me that do shape who I am or how good I think I am at something. So this is a real thing, but I've never thought of it as that it's the surprise in that moment that is what really makes that difference. People have formative events all the time. They happen to you regularly, but we tend to dismiss them or not even notice them because they happen so fast.

Now, if you're in a position that works particularly with children or in a supervisory capacity, if you're at work and you work with others and you're giving feedback and you want people to, you want to maximize their productivity, you actually want them to, you want them to lead a more fulfilling life, a life with more significance. And by using surprise strategically, because my background is as a teacher and a psychologist and a researcher, and so I've always been engaged in enriching others' lives. And here's a mechanism by which to do that. Anybody who is struggling, those struggles have a flip side.

For instance, if you're really struggling with failing, and so you don't even try anymore because what's the point? So you say to this person, your ability to fail so gracefully is going to help you learn more. Then that's a surprising comment because they didn't think they were failing gracefully. If that comment surprises them, they get a burst of dopamine and that burst of dopamine says, pay attention, something really important is happening here. And then they listen because we are, from an evolutionary point of view, we accept the next comment quickly. Now maybe failing isn't something avoid, avoid, I'm just horrible at it. Maybe the dopamine increases just a bit or maybe substantially.

Well, the failing isn't so bad. It's the sign of learning. It's the sign of moving forward. And if that's true, that's a formative event for that person. So formative events can be very small and they can be large, like the ones I've talked about here where Lori went from feeling odd-looking to feeling exotic. That's a big one, and it's about how we phrase our comments

and how we can frame it in such a way that if we intentionally surprise somebody and we follow that comment with something powerfully positive, that can be a formative event. At the very least, it's a positive comment. But if you surprise that person, it's probably formative. And it seems that you could use this for good or evil, that that kind of surprise in those formative moments

that can be very beneficial to a person, when you turn it around, you could also really cause some harm as well. Many of the formative events we've had in our life have negative effects. When you think you're really doing well and somebody says, surprises you by saying, that's really the silliest, stupidest thing I've ever heard. Now, that surprise comment,

you're much less likely to pursue that avenue because you were surprised. So it can have positive and it can have negative consequences. Well, it does have positive and negative, and those formative events can be highlights or lowlights in your life. We have many of them, and many of them were triggered by surprise. And really, anyone can test this out for themselves after listening to you. You can think back in your own life and think of those formative events and when someone surprised you or something surprised you and how it may have changed you.

Dr. Michael Rozelle has been my guest. He is an associate professor at Southern Oregon University. He's been studying life-changing or formative events for over three decades. And you can see a TED Talk of him talking more about this. There's a link to that TED Talk in the show notes. Thank you, Professor. Thanks very much for the call. All the best to you, Mike.

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Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things

pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. It's hard enough for anyone to move up in their career, to get the next job, to network with other people, and just generally navigate the world of work. And it's even harder for introverts. Clearly, in the employment world, extroverts have an obvious advantage. However, there just may be something about being an introvert that you can use to your

advantage if you understand how. Which is where Jane Finkel comes in. Jane is a career coach, writer, and advisor, and author of a book called The Introvert's Complete Career Guide, From Landing a Job to Surviving, Thriving, and Moving on Up. Hi, Jane. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Hi, Mike. Happy to be here. So can we begin by agreeing with what I just said, that generally it's harder for introverts to move up the career ladder? That's correct. We live in a culture that rewards speaking up and taking initiative, and these seem to be natural

qualities that extroverts are born with or seem to have developed really well. I think one of the big differences that often extroverts think and talk at the same time, where introverts tend to think before they speak. And so in this culture where we really focus in on getting out there and taking initiative and taking action, introverts definitely feel that they're at a disadvantage. Because of that, you think that's the big thing that they think before they speak, whereas extroverts speak and talk at the same time, or is that just one element of this? Well, I think that's one element, especially in the workplace.

You know, if you're at a meeting, usually the extroverts get the ball rolling and they're talking. And as this is happening, the introverts are observing and processing. And sometimes by the time the meeting is over, anything that they wanted to say is lost. So I think that their ability to reflect and their natural reservation actually can bring a lot of positive things to the workplace. Well, it does seem that the advice to introverts has been what you really need to do is be more extroverted, that that's the fix for this. You know, in fact, there was a survey that was done by the Leadership Institute,

and they took a sample of introverts. What they found is that 80% of the introverts felt that they were at a disadvantage and that the extroverts would get ahead in the workplace before them. So I think that just reinforces the pressure that introverts feel to integrate in extroverted skills. So I always say to introverts to embrace their good qualities and sprinkle in extroverted skills. But I don't think you hear a lot of extroverts say that they would like to be more introverted. Clearly, because being introverted implies that you're quiet, that you don't say much, that you don't toot your own horn, that you don't participate, that you're the ones sitting in the corner not doing anything. Even though you may be doing something, I think that's people's perception, that you're

quiet, you're really not, you're not part of the team. But in fact, there's some really powerful things that are going on while you're silent, and I think there's a lot of power in just being quiet. If you think of there are a lot of well-known people that are introverted, you know, Bill Gates, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Gandhi, and think of the amazing accomplishments. But it took them, they needed solitude and quiet to achieve those amazing achievements. And so what's the lesson there? I think the lesson is that our culture really could embrace introversion much more,

or at least appreciate it because one of the things about being quiet is that to be creative, you have to have time to think and you have to be in a quiet place. So I think it's really valuable in our culture if we could embrace it a little bit more and also in the workplace allow for more privacy and quiet time because it does generate ideas. So people who talk a lot don't always come up with the best ideas. They just think they do. Right. And because they're talking it through and people are responding, it usually moves towards their direction. So how do you... I understand it would be nice if the culture was different,

but that's a bit of a longer... That's going to take more than an afternoon to fix. So what does a person do if they're in that position, given that they're an introvert, what do they do to get in the game? They use some of their best qualities. So one best quality about thinking in advance, that's what they use to prepare for a meeting or to prepare for an interview. One of the things that introverts do really well is they have this intense ability

to concentrate and pull up some really substantial information. So if they're in the workplace and they're going to a meeting or they're going to do a presentation, what they do is that they spend a lot of time in advance planning what they're going to say. So it's all about using that ability to think in advance and then come to the meeting prepared. And also, I think what also helps introverts is rehearsal. So maybe it's just going through their notes.

Maybe it's trusting a friend or a colleague to review some of their thoughts or some of the way that they're going to present. I think that extroverts are a little better at speaking extemporaneously, where introverts will do fine as long as they have time to think about it and plan. Which is great for a meeting, but in day-to-day, I mean, meetings are maybe, what, once a week, twice a week, but in day-to-day, sitting at the desk, and the world is swirling around you, what can they do to handle life as it comes at them? I think that they really have to make a point of initiating relationships. So I often suggest to clients who are struggling with some of these issues

that they take at least five minutes every day and initiate a conversation with someone. If they're having issues at work, you know, it's very important for them. They'll want to think about it first, but to then actually take the initiative to talk to the person that they're having a conflict with. But I think it's really important that they initiate. The other thing that they can do is there's great value for introverts in social media and using the Internet

because then they're behind the screen. So, you know, for example, if they go to a meeting and they didn't get a chance to say anything, they can maybe email the group afterwards and say, you know, after the meeting I came up with this great idea, or I think I've got a solution to the problem we were talking about. So even if they don't speak up right away, it's never too late. But they just have to be sure then to follow through on that. Are there things that you find that introverts

are good at talking about, can get a little more extroverted when they talk about some things than others? Introverts have this ability for deep concentration. So often they can dig a little bit deeper than extroverts. So when it comes time for talking about ideas or, you know, something going on in a meeting, they might at the end, after they've had an opportunity to listen carefully, they're likely to come up with something very insightful. I think the other thing that they're good at is that because they're giving themselves enough time to think, they often come up with new ideas or really good solutions to problems. So, and, you know, in a situation where there's

a problem, you know, some issue that comes up and your supervisor or the boss wants a quick response, you know, if they can give the introvert about five minutes to think it through or the next day, if it's possible, you're likely to come up with a really interesting, maybe innovative approach to solving the problem or, you know, a brand new idea. What's the difference between being an introvert and just being shy? I think that's a great question. I think that shyness is fear of social judgment. So introverts aren't necessarily shy. You know, they tend to be more reserved in social situations, and they often need more solitude. But it doesn't necessarily mean that they're shy.

Are shy people, by definition, introverts? Not necessarily, because extroverts can be shy in social situations, too. Well, we're all shy in some situations. I mean, if you go to the White House and meet the president, you might feel a little intimidated and act a little shy because it's all kind of overwhelming. So, I mean, it's all kind of situational, isn't it? Right. Well, I think it's more associated to introverts.

In fact, they did a survey, and 81% of extroverts perceived introverts as shy, but only 35% of introverts said that they thought that they were shy. So I think, as you said, extroverts or introverts can be shy in different situations. But in general, introversion doesn't mean shyness. It might just mean more that they're quieter. So they generally don't like small talk. So when they go to a large event, they will talk to people, but it will be more rewarding to them and satisfying if they were able to find one or two people and have an in-depth conversation. So they're very good at drawing people out in

social situations. You know, that's one of their strengths. Do you find that when you work with people and talk to them that even though they know they're an introvert and they know that perhaps there are some disadvantages in the workplace to being an introvert. Do they struggle, therefore, with being an introvert or they're fine with it? Oh, I think that at some point most introverts find it challenging or there's something that happens in their work environment where they realize that the introversion is getting in the way. And I had my own experience where I was working at the University of Pennsylvania. It's a very competitive environment, and I would go to

meetings and freeze up. And I realized that, you know, I wasn't going to succeed if I couldn't figure out how to speak up. What happened is that I had this opportunity to move to another section of the office, and it required that I interview with my potential new boss. And when the director went to the new boss and said, you know, that I was interested in the position, the gal who was the new boss said, I don't need to interview her. I think she's great.

So what I learned from that was two things. It was pivotal because I learned that there were parts of being introverted that were really valuable. She must have observed how I interacted with people. But it didn't solve the problem of speaking up. So I had to move beyond my comfort zone and take some risks. And I think that my example is true for many introverts who at some point are challenged by something,

whether it's a meeting or initiating relationships. They're going to have to learn to speak up and move beyond their comfort zone. If, in fact, you are an introvert, should the goal be to try to be less of an introvert? Because that is, in fact, who you are. I think it's just a dimension of who you are. And I think the way to think about introversion and extroversion is it's an energy. So introverts are more energized by reflection and introspection and solitude. And extroverts are more energized by a lot of interaction with the external world. So I don't think it's, according to Carl Jung,

who is the one who actually came up with the theory, he said it was inborn. But as I said before, we have experiences, and the environment can impact us in different ways, and so we can shift over time. It's not stagnant or static. It can change based on our experiences. So if I'm an introvert listening to you and your advice, where do you suggest I begin? How do I start to use my introversion to

my advantage? You should begin with the qualities that you have that are really attributes and do contribute. So, you know, the fact, one of the things that introverts do really well is that they ask great questions and they know how to draw people out. So when I work with introverts, I like them to really feel good about those qualities and how they can add value in the workplace and in relationships. And then the part that is very important for them is the American culture is extroverted. So in order to thrive and survive in our culture, they're going to have to develop extroverted skills. And so they can start, you know, it's not all of a sudden they become a social butterfly. They start with some basics.

It might just be someone that they're interested in and they've been a little reserved about reaching out. So they just take some initiative, just a baby step, to call somebody they don't know very well. I imagine it's even more challenging to be an introvert now in the workplace because there is so much emphasis on teams and teamwork and we're gonna do this project as a team and that being part of a team is more difficult for an introvert who probably does better on their own. I think that's true and I think we would be better off not to... There's some madness sometimes in all this teamwork, and I think that the workplace would do better by giving people more time for solitude

and to think things through more carefully. And I agree that's not going to happen overnight, but I think that balance would be really valuable to the workplace and to all of us. Well, I know I've heard the statistic that up to half of all people in the U.S. consider themselves introverted to some extent, and I would bet it's even more in the sense that there are people who maybe don't think they're introverted exactly, but are not as extroverted as they would like to be

and think that they're at a disadvantage. So this is really good advice for everybody. My guest has been Jane Finkel. She is a career coach and author of the book, The Introvert's Complete Career Guide from Landing a Job to Surviving, Thriving, and Moving on Up. You'll find a link to her book in the show notes. Thank you, Jane. Okay, thank you so much. If you need to wash your hands and you don't have soap, what do you do? Well, you might want to head

to the kitchen and get some oatmeal. Oatmeal works extremely well. You make a paste of oatmeal and water and then just scrub your hands. Here are some other unusual ways to clean things around the house. You can clean the surface of an oil painting with a slice of white bread. You just dab the bread on the surface of the oil painting and it will pick up dust and dirt. Ketchup will clean brass and copper pots. Just wipe it on, let it sit for a while, rinse and dry. Tea can clean rusty garden tools. You brew a few pots of strong black tea, let it cool, and then put it in a bucket. Soak the garden tools in the bucket for a few hours and wipe them clean. If you spill something greasy on a carpet, try pouring dry

cornstarch on it and wait 15 to 30 minutes and then vacuum. The cornstarch should have absorbed the grease. And that is something you should know. That's the podcast today. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible

criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very We'll be right back. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple,

or wherever you get your podcasts.