Something You Should Know - How Human Nature Screws Up Your Life (and How to Fix It) & The Trouble with Recycling

Episode Date: November 5, 2018

In most places around the world, Siri comes with a female voice by default. Of course you can change it but most people don’t. This is true for most other voiced-based computer programs. Why? We begin this episode with the fascinating reasons why most people prefer their devices sound female. http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/apps/a18018/why-is-siri-a-female-voice/ Human nature – it is a collection of things we humans tend to do by default. Robert Greene, author of the bestseller The Laws of Human Nature (https://amzn.to/2yQtqZy) takes you on a fascinating journey into why we do the things we do and why these tendencies we have often get in the way of our happiness and success. There are 18 laws of human nature and Robert will explain how to use them to your advantage and how to counter them when they work against you.  What could be simpler and more satisfying than a grilled cheese sandwich? Most of us have been eating them since we were kids. Actually though, there is some science and technique to making the perfect grilled cheese sandwich and a lot of it has to do with the cheese you select. Which is best? Listen and find out. http://www.businessinsider.com/science-making-grilled-cheese-2015-11 Household recycling has become habit for many people. We just do it because – well that’s what good citizens do. What you may not know is that there are a lot of problems with recycling. In fact a lot of what you recycle probably NEVER gets recycled. Instead it ends up in a landfill with all the other garbage. Beth Porter is an expert on the subject and she is author of the book Reduce, Reuse, Reimagine: Sorting Out the Recycling System (https://amzn.to/2JCkknD) . Beth joins me to reveal what’s wrong with recycling and what everyone can do to make the whole system work better and more efficiently. This Week's Sponsors Care/Of Vitamins. For 25% off your first month of personalized care/of vitamins go to www.TakeCareOf.com and use the promo code SOMETHING   Home Chef. Go to www.HomeChef.com/something to get $30 off your first order.  Madison Reed. For 10% off plus free shipping on your first order go to www.Madison-Reed.com/something Jet.com. For a great online shopping experience go to www.Jet.com  The Lodge at Woodloch. $50 resort credit off any 2-night stay at The Lodge at Woodloch when mentioning promo code SOMETHING by calling 800-966-3562, Option 2, then Option 1 for reservations. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Today on Something You Should Know, in most countries, Surrey has a female voice, and there are some interesting reasons why. Then the fascinating and irrefutable laws of human nature, for example, the law of fickleness. This fickleness is extremely dangerous because people are judging you by what you've done for them lately. Their loyalty to you is paper thin and it will turn on a dime. Plus how to make the perfect grilled cheese sandwich. And what you don't know about recycling will amaze you.

For example, you'll be surprised to learn where a lot of your recyclables actually go. So when people think, oh I'm recycling this, I'm recycling that, it's highly possible that some of their materials, a big chunk of them, are rerouted to a landfill because they've been recycled improperly, because it's coated in food, it's saturated with water, there's broken glass. All this today on Something You Should Know. As a listener to Something You Should Know, I can only assume that you are someone who likes to learn about new and interesting things and bring more knowledge to work for you in your everyday life. I mean, that's kind of what Something You Should Know was all about. And so I want to invite you to listen to another podcast called TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right?

Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks Daily. Now, you know about TED Talks, right? Many of the guests on Something You Should Know have done TED Talks. Well, you see, TED Talks Daily is a podcast that brings you a new TED Talk every weekday in less than 15 minutes. Join host Elise Hu. She goes beyond the headlines so you can hear about the big ideas shaping our future. Learn about things like sustainable fashion, embracing your entrepreneurial spirit, the future of robotics, and so much more.

Like I said, if you like this podcast, Something You Should Know, I'm pretty sure you're going to like TED Talks Daily. And you get TED Talks Daily wherever you get your podcasts. Something You should know. Fascinating intel. The world's top experts. And practical advice you can use in your life. Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

Hi, welcome. We just got the listenership numbers for October, and we hit just over 1,100,000 downloads for the month of October, which blew the doors off of September and is by far an all-time high for us as this podcast continues to grow. So thank you not only for listening, but if you're one of the many people who I know share this podcast with others, I know that because I hear from a lot of people who say they do, and if you're one of them, it's very much appreciated. First up today, if you have an iPhone and ask Siri what is her gender, she'll tell you she doesn't have one. She's just a computer program. But at least in the United States, her voice is definitely female.

And that's the case for virtually all digital assistants, GPS, and other voice-guided programs. All female voices. Why? Well, there are a lot of reasons. For one thing, studies have shown that people, especially women, prefer to hear a woman's voice. It may also be a preference from birth. Babies will pay attention to a female voice more than a male voice. History may also play a role. Since women were old-school telephone operators

and pilots were given instructions by female voices in the cockpit to distinguish instructions from the men operating the plane. And since the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey created HAL, male robot voices are generally considered kind of creepy. This preference seems to change from country to country. Siri has defaulted to a male voice in the UK and France.

And of course, you can change Siri to a male voice on your iPhone anytime you want. And that is something you should know. You and I and every other person have something in common. Our nature. Our human nature. We tend to think and act in certain ways as a species. And there may be parts of our human nature that may be great and some parts that may be not so great. But it is what it is, and so understanding and managing our human nature

and that of other people is really crucial to so many aspects of life. Robert Greene has studied human nature in a fascinating way. Robert wrote a big best-selling book a while back called The 48 Laws of Power, and he just released a new book called The Laws of Human Nature, which has already become a best-seller. Hey, Robert. Welcome. Well, thank you very much for having me, Mike. So, you have these laws of human nature, 18 of them in your book,

and we'll talk about several. But what in general is human nature as you see it? How do you define it? I maintain that we humans are wired a particular way. I mean, obviously, when we look at an animal, we see certain behavior patterns that are kind of clear. But I think we could say the same thing about humans. And if you look at our history and how we evolved over millions, hundreds of thousands of years, you can see things that are very much embedded in our nature that come from evolving as a social animal that wasn't very powerful or strong, not nearly as strong as a chimpanzee. And so we develop social skills and social powers in order to become powerful and protect ourselves.

And when we act in a certain way, we're often not conscious of what's really going on. I maintain that there are forces inside of us that compel certain kinds of behavior, and that is what I call human nature. So given your definition of what it is and how it works, take us on a journey into the specifics of how human nature shows up in our interactions and in our behavior and in our own actions. If you look at the people around you, your colleagues, your friends, your boss, your family, if you thought about it deeply, you would really, you would come to the conclusion that you really don't know what they're thinking, what's going on behind their smiles, behind their appearances.

And often people will surprise you with their behavior, or you will find that they're not listening to you, they're resistant to your influence. So you really don't have a clear sense of what's motivating them. And when you're operating in the dark in anything, and particularly in the dark in anything, and particularly in the social situation, all kinds of problems and misinterpretations can occur. So I'm trying to lay out as clearly as possible what motivates people, what really drives their behavior on a very deep level,

so you can begin to have some clarity about why people are not listening to you, why they're resistant, why there are suddenly toxic types of people who enter your life and surprise you, you didn't foresee their ugly behavior. And then you can also turn that light and illuminate yourself and look at yourself and see that you are also a bit of a slave to human nature. So what are these patterns, which I suspect are the laws of human nature that you describe? So what are some of the big ones? Well, the number one tendency, law number one, is that we're basically controlled by our emotions.

We don't think of it that way. We like to think that we're rational people who are in control of what we think and what we do. But really, as neuroscience has demonstrated, emotions are much more powerful, more primary. And our thinking was evolved much later than emotions. It is much weaker. And so probably the main tendency is that you are reacting with your emotions and that when you think something or you have a plan or a strategy for getting what you want, you're actually basing it on something often that is irrational. So that is a tendency that I want you to become aware of. And I define rationality very simply. It's being aware of the fact that emotions are governing you and that you are not necessarily in control of what you're thinking and what you're doing. And with that simple awareness, you can begin to operate more rationally.

You can compensate for your emotional tendencies. You can take a step back and say, am I wanting this job because it's the best position for me or am I wanting it for other reasons that aren't necessarily so productive or good? And the same thing with choosing a partner in life, etc. That's probably the number one tendency. The other tendencies, law number two, that we're basically very self-absorbed. We like to look at other people and say, oh, that person's a narcissist, that person's aggressive, that person is irrational or envious, and we never like to

admit it, that it's ourselves. And I try to say that we are all, by our nature, we humans are self-absorbed. And if you're aware of this tendency, you can begin to build what I call the opposite trait, which is empathy, where you learn to sort of get out of yourself and get inside other people, inside their motivations and what drives them. It doesn't mean that you love everybody around you. Some people are difficult and there's nothing you can really do about it. But by understanding even difficult or toxic people, you can begin to have some emotional distance

and you can think more clearly about how to respond to them. Yet with that knowledge, knowing that our emotions are driving much of our thinking and behavior, and knowing that we tend to be self-absorbed, it's one thing to know that. It's another thing to act in the moment to counter that. And it's always in the moment that it's so hard. It's easy to talk about it now in the abstract, but in the moment, those things are, as you say, they're human nature. They're hard not to do. Well, I agree with you. And that's a very good point. I'm not expecting people to be superhuman to go to suddenly move outside their nature.

In the moment, you are going to react with your emotions. What's critical is what happens the next day. Are you able to take a step back and realize that you overreacted? Can you begin to analyze yourself? Are you the type of person when something goes wrong where you simply blame other people and point fingers and say, oh, it wasn't my fault? Or are you going to look at yourself and realize that maybe you played a part in this?

I know you talk about social media and how social media and human nature are kind of oil and water in some respects, that social media can bring out the worst human nature. It plays into the worst aspects of our nature. So for instance, envy. Now envy is a very strange phenomenon because nobody will ever admit to feeling envious because it basically is an admission that you feel inferior to another person and that you envy them. So when we feel envy, and we all feel it, it's very natural and very human, we tend to find other reasons for it. We tend to justify that perhaps that other person is a bad person,

and that's why we feel some negative emotions about them. So envy is extremely embedded in our nature, and what it stems from is the fact that we are constantly comparing ourselves to other people. If you look at yourself during the course of a day, you're constantly thinking about other people. Do they have more? Are they getting more attention? Is my book selling as many copies as that guy? Is my podcast as popular as this person? And social media feeds this very deep and sometimes dark aspect of human

nature. On Facebook, you're continually aware of what other people are doing and how wonderful their vacations are and how great their family is and how many positive, amazing things are happening in their life. Of course, they're not posting about usually about all the bad things that are happening or about all their depressing moments. So you're getting this sense of the false sense that other people are doing great things. And it stirs up and stokes that envy that people feel. And there's studies that are being done about young people who spend a lot of time on social media and how this is an extremely dangerous emotion for people. It creates deep feelings of insecurity. So that's one aspect.

The other aspect is our tribal tendencies. I have a chapter on conformity and how, as social animals, we're not aware of how deeply, deeply we are influenced by other people, not on a conscious level, but unconsciously, by their moods, etc. And we tend to become very tribal. The tribal instinct in humans goes back hundreds of thousands of years. We tend to see people who are of our tribe as good and decent and anybody outside as dark and evil as the other. And social media creates extremely, extremely rabid and tight-knit tribes where you can

find people, like an echo chamber of people who believe exactly what you believe and who raise the heat volume up. And you can become extremely angry and aggressive by just falling into this tunnel of like-minded people and lose a sense of reality. It becomes distorting. So those are two aspects of it. Another one I would point out is that I maintain that we humans are aggressive by nature. I don't mean that we're violent, but that we have aggressive tendencies. And on the internet, where you're anonymous, where people don't see you, you can be a bully and you can let out all of those aggressive impulses and not really pay a price for it. If you said half the things you said on social media to somebody's face, you wouldn't live very long or you would have a very tough time in life.

But on the internet, you can get away with it. People who listen to Something You Should Know are curious about the world, looking to hear new ideas and perspectives. So, I want to tell you about a podcast that is full of new ideas and perspectives, and one I've started listening to, called Intelligence Squared. It's the podcast where great minds meet. Listen in for some great talks on science, tech, politics, creativity, wellness, and a lot more. A couple of recent examples, Mustafa Suleiman, the CEO of Microsoft AI, discussing the future of technology. That's pretty cool.

And writer, podcaster, and filmmaker John Ronson discussing the rise of conspiracies and culture wars. Intelligence Squared is the kind of podcast that gets you thinking a little more openly about the important conversations going on today. Being curious, you're probably just the type of person Intelligence Squared is meant for. Check out Intelligence Squared wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Jennifer, a founder of the Go Kid Go Network. At Go Kid Go, putting kids first is at the heart of every show that we produce. That's why we're so

excited to introduce a brand new show to our network called The Search for the Silver Lining, a fantasy adventure series about a spirited young girl named Isla who time travels to the mythical land of Camelot. Look for The Search for the Silver Lining on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcasts. Robert Green is my guest, and he is author of the book.

And this is one big book. It's kind of like almost like a dictionary. It is a fascinating book called The Laws of Human Nature. So, Robert, talk about defensiveness. Because when I saw that, I thought, you know, that's something that I think gets in the way of, for a lot of people, because we seem to default to that when we do get defensive. I want you to look at this as a kind of a game, in that the people you want to influence, and you're always looking to influence people, that they are naturally

defensive. They are naturally absorbed with their own problems and concerns. And so I want you to realize that that's your default position, as you mentioned it. But more important is to realize that the people around you are naturally like this. They don't want to hear what you have to say. They don't want to believe your ideas. They don't want to change their own opinions. They don't want to buy your product. So you have to lower that resistance. You have to feel like it's a constant game.

It's a strategy that you must evolve in each situation. People have walls that they have put up against you, and your job is to lower them. And I maintain the main way to lower people's defenses is to understand that they have an opinion about themselves, what I call a self-opinion. They see themselves as basically good, basically intelligent, basically independent and autonomous. Now, this self-opinion could be unrealistic, but basically everybody has those kind of universal beliefs. And if you can validate them,

if you can make them feel comfortable about themselves, instead of challenging them who they are and making them feel insecure, if you can make them feel comforted and validated, and if you can recognize the good qualities that are in most people, then they're going to be less defensive when you approach them with something that you need. So that's sort of how I approach this from a human nature point of view. And I think everyone has in their life people who they do want to talk to. There is no wall. There is no defensiveness. And that's because those people have done exactly what you just described.

They validate. They speak in a way that makes it sound as if they're interested in what you have to say, that you have something to contribute. And that lowers the defenses. Yeah, I mean, look at the paradigm for this is when you fall in love, that defensiveness falls down. Suddenly you open yourself up to other people, the other person in a're making you feel like you are worthy of attention. And so you lower your defenses. You might feel the same way among friends, because they're not challenging who you are, and they've accepted you. And so you lower your defenses. And as you say, there are people, we feel that around, and it's what, you know, causes us to be social and want to associate with certain people. You want to be that person.

If you want to influence your boss or your colleagues, you have to think in those terms. I was somewhat surprised to see short-sightedness as one of your laws of human nature that you described, because I've never thought of short-sightedness as human nature. It's more of a situational, episodic thing, but not human nature. Episodic meaning what? You know, it happens to some people sometimes, but it's not a law of nature, human nature.

Oh, I disagree with you on that sense. I know you do. That's why I want to hear it. It's the animal part of our nature. We respond to what we see immediately before our eyes. We react to what is happening right in front of us. It's extremely difficult and very unnatural for the human being to separate him or herself from immediate circumstances and look and see from a distance what is actually going on. Today we see it in our politics, where people are constantly reacting to the latest thing that comes up in the news cycle. It's very hard for us to think in the long term, to think towards the future.

I've been on the board of directors of a publicly traded company. And I can tell you that these extremely pragmatic business people who are also on the board lack this ability. All they could think of was the quarterly report and how shareholders would respond. It's very difficult to think long term and to have a vision and to execute that vision. I think even the wisest person among us, even the calmest, the most Gandhi-like person cannot help but get caught up in what is happening immediately around us. I think it's extremely human to get wrapped up in what is right in front of you. And so by being aware of that, you can begin to try and work in the opposite direction. And I think everybody can

benefit from this. The key is, do you realize that this short side and this irrationality, these emotions that are governing you, they are making you miserable, they're ruining your life, they're making it hard for you to achieve things. If you can be aware of that, if you can think like that, then you will be motivated to begin to try and change that dynamic. Talk about the law of fickleness, because again, I wouldn't think of fickleness necessarily as human nature, but when you stop and think about it, yeah, it is. We tend to think of ourselves as we simplify who we are.

And in fact, the emotions that we feel are never simple. We never feel simply love. Our emotions are always ambivalent. They're mixed with resentment, with hatred, with desire for possession, for aggression. And these emotions are constantly changing. They're in a state of flux. We might feel something for a few hours, and a few hours later, it's completely different. So this fickleness is extremely dangerous because people are judging you by what you've done for them lately.

Their loyalty to you is thin. If you slip up, if you do something wrong, if you say something stupid, you see on social media how people are absolutely grilled for the slightest foible in social media. And so people want to turn against those in authority, and some of that comes from deep levels of resentment. I trace this back to the tendency in ancient times where the king was continually being sacrificed by those in the tribe. They would kill him and then replace him with someone younger. People feel threatened by those in authority, and they also feel somewhat intimidated.

And so you think that your employees or the people that you're leading like you, and they're smiling and they're very charming, et cetera, but that loyalty that they have to you is actually paper thin and it will turn on a dime. And you need to be able to be aware of that and to counteract it by creating what I call a sense of authority where people respect you and believe in you and want to follow you. And so if you slip up, if you do something wrong, which is inevitable, they will stay reasonably loyal to you. I don't have much faith in long-term loyalty in people

because I don't think the human being is very capable of long-term loyalty. But you will have more room to maneuver if you've created this air of authority. And how do you do that? Basically, if you make people feel like they're part of a cause that you are a leader of, and that it's not about you and your personality, but about something greater, they feel excited and they want to join. If they see that you are a leader who's out in front, who backs up what he or she says, that you're working as hard as everyone else, that you're taking sacrifices,

people are much less likely to feel envy and resentment towards you. So there are many ways to counteract this fickleness. But generally realize that people's emotions are much more elusive and much more fickle than you think, and never take their loyalty for granted. If human nature is human nature, then why work so hard to work against it? Why not just let human nature take its course? We are naturally people who don't want to work very hard. We have to develop as

children later in life a sense of discipline. We have to develop a work ethic. And in developing a work ethic, we're working against our natural tendencies to always take the path of least resistance. And in working against that, we become great. We achieve something great. So pushing against human nature allows us to kind of excel and to improve ourselves. And that's sort of my point of view. I'm not like Steven Pinker, who thinks that we have our better angels and that we're evolving into some greater kind of species. I think that's a lot of nonsense. We have always been aggressive, we have always had violent tendencies, etc. We are not improving as a species as a whole, but as individuals we have incredible potential to improve and to actually realize those better natures that he talks about. Well, there is no topic that is more universal to human beings than human nature, and it's really interesting to hear your insight into it. Appreciate your time. My guest has been Robert Green. He is author of the book, The Laws of Human Nature. There's a link to his book in the show notes. Thanks for being here, Robert. Well, thank you very much, Mike. I really enjoyed it. Since I host a podcast, it's pretty common for me to be asked to recommend a podcast.

And I tell people, if you like something you should know, you're going to like The Jordan Harbinger Show. Every episode is a conversation with a fascinating guest. Of course, a lot of podcasts are conversations with guests, but Jordan does it better than most. Recently, he had a fascinating conversation with a British woman who was recruited and radicalized by ISIS and went to prison for three years. She now works to raise awareness on this issue. It's a great conversation. And he spoke with Dr. Sarah Hill about how taking birth control not only prevents pregnancy, it can influence a woman's partner preferences, career choices, and overall behavior due to the hormonal changes it causes.

Apple named The Jordan Harbinger Show one of the best podcasts a few years back, and in a nutshell, the show is aimed at making you a better, more informed critical thinker. Check out The Jordan Harbinger Show. There's so much for you in this podcast. The Jordan Harbinger Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. Join me, Megan Rinks. And me, Melissa Demonts, for Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong? Each week, we deliver four fun-filled shows. In Don't Blame Me, we tackle our listeners' dilemmas with hilariously honest advice. Then we have But Am I Wrong, which is for the listeners that didn't take our advice.

Plus, we share our hot takes on current events. Then tune in to see you next Tuesday for our listener poll results from But Am I Wrong. And finally, wrap up your week with Fisting Friday, where we catch up and talk all things pop culture. Listen to Don't Blame Me, But Am I Wrong on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday. Recycling. It's a great idea. Everyone benefits. It's all winners and no losers. What could be more benign and more of a point of agreement for everyone than recycling?

Well, not so fast. Recycling is a bit more complicated than a lot of people realize. While the intentions of recycling are great, in many ways the system is inefficient. A lot of what you think you recycle likely ends up in a landfill anyway. A lot of the material gets contaminated and can't be recycled. And recycling only works when there's someone at the end of the line who wants to buy that recycled material, which is not always the case. Our biggest customer for recycled goods, China, recently said no more. To help uncomplicate the topic of recycling and offer some advice on how we can all help the process is Beth Porter. She's a recycling expert who helps businesses and households be more sustainable, and she's

author of the book Reduce, Reuse, Reimagine, Sorting Out the Recycling System. Hi Beth, welcome. Hello, thank you so much for having me. So if you were going to issue your report card on the way recycling works in this country, what do you say? How are we doing? Well right now we're actually at a pretty crucial crossroads. For the last few decades we've developed a lot of enthusiasm around recycling. And I think, you know, the majority of Americans, about 94 percent, value recycling and think that it's an important issue. But the challenge of where we are now is we know recycling is important, but we're not quite sure how to do it correctly. So what we're seeing is a skyrocketing level of contamination in our recyclables, which makes them poor quality and not useful for manufacturing new products, which is the end goal for recycling. We want to displace

the need for new material use. So right now is a really important time to increase education and awareness about recycling because we're starting to see a lot of damaging effects to the system from this rise in contamination over the past few years. I think in the back of everyone's mind when they're sorting their recyclables and then carrying them out to the curb, they're thinking, does this really make any difference? Does this really matter? And there have been articles in the New York Times and elsewhere saying that a lot of the recyclables end up in a landfill anyway, that in many cases new material is cheaper than buying recycled material, that the market for recycled material is drying up,

and this is a lot about making people feel good as if they're doing something, but in reality, it's not much. A question I always encourage folks to look into whenever they see an article, an opinion editorial, I believe, that have been shared in the New York Times. Who's writing this article? What sources are they using? Because recycling does work. The problem is that we have some repairing to do to the ultimate system. Recycling makes sense. We take a material, we use it for something else, we continue the lifespan of an object, and it reduces our impacts on the environment and communities and the climate. That's a no-brainer.

All of the studies show that using recycled materials reduces emissions and energy climate. That's a no-brainer. All of the studies show that using recycled materials reduces emissions and energy use. So recycling itself is, I think, essential, and I think the data show that. The challenge is that we have a lot of disconnected programs. So all of our recycling programs, a lot of them have differing rules. A lot of them operate in different ways. Some communities you have to sort, some you don't. So when people engage with this, there's a lot of confusion. And that confusion is where I think the skepticism starts. When people don't understand a system, they're skeptical of if it really works.

Where is this stuff going? What's happening to it? We want to see an ROI for our time investment spent on recycling. And I think people care about what happens to their recyclables. But if there's a lot of unknowns and a lot of mystery, I think that people get very skeptical and start to wonder if it's really worthwhile. And yes, there is a demand for recycled content, but there needs to be more. And we can steer that demand by choosing products that not just have the little recycled, you know, the three arrow label on it, but actually say this is made with 30% recycled content. This is made with 50% recycled content, looking for those specific signals to show that the materials are being used in new

products, because that is how we drive that demand. But it is true that a lot of things that people recycle in all these bins still end up in a landfill. A lot of it does. The thing is that sometimes people are throwing things in a landfill that are recyclable. An example is that some landfills will see 75% of what's coming in could be recyclable. So they'll try to pull it out of the stream, reroute it to the recycling facility, but that's very labor intensive. That costs a lot of time and money for folks to do that. So we're actually seeing a lot of the things that could be recycled going to the landfill. But there are some cases where people will see, they'll observe multiple bags being put in the same truck. And they'll get suspicious and say, well, my recycling just got put in the truck with my trash and what's going on here.

And it really just depends on how much your municipality is communicating with the residents of how their recycling program works. Some are taken to a transfer facility where they're sorted out. Some communities have other processes. So I think a lot of the frustration and confusion people feel is from seeing something happening on their street, but not knowing what's going on. But there's also cases of waivers being given where some waste companies send their recyclables to a landfill. Sure, yes, absolutely. So people have gone through the motions of sorting all this stuff out for nothing. What needs to happen is that people need to try to hold other stakeholders accountable.

And because recycling is a complex system, there are a lot of stakeholders. There's not just us, the individuals and the trucks that collect it. There's the elected officials who are signing the contracts with these haulers, with sorting facilities. And it's important to make sure that we are expressing demand on all those levels that we want recycling, and we want it done right, we want it done well, and we want to have recycled materials to use in our new products. So we can do a lot, and that's the best we can do, is to try and demand that this is happening and to demand accountability.

I think people also wonder, if I have a piece of aluminum foil and I burnt some cheese on it and I put it in the recycle, what happens to that? It's got food on it, so it can't be turned, it's not all aluminum anymore, it's got cheese on it, so does it just get tossed out? Yes, absolutely. That's the contamination issue that we're talking about. So when people think, oh, I'm recycling this, I'm recycling that, it's highly possible that some of their materials, a big chunk of them are rerouted to a landfill because they've been recycled improperly. We can't do anything with this material because it's coated in food, it's saturated with

water, there's broken glass. So there are a lot of ways that we at our homes can reduce contamination from the start. So making sure that our items are clean, empty, and dry before we put them in the recycling bin. And if you're out in public and you have an item that's coated in food and you know it could be recycled, but you don't have a way to rinse it out or clean it off, it is actually better to just throw it in the trash can if you can't take it home where you can rinse it off and recycle it there. Really? Because I thought that this went through some big process where it all got rinsed off and cleaned up and then sort it out. Each material goes through its own specific process. So the sorting actually happens first. So we're seeing a rise. Most communities now that have curbside recycling use single stream where you put all your recyclables in one bin. So the problem there occurs if you put, you know, a plastic container with a bit of orange juice and that orange juice seeps out onto your newspaper and then that saturates the newspaper. And it's not just sitting in your bin. You know, it's going into the truck. It's going to the facility. So there are a lot of opportunities where we can have contamination occur.

And then it goes through the sorting process. And then once the materials are baled, they are taken to specific processing facilities because they all have different steps that need to be taken to, as you said, exactly, clean up the recyclables, break them down to kind of their raw materials so they can be used in new production. But there's also the issue of people putting in things that are not recyclable. We look at an item and say, you know, this has plastic in it. My recycling facility takes plastic. I should just toss it in. It's called wish cycling. And we want so badly for all of our things to be recyclable. So we put them in the bin and just hope it sorts out. But the challenge is that this hope of just putting it in the bin can cause a lot of problems. We see people put in sneakers, dirty diapers, garden hoses, Christmas lights, all sorts

of things that can't be sorted well through the mechanics and the system where our recyclables are taken. So it can cause a lot of problems. One flimsy garbage bag is in fact recyclable, but it can get caught in the machines at our sorting facilities and shut down a whole facility for a certain amount of time. So those aren't recyclable through your curbside program. So a big important thing that people really need to know and really need to try to do is to know what their local rules are and not try to add in more things that are outside of what their local facility can take. So the idea of single stream recycling where everything gets thrown in one bin, which we

don't have where I live, we have to sort things. But I assume that's to help encourage compliance, that if people don't have where I live. We have to sort things. But I assume that's to help encourage compliance, that if people don't have to sort everything, they're more likely to do it. But if it sabotages itself, what good is that? I completely agree with you, Mike. Yes, we saw a rise in single stream recycling to increase participation. And this happened in the 90s, I believe the first single stream program came out of California. And it did increase participation. But the problem is, it also increased contamination. And so it's very clear now, and a lot of communities are second guessing the switch to single stream, and some have even considered moving back to a sorting

method, because they're seeing that it's not working. And I think if we had more communities reporting on their contamination rates rather than just their recycling rates, the recycling rate being, this is how much stuff we put through the system that didn't go to a landfill. We also need to know how much of that stuff is actually being sold and used, because that's where we see significant environmental benefits. Only if there's someone to buy it. And there's been a lot written about how the market for recycled material has dried up, and that many companies would rather purchase new, in some cases new material is cheaper than recycled material, and that unless you have a customer, doesn't the whole thing

collapse? We do absolutely need end markets for these recycled materials and end buyers. And for a long time, one of our main end buyers has actually been China. We've been selling about a third of our recyclables overseas because there was more demand overseas, and half of that has been going to China. However, now China says that they no longer want contaminated recyclables. China is trying to bolster its own recycling system and has essentially put a ban on our recycled materials. So now in the United States, we're seeing exactly what you've just mentioned, which is an increase in supply, but the demand is not yet there. However,

this year alone, with the concern and outcry from individuals and organizations about plastics in the ocean and material waste, we're actually seeing a number of companies stepping up and putting out new requirements to use a minimum content of recycled materials for their products. So that's in direct reaction to this serious outcry that we're seeing from individuals. And so I think that by voicing that demand and saying you want the companies you support to use recycled materials and pushing that, it really does have a significant influence. What about the argument that the environmental cost of recycling makes this not worthwhile? That you send trucks out that are spewing out emissions, you're operating plants that are spewing out emissions, and that the net sum is zero? Well, there have actually been lifecycle assessments done to show that the transportation required for recycled

materials does not equal out to the impacts done by new material extraction and production. So I absolutely sympathize and understand that perception and the thought that, you know, we have all these trucks going around and that's got to add up to something. And it certainly does, but it does not equal the impacts we're seeing from mining activities, from deforestation, from landfills, from incinerators. It does not net out to zero. So we are seeing still larger benefits from using recycled materials. One of the arguments for recycling has always been that if we just throw everything away, we're going to run out of room to put all the trash.

But in that New York Times opinion article that was also republished in Investors Business Daily, I think, the analysis was that that's a bogus argument, that in this country, all of the stuff Americans throw away for the next thousand years would fit into one-tenth of one percent of land that is available for grazing in the United States. And I remember interviewing someone a while back who said that if we stopped recycling, you'd hardly notice that the amount of recycled household waste is relatively small, and that the real problem in landfills, if you want to make the argument that we're going to run out of landfill space, the real problem is construction and demolition debris,

that that is what fills up landfills, not household garbage. Yeah, I think I'm thinking that maybe what this person is referring to is an often quoted 97-3 comparison, which is that only 3% of all the waste we generate in this country is from residential waste. But the challenge with that particular statistic is it is from, that's data from over 30 years ago. Okay, so there has been an increase in consumption over time. And it also references water waste from industries. So the 97% of waste that's coming from industries is self-reported by these industries, and everyone measures waste differently. So oftentimes, they're including

wastewater that is actually treated and processed separately than the solid waste from a facility. So I think that's an important distinction, which is how we measure waste, how we talk about waste, how we set goals around waste. But I completely agree that we can't just put all of the blame and, I guess, duty on individuals and residents to tackle this. Because the companies that are producing these products, as well as manufacturers and construction sites, exactly what you just referenced, everyone has a role to fill in reducing our waste as a society. I think a lot of people listening to this conversation will be surprised to hear that recycling is not all roses and sunshine and unicorns. We've been told and we've come to believe that recycling is pure and wonderful and that you're crazy if you criticize it, but in fact recycling does have critics, the system is flawed, and it remains that burying trash is cheaper than recycling. And if we're going to recycle

and there's no one to buy it, then what's the point? Yeah, I think you're touching on a really important point here, which is this moral imperative to recycle. And that can drive people to shame others who aren't recycling rather than approach it with a curiosity of, well, why don't you recycle? You know, understanding their thinking behind that. Yeah, like what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? You don't recycle. And yeah, that it's a moral thing rather than, well, go ahead. I interrupted you. Go ahead. No, no, no, no, not at all. And I absolutely agree with this point.

And I do think that it's counterproductive in many ways because we tend to shame people who don't engage in particular activities we deem to be sustainable or good. It makes it more about our own frustration with someone not doing something than it does about helping someone understand the benefits of engaging with

an activity and hearing out why they're confused or frustrated or skeptical of something. If they feel enthusiastic about recycling and excited about it and they want other people to engage with the system, there are ways we need to do that that are respectful of the fact that other people have probably put thought into this. They have questions. There's concern about, is it working? Is it worth it? All of these really important questions that we need to delve into. And I think we can approach the conversation in ways that respect that someone may have thought about these things rather than just assume they're a horrible person for not doing

the thing that we think they should do. Well, it's really interesting, and you certainly know your way around the topic of recycling. And I like the fact that this conversation was not all sunshine, roses, and unicorns, that I think people really need to understand all aspects of recycling and the problems with it so that the whole idea can move forward in the right way and that everybody understands what's really going on, and you've explained it really well. My guest has been Beth Porter. She is author of the book Reduce, Reuse, Reimagine,

Sorting Out the Recycling System. And you will find a link to her book at Amazon in the show notes for this episode. Thanks, Beth. Thank you so much for the opportunity, Mike. Who doesn't love a good grilled cheese sandwich? I remember my mother used to make grilled cheese sandwiches and Campbell's tomato soup on a rainy day, and there was nothing better. But there is some science to making the perfect grilled cheese sandwich.

You need to have gooey, stretchy cheese between two pieces of perfectly buttered and grilled bread. And it starts with that perfect cheese. Without going into a long scientific explanation, you need a cheese with the right pH level, somewhere between 5.3 and 5.5. Examples of the best cheeses for a grilled cheese sandwich are Gouda, Gruyere, and Manchego. If you prefer cheddar cheese in your grilled cheese sandwich, you should go with mild cheddar because it will have the right texture. Sharp cheddar cheese doesn't really work that well in a grilled cheese sandwich. And what about those slices of American cheese?

Well, that's actually two cheeses combined and processed to be mild and melty. And American cheese actually makes an excellent grilled cheese sandwich. That's the podcast today. I'm Mike Carruthers. I appreciate you listening to Something You Should Know. Do you love Disney? Do you love top 10 lists? Then you are going to love our hit podcast, Disney Countdown. I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial. And I'm the Dapper Danielle. On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney. The parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore. There is nothing we don't cover on our show. We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed.

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