Something You Should Know - How Flaws in Your Brain Make You a Better Person & Is Personal Privacy Dead?

Episode Date: April 8, 2021

With public restrooms, there is a definite YUCK factor. Still, when it comes to choosing which stall or urinal to use, there is a smart strategy to minimize your exposure to germs and bacteria. I begin this episode by telling you which stall should be your first (and second) choice. https://www.womansday.com/health-fitness/wellness/a58568/cleanest-bathroom-stall/ As amazing as your brain is - it does a lot of things poorly. Our memories get distorted, your brain makes mistakes and misjudgments- in short there are plenty of things your brain does not do well. It turns out those flaws are actually a good thing according to Henning Beck, a neuroscientist and author of the book Scatterbrain: How the Mind’s Mistakes Make Humans Creative, Innovative and Successful (https://amzn.to/31EemMJ). Listen as he describes how these flaws really work in your favor to make your life better, even though it is sometimes hard to see.  The Internet can make your life easier and more convenient, but you do pay a price for that. That price is your privacy according to Firmin DeBrabander, professor of philosophy at the Maryland Institute College of Art.and author of the book Life After Privacy (https://amzn.to/3fzlORx). Firmin joins me to explain what the potential dangers are of this loss of privacy and why so many people are gladly willing to pay the price anyway. Ever wonder why most pencils have six sides instead of being round? A lot of people believe it is so the pencil doesn’t roll off the table. Well, not really although that is a nice side benefit. Listen as I explain the real reason why pencils are the way they are. Source: Douglas B. Smith author of “Ever Wonder Why?” https://amzn.to/2OcdGuU PLEASE SUPPORT OUR SPONSORS! We really enjoy The Jordan Harbinger Show and we think you will as well! There’s just SO much here. Check out https://jordanharbinger.com/start for some episode recommendations, OR search for The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts.  With Grove, making the switch to natural products has never been easier! Go to https://grove.co/SOMETHING and choose a free gift with your 1st order of $30 or more! Discover matches all the cash back you earn on your credit card at the end of your first year automatically and is accepted at 99% of places in the U.S. that take credit cards! Learn more at https://discover.com/yes Over the last 6 years, donations made at Walgreens in support of Red Nose Day have helped positively impact over 25 million kids. You can join in helping to change the lives of kids facing poverty. To help Walgreens support even more kids, donate today at checkout or at https://Walgreens.com/RedNoseDay. Download Best Fiends FREE today on the Apple App Store or Google Play. https://bestfiends.com https://www.geico.com Bundle your policies and save! It's Geico easy! If the signals are on, the train is on its way. And you...just need to remember one thing...Stop. Trains can’t! Paid for by NHTSA  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You can now make the first move or not. With opening moves, you simply choose a question to be automatically sent to your matches. Then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Today on Something You Should Know, a smart strategy for the next time you use a public bathroom. Then your brain has a lot of flaws. It makes mistakes, it distorts memory, and it always wants more. So you're never satisfied or fully grateful. I mean, we know from lab studies that the brain is constantly

seeking for something better, even if you are in a very pleasant and happy situation. And this is the reason why we have progress, why we are inventing new stuff, why we are improving. Then, why most pencils aren't round. Instead, they have six sides. And we're all being watched online. And many of us just don't care. In one respect, this kind of surveillance is so remarkable because it is so neatly packaged with convenience. I mean, why are people so willing to share and expose themselves online? Because of the amazing conveniences afforded by digital technology. All this today on Something You Should Know.

People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology.

That's pretty cool. And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson, discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Something you should know.

Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers. Hello there. Welcome to Something You Should Know. I think we can all agree that there aren't a lot of real good things about a pandemic. But one bright spot, and I'm always looking for the bright spot. One bright spot is that on those occasions when you are out in public and you have to use a public restroom,

I find that they tend to be a lot cleaner than they used to be. Probably in large part because fewer people are using them and using them less often. And secondly, the people charged with keeping them clean are probably keeping them cleaner because of the pandemic. Still, the prospect of using a public restroom is never enticing. And so here's some advice the next time you do have to use a public restroom and you need to choose which stall to go in. Head for the first stall, the one closest to the bathroom door.

That should be your first choice. And your second choice should be the one farthest from the bathroom door. Those are the ones with the lowest levels of bacteria and likely the most toilet paper. A study of random public restrooms revealed that the first stall was the least used, which resulted in fewer germs and a better supply of toilet paper. This may be because people think that everybody uses the first stall, so nobody uses the first stall. They go to the middle stalls.

And that's probably why the one farthest from the door is the second least used because people think, other people use the one farthest from the door, so I won't use that one. So people don't use that one. And here's another tip when you're in a public restroom. When you flush, stand back. There's a fine mist of water containing potentially contagious bacteria that sprays up when you flush.

And it's not likely, but you could catch you-never-know from that. And that is something you should know. The human brain is pretty amazing. We all know that. We've talked about how wonderful the brain is on this podcast several times. Still, as amazing as it is, the human brain is really not very good at some things. It's easily distracted. It doesn't keep track of time very well. It doesn't do well under pressure. It makes mistakes. It makes miscalculations and misjudgments. And all these things might appear to be deficiencies. Compared

to a computer, the human brain seems to have a lot of flaws. Yet maybe, maybe those flaws are exactly what makes the brain so good. That's the argument of Henning Beck. He is a neuroscientist and author of the book Scatterbrain, How the Mind's Mistakes Make Humans Creative, Innovative, and Successful. Hey Henning, welcome. Hi, great to meet you. So explain how you think the brain's flaws make it so good. I remember I had one teacher when I was like 16, 17 years old and he told me, Henning, if we would be perfect, there would be no room

for creativity, right? Because creativity is not about perfection. Creativity and doing new stuff, science basically, is coming up with off-site ideas without knowing whether it's correct or not. And actually, it's the mistake in our thinking, the clever mistake that we do that separates us from the non-creative machines. Machines don't do any mistakes, but we do. So we are creative. So give me an example of what that means. Like what's a mistake that would then turn into something wonderful? One thing is everybody is complaining about distraction.

Everybody wants to be focused and in the zone during work. But in fact, if you are distracted, then you are open-minded for new stuff. Consider the alternative. If you would not be distracted throughout your life, you would never see offside ideas. You would never get inspiration. And it's interesting that the most creative people are the ones who get distracted most easily. And distraction, of course, sometimes you want to get focused, but usually distraction is a way the brain uses to get to better ideas. So these things that we call flaws, you know, the brain doesn't remember things well, it makes mistakes and misjudgments. Are they really flaws or are they serving a real purpose? I mean, I wonder why we call them flaws or mistakes.

Because we live in a world where we require people to work like machines. And we say that to people. We say to people, work efficiently, work focused, don't get distracted, don't make any mistakes, head down and deliver, right? But this is not that we are good at. We are good at thinking out of the box, talking to each other, trying something without knowing before whether it's going to work or not. And this is really what pushes human mankind forward. This is what we call progress.

Give it a try, give it a shot and see whether it's going to fly or not. And the way our brain is, is working is right on that specific mental capacity, because we are not, we are not perfect, but we are, but we are trying and we are learning. And this is way better than working perfectly. When we learn growing up, you know, we often hear kids say, and I used to say, why are we learning this? I never ever will use this again in my entire life. There's no point to this. And the answer is often, well, you're learning critical thinking, you're learning how

to solve problems, you may not need to solve this problem ever again. But is that a valid argument? No. I mean, every learning session has to start with the question why or what for. We are here to do something because this helps you to do this and that. And the best teachers I had did this. They stepped in front of the class and said, hey, guys, I'm here to tell you how to. And then we were all like, oh, this is interesting. And he asked us questions. How would you approach that kind of problem? And he let us try and he let us fail and he let us stand up again. And this is really what learning and understanding finally is all about. Well, learning only seems to be valuable in many cases, like when you learn a language, only if you use it. If you don't use it, you can learn it, but then you forget it.

When I was in California, some of my friends were from Spain, and the Spanish are always talking, and those were the ones who learned the language the fastest way because they always tried, they failed, they got feedback constantly, they put it in action. And this is how you basically improve yourself, not by learning everything by heart. Yeah, well, the language example is a good one because most people who have ever done it know that the best way to learn a language is just immerse yourself in a culture where that's the language of course if you want to learn spanish get a spanish girlfriend or boyfriend i mean then you are totally in the culture and you have a purpose to learn that language and this is this

is the most important thing right give people a purpose to do something because otherwise there is no need to do something right why would Why would you learn a language when you know that you will never use it? So give a purpose, ask the what for and why questions at the beginning, and then people will learn it very easily. Talk about the flaw of the brain that allows us and sometimes forces us to choke under pressure. This is an interesting one. When you are under pressure, something interesting happens. There are a lot of different possibilities that you could do. For example, if you do a penalty kick, there are many possibilities how to behave. You can miss the

kick or you can score or there are so many different possibilities how to move, how to behave. And all these different possibilities are constantly running in your head. And under pressure, all the filter mechanisms that usually sort out all the behaviors or actions that are inaccurate are not working properly. And sometimes a false action or an error occurs because these filter mechanisms are overloaded and they're not working anymore. And this is the reason why people, even pros, do mistakes. Even the most simple task can break down or the behavior can break down if you are under stress because all these brain functions are imbalanced suddenly. But not everybody crumbles under pressure.

Some people seem to do okay. So what's the difference? Some people train. They train how to cope with pressure. There is one training procedure called prognosis training that you put people in a secure environment, in a training situation, under stress. And they learn how to cope with that stressful situation in that training situation. And, for instance, when you have stage fright and you are afraid of giving talks and presentations,

then you could say, okay, you only have one shot to do that presentation in this training session. If you do a mistake, you have to find a way to deal with it. And so you put a lot of pressure in that training situation and people learn how to deal with that stress. Another possibility is reframing. This is what a lot of professional athletes do. If they are in a stressful situation they reframe or in simply put they rename the situation they don't say oh i'm under stress and this is this is now i'm going to break down and such they say okay this is a stressful situation my body is now ready for action i have trained that i have the capabilities and the stressful situation, my heartbeat goes up and I get sweaty

hands, is only a sign that I'm ready for performance. And if you relabel that situation, the stress will not cause that blackout, but will really improve your performance. Talk about time and that we misjudge it. I always thought it was just me that misjudges it, but everybody misjudges it. Some may be better than others, but how does that play into this? Well, yeah, time doesn't grow on trees. I mean, time is nothing that we find in nature. Time is something we have made up made up especially how to measure time hours and seconds this is this is nothing we find in nature so the brain does not calculate or collect numbers like seconds or hours or days we don't have a sense for time

we only have a sense for events for for what happened in our past. So what the brain does, it has something like a mental timeline and all the events in your life are put on this timeline. And if you have a lot of different and very exciting events and stuff that happened in your past, it really gets a lot of place on that mental timeline. So it feels like your life is very long because you have experienced so many things. On the opposite, if everything is the same, if you are living your daily routine from day to day, from week to week, there is nothing special to remember. And there are no highlights on your timeline. And retrospectively, everything gets shorter and shorter. And this is why mainly older people say that time seems to fly because you don't have so many new events.

Like if you are three or four or five years old, everything is so, so new, so exciting. And this is the reason why we remember our childhood or our, yeah, from year 10 to 20 is very vivid and very long compared to the period between let's say 50 and 60 well and certainly everybody's been having that sense lately where we've been all locked down and everything is every day is the same we're just stuck at home and and and in one way time seems to fly but in another in another way, because we're so locked down, it seems to drag on forever. Exactly. And everything that is very boring at this very moment, retrospectively, it seems very fast. But in this very moment, it seems like to last forever.

And you might ask, what is the advantage of this behavior, of this procedure in the brain? But interestingly, because we are able to collect events and highlights in our life, we are able to create new ideas and new thoughts because we can replay events, We can play forward. We can play it faster retrospectively. So it's not a fixed memory. It's not like we are storing events like on a hard disk drive, but we are collecting events and memories in a more dynamic way. And it can be wrong. It can be distorted. It can be elongated or shortened.

But on the other hand, this gives you a great flexibility of putting all these events and highlights of your life together to a whole concept, to new ideas, or whatever new ideas you want to have. We're talking about the flaws in the human brain, your brain. And we're talking with Henning Beck, a neuroscientist and author of the book, Scatterbrain, How the Mind's Mistakes Make Humans Creative, Innovative, and Successful. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a co-founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so excited to introduce a brand new show to our network

called The Search for the Silver Lightning, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. During her journey, Isla meets new friends, including King Arthur and his Knights of the Round Table, and learns valuable life lessons with every quest, sword fight, and dragon ride. Positive and uplifting stories remind us all about the importance of kindness, friendship, honesty, and positivity. Join me and an all-star cast of actors, including Liam Neeson, Emily Blunt, Kristen Bell, Chris Hemsworth, among many others, in welcoming the Search for the Silver Lining podcast

to the Go Kid Go Network by listening today. Look for the Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast. And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited

and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes. Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed, critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Henning, what would be the advantage? What would be the purpose of the brain not remembering things accurately?

Which it clearly doesn't. But yet, you know, I remember things from my childhood that I can go back and double check, and I'm right that, you know, the house was that color, you know, everything about the memory is correct, but a lot of memories I can go back and check, and they're not correct. I've completely distorted that memory. Yeah. Consider the alternative.

If you would remember everything accurately and very precisely, it would be your, your memories would not be very dynamic. This would mean that you are not able to redesign your thoughts and ideas because we know if the more you remember, and the more accurately you remember stuff, and the longer it takes to recall that memories, the less dynamic and creative people are. And it seems like that there must be some kind of price you have to pay to have that creativity potential and the ability to put

memories and ideas together in a new way. Yes, of course, sometimes memories are false. But on the other hand, this gives you that flexibility. And studies show that the better your memory is and the more you remember, the less adaptive the system becomes. Another flaw or seemingly a flaw in the human brain, and it's one that's kind of a pet peeve of mine, is when people are faced with a lot of choices like on a menu and they just cannot decide, oh my god, I could have the chicken, or well, but then that fish looks really good, and given lots of choices, the human brain has trouble deciding. Yeah, this is what we call the over-choice effect, meaning that we are very bad at choosing from many options.

One reason for this is, if you pick one option, you see what you're not picking. You see all the alternatives. And then people are sometimes regretting what they have chosen because they see what they could have chosen as well. This is one reason that people are overthinking the situation. And the second reason for being in that trouble is that the brain is not very good at calculating all the different possibilities. This is very laborious. I mean, consider thinking about all the different possibilities on a menu. This would take forever. And sometimes the brain says, okay, stop it. I'm not picking any option. And this is why people are in trouble if they have so many possibilities. Is there some advice for people like that, to short circuit that? I'm not picking any option. And this is why people are in trouble if they have so many possibilities.

Is there some advice for people like that, to short circuit that? Roll a dice or toss a coin. And in the very moment you roll the dice, you have a feeling what number should not appear. Because usually you have already made the decision subconsciously. You only have to realize it. Ooh. Well, that sounds very mysterious. Yeah, but there is a lot of research about intuition and about how the brain makes decisions actually. Usually the brain has already picked an option before you know it, you know it consciously.

And you only have to put some stress on that situation. So, for instance, toss a coin or ask a friend. And then in this very moment, the decision you made appears. Yeah, that's right. Because when I've been out to dinner with people who do that struggle thing, well, I mean, like chicken looks good. The beef looks really nice. I say, well, get the chicken. And then all of a sudden, no, I think I'll have the fish. Like when you put the pressure on to somebody, then the true decision pops up. And something else I find interesting is that a lot of times these decisions that people

struggle with are the kinds of decisions that really in the big picture don't matter. Next week you won't even remember what you did order or didn't order, but in the moment it just it bogs down everything. Exactly. And this is showing another very interesting thing. Exactly. And this is showing another very interesting thing. The brain is very good at making general decisions. Let's say whether you want to marry someone. This is a very big decision, but it's not possible to calculate whether a marriage is successful, right? There is no number you can put on it. There is no KPI or anything you can score a marriage. No, but people do marry each other. But they are very bad at if you have so many different options to pick from, this is very hard. And this is showing that it's a difference between making a general decision and the decision processes in

the brain are very good at making decisions under uncertainty and picking an option. Yeah, well, I've heard that like in advertising, for example, that in a commercial, you tell people to either call a phone number or go to a website. They tend to do neither one rather than just tell them one thing and then they're more likely to do it. Yes, this is another example in marketing or selling. There are different techniques that you somehow nudge people to do something by giving them one or two or three options, but not more. Usually when you go to a shop and buy something,

there are usually three different options, one expensive one cheap one and one in the middle and people usually chose the one in the middle because this is this is probably the best guess I mean this is not extreme it's it's yeah it's it's not good it's not best but it's not the worst and this is a nice technique showing that the brain uses what we call heuristics, mental shortcuts in that situation where you seem to be overloaded by so many options. You only pick one or two. You nudge people by giving them only just a few options to pick from.

One of the seemingly big flaws of the human brain is that we're never satisfied. It seems that enough is never enough, that people always want more. The general default mode of our thinking is we are only happy if we get more than what we expected. And this is why we can be trapped so easily into risky behavior, because the brain is always longing for some extra, for some kick. And this might mean that under certain situations, we are not behaving very wisely, but very risky and very, in a way, aggressively seeking for a kick or for a rush.

And this is contradicting our general idea that we want to stay calm and choose wisely. So much of the advice today is, you know, be grateful for what you have. But that's not really how the brain works. The brain always wants something more. Exactly. And being grateful. I mean, this is great. This is cool.

I mean, if you want to be happy for a short period of time. But don't forget, all the great minds that changed the world, that invented something great, that pushed the human race forward, are the ones that are dissatisfied, that are not grateful. Those are the ones who have a problem, that are dissatisfied, that are annoyed. And they say, okay, here's a problem. Let's work on this. Let's get happy. It is not about being happy. It's about the pursuit of happiness. And this is something different. And for the brain, it is much greater and much more pleasant to try to be happy and be a bit happier than before than to stay happy because we cannot stay happy forever and we

cannot be grateful forever. I mean, we know that from lab studies that the brain is constantly seeking for something better, even if you are in a very pleasant and happy situation. And this is the reason why we have progress, why we are inventing new stuff, why we are improving, because consider the alternative. We would still be sitting in a cave in the stone age and wouldn't have invented so many great new things, right? That is so important and profound because how often do we hear, oh, you're never satisfied. Well, exactly. I'm human. That's what

humans are never satisfied. If you're satisfied, like you say say we'd still be living in caves yeah exactly satisfaction is boring i hate satisfaction i want to be dissatisfied in an optimistic way that let's say i have a problem i'm really annoyed i don't like it but then let's work on it let's make it better and let's improve and this is how all the great inventions and how all the progress in human in human mankind has ever been made and will be made in the future look at all the great inventions and how all the progress in human in human mankind has ever been made and will be made in the future look at all the geniuses in history no one of them was was satisfied and grateful right well what i like about this topic is we so often talk about the brain's flaws in the negative that you know that we make mistakes that we don't remember things

well that we're never satisfied and that these are these are problems that we make mistakes, that we don't remember things well, that we're never satisfied, and that these are problems that we need to correct. But in fact, as you point out, these so-called deficiencies in the brain actually propel us in other ways, and it's really interesting to look at that. Henning Beck has been my guest. He is a neuroscientist, and the name of his book is Scatterbrain, How the Mind's Mistakes Make Humans Creative, Innovative, and Successful. And there's a link to that book in the show notes. Thank you, Henning.

Of course. Thanks. It's been a pleasure. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice.

Then we have But Am I Wrong?, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice. Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong? And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Do you love Disney? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial.

And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. There is nothing we don't cover. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed, but you definitely need in your life. So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts. Are you concerned about your privacy? A lot of people say they are. But still, people post a lot of private things on social media. And we give out information about ourselves on the Internet.

And some of us have smart speakers throughout the house where people could be listening to everything we're doing because those smart speakers have microphones in them. Still, we like our smart speakers. We like social media. We like doing things on the internet that require that we give up information about ourselves. Are we giving up too much information?

Or maybe people don't really care that much. Here to discuss this is Furman DeBraybander. He is a professor of philosophy at the Maryland Institute College of Art, and he is author of the book, Life After Privacy. Hi, Professor. Welcome to Something You Should Know. Hi. Thank you for having me. So what do you think is the concern here? I mean, people know that their privacy has been compromised. People go on social media and tell a lot about themselves. And yeah, I guess some

people are concerned about it, but it seems that for the most part, people don't care that much. What's your take on this? I've argued that, you know, it's pretty dire. If you look at survey the landscape of digital technology, it doesn't look good for our ability as citizens and consumers to protect our privacy. I have argued that we digital consumers are the most significant agent of this surveillance. Everybody talks about the Facebooks and the Amazons that are watching us, but we are happily signing up for this kind of surveillance. We are happily sharing everything about ourselves on social media. I'm always amazed when I go on social media and I see the kinds of sensitive and intimate data and information and details of lives that people are sharing online and their pictures, of course, that are

very, you know, they expose plenty. It looks to be nothing less than a rather profound social or cultural change in the last 10, 15 years where, you know, we are more willing to open ourselves up and less concerned about what is watching us or who is watching us and what we lose in the process. And what do we lose in the process? What's the concern? The concern is that we would actually lose our freedom. That's the ultimate concern. We would lose our autonomy because the traditional argument is that, or, you know, I'm a political philosopher, so I'm interested in what, you know,

what philosophers have said about this for many years. And what they say about surveillance, the danger of surveillance, is that as those who spy on you get to know more and more about you, then they can more easily press your buttons without you even realizing it and get you to do things that you do not willingly sign off on. Alternately, we have also seen throughout history that surveillance can be coercion itself, right? We saw this in the totalitarian regimes of the previous century, like in Stalinist Russia. Just being watched, just being exposed is a kind of threat in itself that curtails people's freedom, and it makes them far less willing to speak out or act out. So that would be the feared end that we would be traveling towards. So, but what has happened so far that causes alarm other than, you know, obviously if you're putting information on social media, anybody can see it, but do we know that anybody's doing evil

with it? But what's happened so far that makes this so worrisome? That is the million dollar question, what you just asked. And I would say, first off, that there's a generational divide when it comes to surveillance. Older generations are less comfortable with sharing their private data. That is not the case with younger generations. I've noticed this in my college students that I teach and also in my teenage kids. But the kind of surveillance that people talk about today is, you know, okay, so Amazon knows your shoe size. I mean, this is not like Stalin watching to see if you're up to subversive activity.

Amazon knows your shoe size. So where is the possible harm in that? There is not much. You know, we haven't really seen much yet evil that has come from digital surveillance. I mean, we have a history, we have lessons from history in the past that point out that regimes, that totalitarian regimes will turn to surveillance in order to coerce people. But as yet, it is unclear what kind of harm can come from the surveillance that Amazon and Target are doing. I put in Target because they have the famous case where they

were figuring out that their customers were in the second trimester of pregnancy. And when people object to that, they object by saying that that's creepy. That's how people often object to surveillance programs that they don't like. They call them creepy. And creepy is a great term here because it suggests that you feel something is wrong, but you can't say what. So the conclusion is really, we don't really know what the problem is. We don't really know what the threat is. It's all a matter of speculation. And the threat may not even be, I mean, if Amazon knows my shoe size, that could prove to be a good thing because if they have some extra shoes that in my size and they go on sale and they can tell me about it, well, great. Exactly. And this is why in one respect, this kind of surveillance is so remarkable and perhaps nefarious. I mean, if it is threatening in the end, this is why it would be so nefarious,

because it is so neatly packaged with convenience. I mean, why are people so willing to share and expose themselves online? Because of the amazing conveniences afforded by digital technology, right? So yes, Amazon, what do they do? The more they collect about us, the more they're able to offer us. And the more we interact with them, the more they know. The more they can reach us personally, the better service we will receive. And yes, more money companies will make, but we will be happy in the process. You know, we'll be better satisfied by these companies if they can pinpoint us directly and sell to us directly by knowledge that they have accrued from our digital interactions.

What do these big retailers and these big surveillance people, how do they respond to the concern? They respond in a variety of different ways. Apple has responded by touting all kinds of privacy protections that their products would offer. Facebook is interesting. Mark Zuckerberg has an interesting quote where he said, this is just a cultural change now that they're taking advantage of, right? That people are willing to share more. That kind of ignores the fact that Facebook has played a very significant role in changing the culture, in making us more apt to share.

Amazon doesn't speak out about it. I mean, in general, these companies are not terribly forthcoming about these products, these programs, I should say. So it's a varied landscape. because people are getting more and more concerned and there's more people like you, you know, shouting from the rooftops that this is a potential problem, you would think that Amazon and Target and these companies, Facebook, would be doing what they can to kind of, oh, not to worry, but they don't seem to say much of anything. Well, it's because their business plan is modeled, sorry, is dependent on this kind of sharing. I mean, they can't safeguards in place where, you know, we're not headed towards world domination here. We're just looking at your shoe sizes and things like that.

And it isn't stored in a place where it can, you know, they could do something to kind of ease people's apprehensions, but they don't. They could. They did that in Europe, but they didn't do it here, right? The privacy advocates in America would very much like those companies to do that in America. But those regulations, they've been not able, you know, the privacy advocates have not been able to persuade Congress to enact these regulations. I guess the tech law, you know, it's clearly the tech lobbies are very powerful. Just seems like bad PR to me. Like they would, you would think you would want to be proactive when there's a concern to make sure people know there's nothing, nothing here, nothing to look at, no, move on. Well, I think that's very telling, don't you? I mean, I agree with you, but if they

don't feel motivated to issue that PR statement, I think that suggests they know the state of privacy and the state of our concern. I mean, a lot of people, quite frankly, don't care about privacy, at least in America. Europeans, they have said they care about privacy. I think we have to wait and see if their actions, you know, speak louder than words. Now they have their privacy regulations enacted, but Americans, you know, they just do not reveal that they care terribly about it. So I think, you know, they'll, you know, if these companies feel the need to make these PR statements, I think they would. Because people could, if they're very concerned about privacy, they can be careful about what they put on social media or whatever.

But if you have an Alexa speaker in your house, you don't remember that it's there all the time. And you're just talking away. And obviously, somebody can hear you. Right. And nobody cares. No, no, no, they don't care. But I mean, this has been borne out by various polls, you know, that people, they just don't seem to be terribly worried about this kind of stuff. Soon after the Edward Snowden allegations about the NSA, the Pew Research Institute did a polling of people, you know, what do you, who are you worried about listening in? Or what kind of surveillance or what kind of spying are you worried about? The bottom was government. Next to the bottom was police. At the top was your friends.

You know, they were people were more concerned about friends and family chasing them down, following them, spying on them on social media. So people just are not really worried about certainly not Amazon. That tends to be of the nature of a kind of a pleasant spy that when they listen to you, oh, then they might go ahead and reveal a certain product you never dreamed of that you would like. Well, you started our discussion by saying you've looked at this and the situation is dire. It's pretty bad. Well, what does pretty bad mean? Well, what pretty bad means is you don't even have to be blabbing online for your spies to know about you, right? I took a good look at data collection and data analysis, and we

consumers are not well equipped to understand the sophisticated science, right? So the regulations in Europe, the privacy regulations are all premised on consumer autonomy, that companies will tell you what they're looking for and you can understand it and you can say, okay, I'll share with you or I'll not. I won't share with you. But what examples like the Target case reveal is that we have no idea a what our spies are looking for b what they do with that information you know we don't know we have no idea so the case of target for example was where they were determining when women were pregnant in the second

trimester no less so very specified and i routinely ask audiences say, so what kind of data do you think that they were collecting or that were the salient tip-offs? And people invariably have a very difficult time identifying the salient tip-offs. Those tip-offs are some collection. I mean, I'm talking about the target researchers. It was some collection of cotton balls, vitamins, and lotions. When women buy those in quick succession, that reveals that they are pregnant and in a certain stage of pregnancy. Now, looking at that in retrospect, that makes sense, but we can't be expected to pick up on that at the get-go, right? That is a highly strange and unexpected collection of products and purchases. Another example I like to give is that a Canadian retailer

said that determines creditworthiness on the basis of one, there's one purchase they determined that is especially predictable for creditworthiness. And that is if you buy felt pads to protect your furniture. Okay. Now, again, who is going to know this? How are we possibly able to understand what our spies could learn from us? Besides the fact that increasingly, they don't even need our data, our metadata will do, which is the data of our data, when and where and how we make emails and phone calls and the like. And we also know that Facebook has profiles of people even when they're not on social media, even if they are just invoked by members of social media.

But isn't this just kind of an academic exercise in the sense that the genie's out of the bottle? I mean, you can scream and yell and tell people, you know, the sky's falling, but nobody seems to care. And so, and life goes on. I mean, you can only do so much. Well, that's my position is the genie is out of the bottle, but the institution of privacy advocates are, they're not on board with that. They do not accept that conclusion. I agree with you. I think the genie's out of the bottle. And if COVID has pointed out anything to me, it's that our dependence on digital media is only going to grow deeper. And these digital media of their nature make our data vulnerable. So there's really no going backwards.

So it's just a matter of us understanding, again, what are the terms and ingredients of political freedom and democracy? And that's what we have to focus. That's what we have to turn to And that's what we have to focus. That's what we have to turn to. That's what we have to focus on. By doing what? By the key, in my view, is not the private sphere, it's the public sphere.

It is the public realm. It is how we act as citizens with one another. And the public realm, I argue, is in pretty bad shape too. You know,ban America has really hurt public spaces. Once upon a time, our cities and towns had these town squares, which were non-commercial of their nature, and they were designated for the public to convene and to act like a political entity. Nowadays, what is the public sphere of choice? Well, where I live in my suburb of Baltimore, that would be the mall. That's where people go to be public.

But the mall is not even a public space. It's actually a private space. And if you go in there trying to be political, they will escort you out. And then the other issue, of course, is that we kind of, you know, many of us like to think of, you know, the internet as a public space. But if anything that the Trump years have shown is that it is a very poor substitute for a public space, and it is really detrimental to democracy. Well, it's a pretty interesting topic that affects everybody because we're, I mean, I imagine there's still a few people who don't have much of an online presence, but the convenience and the pleasure that people get, it's very alluring. And so the story continues. We'll see where it goes.

Absolutely. And even for those people that are not information, that people have our information, and you've got to wonder what's going to happen to it. Furman DeBraybander has been my guest. He's a professor of philosophy at the Maryland Institute College of Art, and the name of his book is Life After Privacy. You'll find a link to his book in the show notes. You know, about 14 billion pencils are produced every year worldwide. Of course, pencil lead is not really lead. It's a mixture of graphite, clay, and water. It's called lead because the person who discovered it back in the 16th century believed he had found lead. Graphite is actually a type of carbon, and the word graphite comes from the Greek word meaning to write.

You might think that the reason pencils have, or most pencils have, six sides is to prevent them from rolling off the table. And while that's a nice benefit, it's actually not the primary reason. The primary reason is money. A round pencil would be comfortable to hold, but cost more to make. A square pencil would be cheap to make, but uncomfortable to hold. So the hexagon pencil is the compromise. You can make nine six-sided pencils out of the same wood

it would take to make eight round ones. Today, most people say they prefer the hexagon pencil, in part because it doesn't roll off the desk. And that is something you should know. I get so many nice emails from people who really enjoy the content of this podcast, and the fact that you've come to the end of this episode means you've listened all the way through, so you probably enjoy the content of this podcast, and I hope you will share it with someone else so they can do the same. I'm Micah Ruthers. Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know. Welcome to the small town of Chinook, where faith runs deep and secrets run deeper. In this new thriller, religion and crime collide when a gruesome murder rocks the isolated Montana community. Everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager, but local

deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Loro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. The pair form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions,

and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone is watching Ruth. Chinook, starring Kelly Marie Tran and Sanaa Lathan. Listen to Chinook wherever you get your podcasts. Contained herein are the heresies of Redolph Buntwine, erstwhile monk turned traveling medical investigator. Join me as I study the secrets of the divine plagues and uncover the blasphemous truth

that ours is not a loving God and we are not its favored children. The Heresies of Redolph Buntwine, wherever podcasts are available.