Something You Should Know - How Anyone Can Learn Anything & The Fascinating Science of Human Attachment

Episode Date: September 2, 2019

It’s quite common and convenient to take medication or vitamin pills with a gulp of coffee or juice in the morning. But should you? The episode begins with a discussion on how important it is to use the right beverage to help you swallow those pills. https://www.thehealthsite.com/diseases-conditions/is-it-ok-to-take-medicines-with-soft-drinks-coffee-milk-or-juices-bs1017-527100/ Are there subjects or activities you are good at learning? Do you believe you have a certain aptitude for some things more than others? Maybe – but maybe it has more to do with what you believe than it has to do with your actual aptitude or ability. That’s according to Jo Boaler, a professor of education at Stanford University and author of the book Limitless Mind: Learn, Lead, and Live Without Barriers (https://amzn.to/2ZMdAtW). Listen to hear her explain how your beliefs about learning as well as how you are taught have a big impact on how well you learn. And she believes you can learn anything – with the right belief. We humans attach ourselves to other people. That’s what we do. So what does it mean to be “attached?” It turns out there is a lot more to it than you might think. Joining me is Dr. Amir Levine who is a psychiatrist, neuroscientist and author of the book, Attached: The New Science of Adult Attachment and How It Can Help You Find - and Keep – Love (https://amzn.to/2MNR1D8). He describes the science of attachment and how there are three style of attachment. Which one are you? Listen to find out. Amir's website to take the quiz is www.Attachedthebook.com If you tend to overspend, you may want to change your footwear. Listen as I explain how wearing the right shoes can help curb your spending. http://www.business-standard.com/article/news-ians/shop-in-high-heels-to-controloverspending-113082700521_1.html This Week's Sponsors -Babbel. To learn a language go to www.Babbel.com and get a whole year of access to Babbel for as low as $3.50 a month!  -Proactiv. Go to www.Proactiv.com/SOMETHING and with your order, you’lll also receive Proactiv’s “On the Go Bag” (close to a $100 value!) PLUS FREE SHIPPING & a 60 Day Money Back Guarantee! -Embark Dog DNA Kit. Go to www.EmbarkVet.com and use Promo code SOMETHING to save 15% off your Dog DNA Test Kit -Upstart. Find out how low your interest rate is by going to www.Upstart.com/something Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu.

She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more. Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Today on Something You Should Know, how you take your medication is very important and a lot of people take it wrong, which makes it less effective. Then a new way to look at learning and that you really can learn anything well. The wealth of

evidence from neuroscience and from education is that when people believe in their potential, they can actually go to any place in learning. We also have evidence that what you believe about your potential actually changes the way your brain works. Also how the shoes you wear can affect how much you spend at the store. And the fascinating science behind human attachment. When we get attached to someone, it's actually a molecular process that happens in the brain in the sense that then our physiological and psychological well-being

becomes intertwined with them and dependent on them. All this today on Something You Should Know. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like Something You Should Know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years.

She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast.

The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know. We have a little mystery on our hands. It's happened a couple of times in the history of this podcast where one day,

all of a sudden, our listenership just jumps up and we don't know why. It happened last Thursday. We had a huge jump in the number of listeners on that day, and it sustained itself going into the holiday weekend. And I don't know why. Maybe we were mentioned in an article. I don't know. So if you are a new listener and something prompted you outside to listen to this podcast, drop me a line and let me know what it was.

I'd love to hear. You can reach me at mikeatsomethingyoushouldknow.net. mikeatsomethingyoushouldknow.net. We start today with how you take your vitamins and medications and things. If you use coffee or juice to swallow those pills, you could be reducing their effect. It's best to take them with water because beverages other than water can have an adverse effect on how well those pills work. This is true even for drugs to treat life-threatening illnesses like cancer and heart disease,

as well as for vitamin supplements and everything in between. For example, in one study, people who took an antihistamine with grapefruit juice only absorbed about half the drug compared to people who took it with water. Also, and this is really important to note, water is used in virtually all clinical trials for people taking pills. So by sticking to that, there's less chance of altering the effect on the pills that we take. And that is something you should know. We all spend our entire lives learning.

We're always learning. And we have beliefs about how well we learn and what we're good at learning. We're always learning. And we have beliefs about how well we learn and what we're good at learning. For example, you might think that you're not very good at learning math or a foreign language or playing an instrument. Or maybe you think you really are good at math, but you have no aptitude for history or public speaking. Well, what if those beliefs are totally wrong? What if you could learn to do anything well if, in fact, you believed you could and were not restricted by the idea of, well, I'm not very good at that? And what if your ability to learn something had a lot to do with how you're taught? Here to explain all this is Jo Bowler.

Jo is a professor of education at Stanford University, and she's author of the book Limitless Mind, Learn, Lead, and Live Without Barriers. Hi, Jo. Thank you very much for having me. So what's the big message here? What are you trying to get people to understand, or what myth are you trying to refute here? Well, I would say the biggest myth that I'm trying to address is the idea that we are fixed in what we can do and that we have limits to what we can do.

Because the wealth of evidence from neuroscience and from education is that when people believe in their potential, they can actually go to any place in learning. And we also have evidence that what you believe about your potential actually changes the way your brain works and actually changes what you go on to learn and achieve. And so what does that mean then when people say, I have an aptitude or I have no aptitude for math or science? Are you saying that's baloney? Yes, are you saying that's baloney? Yes, I am saying it's baloney. One of the cases that I share in my new book is the case of

Nicholas Letchford, who was a young boy who grew up in Australia with severe learning disabilities, and in first grade, his parents were told that he was the worst child that the teachers had encountered in 20 years, because he couldn't read or write or make connections. And he had a host of learning difficulties. Nicholas graduated last year with a doctorate in applied mathematics at Oxford University. And he isn't the only case of people who've gone on to really counter those barriers in their lives and achieve amazing things. So I think these old, that I'm born with this kind of brain and that's, you know, I'm stuck with it, I can't achieve in maths or art or English or anything is really incorrect.

But that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone learns it as easily as everyone else. We're all born with different brains, but what we know is that every time you learn something, there's one of three things that happens in the brain. Either you form a new pathway, you make connections between pathways, or you strengthen a pathway. So every moment of our lives, we have the opportunities to develop all of those pathways. By the time children are in school, they've already had millions of different opportunities to develop pathways. So it doesn't mean that everybody is at the same place and can learn in the same ways, but we do know that anybody can get there. So even if you're in a classroom and you look across at someone and think, oh, they can do this so much quicker than I can, or it's easier for them, what's really important to remember is you can be in that same place too. And yet I think everyone has had the experience, probably in school if not somewhere

else, that refutes what you just said, that you could get there. Because I think everybody has subjects that they feel that they cannot do, and perhaps because they feel that they lose interest and they don't do them. But I remember in high school, you know, chemistry was extremely hard. I didn't get it. I just didn't get it. And I don't think I was ever going to get it. And there were plenty of other people in the class who got it. And I tried. I enjoyed it. I liked it. I just didn't get it. What you've just said to me, what it illustrates is once you think you can't do something, your brain actually functions differently. And we know that your self-belief is so important in what you can do. But it isn't just your

self-belief. I don't want to suggest that we believe things that anybody can go on and do anything. The teaching really matters as well. What I do say, though, is that if you have really positive beliefs and you're getting the right messages from your teacher and the right approach to teaching, then yes, you can learn anything. But those things have to come together in those moments, and that's what we don't see happening too often. I saw that you taught or teach a class called How to Learn Math. And I saw that and I thought, wow, I wish I had that class,

because nobody teaches you about how to learn something. They just teach you and hope you learn something. Yeah, that's what we find now, that the very first stage of learning is really we need to change people's mindsets about what they can do and help them approach learning in a really positive way. And that goes on to change what they learn. So in that class at Stanford, I actually had just this week finished teaching 100 undergrads. And we've been learning calculus for a month together.

And so many of them, and these are some of the highest achieving students in the country, so many of them came in fearing maths and not believing in themselves. And when they struggled in the first days of class, they shut down and started to think, I can't do this, and they withdrew from the learning. A month later, they all wrote these amazing reflections about how they moved through that path, and they changed during the month, and how that set them up to learn in a totally different way. So I absolutely agree with you. We don't think about this in teaching enough. We just teach and hope that people have the right approach and the right mindset. And that isn't the most helpful thing to do.

So what do those students learn in that class that helps them know how to learn? So one of the things we know is that learning math is not about being speedy and about being fast. Many of them came in thinking, if I'm not fast, if I don't get this really quickly, then I'm never going to get it and I should just shut down. So they learned about the value of thinking deeply and part of that is also about thinking flexibly. So when we learn anything, it's really not about, can I just follow that one method? Can I remember that one method?

It's really about thinking in different ways about content. So that was one of the main things we taught them, that every time you see a math problem, there's probably five or six different ways you can approach that, all of them very productive. So thinking flexibly and creatively about content was definitely one of the messages and the teaching that we gave them. I wonder, for example, in school and in life as an adult, do people not like math because they think they're not very good at it, or are they not very good at it because they don't like math? Which is the cart and which is the horse there? I think there's a lot of the former going on. Once you have the myth that's in the culture, as we do in the U.S.,

that you're either a math person or you're not, as soon as kids struggle with math, they start to think, oh, I'm not a math person. I don't have a math brain. And so things start going downhill at that point. So definitely, I think that once people get the idea, I'm not good, coupled with this myth that really you're fixed and you're good or you're not, things start to go downhill. And there's a lot of that happening in math classrooms. I mean, we have a lot of evidence that when you change people's ideas

about the math person and people start to believe they can learn anything and those ideas they had held were incorrect, they find that suddenly they're learning maths really well. Certainly, you know, good teaching is a really important part of it, but those beliefs about what you can do that are going through your mind every second of every day through your life are hugely important. But don't you think that, beliefs aside, I mean, if you have two students, three students in your class, and they all put in the effort, they all go to class, they all do the homework,

somebody's going to get an A, somebody's going to get a B, somebody's going to get a C. And so they all did the work, but they didn't all do as well. Yeah, that will happen because kids are at a place, at very different places by the time you see them in classes. But what I would say is that giving kids an A, a B, or a C is in itself damaging. That's one of the things we really need to change in the education system because that gives kids those fixed messages. And they think, oh, I'm a B kid or I'm a C kid, and suddenly that will change what they do. So it's very important that those fixed messages are not part of our education system. But yes, kids are at different places. I'm not saying that everybody's the same, but what we find is when we approach classes of students with different messages, what you find is what you might expect from those kids is not what happens. And suddenly you see students who've previously been underachieving just blossom and

go to incredible places. So I think we have to let go of the idea that these kids are at a certain place and that's where they are and that's where they're going to be. My guest today is Jo Bowler. She is a professor of education at Stanford University and author of the book Limitless Mind, Learn, Lead, and live without barriers. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot.

Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI,

discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. So, Joe, when you say we have to let go of this idea of limits on what we can learn,

I think that's hard for people because, you know, all of us have a self-image. And at least part of that self-image is that we're really good at some things, and maybe not so good at other things. It's just part of who we are. So how are you going to believe you can learn something if you don't believe you're very good at it? Well, I think there's two parts to this. One is it's very of work with teachers. And for the teachers, we work on the mind and belief change. But then I give them maths experiences that are totally different for them. So they've gone through their lives experiencing maths in one way. And then they come to a workshop or whatever it is, and they experience maths very differently they start to see connections

they'd never seen before and things open up for them in totally different ways and so for me what's really important is the combination of those two things don't just give different messages to people but have them experience the content in their lives differently. And it's when those two things come together that change is really amplified. Mindset messages on their own can be very helpful. Changing content can be very helpful. But putting those two together is what is very powerful. How do you explain this to a child or explain it to yourself so that it works and it sits well with you. And what I mean by that is it almost sounds as if what you're saying is if you're having trouble, if you can't succeed learning something, that's your fault because you don't believe

in yourself. And it would seem like the last thing you need if you're struggling is to have a bunch of guilt heaped on you that the reason you're struggling is to have a bunch of guilt heaped on you that the reason you're struggling is your fault. Right. I totally get that. I mean, the whole mindset movement has taken off in schools and lots of people now are using the mindset words and saying, you haven't learned it yet and you just need to try harder.

And this is why our message has always been that you can't just give those words. You have to pair it with a change in teaching. And if you come to our website, which is called ucubes.org, or look at any of our materials, my new book or others, you'll see that I stress that. We have to change the teaching. In math, for example, if you say to students, you can learn anything and just believe in yourself,

but then you present math as a series of short questions with one answer, students see that content is very fixed, and so that message falls flat. And it is a kind of blame game, you know, just believe in yourself, but now I'm going to teach in this really fixed way. So it is really important that teaching and the way people approach content changes. It's not just about those belief messages, it's belief messages combined with a different approach. Wait, wait, I want to go back to something you just said. How does a math problem have more than one answer?

Two and two is four, and that's pretty much it. Yeah, you could think of math like that, and I agree with you that 99% of the population thinks of math like that. But actually, any math problem has many different ways of thinking about it. I mean, I can give you an example. I could ask you to find the area of an eight by three rectangle, for example. So it's eight long, it's three wide, find the area. And that's a calculation and there's one answer to it. Or I can say to students, think about rectangles with an area of 24. What would those rectangles look like and represent those rectangles?

So suddenly, it's really the same mathematics that students are thinking about that calculation, but they're thinking about it visually. And they're thinking about the relationship between length and width and the different ways that you can make 24. So this suddenly changes for kids. I ask them 8 times 3, or I say, how many different ways can you find a rectangle with an area of 24? That second question, kids light up.

How many different ways? This is a really interesting challenge. And they're thinking about the visual aspect of mathematics, which it turns out is really important. That can work with anything. Another one I like to think about is a number problem, as you just said. So for example, I can take a question like 18 times 5 and ask you to calculate the answer. So the answer to that question is 90, but there are many different ways of getting to that answer. Some people think, well, I'm not going to work out 18 times 5

because those are complicated numbers. Instead, I'm going to work out 9 times 10. That actually gives you the same answer. Or some people think, I'm not going to work out 18 times 5, I'm going to think about 20 times 5, and then take off two of the 5s. Some people think, I think I'm going to work out 10 times 5, and then 8 times 5.

So even with a number calculation, there are multiple different methods, different visual ways of thinking, and that's the approach that we're bringing to mathematics and really to all content. I want you to talk about fingers because every time in every class that I ever remember going to school, I was told, don't use your fingers.

And yet you have examples of how using your fingers, how fingers really help in math. And in fact if I were to ask you to work on a hard math problem right now, an area of your brain would light up that's actually seeing fingers. And how well college students know their fingers predicts their scores on calculation tests. What do you mean how well they know their fingers?s their scores on calculation tests. So they have... What do you mean, how well they know their fingers? What does that mean? Yeah, it's a good question.

What neuroscientists have identified as finger perception, the test for finger perception is to hide your hand under a book or a table and have somebody touch your fingers at different places on your fingers. And people who can identify which finger is being touched have good finger perception. If you try this with young children, you'll see that they're only beginning to identify their fingers if they can't see them. Adults usually have pretty good finger perception, but the people who have the best finger perception are musicians, because they've done a lot of work for their fingers, usually.

So it turns out that finger perception predicts how well you do in maths. It's pretty interesting. I worked with a neuroscientist at Stanford, and we wrote up a paper in The Atlantic, actually, about how important it is to use your fingers in maths. You probably know that schools, parents, many people dissuade people from using their fingers. I know. I remember in school saying, okay, don't use your finger. I always use my finger. I have to use my fingers or we're not going to get the answer. Yeah, and it's good. I mean, when we stop kids using their fingers when they're learning, that's like halting their mathematical development.

It's so important. One of the other things that caught my eye that I know you talk about is how failure and mistakes and struggle are really important in learning, which I don't think most people know about. Yeah, that's one of the other really interesting findings from neuroscience, that when we're struggling, our brains are most active. It's the most productive time for our learning. What the neuroscientists will tell you is sitting getting work correct is not a very good brain workout. What we want to be doing is struggling and making mistakes. That's one of our messages to teachers. Have work that will really cause students to struggle, but you really need to do that in an environment that's very supportive, where they know that struggle is a good thing. Right, because it's very discouraging when you fail, and then you say,

screw it, and you don't do it anymore. That's right. And what we've found is when we've taught kids, it's really great to struggle and mistakes are wonderful. It changes them completely in the classroom. They become much freer, much more willing to try. They don't give up when they're struggling. When I actually teach younger children and they're struggling and they look at me and they say, this is so hard. I say to them, this is the best moment for your brain. It feels hard. That's the feeling of your brain growing.

And this is fantastic. This is a place to be in your learning. That's such a great message. If you can get people to really believe that struggle and mistakes and failure are a good thing, it kind of lifts this weight off your shoulders, that the fact that you're struggling are a good thing, it kind of lifts this weight off your shoulders, that the fact that you're struggling is a good thing, it kind of makes it okay. And so many people talk about that.

A lot of the people I interviewed said, my life has changed because I don't go into meetings now afraid that I don't know something. I go into meetings thinking, it's okay if I don't know something, and I'll just learn it later. So it is, as you say, it's like a big weight off people's shoulders. And that's one of the ways adults say that they're really changed when they have that information.

Wow. Well, just, you know, think about the message you've just expressed in the last 20 minutes or so. It's okay to use your fingers. Failing is fine. And if you want to learn something, you can learn it. Don't let your beliefs get in the way. That's a pretty good message. Yep, I agree. And that's why I wrote this book.

I just think, you know, we have to get this information out to people. So many people give up when they experience their first challenge and get the idea that they're not good enough. And really the evidence we have all points in the opposite direction. Embrace those times of struggle and challenge and feel positively about yourself and things will change. Well, this has been fun and it's such a great message. I'm really glad you shared it with us. Jo Bowler has been my guest.

She is a professor of education at Stanford University, and her book is called Limitless Mind, Learn, Lead, and Live Without Barriers. And you will find a link to her book in the show notes. Thanks, Jo. I enjoyed it. Oh, good. Thank you. Do you love Disney?

Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts for Don't Blame Me,

But Am I Wrong? Each week we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday.

We humans are social creatures. We need the company of others. We need people. And some of the people in our lives we become attached to. And what's interesting about human attachment is it's more than people think. When you think of a couple, for example, you think, well, they're attached. And you're using the word conveniently to describe two people who are close. They're attached.

But attachment is more than just being close. Attachment's a real thing. People get truly emotionally attached in ways that are really interesting. And there are different styles of attachment. He is a psychiatrist and neuroscientist and author of the book, Attached, the new science of adult attachment and how it can help you find and keep love. Hi, Amir. Hi, happy to be here. So explain attachment the way you see it from a more scientific point of view. What is it? Oh, so it actually has a very specific meaning.

And it means that it's someone that you choose out from the crowd, you make them special and important to you. But it's not as simple as we think, because it also means that if that person is not available, if we feel that there's a threat to the person or there's a threat to the relationship or their closeness or their availability, really, we will become activated and that will engage in protest behavior to try to make them available to us. So give me an example of how that would work. We all have this surveillance system in our brain, and we all have an idea of where our loved ones are at any given moment. But if I were to tell you that, I don't know, a terrible tsunami or an earthquake or some catastrophe happened in a place where your loved ones are what your loved

one is, you wouldn't be able to continue this interview. You'll have to sort of like stop everything and call them or try to sort of re-establish the connection with them to make sure that they're okay. So we all have that in our brain all the time. So that's one example. And this attachment that humans have with someone special, is it in other animals too? Is it just humans? Oh yeah, it's very, very common in all animals.

I mean, you can see it even in our pets. You can see it in our dogs. Our dogs get very attached to us. And they also have what we have, which I call an attachment hierarchy. It's very clear who's number one, and then there's number two and number three, and if something bad happens to them, so that's the other part of attachment. The person that we get attached to gets designated. So if something bad happens to us, we go to this person or a list of people to seek solace. And I'm sure you, if you thought about it, you had an idea in your head that if you got bad news, who would be the

first person you're going to call? Are we attached to people just because we're around them, or are we attached to people because of love, or what's the thing that connects us? When we get attached to someone, both to our children and to our partners, it's actually a molecular process that happens in the brain and gives them that particular role of being so special and unique in the sense that then our physiological and psychological well-being becomes intertwined with them and dependent on them. For example, there were studies that showed that if we get a wound and if we're in a good relationship, the wound will heal faster. But if we get a wound and we're not in such a good relationship, it will take longer to heal.

So that's how our attachment and the closeness to someone would affect us on the most physiological level. It can affect also how we sleep at night, our blood pressure, our heart rate. We're that intertwined. We become one physiological unit with someone else. Well, sure, because I imagine if you're attached to someone and they get bad news, you feel bad too, even though it's not your bad news. It even goes deeper than that.

So if, let's say, you're in a relationship and your partner gets upset, you will also get upset. Even if they're upset with you or not with you, it's just like we're so connected. And sometimes, oftentimes actually, couples that come to see me for counseling, for therapy, I have to teach them that, that the fact that the other person is upset, that you would also feel the ricochets from that, and to know how to hold off and to be there for the other person, rather than both of you getting upset at the same time. So this idea of attachment is interesting and goes deeper, I think, than many people realize. But now what do we do with this? Now that we know this, what's the payoff here?

So the other part of this, and I think it's very important, is that we don't all attach in the same way and that we have different attachment styles. It means that there's a variability on the theme of how comfortable we feel with intimacy and closeness. That's one aspect of the attachment styles. The other aspect is how much of a sensitive radar do we have for a potential threat in a relationship. If we love intimacy and closeness, but we also have a very, very sensitive radar,

so we're easily, you can easily identify threat in a relationship, then I would say that we have the research has found that basically made the terminology that we have an anxious attachment style. So there's anxious, avoidant, and secure. And if we love intimacy and closeness, but we don't have a sensitive radar, a lot of stuff that can potentially be a threat to their relationship just goes over our head, then we have more of a secure attachment style. And the last attachment style is the avoidant attachment style. And that's when people also

want, they also get attached and they also identify other people as special and unique, but they don't feel too comfortable with too much closeness. So they do little things, which the field calls deactivating strategies. They use deactivating strategies to minimize closeness in their relationship. So if you think about it, there's

two particular attachment styles that kind of like don't get along with each other and it's a recipe for a lot of stress and potential fighting in the relationship. And so how do those different styles mix and match? Are you better off with one style than the other? How do they all intermingle? So the two attachment styles that really don't get along oftentimes is the anxious and the avoidant. Because one is very sensitive to potential threat, but loves intimacy and closeness and just wants to be really, really close. And the other doesn't really want to be that close, doesn't feel comfortable with that much closeness, but also instills a lot of threat in their relationship by doing deactivating strategies. But the good news

is, and that's what I didn't tell you, is the best person to attach yourself to is to someone who's secure. Even if you have an insecure working model or an insecure attachment style, people with a secure attachment style are like, they're like blood type O of the relationship world. They go along really well with everyone and they will actually oftentimes make you more secure if you're not secure, because it's like having a built-in relationship coach into your relationship. So is the population equally split between those three attachment styles, or are we more likely to be one or the other, or what? The vast majority of people have a secure attachment style. About 54% of the population are secure. About 25% are avoidant and about 20%

are anxious. So this is really good news. It means that many, many, many of us, the vast majority of us will be really good in relationships. That's why it's also more plausible for people who are dating to be searching for someone secure if you're insecure. And when two people meet, two different attachment styles or the same attachment style come together, how do they come together? How do they blend and mesh and all of that? So the way that it works is like this. We usually have a pretty good sense of a personal boundary and we don't let people in so

easily, right? So if I came up and stood really up close to you in your face, you'd be like, whoa, push me away. So in order for those boundaries to fall down over time, we need to let people in so we can get attached to them. They need to get closer to us. And so usually if we feel comfortable enough to let them be around us for a long time, that usually means that we've developed some sort of attachment to them. But if we have an avoidant attachment style, we're going to fight it all the way through

and try to minimize the closeness and try to say, no, I don't want to identify this as a real relationship. I don't know if I can tell you that I love you or you say I love you and you take it away. It's just you squirm from any idea of making things more legitimate or more real because you just feel so threatening. But it doesn't mean that you're not attached because you are still, when the person tries to go away, you find ways of trying to re-engage with them and keep them around. So that's where it becomes a little bit more complicated when it looks like, what do you

want from this person? He said he doesn't want any real relationship or close relationship. But the fact of the matter is that they end up sending mixed messages. How do you use this information about attachment and attachment styles? How do you use it to either find someone or to better relate to the person in your life? How do you do that? You have to, first of all, identify your own attachment style and then also learn to identify the other person's attachment style. And you can learn to do it pretty quickly. And we even have a quiz on our website, which is attachthebook.com. There's a quiz that helps you identify your attachment styles, your partner's attachment style.

And that's crucial because if you know that you have an avoidant or an anxious attachment style, you would want to be with someone secure. And then when you go out on dates, you have to make certain interventions. You have to really understand what your needs are in a relationship and learn and feel comfortable to convey them. So let's say if you have an anxious attachment style, you can say, you know, I really love a lot of closeness. But for me, it's very important that the person would be responsive. I don't like it when people just disappear for all days and not respond back. It doesn't really, that's not what I'm looking for. So it's not that you're saying that this particular person, you expect it from them. You throw it out there into the world. It's not that, oh, I'm in love

with you and I want to be with you forever. You say it from the very first few dates so that people know what your expectations are. So that's for the anxious. For the avoidant, I would go, I would say, you know, I need to take my time. And sometimes when I get close, I feel a little bit uncomfortable. Almost, I can sometimes feel suffocating. So I need people to give me my space. And it's not personal. And it's not that I really like, and it's not that I don't like the person. I just said I need more space and more time. And you're suggesting people tell people this right up front? Yes, because otherwise, how would you know? How would the other person know what you need?

And how would you know if the person that you're meeting can give you what you need? That's certainly true, but it seems like you're rushing the dance a little bit. I think it's crucial to rush the dance because I think it's crucial to rush the dance because I don't actually think that we have a lot of time. There's a huge biological force at play here that can really cement the deal with someone that's not ideally suited for you. And then what do you do? It's not that easy to undo an attachment. It takes a really long time. It's not that easy to leave someone. Can you change attachment styles or are you pretty much set in your ways?

So the good news, and that's why I love this field so much and I chose to specialize in it, is that we do and we change our attachment style. And I think there was one study that showed that in a four-year period, 25% of people can change their attachment style. Because what an attachment style is, it's like a working model. It's a set of beliefs and expectations. And usually, we tend to have a bias to notice what we would expect. But if you present someone with something different, you can revise that working model and revise the expectations

and beliefs to some extent. And that's where you can change the attachment styles. And that's why I love this field so much as a therapist, because you can help people navigate relationships differently and help them date differently and then find people all of a sudden that are very nourishing and supportive and loving. And that really changes things at the core. You can really heal old wounds, even from childhood, just by going through and doing things differently in the here and now. Lastly, where do we get our attachment style from?

Is it just fairly random, or is it typically the way your parents did it? Why do you get one of those three, and which one? So that's the million-dollar question. People now believe that there are some genetic predispositions that make us either more sensitive or less sensitive to certain threats. And then there's the environment of how we were parented. But also not only that, our relationships when we were teenagers, when you form new attachments to peers,

our first few relationships as adults with significant others, they're very powerful in restructuring how we view ourselves in the world. We're a highly, highly social species, and we constantly are surveying and checking our expectations and beliefs. Most of the time, we ignore things that are not aligned with our expectations and beliefs. Most of the time, we ignore things that are not aligned with our expectations and beliefs and try to sort of focus on the things that reaffirm our beliefs, but we do have the possibility to see things differently, and that's when change occurs. And that's the beauty of doing attachment-related therapy, because you just show people, it's like, well, yes, I can see that you

would see things this way, but you've ignored all these other things. And if you look at them, maybe you can come to a different conclusion. And then you see change happen. And it's really nice. Well, it's like a different lens to look at relationships through. And it gives you kind of a deeper understanding of how people relate to each other and and how they attach to each other amir levine has been my guest he is a neuroscientist he is a psychiatrist and he is author of the book attached the new science of adult attachment and how it can help you find and keep love there's a link to his book in the show notes, and he also mentioned that website where he's got a quiz, an attachment quiz, attachthebook.com. That link is also in the show notes as well.

Thanks, Amir. Thanks for being here. Oh, thank you very much. If you occasionally find that you like to overspend when you go shopping, you might want to slip into some high heels for your next shopping trip. A study from Brigham Young University found that consumers make better choices and buy less when shopping in high heels. The researchers contend that footwear with high heels heightens our sense of balance along with our comparison shopping skills.

Shoppers in high heels took their time, were more likely to consider their options, and less likely to overspend. And that is something you should know. If you're not yet a subscriber to this podcast, why not? It's easy to do and it's free. Wherever you listen, whether that's Apple Podcast, CastBox, Spotify, wherever, you can subscribe. There's a subscription button and that way the shows, when they come out, they're sent directly to your phone or wherever you listen. And that's the podcast today. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks for listening to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. I'm Mike Carruthers. Thanks suspects connections to a powerful religious group.

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